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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Wakeboarding Discussion Archives > Archive through February 24, 2008

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Old    Niyazi (cyprus)      Join Date: Jan 2007       02-10-2008, 6:51 AM Reply   
Do you think wearing stiff boots such as 3DS and zues will decrease or increase your chances of having a knee related injury. For a rider who had experienced a knee problem previously, would you recommend a stiff or a soft binding?
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       02-10-2008, 8:59 AM Reply   
my knees aren't to good, I've done like two years of physical therapy, but never surgery...when i switched from Cells to Shanes my knees do feel better, but my ankles feel the difference on certain landings
Old    porter rockwell (rocketdogg)      Join Date: Oct 2006       02-10-2008, 9:06 AM Reply   
I had Shane's a few years back and they were devastating on my ankles. I loved the freedom, but I eventually just got beat up.

I don't really have a solid answer on the stiff versus soft as far as injuries, but snowboard setups are always a lot stiffer. I have had knee injuries with both soft and stiff wakeboard bindings, and also stiff snowboard setups.

One doctor told me just this last summer than he didn't care what I was using equipment wise, (including a brace) if you come down that wrong the force and speed involved is going to injure you one way or another.

That's all I got though. In reality stiff bindings really aren't that stiff, they break in.
Old    kyle (lfxstar)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-10-2008, 9:08 AM Reply   
I have ridden 3DS's since they were orange-->black-->closed toed black-->closed toe white-->atlas's and I have yet to find a binding with better high ankle support then these. They actually break in REALLY nice and aren't too stiff but because they are designed for ankle support they do put a little extra pressure on your knees. I have what i would unfortunately say are one bad left knee and one really bad right knee. Pretty sure i have a torn meniscus in the right and a bunch of scar tissue. I'm sure if i went to the doctor, the report wouldn't be good but I have yet to blow either knee out and I ride A LOT and ride pretty hard. The 3DS (now the Atlas) is an amazing binding, i don't think I could ever be happier with anything else on my feet. When I was in highschool I tore some ligaments in my ankle playing baseball and that is when I switched over to these bindings. I don't know what is worse, riding with ankle problems or knee problems but i can tell you that when my ankle was hurting, i would not ride, and if my knee was hurting i could throw on a brace and deal with it
Old    Hayes (hayes)      Join Date: Aug 2007       02-10-2008, 9:17 AM Reply   
I think that stiff boots are definitely worse on the knees. They keep you in a more upright position which is more prone to knee injuries. Also, I got some cells last year and injured my knee the first day.

On the downside, ankle injuries would probably happen more with less stiff bindings.
Old    Ewing (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       02-10-2008, 9:49 AM Reply   
Anyone that is wakeboarding and going big is bound to have joint issues whether it be ankle or knee.

If I were you I would be more worried about big fish then my knees.
Old    Michael O (2007_x2)      Join Date: May 2007       02-10-2008, 11:54 AM Reply   
i would have to say that stiff boots are better for your knees because when u land wierd with soft bindings like the roam or seven binding my ankles tend to more foward or back which puts more pressure on ur knees and puts them at a weird angle. its the same with snowboarding if ur boots arent tight enough your knees hurt. i think the losser your bindings are the more you are trying to correct the movement of your ankles/feet with your knees. if you are in a more upward stance with ankle support you have less ankle/foot movents so its less pressure on ur knees trying to correct your ankles/feet postionand angles

(Message edited by 2007_X-2 on February 10, 2008)
Old    kyle (lfxstar)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-10-2008, 1:34 PM Reply   
The problem with stiff boots mike is if you have a fall where ankle should turn as your knee is turning but your ankle stays stiff BOOM ACL MCL medial meniscus
Old    Niyazi (cyprus)      Join Date: Jan 2007       02-10-2008, 2:09 PM Reply   
I really wonder if there has ever been a scientific research published on this or a similar topic. I will do a little research and let you know if come across anything.
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 5:34 PM Reply   
its 50/50 i think... i had soft bindings and i recently sprained my ankle and i am out from riding for a while... i did ride one day last week even though i am not supposed to in my new slingshot jewel stiff bindings, and the support was way better but i started to feel tension on my knees... but id rather hurt my knee than my ankle...
Old    Terry (wakefarmer)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 9:03 PM Reply   
are you serious.......a knee injury is way more complex than an ankle injury.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       02-10-2008, 9:06 PM Reply   
Yeah maggie that maybe a bad choice on injury selection.
Old    Ben Ax (hawkeye7708)      Join Date: Feb 2007       02-10-2008, 9:26 PM Reply   
I tweaked my knee (and ankle) a few times when using less supportive bindings. I've found that since i've been riding stiffer bindings *knock on wood* in particular the 06 and 07 3DS (which i'm riding now) i havn't run into anywhere near the issues that i've had before.
Old    Matt B. (mxflyer281)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-10-2008, 9:32 PM Reply   
Idk I like stiff bindings I ride the new zues but i think like rocket said its going to happen if you fall a specific way. I mean wakeskaters still get knee injuries
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:05 PM Reply   
have you ever sprained an ankle... you cant walk or do anything for a while... at least with a knee you can DRIVE! and put your shoes on! and little things like that are not fun not being able to do!
Old    Terry (wakefarmer)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:09 PM Reply   
the recovery time for a ankle injury is way less than a knee injury, trust me you don't want a knee injury. it sometimes takes years of recovery and physio.
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:10 PM Reply   
i never said acl tear here
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       02-10-2008, 10:11 PM Reply   
i have two feet that i can drive with... i donno about everyone else

baha, just kidding maggie, its just that im not a pansy and never get hurt
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:12 PM Reply   
whats the average acl tear per person per knee?
Old    Kellan Scheiris (shavis)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-10-2008, 10:14 PM Reply   
Ill second that maggie...it was stupid hard to drive when i sprained my ankle...any pressure on it killed...Knee injuries suck more long term....but the ankle injury just screwed up my routine..
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:15 PM Reply   
thank you.. i understand you are out longer with a knee injury but it is a one time thing... this is my third sprain so i have been in therapy 5 times for 4-6 months each...
Old    Terry (wakefarmer)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-10-2008, 10:15 PM Reply   
the knee is just a more complex joint than your ankle, is what im saying. end of discussion......
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       02-10-2008, 10:15 PM Reply   
what the heal time on a ACL compared to a sprain
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-10-2008, 10:30 PM Reply   
I finally got to check out Murray & Byerly's boots this weekend and could not believe how stiff those things were. All I could picture was falling weird and havine my leg shorn in half leaving my foot/ankle/calf strapped in and me floating away with stumps, it was scary. I've always preferred a little more flexibility so I can flex out of a twisting akward crash. Anyone with experience in those vice grips?
Old    Clay (tahoeguy7)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-11-2008, 8:20 AM Reply   
I think that more support is better. Here is what Chad Sharpe had to say in a Wakeworld interview.

WW: Why are your bindings so stiff?
CS: I have always used a pretty stiff binding. I feel more comfortable when my binding is really supportive. I believe that a solid binding gives you more response and cuts down the chance of injuries. The less you are moving around, the less chance you are going to twist sprain or blow something. I have never had a knee or ankle injury and have always had stiff binders. I'm knocking on wood after that comment.
Old    Jesse Scheel (j_money)      Join Date: May 2006       02-11-2008, 8:29 AM Reply   
Chad Sharpe swears the reason he has never had knee problems is due to his high stiff backed bindings. I read that in one of his articles on this site. Would chad lie..... I doubt it. Look at the guys that wear 3ds and cells. do they have the knee problem like the guys wearing the freeer designs?
Old    Gerd F (freeznuphere)      Join Date: May 2007       02-11-2008, 8:50 AM Reply   
You guys are freakin me out. I'm thinking about getting into wakeboarding and then I read this thread...yikes
Might be a stupid idea, but has anyone ever thought of a binding that would release prior to some major injury?
Old    Clay (tahoeguy7)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-11-2008, 10:35 AM Reply   
Whenever I have a hard fall I almost always come out of my bindings.
Old    Brad (bstphen24)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-11-2008, 11:11 AM Reply   
It's not always the hard falls that injure people. In august I dislocated my knee, I landed a three on the transition and all of a sudden my knee was not supporting me. Injuries are going to happen if you push yourself or ride a lot, and I firmly believe that if you think you are going to get hurt, you will get hurt.
Old    Ryan P (waketx05)      Join Date: Feb 2008       02-11-2008, 11:28 AM Reply   
i have avoided most injuries due to steady training.. i run, walk, swim, and lift while maintaining a healthy lifestyle.. also .. stretching.. but eventually the injuries are gonna happen... its part of the sport.. if you wanna go big.. ur gonna fall..
Old     (okcrashhighlight)      Join Date: Feb 2008       02-11-2008, 3:15 PM Reply   
Don't let this thread scare you out of Wake Boarding. People get hurt in all sports. Basketball, you get ankles like crazy. And knee's.
Baseball, Knee's, shoulders, etc. Tennis, elbows, knee's. Any sport has its risk. If there were no risk, then it would not be called sport. Give it a try and have fun with it. That is all the reason you need to at least give it a shot.



(Message edited by okcrashhighlight on February 11, 2008)
Old    Irene Gaz (clearlakeirene)      Join Date: Jun 2007       02-11-2008, 4:10 PM Reply   
Ryan hit the nail on the head.
With any injury, afterwards the ligaments and tendons are weaker and more prone to repeat injury. Sometimes an injury is bad enough that you have to quit a given sport, but most of the time, especially with non-surgical grade 1 and 2 sprains of the knee or ankle the key is rehab, getting back to sport slowly, and then keeping up you injury specific rehab program the rest of your life to keep that area strong and supported. If you rehab, and go back to a high impact sport without continuing to keep the joint strong you will most likely injury it again.

As for the question this began with, any time you restrict one joint (like having very stiff bindings) you make the next joint up the chain (your knee) have to take up the extra motion, and this can lead to more knee injuries from a twisting motion, because the ankle can't take up any of the rotation with the stiff bindings. Very loose ones aren't good either because they allow too much motion and not enough stability, so you really have to find a happy medium of supportive without being too restrictive.

As for the ACL or knee injury vs. ankle injury--One is not worst than the other, it depends on the severity of the injury. However, the knee is a much less stable joint, so a ligament injury to the knee can be much harder to deal with on a day to day basis with normal daily and work/play activities. It is more likely to give out if the knee is twisted or if you step funny, and it is also more likely to need surgery and has more "parts" to harm. It is also where most of the shock absorbtion takes place in any activity.

The ability to wakeboard should be more affected by a knee injury than an ankle injury of the same severity because the ankle is semi-supported by the bindings, and because with the position of riding and landing in wakeboarding the knee takes alot of shock absorbtion.
There is the longest answer. But I am a Physical Therapist and Athletic Trainer so my answer has a medical basis. Hope it helps :-)
Old    mk (maggiewss)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-11-2008, 5:21 PM Reply   
very well said... (this isnt me trying to be nice its just a fact)
Old    Jos (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       02-11-2008, 5:56 PM Reply   
"Don't let this thread scare you out of Wake Boarding."

I fully agree. I've got steel anchors in my shoulder that held the ligaments on so they could anchor themselves when I had surgery after I popped it 5 times in a year (I tore most of/all the anterior ligaments off the bone at some stage, shallow shoulder sockets runs in my family too) so I don't play Rugby or Aussie Rules any more, but I still ride every chance I can get.

I like my bindings loose, if I even do up the laces a little bit I get mean cramps in my feet after a couple of runs. They're pretty tight on my foot but I like them loose around the ankle. I have jumped straight out of them once or twice trying a tantrum though.

I have a dodgy right knee as well but I don't worry about it too much, if something bad happens, it happens. I stepped on a hose connection while I was carrying a basket loaded with firewood a couple of years ago, when it rolled forward under my foot my knee bent backwards, not good. I try to keep my knees bent the right way at all times now

Sometimes landing hard switch on that knee (I ride goofy) gives it a little tweak, but I still love wakeboarding so I'll still ride until I can't do it anymore.
Old    TBP (chadgreg)      Join Date: Feb 2008       02-12-2008, 4:07 PM Reply   
I had a bad motorcycle accident and broke my right leg in 2 places I have a titanium rod going from my knee to my ankle (inside the bone) also shattered my left kneecap (which is now held together with titanium screws and wire. Also broke both bones in my right arm which are both plated and screwed!!

Anyways I still wakeboard and wakeskate but my biggest issue is the shattered kneecap and the reduction in my range of motion!
KEEP THOSE KNEES HEALTHY!Upload
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Old    David Miller (otown_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2007       02-12-2008, 4:58 PM Reply   
Nice photo's!
Old    kyle (lfxstar)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-12-2008, 6:18 PM Reply   
knee injuries and ankle injuries both suck!! one is not worse than the other. I can say from personal experience tearing ligaments in my ankle that even though i was "healed" it was the worst recurring injury ever. I put up with my knee throbbing when i ride but the ankle i couldn't ride at all

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