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Old    lakeside5_10            06-11-2008, 12:21 PM Reply   
I need to know were to get and what to get as in bagging equipment .


ok , i am ready to vac. bag the project phlaunder board back together, i had to cut out the delam , but i would like to reuse it because of the artwork that is stuck to it , the section is flat so i thought that i could put epoxy mix on the core then the old glass and bag it back together. after that i would sand it then cover with another 6oz. of cloth.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-11-2008, 12:40 PM Reply   
Why don't you just use the poor man's vac bag. :-) Fill up a few polyethelene garbage bags with sand and place them on your your repair. :-) Does about the same thing.

If you want to bag the repair, you need some consumables:

A perforated peel ply and then breather material. The breather soaks up excess resin and can be as simple as paper towels, or as specialized as the specific material.

Airtech is the epitome of equipmet, tooling and supplies for bagging.

If you TRULY want to bag (and it is great fun) I'll point you to the stuff to get started, if all you want to do is fix this one delam, go the sandbag in a polyethelene garbage bag route.

Let me know?
Old    lakeside5_10            06-11-2008, 12:49 PM Reply   
i luv to have the right stuff for the job , and would start bagging if i had it , so please go on with this lesson sensei Jeff,
i already bought 10 vents off the link you gave me, i think i will bake each core then post vent and also add a vent on each board i build , the sun kills down here.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-11-2008, 1:20 PM Reply   
I hear 'ya better safe than sorry, especially with killer artwork.

Principally the vacuum just acts as a giant vise to clamp stuff together while it cures. JL had a great picture of a shaper bagging a board that shows some of the application for glassing.

The heart of the system is the pump itself.

For a single board at a time production system (non-infused), and for intro to bagging, I think the auto vac bagging system from ACP is top notch. The one feature that you'll find is the vacuum switch. What that does is cycle the system after it pulls a specific level of vacuum, saves your motor. All systems will leak some, and so this system will cut the power to the motor when it reaches the desired Hg level.

The supplies the include are junk, but the system itself is golden.

http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-vbs.htm

The system that is fully assembled and with the tank is the ticket.

Now, resin infusion is different from a standard wet layup only in the sense that you don't put the board and laminate in the bag wet, everything goes in dry, you pull and vacuum and arrange everthing and when you are satisfied, open a valve and the system pulls the resin in. IMO, for board building it's mostly a convience for the manufacturer rather than any significant increase in quality. Further, the Hg levels needed for infusion will typically crush our low density foam (it takes a bunch to suck resin up through a tube and into the bag).

This little system will pull 20 inches of Hg, you don't need more than 10 to laminate or build complex composites for boards.

I wouldn't invest in a heavy duty system - one that allows you to bag multiple boards at one time, just yet. In a full on production house, you could bag 5 boards at a time relatively easily. Also stay away from the infusion starter kits if you only plan to work with 2 pound or so foam.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-11-2008, 1:29 PM Reply   
Now comes the bag itself. There are two ways to do this. I am lazy. :-) So I buy tubing and cap off the ends with a snap seal. Again at ACP the sell 36" wide tube and quick lock seals. Have a few spare seals around, they are plastic and will break...typically

http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-vbes.htm

The bagging tube is good for several pulls, I have revamped my schedule and try for 4 pulls or a single board (start to finish) per bag. A fresh bag on your exterior lamination will keep it looking pretty. :-)

Another way to do this is with bagging film that you buy in rolls. Then use double sided bagging tape (it's like clay almost but sticks to EVERYTHING!!! :-) ) The film can then be stuck to rocker tables, or itself. My issue with this stuff is that it's more prone to leaking and chasing down a leak is almost impossible in a backyard environment...you just can't hear it!

The tubes with quick lock seals are easy and virtually leak proof, initially.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-11-2008, 1:34 PM Reply   
Connectors are next. If you get the system above, it will come with a connector. This is just a fitting that goes through the bag and allows the pump to evacuate the air out of the bag. The system above uses very small tubing and it isn't compatibale with production systems. Airtech has quick release conectors that look like those found on pneumatic tools. Again, probably overkill for a 1 board backyard environment. I would buy one extra connector they can be lost and when it happens, you'll have a board in the bag cooking :-) OR a production schedule that will get upset as you wait for the replacement.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-11-2008, 1:56 PM Reply   
I almost forgot! When you get super high tech you might want a guage on your bag, but I don't see it as necessary on a single board system

The three components above give you the basic system, now you'll want the consumable supplies.

There is a release film which goes up against the wet laminate - it's purpose is to prevent the resin from sticking to everything. Release film comes in all sorts of flavors, some for high heat (when molding), fluropolymer so that you get a shiny surface when you release the part and perforated film that allows the excess resin to be squished out and then pulled through the small holes in the film.

With a wet layup, it's probably easier to oversaturate and then pull out the excess, so I'd recommend starting with perforated release film. ACP has it, and so does Fiberglass supply, and I do believe Jamestown Distributors. If you have a bagging supply retail outlet in your area, go in and make friends with them, they typically get new sample products from distributors and most are good at allowing good customers to sample items.

I don't like rayon peel ply as it leaves a funny pattern in the resin, but one idea I had was to eliminate traction you could bag a textured surface on the top for an ultra lightweight/cheap board.

The last item you'll need is breather. This absorbs the excess resin from that will get pulled through the release film. There are many flavors of this also, the most common is a polyester fabric that looks like the stuffing from a pillow :-) You can also just use a bunch of paper towels strategically placed.
When you attach your fitting, you'll want to back it with some breather or those plastic bubble packaging wrap. It will allow air to escape and not stick to anything.

That's it! :-) It looks much harder than it is.

That should get you going, post up as you start your first bagging experiment.

I would recommend that your first test be something small - wet out and bag a 2 inch section of foam. For that you can use a sandwich bag for your vacuum bag. :-) It seals up perfect.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 9:41 AM Reply   
Jeff ,
the part # i think i need are
v-04s - auto vac 115v
v-12b2 - nylon tube bag 36" per yard
v-12d - 40" lock seal x2
v-20a - perforated release film *****
v-22 - breather cloth
v-31a - video

how wide does the perforated release film come in??

and did i leave out anything
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 9:51 AM Reply   
Only changes I would recommend:

v-12d - 40" lock seal x 3 have 1 spare
V-13A - connector 1 as a spare
v-22a - breather cloth

I believe that the perf release is either 60" wide or 30" wide, pretty standard. I want to say it's 30, but I just can't remember.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 10:03 AM Reply   
yea breather cloth per yard
perf release then is wide enough for our projects.

is it better to use too much breather cloth on top of the release film then too little
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 10:16 AM Reply   
The breather just absorbs excess resin, but it also goes between the laminate and the bag - which is providing the pressure. If you are building a composite part - say 1/8" dcell skin over a LD EPS core, you won't even use the perf. release or breather - there won't be any excess resin to soak up.

If you are bagging on an external layer of 'glass, you'll want that as smooth as possible, so a uniform surface all over the exposed laminate is what you'll want. If you have a seam where there is no breather - that will print thru to your underlying laminate. Can you say sand you butt off? :-)

Only use the consumables where it's needed and then cover it completely so that you have uniform pressure on the underlying laminate.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 10:45 AM Reply   
thanks ,
was your sub 4 ft. board able to float well , my 4.0 seems good for my weight of 170 and those 451 simitar fins are the bomb , lots of speed with them.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 11:23 AM Reply   
Yeah the scimitar's are killer fins, if a bit heavy. Futures has some clear hex fins out that are a similar shape and size, only much lighter, I can't seem to track them down though.

The 4 footer did float me fine. I remember having a conversation with Jerry Price about board thickness one time. He was noting that skimboard design was such that thickness wasn't the requirement that folks used to think - at least in terms of being able to surf, rail interaction was a different matter. It seems to be mostly a matter of surface area which can be affected by both length, width and bottom contours.

Like you are finding out, I think that 4' is a useable range for sub 180 pounders. I have a new board for Judy arriving that is 4'2" and even that is big for her.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 11:56 AM Reply   
arriving like , you are producing your next baby surfer , or someones foster child. hhehehe. i luv how my 4.0 feels and i can get fins out of water on it. i will try 3's on it after i fix it, but dont know if design will let me do it because of square rails??
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 12:08 PM Reply   
ok this is my final list for bagging


v-04s - auto vac 115v
v-12b3 - nylon tube bag 10 yrd
v-12d - 40" lock seal x4
v-20a - perforated release film 20 yrd
v-22a - breather cloth 20yrd
v-31a - video
v13a connector
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 12:10 PM Reply   
Too funny. Arriving via fedex :-) The surface three is a hard trick - it really is the holy grail for most folks. Most of the skimmers are hard rails all the way through the board and those rotate easily. I'm sure you'll be fine.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 12:27 PM Reply   
i installed a 3"x39" 12oz. cloth to act as a springboard stringer on the top deck at time of lam.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 12:43 PM Reply   
Yeah interesting concept. In the old days, Greg Loehr and his followers used to route out small lines along the rails and then laminate fin rope or tubes/rods in to achieve that same sort of effect. You'll have to post up your findings.
Old    lakeside5_10            06-12-2008, 12:51 PM Reply   
have you tried to install hollow carbon tubes for the center and rail stringers , i was thinking .500 od in a 1.500 thick core.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 1:41 PM Reply   
That's similar to the Surfboard Suspension System or Direct Drive 2.0 in Firewires. I thought about drilling out a shaft in a board so that interchangeable rods/tubes could be tried. It just became so complex and testing all the various diamaters, wall thicknesses, as well as, board thicknesses combined with the cost of carbon and it was all a bit overwhelming. With wood, I know that I can always just plane an extra 1/64" off to increase flex :-)

Shawn Ambrose is doing some unique things with carbon "stringers". Flexdrive I believe is his trade name for the construction. He's routing a perimeter around the rails and then also an X from the rail boxes thru the front foot out to the perimeter stringers. It looks very similar to the coremat and carbon that Vernor does.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-12-2008, 2:18 PM Reply   
Picture of the construction, note that the top doesn't have the stringer material visible, which makes me think it doesn't go through - the deck could be painted, but why?

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Old    lakeside5_10            06-14-2008, 9:29 AM Reply   
ok its ordered , got some film as well i plan to build a rocker table cause i seem to like the flat eps for a fast board.


Code Description Size / Other Price Q Line Total
V-04S AUTO-VAC Bagging System (115Volt) $450.00 1 $450.00
V-12B3 Nylon Bag Tube 36" (Over 10 Yds. / Per Yd.) Call for pricing on 1000' roll $3.00 10 $30.00
V-12D 40" Quick Lock Seal $12.00 4 $48.00
V-20A Perforated Release Film (Per Yd.) $2.80 20 $56.00
V-22A Breather Cloth 30" Wide (Per Yd.) $3.00 20 $60.00
V-31A Vacuum Bagging Techniques Video / DVD Format $19.95 1 $19.95
V-13A EZ-VAC Bag Connector $11.00 1 $11.00
V-11 Nylon Bagging Film 60" Wide (Per Yd.) $3.00 20 $60.00
V-12E Vac Bagging Sealant Tape 400 Temp. 25 Ft. yellow $7.50 2 $15.00
Sub-Total: $749.95 S/H: ** Total: $749.95
Old    lakeside5_10            06-25-2008, 4:51 AM Reply   
just came in, and on a test run fix

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