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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through October 28, 2007

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Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-17-2007, 5:51 PM Reply   
^^^^^^

Exactly. Live and let live. This is one instance, no one can definitevely prove the advantage of one way vs. another.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 6:20 PM Reply   
Group Hug ?
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 6:25 PM Reply   
Well you can definitely tell the season is slowly winding down
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-17-2007, 6:45 PM Reply   
How is this even an argument? It's obviously more safe to use straps so use them if you want. If you dont want to then dont.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 7:06 PM Reply   
apparently you missed the whole this topic is going nowhere post
Old    Sinko (sinkoumn)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-17-2007, 7:59 PM Reply   
Weren't we debating on whether or not to piss into the wind?

Good, back on topic - discuss amongst yourselves
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 8:01 PM Reply   
lol
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-17-2007, 8:17 PM Reply   
Whats the best metal polish to use on transom tie down rings?
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 8:22 PM Reply   
can I wash my tie downs in the washing machine ?
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-17-2007, 8:31 PM Reply   
my tie downs are cracking and blistering, should this be covered by my warranty?
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 8:34 PM Reply   
If I strap the back of my boat to my tower will this keep it from bouncing ?
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-17-2007, 8:42 PM Reply   
nice, and if you have a mc you use the straps as tower braces after you launch. i keep an extra set in the boat to tie off on the dock. its great you just put 1 hook on your boat cleat and the other on the dock and pull it tight. rough on the gel coat though
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-17-2007, 8:43 PM Reply   
lol yes multi use
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-18-2007, 4:57 AM Reply   
ha! i think number four from that powerboat link is even more overkill than we are debating with the addition of the gunwale strap. i am picture pee wee herman's big adventure where he is pulling several feet of heavy duty chain out the saddle back on his bicycle to secure it while he his gone hahaha!
Old    JimR (jimr)      Join Date: Sep 2001       09-18-2007, 7:23 AM Reply   
Sorry for reviving this thread, but I have heard there is another reason to use tie downs other than mitigating the severity of an accident. The tie downs keep the boat and trailer together as one unit even during normal travel. Without them, the boat is constantly pounding the trailer which can eventually tear up your trailer (particularly the bunks) and damage your boat. With them on, it is your trailer springs that take all the pounding (as they should). Either way (accident or normal towing) I can't see the disadvantage in using tie downs.
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-18-2007, 7:33 AM Reply   
^^^^^^

I was going to let this die, until this comment, are you freaking kidding me?

Are you trying to tell me a 4K boat bounces on the trailer w/o tie downs?
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-18-2007, 7:42 AM Reply   
So why does the military strap down 40,000 pound tanks or construction companies a 20,000 pound track hoe when transporting down the highway. Come on people everything should be secured to the truck or trailer when being transported.
Old    Randy (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       09-18-2007, 7:45 AM Reply   
Shane, a 4k boat will bounce on the trailer if you hit a bump. I never thought it would either in the beginning and didn't use tie downs in the back. I could hear it bouncing, but thought it was the trailer. A buddy of mine followed me to the lake one day and said the boat was coming off the trailer at least 2-3 inches when I hit a bump. That was only in a 55mph zone. We got to the lake and the bow strap had let the boat move back on the trailer. Now I have Boat Buddy's installed on the back and the boat and trailer stay together and let the springs do their job as JimR stated.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-18-2007, 8:07 AM Reply   
mine feels like it bounces all over the place w/o straps
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-18-2007, 8:10 AM Reply   
^^^^^

That must be one helluva a road. I drive down what I consider a lousy road. I have drove behind my boat and many others and have never seen a boat raise up 2-3". 3" is a lot of movement.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-18-2007, 8:29 AM Reply   
I don't even have a trailer I just drag it
Old    Peter_C (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       09-18-2007, 8:34 AM Reply   
Shane, if you reread my first post I said I watched my boat levitate over the trailer. I hit a bump that was not seen in the middle of a levee road at the Sacramento Delta driving between launch ramps. So yes a boat can come off the trailer. The comment above about pounding on the trailer makes sense just in the fact it will load and unload, even if it does not actually leave the trailer. The tension applied will stop that.

So looking at this picture someone could have easily died. Would you want to be responsible for that? Maybe straps would have helped, maybe they wouldn't but at least one could say they TRIED to prevent the accident (Of course a proper tow vehicle would have been in order, no comments needed).
Upload
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-18-2007, 8:47 AM Reply   
Sweet action
Old    JimR (jimr)      Join Date: Sep 2001       09-18-2007, 8:50 AM Reply   
Yes Shane, I am freaking kidding you.

Montgomery, you reminded me of this:

http://www.toughboats.com/index.cfm?page=5&subpage=RecommendATest
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-18-2007, 9:11 AM Reply   
So let's just assume for argument sake that tie down's work and are a great prevention tool.

Now.....

I think the department of Justice figures will predict that a good percentage of people will be a victim of violent crime in their lifetime.
I would bet a much larger percentage of folks than would be in a catastrophic boat trailering wreck.

That being said, do you carry a gun to protect yourself, family and loved ones? I mean just in case? Would not you want to do everything possible?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-18-2007, 9:28 AM Reply   
Yes, you completely misread my model and missed my point. I'm not talking about the momentum of the trailer. I'm talking about the force required to lift the boat off of the trailer. Nor did I talk about hitting another vehicle. I purposely used the example of hitting a stationary object in order to simplify the model.

Let's try this. Pretend you're using a hydraulic jack to lift a 3000 lb. boat straight up off a trailer. How much upward force do you think it would take that jack? I'm assuming your answer will be anything over 3,000 lbs. of upward force. That means that if you apply 3000 lbs. of upward force, the net force acting on the boat is zero (3000 up - 3000 down = 0) and the boat won't move. If you apply 3100 lbs. of upward force, the boat is going to be leaving the trailer.

So it only took an additional 100 lbs. of force to separate the boat from the trailer. If your tie downs are capable of holding 100 lbs., your boat will not leave the trailer. Say your three tie downs are capable of holding 1200 lbs. (400 lbs. each). That means an additional force of 1200 pounds can be applied to your boat before your tie downs break and the boat separates from the trailer. So that's a total of 5200 lbs of force, but your tie downs only need to be able to withstand 400 lbs. of force.

So, again, my point is that just because you have a 3000 lb. boat, that does not mean that tie downs need to withstand 3000 lbs of force to hold it to the trailer. So saying "the tie downs will break anyway" is a ridiculous argument.
Old    Ed G (ed_g)      Join Date: Nov 2005       09-18-2007, 9:38 AM Reply   
and no matter what the subject, how's come someone always has to bring up the subject of carrying a gun?
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-18-2007, 10:07 AM Reply   
JimR, What the hell did you following me to the lake one day ? lol that made me pee a little
Old    CRASH (vin)      Join Date: May 2007       09-18-2007, 12:16 PM Reply   
hey guys lets send this to myth-busters and they will find out which is the best way to save your boat, so unless someone on here is going to do a test you are just beating a dead horse.for the ones that tie down good job, for the ones that dont good luck.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-18-2007, 2:11 PM Reply   
For real someone e-mail this to them
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-18-2007, 3:43 PM Reply   
d williams--

totally clarified. the problem with your model (as i think i now understand it) is that you are not taking into account the force or momentum of the boat/trailer combination, and how that momentum changes when the rig is involved in an accident. remember that force = mass x acceleration, and as the velocity of the rig changes due to positive or negative acceleration, the force is going to change proportionally.

while the trailer is rest, as in your model, your 100 lbs straps may work, assuming that their sum strength was strong enough to support the weight of the trailer. i guess if you are arguing that they would keep a boat from bouncing on the trailer (changes in the vertical or y axis), that may be plausible (some boats may bounce, i have yet to see mine bounce). however, if you are taking into account the momentum or force of the rig (in the horizontal or x axis), the force of the boat becomes much heavier that its 3000lbs weight.

after searching, the most heavy duty straps i could find are made by BoatBuckle.

http://www.immioutdoors.com/boatbuckle/downloads/BoatBuckle_OEM_Guide.pdf

the heavy duty pair has a 5000 lb breaking strength, and a 1667 lb working strength. the hooks themselves are only rated at 2500lbs max, each. i think it is safe to say that a 4000 lb+ boat and a 1200 lb+ trailer that are moving have a lot more force than it takes to easily exceed the 5000lb breaking strength, let alone the 1667 lb working strength of those straps...

so, could you conjecture that the straps may keep you from bouncing (if you have a bouncing problem), but given enough momentum (which i would assuming 55+ mph has), that the straps would not withstand much of anything at all?
Old    Ryan Lacefield (26lacefield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-18-2007, 3:52 PM Reply   
i don't strap my boat down. my last boat got side swipped by a car that was doin about 20 or 25. my side guides kept the boat on the trailer. when the car hit, it hit in the wheel well so tires and axels probably took most of the impact away from the boat but i still think the back straps wouldn't of held the boat on the trailer.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-18-2007, 4:09 PM Reply   
No, again you're missing the point I'm trying to make. You're making the assumption that if a boat weighs 5,000 lbs and a force lifts it upward, then the boat is automatically moving upward with 5,000 lbs. of force. That's not true. The boat could be moving up with any amount of force, even less than 1 lb (which is probably what results in bouncing or moving on the trailer).

If an object weighs 5,000 lbs., that only means that there is 5,000 lbs. worth of force pushing towards the ground due to gravity. It would take a 10,000 lb. upward force to both counteract the effects of gravity and move the boat upward with 5,000 lbs. worth of force. So no matter how strong your tie downs are, there is a window in which they will be effective.

My model does take into account momentum. When I applied a force great than the weight of the boat, that is momentum.

Also, you say that the tie-downs have to support the weight of the trailer. That's only true if the upward force applied is greater than the weight of the boat and trailer combined. As I said in my previous example, if you have a 3000 lb. boat with an 800 lb. trailer and an upward force of 3100 lbs is applied, the tie-downs only have to withstand 100 lbs. of force to keep the boat and trailer together and on the ground.

Again, you don't need tie-downs that can support the entire weight of your boat in order for them to be effective.

And on a side note, boats bounce and move on the trailer when moving over road imperfections. That's a proven fact that simply cannot be argued. I can guarantee that you would not take your boat on a 1000 mile journey without strapping it down in the front. We both know that the boat wouldn't be in the same position at the end of that journey as when it started.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       09-18-2007, 5:07 PM Reply   
If your tie downs would hold 500 lbs. of force each, they would pick up the trailer and the boat would not move on the trailer. When it landed you would have the trailer suspension to absorb the force and some part of the boat other than a strake dispersing the load over the hull. This is not really tough math. Use straps.

It's also neat to leave all the straps done up and just unhitch the trailer. Think about it, extra ballast and no loss of interior space. Just power up the ramp and have someone throw a chock under the wheel so you could hitch on again. That's something you can't do if you don't strap the back. I haven't done this yet but someone should just for the video.
Old    JimR (jimr)      Join Date: Sep 2001       09-18-2007, 5:51 PM Reply   
Alright folks, have you ever looked in your side mirrors while towing your boat?

Here in Chucktown where I live, we have many large expansion bridges. Nothing unique, I know, but I have noticed (believe me I have) that the tractor trailer trucks tend to really beat the hell out of the expanses from the entrance and exit from solid ground to the bridges. In fact they produce a certain undulating resonance of a sinusoidal nature (ok, I’m getting turned-on now) that can really get my (completely inadequate, gasoline combustion, what-the-hell-was-I-thinking) half-ton Z71 tow rig and boat on a tandem axle trailer, bucking and bouncing all over the place. Maybe I am lucky enough to be one of the privileged few who have witness this phenomenon but boats do bounce on trailers! A few experiences like this and I bought myself some of them-there tie downs.
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-18-2007, 6:23 PM Reply   
david bringing the front strap into the equation is disengenious at best, no would argue that, mainly because of trailer construction, and weight distribution.

I see no on still addressed my earlier point.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-18-2007, 7:24 PM Reply   
To quote Ferris Bueller "You're still here? It's over! Go home."
Old    Aaron Ware (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       09-18-2007, 7:33 PM Reply   
Where is the box of pop corn or the dead horse geting beat?
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       09-18-2007, 7:38 PM Reply   
Shane, the statistics say that bringing a gun with you would increase your chances of a gun related injury or death. That being said it wouldn't be doing everything to help. However this is an arguement for a different board.
I assume that's the point you wanted addressed.

(Message edited by rallyart on September 18, 2007)
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-18-2007, 7:50 PM Reply   
^^^^
Art you are reading the wrong statistics. Many studies say the opposite, not counting common sense and real life experiences.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-18-2007, 8:49 PM Reply   
Never mind. You're obviously only interested in pointing out why my model doesn't apply to the real world rather than looking at what the model proves. It's a simplified version of the forces in order to illustrate the point. If you want that badly to ignore physics, then go ahead and leave your straps off. Although, I bet you'll leave the front strap on even though "a 4000 lb. boat will not go anywhere!"
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-19-2007, 5:17 AM Reply   
D--
Was that directed at me? I understand the front strap will keep the boat from sliding backwards on the boat. I also understand that I have a 3/8" safety cable attached at the same point. If the wee little old strap was strong enough to do all of the work there in a catastrophic accident, accident, then what is the purpose of the safety cable? why not another safety strap made of nylon webbing?

I was going to leave it alone because we are obviously misunderstanding one another and arguing different things (no biggy, its easy to do on the interweb), but when you add the forward momentum of the boat, then trying to keep it on the trailer if the you were to head on another vehicle at 60 MPH, aint going to be accomplished by two transom straps...the boat would still end up in the bed of your pickup... i am not ignoring physics here, as you are only taking into account the force of gravity, not the force of momentum. i think it is newton's second law that says an object in motion will stay in motion at a constant speed until acted upon by an out side force. the truck stops. it stops the trailer. the boat will keep going unless it is stopped by the straps (i know friction on the trailer bunks plays a role also). but the momentum of the boat is far greater than its 3000 lb weight because of its velocity at that point, so unless you have it strapped down with monstrous straps, you are still going to see it cruising past you. riddle me this, after you put on your transom straps, do you put a stern strap on across the back of your boat? why not?
Old    Dtb (dtb)      Join Date: May 2002       09-19-2007, 6:06 AM Reply   
I didn't read this entire thread, but I don't see the point in NOT using transom tie downs. You may not need them 99 times out of 100, but you're gonna wish you had used them that one time your boat bounces.

These pics are of a friends boat/trailer, MC PS190. He hit a relatively small pot hole at 35 MPH and that was enough to bounce the boat up off the trailer. It landed back down on the wheel well and caused the damage you see in the pics, as well as damage to the prop and rudder. Granted, it is a smaller boat, but this happened at 35 MPH. I have no doubt that my VLX could separate from the trailer in a similar situation, especially at higher speeds --- so I strap it down. If you would rather take the risk and take it up with your insurance, that is your call.

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Old    swass            09-19-2007, 7:59 AM Reply   
And that, as they say, is that.

Resistance is futile. Surrender now.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-19-2007, 8:46 AM Reply   
No point really in defending ignorance.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-19-2007, 8:51 AM Reply   
I wish I had an emoticon waving a little white flag.

At least I can say I put the info out there so those that are seriously interested in the topic can make an educated decision.

Also, the president of Extreme Trailers told me that it's a federal law that boats have to have rear tie downs. I didn't have any luck finding said law, but you can take that for what it's worth as well.
Old    Bill K (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-19-2007, 9:05 AM Reply   
We pulled a buddies' 23' LSV out of the lake the other day. As he pulled out, the boat was a bit crooked on the trailer. It only took two of us to push the boat over almost a foot.

But there is no way my 4000 lb boat will move on a trailer!
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-19-2007, 11:02 AM Reply   
Upload
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       09-19-2007, 11:33 AM Reply   
Here Dave.
Upload Upload Upload
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-19-2007, 11:54 AM Reply   
i got it!! i will just tow my vlx with the wedge down. it will apply downward force of 1250+ lbs and now i will not have to use transom tie downs. who's with me
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-19-2007, 12:25 PM Reply   
"Shane, the statistics say that bringing a gun with you would increase your chances of a gun related injury or death."

I think the person injured or dead probably deserved it and was the reason there was a gun in the first place. Therefore, the statistic is skewed. If I own a gun and someone comes in my house...POW I shoot him...technically YES having a gun increased the chances of someone getting injured or killed.
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-19-2007, 12:25 PM Reply   
^^^^^
That's my excuse and I am sticking to it.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       09-19-2007, 12:34 PM Reply   
^Darwin, huh?
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       09-19-2007, 12:42 PM Reply   
Pure greatness Rich, I never looked at it that way, just so used to the socialist BS media slants being repeated.
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-19-2007, 12:47 PM Reply   
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

-Autobiography of Mark Twain


Whenever someone quotes statistics remember that 4 out of 5 people think you are wrong and a fool. At least that is what my statistics say.
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-19-2007, 1:51 PM Reply   
this what happens without tie downs, and a couple other problems

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDvcsUGmX8
Old    Rich (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-19-2007, 2:01 PM Reply   
Phew good thing that boat was tied down, it looked like it was going to JUMP off the trailer.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-19-2007, 2:33 PM Reply   
Natural Selection ?
Old     (1boarder_kevin)      Join Date: Mar 2007       09-19-2007, 6:26 PM Reply   
I have come from the dark side. I now agree that using straps will help in some wrecks. I still believe you are screwed in a hwy speed wreck, its just too much force to hold the boat and/or trailer down on the ground. With that, I do believe that if straps will do good on some wrecks and not cause any extra damage in a hwy speed wreck, so they are good.
Old    Aquahawk© (aquahawk)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-19-2007, 7:29 PM Reply   
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Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-19-2007, 7:56 PM Reply   
So what if your trailer doesn't have rings to strap to ?
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-19-2007, 8:02 PM Reply   
i agree. they may help keep the boat from bouncing on the trailer. i also agree that they arent fool proof. if you are worried about your boat bouncing, i say go for it...after reconsidering it, from a bouncing perspective, the straps only have to support the weight of the trailer, not the weight of the boat, so a couple of 2500lbs straps should have not problem holding a 1200lb trailer tight. its when the boat wants to separate from trailer (front, back, side, etc) during a collision where you have to question their strength. at any rate, i guess it is kind of like religion-- some people say it is better to believe in God and be wrong, than to not believe in God and be wrong...hahaha! insert smart ace comment here: i guess i could wear a helmet while driving to make sure that i take all possible precautions against trauma to my head.

interesting photos above. that small pothole your friend hit was just SMALL enough to "require" that the leaf springs be removed and the axle be moved aft for repair...doh! i guess it is important to note that a similar situation a dual axle trailer probably would have reacted completely differently and probably would have tossed the boat less...at least that is my experience.

this is an interesting link (apparently, nobody told me or anyone else in TX that it was against the law to tow a boat over 55mph!!!):

http://www.boatus.com/trailerclub/laws.asp

i called my local PD after reading the TX laws and talked to an LEO. he said that transom straps are not required in TX (which contradicts the above link). he also echoed the other professionals (if you want to call them that) that said a set of tie downs would be ineffective on a 4k boat in an accident, but he wouldnt recommend against them. he also brought to my attention several things i didnt consider that would affect how your boat behaves while in tow: tow vehicle, trailer balance, trailer attitude, number of axles, etc.

whatever, i guess i have no standing, because my 220 doesnt have rear tie down points in the 1st place!
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-19-2007, 9:12 PM Reply   
my trailer has a bad attitude, probably because im always putting a huge boat on its back
Old    swass            09-20-2007, 6:39 AM Reply   
I don't know why everyone continues to harp on the accident aspect as a reason NOT to use them. That makes no sense what so ever. I don't think anyone can deny that transom straps keep the boat from bouncing around on the trailer during normal driving conditions - potholes, hitting a curb, rough roads, etc. Especially if you have a single axle trailer. There's even photographic proof. We have some terrible roads around here. There's one stretch of highway in particular that launches all four wheels of my trailer off the ground at least an inch unless I slow down below 50. The speed limit there is 65.

The extra one minute it takes to put them on is more than worth the effort. If your boat and trailer are so equipped, opting to use them is the prudent choice. I think that's what the pro-strap advocates are saying. I don't think anyone claimed that transom straps will keep a boat on a trailer in an accident. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It depends on the severity of the accident, and numerous other factors that I don't pretend to grasp. That's no reason to choose not to use them when you have the option to do so.

(Message edited by swass on September 20, 2007)

(Message edited by swass on September 20, 2007)
Old    lakeski (lakeski)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-20-2007, 7:04 PM Reply   
Raw video....

This WILL happen to you if you don't tie down your boat.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkVucXIrJRw&mode=related&search=
Old    Sinko (sinkoumn)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-20-2007, 7:12 PM Reply   
^Ahahah , classic
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-24-2007, 12:11 AM Reply   
I was at a gas station in Paso Robles Thursday and saw this, so I had to take a pic for this thread. Even this guy knows that you have to strap it on!! :-)

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Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       09-24-2007, 9:22 AM Reply   
LOL!! Hangin with the strapless camp has to feel like dating your sister at this point.

Shane, we need a Darwin quote BAD!!
Old    Retch (retch)      Join Date: May 2007       10-08-2007, 9:59 AM Reply   
Holy cannonball run, that's a sweet pic! Mini-tower, maxi-wedge. That whole setup is screamin for speedos and funions. Rock it!!

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