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Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-24-2007, 12:38 AM Reply   
I have a couple of questions regarding battery isolation set ups...

For reference, refer to the following diagrams:

Hellroaring Battery Isolation-Simple

Duo-Charge Battery Isolation

In both cases, they show the Alternator + going to the House/Aux Batt, then the swtich device between the House/Aux and Start battery. In other words, the House battery is prioritized -> the start battery only gets charged after the House/Aux is topped off.

1. For sport boat applications (1000W+ RMS Stereo...), shouldn't the battery priority should be reversed?

2. Also, they show the start battery doing nothing but starting, and the House/Aux battery carrying EVERYTHIN else. This is also different that I want to do. Don't I want the House/Aux Batt carrying nothing but Stereo (and maybe some Aux lights at some point), and the Start Battery running the normal stuff on the boat like it does now.

3. With the set up I assume, the Duo Charge is out, since it only passes 30A. As such, I a settling on the the Hellroaring device with remote switch.

4. FYI...I plan on using (2) 4D AGMs for the house (400 Ah total) and (1) #24 AGM for the starter (80Ah).

5. Boat is a 2000 Sanger V210 Black Scorpion Engine.

6. Stereo System Plan:
Zapco 750.2->Pair NVS Addiction Tower
Zapco 360.4->4 Polk MMC Cabin Speakers
Zapco 1100.1 or Kicker ZX1500.1->Kicker L5 or L7

7. Plan on upgrading the Alt to something like a Balmar 6 Series with a MaxCharge Regulator. Does anyone know how hard it is to adapt one of those Alts to a Mecruiser Black Scorp Engine? The largest single belt Amp is 110A. Above that (135A and 160A) Balmer goes to dual belt. Can I get away with 110 and a single belt. I dont want to have to chage all the pulleys to dual belt.

8. I also plan on installing a smart charger I can hook 115AC to charge the batteries. For this, I was looking at a ProTech1240iPlus. 1240iPlus I will switch the Hellroaring so the batteries are separate when I charge. The 1240iPlus has a balance feature which allows it to smart charge 2 separate battery banks of separate sizes. That way if they are unevenly charged when I put them on the charger, I dont have to compromise proper charge profile on one set.

Thanks in advance for any guidance....
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-24-2007, 10:07 AM Reply   
Brant:


For sport boat applications (1000W+ RMS Stereo...), shouldn't the battery priority should be reversed? No Pos+ to Pos+ and Neg- to Neg-

2. Also, they show the start battery doing nothing but starting, and the House/Aux battery carrying EVERYTHIN else. This is also different that I want to do. Don't I want the House/Aux Batt carrying nothing but Stereo (and maybe some Aux lights at some point), and the Start Battery running the normal stuff on the boat like it does now. This is easy. Just make sure you re-wire your system so that the load (lights or and Aux draw) pulls from the House batterys. If you wire into the stock system all draw is pulled threw the stock system. If you add anything make the draw come from the house (stereo) batterys leave your starting battery just for starting.
3. With the set up I assume, the Duo Charge is out, since it only passes 30A. As such, I a settling on the the Hellroaring device with remote switch. correct. I would set your system up like this. H.O alternator into a Blue Sea ACR http://bluesea.com/products/7610 This is a awesome unit easy to use simple hook up. 200 Amp max. It does what the Hellroaing does but IMO its much better
Run side A of the output of the ACR to your House batterys and side B to your start batterys.


7. Plan on upgrading the Alt to something like a Balmar 6 Series with a MaxCharge Regulator. Does anyone know how hard it is to adapt one of those Alts to a Mecruiser Black Scorp Engine? The largest single belt Amp is 110A. Above that (135A and 160A) Balmer goes to dual belt. Can I get away with 110 and a single belt. I dont want to have to charge all the pulleys to dual belt.
Have someone make you new pullys like I did.
Upload
Upload

(Message edited by grant_west on December 24, 2007)

(Message edited by grant_west on December 24, 2007)
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-24-2007, 10:13 AM Reply   
More Info about my system in these links
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/314698.html
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/320581.html
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-24-2007, 10:48 AM Reply   
Grant,

I think you misinterpreted my first question. I was not asking about "polarity"....I was asking about "priority".

If the (+) lead goes from the Alt to the house/aux battery, and the Hellroaring type switch is between the house/aux (+) and the starting (+) terminal, then when the boat is running, the starting battery only charges when the house battery is topped off. Doesn't the circuit only close when the first battery is topped off?

In this case, it seems like the Starting Battery should be the first battery.

As for dual belts...I guess that would give me a reson to get my lathe hooked up again. I could make those pretty easy. What grade Aluminum did you use. 6061 T6?

(Message edited by kitewake on December 24, 2007)
Old    DAVE J (montana_sanger)      Join Date: Nov 2007       12-24-2007, 11:34 AM Reply   
I agree with you Brant I've set up several multi-motor, multi-battery set ups with isolators and we always prioritize the cranking battery, newer Merc setups really dislike low start batteries.


You may consider a dual-pro onboard charger like the pro fisherman use, up to 15 amps per bank,fully auto, no air space requirements and have good warranty/repair programs(almost any high end fish boat comes with this brand)Of course like any thing good pricey.With power steering on kickers and huge electronics these guys have similar issues and price is not an object.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-24-2007, 12:29 PM Reply   
Brant: Yes your right I misinterpreted your question sorry. Yes priority is your starting battery.
This is how the ACR (automatic charging relay) works
The output of your alternator go's to your starting battery. The ACR can tell when your starting battery is at full charge at that time it lets the charge flow into your house bank and charges your stereo bank up. The great thing about the ACR is you don't need to hook a key up to it its all automatic. Most solnoids need a key to disconnect the start battery from the house bank. the ACR dosent.

What grade of aluminum did I use? I used T-$600
thats the grade where you open up your wallet and pay some one to machine them for you.
Im not sure what he used. Im guessing 6061. He said it was a huge chunk.

Here are some before and fter pics of the battery /charging system I did for our pontoon boat

Before
Upload
After
Upload
}
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-25-2007, 2:18 AM Reply   
Thanks gents....I think I have a handle on things now. I think the diagrams which showed the starting battery second were for cruising sailboats, etc, where house loads are important...and having a battery dedicated only to starting makes sense. I did note that the Blue Sea diagram showed the starting battery prioritized though. This clearly is the way to go for our applications.

My only question left is about the alternator and belt. How much alternator load/torque can the Merc serpentine belt take? I know it is more than a std belt...but then again, I have heard complaints about Merc belts squeeling too..... I guess I just dont want to mess with all new pulleys.....
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-25-2007, 9:16 AM Reply   
Do you know if your V belt are 1/2 or 3/4 inch.
My Ford PCM uses 1/2inc. When I had the new pullys made I had him make the V-s so that I could use 3/4 inch belts. That will help.

Im sure the stock V-belt will handle 90 amp's.
My 210 amp alternator can pull or suck up to 8 Hp pulling at max draw. Thats why they recomend 2 belt's. You might to be able to find pullys for your motor. I had my'n custom made because I couldnt find a pully for my motor. I needed a lower pully with 3 groves and a water pump pully with 2 groves. They made the water pump pully and you could buy the alternator pully it was just the bottom pully that was hard to find. I wanted the pullys to match up perfict so I just threw money at it and had it taken care of. Im sure if you had time you might be able to buy exactley what you are looking 4.

As far as Priorty. You can take the charge leed off of the ACR or what ever you decide to go with and run it to what ever you like. Example. If you want your start battery to be Priorty you just make sure the charge lead off the unit go's to your start battery and not your house bank.

The way I have my system set up is like this.
bank A is my large bank it runs my stereo and everything on the boat. If some how I went tottaly dead and ran out of power. I have a Pergo style battery switch that I can throw and I have a back up battery (optima) tucked away. I have a Duo charge battery switcher between bank A and the starting battery so It dosent let the draw suck down the emergency starting battery power ever. The only time the emergency battery can be used is if the switch has been turned on.

My system's priorty is bank A. there realy isnt a bank B. Bank B is a small 55 amp hr optima. I dont like the theroy that alternator has to waste time charging and topping off a battery that hardley ever gets used. This way the Alternator gets to work right away and I don't have to wait for the starting battery to get fully topped off before my system gets much needed power.

I never run my system very low on power. I have had my system at 10v and it still has enough Amp's to turn the boat over. I havent ever had to use the back up battery. I use the Xantrex Link 10
Amp meter so I know exactley where my systems power is at pretty much at all times so I could tell if somthing was wrong right away.
check it out
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/327807.html
Old    Bob (bob)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-28-2007, 2:54 AM Reply   
Brant from what Ive read the priority should be the bank that will be depleted more. Supposedly the cranking bank tops off very quickly so the combiner will not overheat trying to tie the house bank to the slightly depleted cranking battery. The current the other way would be substantial and cause many cycles for it to come up. IE: as the cranking bank tops off it will tie to the house which will quickly pull down the starting battery which will open up the combiner as it sees the voltage quickly drop, etc. Now the other way the house bank will charge up and when it is topped off it will tie to the starting battery which will top off quickly. Most of this info came from the west marine documentation for their combiner.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-28-2007, 6:59 AM Reply   
I never run my system very low on power. I have had my system at 10v and it still has enough Amp's to turn the boat over.

Just a word of caution, a state of 12v is considered a discharged battery i.e. dead. At 12V, the battery is down to about 25% capacity.

Starting batteries do not like to be cycled from "charged" to "discharged" to many times. The number of cycles will effect the life span of the battery. Due to construction differences, Deep-cycle batteries will withstand many more these discharge cycles.

Keeping a battery in use with a tender/smart charger, is not nearly as harmful on a battery as letting it run down and then recharging.

At one time, AC Delco's had a 3 cycle lifespan. After the third run down, odds were they would not recover and hold a charge.
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-28-2007, 7:46 PM Reply   
Bob/Grant,

After more thought...there are quite a few good reasons to make the larger bank (stereo, etc) the primary charging priority. That is the way to go.

As for the belts on the 2000 V210/Black Scorp Merc...they are 21mm MicroV....ie slightly over 3/4". The Gates # is K060878. With the 170 degree belt wrap on this motor, I am betting it could easily pull 120A....maybe even 165A.

I still have some real concerns and questions about wiring a new HO alt up. The stock 65A is internally regulated. The larger Balmar I want to install will have an external regulator (Balmar Max Charge). How I integrate this into the existing wiring harness is the question. I have heard of issues with just plugging in a larger Alt with the ECM-555 Engine Control Board getting fried or going haywire.

I have full wiring diagrams from the Service Manual and will post as soon as I can shrink the drawing files down....
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-28-2007, 10:29 PM Reply   
Alternator Output Circuit Diagram:

Upload

a - From alternator
b - Fuse on starter
c - To battery
d - 50 amp circuit breaker
e - Splice 103
f - 10 pin
g - Main power relay
h - Fuses
i - Starter solenoid power
j - Splice 105
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-28-2007, 10:36 PM Reply   
Charging System Harness Diagram:
Upload
A -Audio Warning Components
1-Transmission Temperature Switch

B - Instrumentation Components
1-Oil Pressure Sender
2-Wire Not Used

C - Charging and Starting Components
1-Alternator
2-Ground Stud
3-Starter
4-90 Amp Fuse (DO NOT REMOVE)
5-Circuit Breaker
6-Starter Slave Solenoid
7-Neutral Safety Switch
a-Positive Power Wire To EFI System Harness
b-Harness Connector To EFI System Harness
c-Auxiliary Tachometer Lead
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-28-2007, 10:44 PM Reply   
The Red/Purple lead is referred to in the service manual as the 'sensing wire' for the alternator. I am betting that the main (+) output post on the Alt is integrally connected to this in the Alt. As such this is really just a way to get power out to low current devices in the system (instruments, starter solenoid, ECU).

The Purple wire is the "excitation" wire. But this alternator has an interal regulator...so this wire is not likely an "input" to the alternator...it is an output. Does the ECU want to know what the Alternator field level is? Why does this wire connect to the (+) power connectiong to ECU?

How on earth do I integrate an Alternator with an external regulator into this system? What do I do with the harness connections that connect to the red/purple and purple wires coming out of the stock Alt? Aaargh!

(Message edited by kitewake on December 28, 2007)
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-30-2007, 12:50 PM Reply   
OK...I have a better understanding. In the standard configuration, 12V + runs through the big fuse on the starter post to Circuit Breaker #5, then to the main splice in the harness. This provides general 12V to the whole system, including the ECU. The sense wire from the alternator connects to this for voltage feedback for the regulator.

Unfortunately, what this meanse is that if I put the house battery first (always charging)and use a smart ARC like the Balmar Duo-charge, then the house battery has to carry all boat loads (instruments, ECU, fuel pumps, etc). The start battery will then be isolated, and do only one job -> turn the starter motor. This might not be so bad. The only concern I have is electrical noise in the system. What do you think?

I still have a question about the purple wire that runs from the alternator. It goes to a splice....and goes to two spots....the instrument connector, and the ECU. Why? This seems like the key issue to me. Anyone have any ideas? I am guessing it is for diagnostics and maybe the ECU can latch an error code off of it. But why on earth does it go to Pin 5 on the instrumentation connector?
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-01-2008, 1:02 PM Reply   
Bump....

More questions on general configurations of dual battery systems. It seems to me there is no ideal set up if you want to have smart charge regulation for your batteries. I want to use AGM batts (NO fumes), so smart charge regulation is a must. I plan on using a Balmar external regulator (Max Charge or similar) with a 165A Alt.

Here are the options. None of them are ideal.

Option #1:
Small Battery has starter motor and boat system duty and is primary. That means this battery is on the front side of your isolation device, and always gets juice from the alternator

Large/Aux battery carries no loads except for the stereo, and is isolated/secondary. The only isolation device I have found that can provide smart regulation to the second battery is the Balmar Duo Charge, and it will only pass 30A.

Option #1 Disadvantages
To make this work, I have to use a non regulating isolation device in order to pass enough Alt juice to the big House/Aux battery. So no smart regulation of house batts in this set up


Option #2
Large House/Aux Battery drives Audio only and is primary. That means this battery is on the front side of your isolation device, and always gets juice from the alternator

Starter battery carries starter motor and normal boat loads like engine management, and is isolated/secondary.

Option #2 Disadvantages
While running, if the Aux/Audio battery is low, and the isolation device has the charge to the secondary battery shut off, then the ECU could lose stable voltage and fry. Worst case....starter batter runs down while house batter is recharging while running

Option #3
Large House/Aux Battery drives Audio + carries engine management and normal boat duties, and is primary. That means this battery is on the front side of your isolation device, and always gets juice from the alternator

Starter battery carries starter motor load ONLY. Nothing else. This is the common set up for offshore sailboats, etc.

Option #3 Disadvantages
Stereo/Audio is not isolated from the rest of the boat.


Seems like Option #3 represents the smallest compromise. Opinions?
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-01-2008, 3:08 PM Reply   
Brent,

Just a couple of thoughts.....KISS (keep it simple stupid) Not calling anyone stupid, just a saying.

First, what are you trying to accomplish, what is your goal, what do you want the system to do?

Alternators are not intended to charge a battery(s) but to top off and keep up with Normal loads. Adding a hi amp draw stereo is not a normal load and that's where you are. Adding a hi amp output Alt is a solution, but cost money, tend to require modification of brackets and belt, higher gauge output wire, use more horsepower. Even still this may not completely recharge multiple batteries or keep up with demand, while on the water, so you may still need a charger to finish up.

I would highly recommend keeping the starter and engine system together, isolated from the aux batts, and receiving the primary charge. ECM's do not like low voltage and tend to wig out under those conditions.

If you calculate your system's draw, you can build a battery bank that will give you a day on the water with out the need for a charge for the alternator, and at the end of the day, plug up the on-board charger/tender, and you are ready to go the next day. 4 6v golf cart type batteries would probably work fine, and they make good ballast to.

Here is what I would do, based on your first post of a 3 amp system:

120 amp alt upgrade. Built using original size alt housing. May have smaller pulley but is usually a fairly straight forward bolt-on.

Single Starting battery for starter and engine controls

Your 2 4D AGM's for the "house" to power stereo and other accessories.

Multi-bank smart charger/tender.

A simple, straight forward, Battery Iso. This will allow the Alt to top off/maintain both banks of batteries without letting the system pull down the Starting battery.

A Diode type Iso does have a small voltage drop to it, but only about .4v to .7v, but I have not found this to be a problem for any stereo yet. A typical Alt charges at 13.5 to 14.5v's. With 12.6 being a fully charged battery, even with a .7v loss, we are still netting a 12.8v to 13.8v charge at the batteries. This means it only takes a little longer to top of batteries once engine is running. For those long days at the sandbar running the tunes, you have the tender to charge the batteries.

Good luck, sound like it's going to be a nice system.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       01-01-2008, 4:24 PM Reply   
Few things are more emabarrassing than being on the lake with a nice expensive boat that pumps up the music...and then not being able to start.

Isolate your starting battery no matter what.

My .02
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-01-2008, 8:24 PM Reply   
Brant: Take every ones advice but do it the way I said.
Old    Brant Williams (kitewake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-07-2008, 6:58 PM Reply   
TigeMike,

Thanks for the comments. I am going to use a ProTech 1240i Plus...so I will have a first rate batter charger/tender system driven by shore power.

Based on what you are saying, I should not worry about having smart regulation of the house/aux/audio battery. If I have a smart regulator, it will sense the primary battery voltage. When the start/primary and Aux batteries are in parallel, the Alt output will be tailored for the primary battery, despite the secondary battery being in the system. Oh well.

As I see it, the only solution to this problem is an isolation device that does not exist...ie something like the Balmar Duo Charge that passes about 100A-150A instead of just 30A.... That does not exist, unfortunately.

My final question is what do I do with the original excitation lead from the original alternator?

Currently 12V flows from the main breaker, to a splice on the harness. It then provides 12V to the instruments and lamps in the dash (Lead #6 on the instrument harness connector).

Part way through the instrument chain, the wire changes from purp/red to pure purple. The purple lead returns via #5 on the instrument harness connector. This lead splits to the ECU, and also
goes back to the stock alt..where the voltage drop has reduced the voltage to 1.3 to 2.5 volts.

What do I do with it? Ground it through a power resistor? Clip it a seal it off? Should I worry about the lead going to the ECU? My guess is that this is for the ECU to sense Alternator issues, and latch alarms for diagnostics.

(Message edited by kitewake on January 07, 2008)

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