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Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-20-2014, 8:44 PM Reply   
Option 1:
WPAK4 4 Speaker Wakeboard Package: (2) Pair XM9 + (1) XM30.2
JavPK2 4 Speaker Package: (2) Pair SXT65M + (1) JAVELIN + (1) Xi12D
ZLDv2 Multi Zone Line Driver
Possibly substitute (2) SX12 subs

Option 2:
WPAK4 4 Speaker Wakeboard Package: (2) Pair XM9 + (1) XM30.2
XIBASS 12 inch Subwoofer Package: (1) Xi12D + XM12.1
CAB2 4 Speaker Cabin Package: (2) Pair SXT65M + (1) XM15.4
ZLDv2 Multi Zone Line Driver
Possible extra (1) Xi12D

What do you think about the following options? The 1st is cheaper by at least $500 cause it uses 2 amps not three. I was thinking of installing a sub under the dash and one in the observers compartment. But would take any suggestions. Also how many amp hours do you think I'll need as a battery so that I can play for several hours without charge?

Let me know what you think...it's going to be a good summer.
Old     (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-21-2014, 12:59 AM Reply   
I run option 2 with the older series amps and a 15" under the helm instead of the 12". It's a great setup with a lot of headroom and control with the ZLD. Brian @ Exile has good setups for most boats and will know the right gear/setup that fits your boat. You might want to e-mail or call him before placing the order.

I run two Interstate 6V Golf cart batteries in series and it usually gives me 4-6 hours of key off time with the three amps. With the Class D amps you might get more depending on the setup you go with.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-21-2014, 7:19 AM Reply   
Yea, I emailed Brian earlier this week, so we will see what he says. I kind of like that with exile there aren't an abundance of options. Just stuff that will work.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-21-2014, 8:48 AM Reply   
Without far more details on the boat here is an important consideration.
You may want to rethink the two subwoofer scenario in two locations. In the typical towboat, the starboard drivers side subwoofer is recessed in a cavity and is mostly direct radiating. In contrast, the port side subwoofer is typically concealed in a storage locker and must vent from that locker via a decoupled grill, which is often cut into the pass-thru surface.
You will get some increase in output by doubling the woofer, but rarely will it be equal to what you would expect from double the power and double the surface area. Basically it is a terribly inefficient route whenever the observer's seat cushion is closed. Without fail the split locations is a downgrade in bass SQ, ie: phase soup, smeared impulse response & muddy. So if this is to be of benefit in SPL it will mostly be at rest with the seat cushion open.
If you want more output AND to maintain good bass SQ, then get creative and keep the sub(s) tightly collected and identically oriented on the driver's side.
Your subwoofer selection will then dictate the power requirement and the amplifier choice.
Old     (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-21-2014, 12:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoddio View Post
Yea, I emailed Brian earlier this week, so we will see what he says. I kind of like that with exile there aren't an abundance of options. Just stuff that will work.
I know he is out of town currently and might take awhile to respond back. I believe he is overseas on business.
Old     (Shane10p)      Join Date: Jul 2013       03-21-2014, 9:05 AM Reply   
Todd , Brian's a great guy who won't steer you wrong. I have a lot of friends running full Exile systems and they all sound great. I ran a 15 in my last boat and really liked it I think that it works great in the marine application and also would recommend you consider that over the 12 options. Either way it gonna sound great make sure to keep us posted on what you decide and good luck !
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-21-2014, 10:27 AM Reply   
I'm not sure they have a 15'' anymore. ? My concern with putting something too large under the dash is leg room. Being able to stretch my legs out is priority over sound quality. I also have a heater under there as well. I'm going to measure of dimensions that I have to work with next time I'm at the boat.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       03-21-2014, 12:44 PM Reply   
I have a set up very similar to option 2 but my EQ install is one of my winter projects so it’s not totally dialed in yet. I am expecting much more control and tuneability (is that a word?) once it is in.

1 XM30.2 running 4 XM9 – it is very loud but I am only running about half the power they can handle so after this season I might add a second XM30.2
XM12-1 to a XI12 sub in a sealed box under the dash - it puts out a lot of bass but the XM9’s are so powerful I might need to add a second or step up to a Big 12 or 15 or something from JL to balance the bass especially if I add another XM30 to the XM9’s. The EQ is going to help me big-time here I think. The bass knob in the pic will go away and the EQ is going in by the stereo control below the key.
XM15.4 is running 6 SX65M in boats – awesome upgrade over stock

Brian has been really helpful in setting me up with what I need. I am located a couple hours from Exiles facility and they have offered to take my boat in for a free tune when I am in the area. Pretty cool and great customer service IMO. I still have plenty of leg room with the 12 and the heater is functional.
Attached Images
  
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       03-21-2014, 12:56 PM Reply   
I use 2 batteries made for the utility industry. They look like regular batteries but they were designed to run power supplies for cable TV systems in the event of a power outage. They are 12 volt deep cycle batteries rated at a 25 Amp draw for 195 minutes each. Is that good? I dont know but since I started using them I can blast the stereo all day and I have never had to charge them other than what the alternator provides. Also have not had to charge them following winter storage.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-21-2014, 12:58 PM Reply   
That's a great looking setup! Why don't you just go with a ported box under the helm? Would put out a lot more sound.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-21-2014, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoddio View Post
That's a great looking setup! Why don't you just go with a ported box under the helm? Would put out a lot more sound.
Todd,
When you go out to your boat and measure, consider that a 'sealed' 12-inch with a middle of the road 'Q' (making it sutable for both sealed and ported) will require an enclosure in the area of 1.75 cu.ft. external while a 'ported' will require an enclosure at 2.75 cu.ft. external bare minimum. I give you the external numbers because that is the information you need to fit the boat and calculate leg room. When the fit gets very tight you also have to figure how the insertion angle will change the dimensions. It often takes a slightly smaller box than the cavity will accept to move it into place. The obstacles are different from boat to boat. You also have to calculate a small elevation under the enclosure to provide for drainage, evaporation, and the avoidance of mildew.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       03-21-2014, 2:24 PM Reply   
So if I change to a ported box (2.75cu ft if it will fit) I will get more bass at the same volume without adding power? I thought you got more pop and crisp response out of a sealed box and more doom-doom-doom radiating bass I guess you could call it out of a ported box. I also thought you could hear the sealed box around the boat better and the ported would have better sound at a further distance away. I'm not an expert so a bass box for dummies explanation would help educate me the best. Sorry Todd I'm kind of hijacking your thread.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-21-2014, 3:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabledog View Post
So if I change to a ported box (2.75cu ft if it will fit) I will get more bass at the same volume without adding power? I thought you got more pop and crisp response out of a sealed box and more doom-doom-doom radiating bass I guess you could call it out of a ported box. I also thought you could hear the sealed box around the boat better and the ported would have better sound at a further distance away. I'm not an expert so a bass box for dummies explanation would help educate me the best. Sorry Todd I'm kind of hijacking your thread.
A woofer is simply a piston that moves air. Hopefully it does so accurately. An enclosure is a baffle that isolates the front and rear radiation but also is a resonant chamber. You have some freedom in making it do what you want.
Here are the typical characteristics of each enclosure type.
Sealed:
Starts rolling off the deep bass at a higher frequency but also has a softer or more gradual deep bass roll-off.
Too large of a sealed enclosure is under-damped. It will generate deeper bass with a robust quality that is less obvious in some or most program material. A little dead sounding with less 'liveness' in the upper bass.
Too small of a sealed enclosure is over-damped. It may have a hump in the upper bass and may produce more peak output over a narrower bandwidth, or a bandwidth that is shifted higher. It sounds far more live but can also sound more singular in its tonal construction.
The key is to get the right balance. My preference is a final system (woofer loaded in enclosure) 'Qtc' of between 0.8 and 0.9.
Ported:
This can be manifest in a variety of ways to achieve several different purposes. You can have an SQ version or a SPL version.
In one version, more of an SQ model, a bass-reflex enclosure is intended to extend the deep bass response. A conservatively designed well-damped ported box will give you another one-third octave of bass extension before reaching its half power point. It will give you a 3dB boost in the lower bass. That's equivalent to doubling your amplifier power or doubling the woofer excursion. Not too shabby for adding a little space, wood and a port. This version can sound similar to sealed with a tight impulse response and good, defined, smooth tonal construction.
In another version, more of a SPL model, the bandwidth is narrowed and creates a far more pronounced boost in bass output. This is the version that gets the reputation as a bommy one-note special. It also leaves the deep bass less protected and you may see a great deal of wasted movement.
A bass-reflex enclosure will give you more deep bass extension and more deep bass output as compared to sealed, but, below the tuned bandwidth it rolls off much steeper. At a frequency that is low enough the system is essentially unloaded. In a good design this area is below most program material. It's a good idea to use a subsonic filter for this reason.
A bass-reflex enclosure has very little cone movement in the resonant area. The port does most of the work. Distortion is very low. At higher midbass frequencies the port contributes little and the cone generates most of the output. The combination of enclosure and port creates a phase shift so that the woofer output and port output are brought back into phase. However, in the process, the bass signal is slightly prolonged in the time domain. But remember, at any given frequency, it is either the port or woofer that is generating a majority of the output. Don't make too much of the group delay because you are mostly immune to it in a well designed ported subwoofer. When you look in the $100 class of high end home free standing speakers, a majority of these are bass-reflex, and these patrons will absolutley not accept bass that isn't extremely accurate. So much of this is in the design and execution.
Sealed is pretty easy to get right. Ported requires a bit more expertise.
The other attributes that you discribed for one or the other really are not accurate and caused by other factors besides 'sealed' or 'ported'. I doubt you would find those to be consistent from one system to the next. Tuning, loading differences in boat to boat, and many other individual execution factors are responsible. You can't over-learn a few limited exposures.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-21-2014, 3:59 PM Reply   
Btw, my posts are often filled with typos. But one worth correcting is I meant to type $100K....not $100. Slight difference.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-21-2014, 7:01 PM Reply   
VENTED BOXES SIZE VENT DIA. VENT LENGTH
BiG18D2 - SPL 4.1 3” x 12” 11.5”
BiG18D2 - NORMAL 6.75 2.5” x 12” 15”
BiG15D2 - SPL 2.5 2”x14” 18.5”
BiG15D2 - NORMAL 4.6 2”x12” 18.75”
BiG12D2 - SPL 1.6 2” x 6” 14”
BiG12D2 - NORMAL 2.1 2” x 8” 16.5”
Xi12/12D - SPL 1.6 4.0” 11.0”
Xi12/12D - NORMAL 2.2 4.0” 14.0”

SX12D - SPL 1.5 4.0” 10.5”
SX12D - NORMAL 2.25 4.0” 11.25”
SX12 - SPL 1.4 4.0” 11.0”
SX12 - NORMAL 2.1 4.0” 8.5”

Per exile they list two sizes for their ported, one for normal and one for SPL. I am not sure what SPL means. Not sure whether they are talking inside or outside dimensions either. Probably inside, which puts us right on the numbers you were mentioning.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-22-2014, 11:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoddio View Post
VENTED BOXES SIZE VENT DIA. VENT LENGTH
BiG18D2 - SPL 4.1 3” x 12” 11.5”
BiG18D2 - NORMAL 6.75 2.5” x 12” 15”
BiG15D2 - SPL 2.5 2”x14” 18.5”
BiG15D2 - NORMAL 4.6 2”x12” 18.75”
BiG12D2 - SPL 1.6 2” x 6” 14”
BiG12D2 - NORMAL 2.1 2” x 8” 16.5”
Xi12/12D - SPL 1.6 4.0” 11.0”
Xi12/12D - NORMAL 2.2 4.0” 14.0”

SX12D - SPL 1.5 4.0” 10.5”
SX12D - NORMAL 2.25 4.0” 11.25”
SX12 - SPL 1.4 4.0” 11.0”
SX12 - NORMAL 2.1 4.0” 8.5”

Per exile they list two sizes for their ported, one for normal and one for SPL. I am not sure what SPL means. Not sure whether they are talking inside or outside dimensions either. Probably inside, which puts us right on the numbers you were mentioning.
"SPL" means Sound Pressure Level so this would denote greater output. This term is often used to represent the maximum peak output, or greater output over a narrower bandwidth. Bass-reflex (ported) SPL alignments usually exaggerate an upper bass harmonic. They don't play as low and the bandwidth is sacrificed for greater output, at least over a narrower range.
Actually a larger ported enclosure is more efficient. A smaller ported enclosure is less efficient. A similar volume and length of port in a smaller enclosure will tune the enclosure resonance at a higher frequency and can be used to create a pronounced hump in the response. So in the case of an SPL version, you are not really increasing the overall effciency or sensitivity, rather you are boosting the output centered at a particular frequency. So the real advantage here is the smaller enclosure size. You can extend the port length in the smaller enclosure which will marginally increase the enclosure size but also provides deeper bass extension. You can't take this concept too far because eventually you would begin to diminish some of the inherent advantages of a bass-reflex enclosure.
"NORMAL" would denote a broader frequency response with deeper bass extension, but not necessarily with any less efficiency/sensitivity. In fact, the more averaged output could increase a little. The cost is increased enclosure size.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-22-2014, 8:32 PM Reply   
So, are there SPL and NORMAL versions of the sub? Or are we just talking about having a different box size?
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       03-23-2014, 7:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoddio View Post
So, are there SPL and NORMAL versions of the sub? Or are we just talking about having a different box size?
There's one version of the subwoofer and two enclosure versions offered.
However, with the available Thiele/Small parameters, and if you have a local installer with design & build experience, there are many other enclosure options. For the optimum results in any given boat you really need to begin with the size and dimensions of the boat cavity to be used for the sub/enclosure.
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-23-2014, 12:21 AM Reply   
Another vote for Exile! Brian is a great guy who just loves boats and audio. And he'll be the first to tell you when something is overkill for your application, even when it costs him incremental revenue.

In my last boat I did similar to your option 2, but with the old amps. I'll likely do the same with my new boat with the new gen amps.









Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       03-23-2014, 8:28 AM Reply   
Darrin did NWBS do your install?? looks nice and clean
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       03-23-2014, 3:46 PM Reply   
Yes I picked it out and they had it done. I'm doing the eq and cabin speakers myself. Thanks
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       03-23-2014, 4:25 PM Reply   
Sorry for hijack but are you a Husky football season ticket holder Darrin?

Go Dawgs and great looking V226.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       03-23-2014, 8:37 PM Reply   
Thanks Brett, No, wish I was a season ticket holder. The stadium is so much better now. Hoping for a good season with Peterson.

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