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Old    don (diddy666)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-08-2008, 1:25 PM Reply   
Jimmy 95.00
Harley 93.00
Ryan King 82.00
Steve Cahail 70.00
Old    E Johnson (ethan31)      Join Date: Jun 2007       06-08-2008, 2:26 PM Reply   
So jimmy won?
Old    don (diddy666)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-08-2008, 3:00 PM Reply   
yes
Old    E Johnson (ethan31)      Join Date: Jun 2007       06-08-2008, 3:07 PM Reply   
damnit
I wanted harley to win.

Nice job though jimmy!
Old    Luker (xbones)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-08-2008, 3:23 PM Reply   
Harley won his heat. He has simply listed winners scores from their respective heats.
Old    Randy Scagliotti (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-08-2008, 5:39 PM Reply   
The above is the finals and correct scores. Jimmy did a sweet H/S 900 off the double up.
Old    Luker (xbones)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-08-2008, 6:51 PM Reply   
My bad. Woke up at 4:30 for morning glass and I'm a little out of it :-)
Old    fred_bloggs            06-08-2008, 9:13 PM Reply   
Hey,
I heard Clifford won 4 out of 5 catorgories and was last in sliders, Jimmy won sliders and second in all other catorgories
Is this new system rewarding riders who win 4 out of 5 catorgories or as it seems there are scores within scores.
Maybe judges are still able to manipulate scores
Congratulations Jimmy,
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-08-2008, 9:31 PM Reply   
Or maybe Harley needs to slide better, ha ha.
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-08-2008, 9:37 PM Reply   
He seemed to misjudge his run and missed the transfer box in his first pass.If he had hit it he would have probably won.
Old    Randy Scagliotti (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-08-2008, 9:54 PM Reply   
Fred it was close for sure, but I had Jimmy winning. I think he won more then just sliders, spins for sure, B/S 540, 2 720's & H/S 900. The other rail master in the finals, 3rd place rider Ryan King..

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Old    fred_bloggs            06-09-2008, 4:27 AM Reply   
Didnt Clifford do hs7 ts7 bs5 bs7 double up
Old    fred_bloggs            06-09-2008, 4:45 AM Reply   
oh yeah,

apperently there were a few protests from the pro riders about the judging system in MN
maybe the aussies just dont have this new judging system quite right yet, what was wrong with the old format. yeah thats right we needed to see a better mix of tricks like some bs 180's into the flats and some big old hs5's from pro riders. There a little bit like doing tootsie rolls.
Funny that dean smith cant even make the top 10 rider here in the US but is able to beat Phillip Soven in Australia,
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       06-09-2008, 7:48 AM Reply   
Ryan King is Killing it right now!
Old    Nicholas Poulin (lfrider06)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-09-2008, 8:39 AM Reply   
ryan king is insane, great job man!!
Old    don (diddy666)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-09-2008, 9:28 AM Reply   
Nick Ryan is home 2morrow are u coming to ride?
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-09-2008, 9:32 AM Reply   
Wow fred... you just don't get it do you? do you even wakeboard?
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-09-2008, 9:37 AM Reply   
And I hope your not talking about the old old system that was created around the dawn of time... the sport changed from trick skiing a long time ago...
Old    fred_bloggs            06-09-2008, 1:04 PM Reply   
hey Rodney,

I dont see where there was any trick skiing in the old system. I understand there were quite a few protests with the new judging format.
Change is good for the sport, I understand that, if this new system is so good then why so many protests in MN Rodney. Do you even wakeboard, and if you get it then how does it all work Rodney if you are the expert on it.
Old    Nicholas Poulin (lfrider06)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-09-2008, 1:17 PM Reply   
i have to work tomorrow, but i might shoot up later after that, have ryan call me when he gets home
Old    TeamValdez (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-09-2008, 3:20 PM Reply   
The level of wakeboarding this year is crazy good! I think that is awesome.

Ryan King is a definate factor this year and in upcoming years. He is a good boy and a great rider!! It was great to see him on the podium (holding that HYPERLITE board!!)YAY!!
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-09-2008, 3:58 PM Reply   
we are getting off topic here... If you are so out of touch with the sport fred, and want to talk about it, then go start the judging format in a another forum... and I will happily explain it to you... There are always protests by the way... no more or less than previous years... Only 1 decision was changed so apparently the judging was pretty much bang on...

Sick riding Jimmy and Harley!!! Was pumped to be there to see it! Both rides would have podiumed on Pro... DOPE!
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-09-2008, 4:35 PM Reply   
Went to airport with Dean. Told me if it wasn't a head to head with Phillip he would not have won with the D.R.I.V.E scoring system. Sorry,but had to get that out.
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-09-2008, 5:52 PM Reply   
correct chris... again if this needs to be explained for the 100th time start a new forum...
Old    John Prizer (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-09-2008, 5:53 PM Reply   
Rodney - I am interested in learning more about the judging system. Is there any place online where it is explained? Is the system different for Junior Men and Pro Men?
Old    Randy Scagliotti (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-09-2008, 6:05 PM Reply   
Prowakeboardtour.com under offical rules, Jr mens went to this formate for the first time last weekend. System is good, it will take a little time for the riders & the judges to get it dieled in. Most of the riders like it.
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 5:20 AM Reply   
Nice try Rodney,

obviously you dont understand the format either.
Old    John Prizer (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-10-2008, 5:49 AM Reply   
Randy - I read the official rules about the new system and that helps, thanks.

Is there a similar explanation of the judging system for other divisions in WWA events?

I saw reference in the rules to the "traditional 3 judge WWA system."

Is this the system used for other divisions at WWA tournaments?

Is there an explanation of this system anywhere?

Thanks again for your help.
Old    GettingOlder (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       06-10-2008, 7:02 AM Reply   
I can explain it.

Popularity contest.
Who bought who the most beer the night prior.
Sponsor obligations.


Hope that helps.
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-10-2008, 8:04 AM Reply   
I can no longer find the 3 judge system on the WWA website. It was:

Technical Difficulty - difficulty of the tricks and run in total
Composition - linking tricks, flow,
Execution - smoothness, how big, overall apperance

There were also "protest" in this system, usually centered around were the tricks recorded properly, challenge of difficulty between tricks,
Old    TeamValdez (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-10-2008, 8:47 AM Reply   
So Magellen, you think Jimmy, Harly and Ryan King bought the most beer?? ok..THAT sounds right
Old    Randy Scagliotti (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-10-2008, 9:01 AM Reply   
^^^^^ Good one Robyn
Old    WS (lf23)      Join Date: Nov 2007       06-10-2008, 9:43 AM Reply   
As far as sliding goes, Ryan is probably one of the best in Jr. Men's. TS 90 on, 270 off as well as HS on transfer box. He's one of the reason's Harley got second, his sliding dropped Harley down to 3rd in sliding in finals. Harley won tech, but Jimmy won overall, rails, and spins.
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 9:52 AM Reply   
The reason Dean wouldn't have won if it wasn't head to head is because it is a set scoring system... again Fred, new forum if you dont understand... which you obviously dont...
Old    John Prizer (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-10-2008, 11:20 AM Reply   
Thanks George.

I have two boys in the boys division this year. We are working on run design and what to learn next. Is there any strategy for how to approach this to fit within the judging system best?

Or should I just bring beer?
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-10-2008, 12:14 PM Reply   
John, I've always heard to have a mix in every pass. Spin, Big Air (Raley/Glide Trick) Technical (Invert/Mobe exc.) Then go big, land clean, and stand-up. By boys division I assume your talking 11-13. To win at Nationals you will need all 3 categories above, Spins of at least 540 both heel and toe, at least 2 mobes, Tootsie, KGB are most common, Raley, Batwing or variants. Last year the winner had 720 spins in the boys with Tootsie, KGB, Moby Dick. Send me an email if you want to talk more.
Old    TeamValdez (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-10-2008, 12:20 PM Reply   
John:
Old    Josh (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-10-2008, 12:36 PM Reply   
john more parents should take have your mindset....
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 3:03 PM Reply   
Hi,

if the score between Jimmy and Clifford are any indication then Clifford must have won 4 out of 5 catogories 95 to 93. This system works great when it is head to head, you have a clear defined winner. You win a catagory or you lose a catagory. If you win 3 out of 5 you win overall. Now they have added score to each catagory, so you may win 4 out of 5 catagories and still be beaten.
My point is this system is still no better than the old system it can still be manipulated by judges.
Let me also clarify that I am not saying Jimmy didnt deserve to win either, I am using the fact that Jimmy and Clifford where very close in results and I had been told that Cliford won 4 out of 5 catagories.
For the record chris i happened to be in Australia at the time and watched the event where Dean beat Phillip what a joke. Watch the video and then tell me if Dean won all catogories. I dont think so.
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 4:09 PM Reply   
of course it can be manipulated!!! Its judged subjectively! Anything that is subjective can be manipulated! Surfing contests, skate, snowboard can all be manipulated! idiot...
Old    Doug (supradoug)      Join Date: Dec 2001       06-10-2008, 4:13 PM Reply   
John, asi learned from Robyn, Randy and Gordie your last sentence is absolutely correct.
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-10-2008, 4:22 PM Reply   
Fred, Nicola and I spent our last 3 hours in Minneapolis with Dean. We spoke about a whole range of topics at breakfast including the new judging system. He was the one that said to me had it not been head to head he would not have won. I do not want to get drawn into another spat on this thread. I am only passing on what I was told.This is not some outsiders opinion but from the guy that actually won the event.
Old    TeamValdez (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-10-2008, 4:42 PM Reply   
Yes, Doug, we all know that our kids are ALWAYS on the podium!!
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 6:16 PM Reply   
Hi Rodney,

no need to try and insult me becasue I have a good point, you could be a little more polite about it.
Old    Rodney (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 6:23 PM Reply   
a good point? any judging system is based on being subjective... so no... it wasnt a good point, and yes it was idiotic
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 8:00 PM Reply   
Rodney,

the point was that this system was meant to take away that factor that it could be manipulated.
This DRIVE system is fairer, no I dont believe this new format is fairer than the previous. So Rodney how is it that this new system is fairer and better. You seem to know so much about it but cant seem to offer any explanation as to why, other than telling me to start a new forum, nice one Rodney
Old    Sam Thomson (samthomson)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 9:48 PM Reply   
hey guys its harley

i won 4 out of 5 categories but got last in rails cause i rushed the transfer and screwed it up haha.
but o well next time i will just have to try harder on the rails.


and i was there for phillip and deans finals
and it was really close they both did the same on rails and the kicker counted as a rail so dean won on rails
and then dean won on spins because he did a giant method hs 5 and a slob ts 5 wich cancels of phils ts 7 and hs 3,
dean won overall impression because he went big .

and in head to head if you win 3 categories you automatically win.
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 10:30 PM Reply   
Harley, man you had a solid run in MN, I think there are a few people who are trying to work out this system.
Most people would have thought if you won 4 out of 5 categories you would also automatically win.

if the percantages are

Big Air Spins tech rails Overall
15% 22.5% 27.5% 20% 15%
that totals 100%
by that calculation then 4th place in rails is worth a value of 13.
So what was the value of 2nd place in each of the categories.
Does anyone know.
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-12-2008, 5:00 AM Reply   
Here is how I thought the scoring works.This is speculation on my part. Upload

If you look at the cummulative score, and compare the totals of all riders in each heat you will see they match very closely except for some rounding and averaging when there are ties.

If a rider gets 4th in every category they would receive 70 points.

The system allows for ties between 2 or more riders and averages the points. Look at all of the scores that have .25, .5, .75 values.

If this is true Harley could not have gotten 1st in all categories except rails and last in rails. That would have totaled 94 points. He recieved 93 points.

The 4th place rider received 70 points indicating he got 4th in every category.

The 3rd place rider received 82 points indicating he got 3rd in 4 categories and 2nd in one category.

Harley recieved 93 points. I believe he won 2 categories, tied one category, and got 3 in the last (spins) category.

Jimmy recieved 95 points. I believe he got 1st 2 categories, got 2nd in 2 categories, and tied 1 category.

I want to repeat that this is speculation on my part but I don't see how the totals of all the heats and scores could work any other way.
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-12-2008, 5:35 AM Reply   
I thought of another way the points could break down. The totals remain the same for each place.

It still would not change the above comments about Sundays finish.

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