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Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-01-2014, 6:27 PM Reply   
Gathering gear for my new system. I will be using Arc Audio amps again and have a KS 1000.1 to power the sub. Would like at least a 12" 2 ohm sub this time so I can get a little more Bass and a little more out of the amp. Space is tight on the new boat so I have been thinking about using a sealed box this time VS ported but not sure which sub or type of enclosure to go with this time. Ideas or reccomendations??
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-01-2014, 6:56 PM Reply   
DC level2? Tried that yet? Always fun doing new things...
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-01-2014, 7:15 PM Reply   
no Ill take a look was looking at the sundown and RE audio units though. How is a sealed box going to compare coming from a ported unit??
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-01-2014, 7:53 PM Reply   
A more solid sound with less output outside of the boat, running same power. Airspace requirements? External of course?
Old     (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       02-01-2014, 8:35 PM Reply   
JL w6. Hits hard and still sounds good
Old     (BenHolloway)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-01-2014, 9:25 PM Reply   
look at c2 audio and incriminator audio the C2 threatcons are designs by the sundown team.... the DC stuff looks killer too
Old     (BenHolloway)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-01-2014, 9:40 PM Reply   
I wound up cheaping out and picked up a massive audio kilo, I'm building a ported box (right now actually) 1.74 cuft (after the port volume was taken away) and tuned it to 33hz. Something else to remember is that some subs perform better in smaller enclosures such as the DC's I think they recommend like a 1.5 cuft ported box volume which should be easy to build and fit. If your considering DC go with the lvl 3.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-02-2014, 7:42 AM Reply   
Maybe I can open some eyes here. Take the DC level 2 series of subwoofers for example. A 10", 12", and 15", all using the exact same motor, voice coil and spider? That is not speaker engineering. Not even close. That is just importing and assembling a bunch of China parts out of a catalog with a goal of keeping the cost low. There are easily two dozen versions of the same thing under different brands. You shouldn't be impressed with big magnets with polished conductor plates because that has nothing to do with performance. There are countless YouTube videos showing this type of woofer in action. They all sound horrific. "Blap, Burp, Brrrrrrr, Boooom." If musicality is important then avoid this group. Btw, paper cones absorb moisture in a marine environment.
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-02-2014, 7:39 AM Reply   
If he is porting I would concur with a level3 if sealed I still recommend the level2. There is a difference in mass between the two..

Ben, did you take into account bracing (if any) and sub displacement? These need to be in your calculation with port displacement buddy.
Old     (BenHolloway)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-02-2014, 9:18 AM Reply   
True I did, no bracing in the box... the enclosure started off at 2.14 net. this is my 1st box build and my only concern with the slot port was the width but it was fun building the box so if it doesn't work like i want it too i guess i can make another...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truekaotik View Post
If he is porting I would concur with a level3 if sealed I still recommend the level2. There is a difference in mass between the two..

Ben, did you take into account bracing (if any) and sub displacement? These need to be in your calculation with port displacement buddy.
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-02-2014, 7:46 AM Reply   
True what size sealed box does the level 2 require VS the ported box for the level 3??
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-02-2014, 7:59 AM Reply   
Dave what sub do you recommend?? I will be using an Arc KS 300.4 to power six wetsounds inboats, a Arc KS 600.2 to power four Rev 10's and a Arc KS 1000.1 to power a sub. This is all going in a new 226 and space for a sub behind the driver kick panel is limited
Old     (dp513)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 8:11 AM Reply   
i ran 2 w6s off that same amp. real real loud. i have them in my truck now.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-02-2014, 8:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by h20king View Post
Dave what sub do you recommend?? I will be using an Arc KS 300.4 to power six wetsounds inboats, a Arc KS 600.2 to power four Rev 10's and a Arc KS 1000.1 to power a sub. This is all going in a new 226 and space for a sub behind the driver kick panel is limited
Harold,
Quote, "....and space for a sub behind the driver kick panel is limited."
And that is precisely where you begin. First, and before anything else, detemine the exact maximum external enclosure displacement that you have under your driver's helm console, including whether or not you can modify, replace or move the kick panel for more room. From that, I would find the resulting internal displacement, and that info to a large degree would dictate the particular sub and specific loading method (sealed, bass-reflex). And, your available power is a factor too. The fine tuning in the subwoofer decision is what your primary objective is and how much in the way of other attributes you are willing to compromise in the process. So again, place the horse before the cart and begin with the boat & box.
I realize that a main goal is max output, particularly in the context of an open boat. That will mainly be a function of the woofer surface area.
However, an SPL woofer compromises linearity and bandwidth to get more peak output. In other words, it has more gain over a narrower range. Or, it is built to withstand more power and especially more abuse resulting in a giant increase in distortion and decrease in sound accuracy.
There is NO magic bullet. There is no true SPL woofer that is also a true SQ woofer despite all the sales rhetoric in the world. Listen to those RE, DC, Sundown, etc,etc, YouTube videos and decide if that is the sound that you are really after.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-02-2014, 4:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidAnalog View Post
Harold,
Quote, "....and space for a sub behind the driver kick panel is limited."
And that is precisely where you begin. First, and before anything else, detemine the exact maximum external enclosure displacement that you have under your driver's helm console, including whether or not you can modify, replace or move the kick panel for more room. From that, I would find the resulting internal displacement, and that info to a large degree would dictate the particular sub and specific loading method (sealed, bass-reflex). And, your available power is a factor too. The fine tuning in the subwoofer decision is what your primary objective is and how much in the way of other attributes you are willing to compromise in the process. So again, place the horse before the cart and begin with the boat & box.
I realize that a main goal is max output, particularly in the context of an open boat. That will mainly be a function of the woofer surface area.
However, an SPL woofer compromises linearity and bandwidth to get more peak output. In other words, it has more gain over a narrower range. Or, it is built to withstand more power and especially more abuse resulting in a giant increase in distortion and decrease in sound accuracy.
There is NO magic bullet. There is no true SPL woofer that is also a true SQ woofer despite all the sales rhetoric in the world. Listen to those RE, DC, Sundown, etc,etc, YouTube videos and decide if that is the sound that you are really after.
Harold,

This is the best advice right here ^^^^. Dont get too hung up on brands or models just yet. You need to know what you have to work with space wise. This will dictate the enclosure size, shape and type, which will influence which woofer will do best in those parameters. The field will be narrowed even further as you already have the amp.

I can name a half dozen quality sub brands/models and probably 2 dozen more brands that I have no experience with. It does little to help you this early in the game.
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-02-2014, 8:21 AM Reply   
yep, its definitely a car sub….. Many like it…. just throwing stuff out, its not my decision, I know H knows about Wetsounds, Kicker, JL to name a few so just throwing new brands at him. RE was another he was interested in, Im not here to make the decision, yet throw out options. He's a big boy and can do the research to determine if its a sub he would like. His response tells us wether its a contender in his mind and what he's looking for… They are a SPL sub for sure, sealed enclosure in a boat, I feel thats whats needed… just my homely opinion….. Honestly H, I woulda said W6 or XXXv2 slot ported, hands down for your boat, but you know about them and still asked the question
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-02-2014, 8:26 AM Reply   
yep was just wanting to look at all options. is a 1000 watts RMS enough for the XXXV2 ??
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 8:39 AM Reply   
I run Sundown SA12's in my boat and are hard to beat for the price, I've run one of them for over 4 years so they can take some abuse. Yes they are paper cones and the 10 , 12 , and 15 use the same motor. I wouldn't say they sound horrific as Dave mentions. I've ran jl 12w3 my friends have wet sounds xxx subs and in my opinion my boat sounds just as good. You got to remember your in a open air environment with exhaust , wind and plenty of other noises around. It's not like your in closed off home theater room.

Last edited by BradM07SS; 02-02-2014 at 8:40 AM. Reason: edit
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       02-02-2014, 8:54 AM Reply   
RE is not what it was 6-7 years ago. Imo the brand went downhill after being bought out.
On that note of RE, DC is what I run, not saying they are great, nor crappy BUT DC stand for "direct current" while most label it as "direct copy"
I used to run all RE in high school, I know, high school right?
BUT my local shop out of Reno was the largest seller/distributer of re. They also re coned etc when someone blew them up.
You happen to know who the creator of DC was? Take a guess. Yes the owner of that shop that dissected all of RE's stuff.
I personally run DC, on the principle that I am supporting a local guy that I know, get awesome deals, again they are local if I need anything, and they aren't too bad of a woofer. But they definitely aren't the pinnacle SQ woofer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 8:58 AM Reply   
Is it just me but how in the world do you listen to a youtube video to determine if a subwoofer sounds good. That's has got to be the worst advice, 99% of the time those videos are filmed with phones that the mics are distorting.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-02-2014, 9:07 AM Reply   
^^^^ Show me a good recoding. I can hear pitch accuray pretty well over my Altec computer speakers and sub.
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 9:13 AM Reply   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scx06TnxrVs

My old setup. Just inboats and subs playing, recorded with iphone. To me video doesn't come close of doing it justice.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-02-2014, 2:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scx06TnxrVs

My old setup. Just inboats and subs playing, recorded with iphone. To me video doesn't come close of doing it justice.
Clean appearance on the sub enclosure under the rear bench. Bass-reflex or bandpass?
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-02-2014, 9:38 AM Reply   
This is H, I believe he knows full and well he has the horse before the cart. He can't measure as the boat isn't built yet.. He is having fun online seeing others options they are running or recommend to kill time prolly...
Old     (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-02-2014, 9:55 AM Reply   
how about a 10w7? 1.25 sealed, 1.5 ported
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-02-2014, 9:57 AM Reply   
just want to know good options for the power I have. I will do what is needed to get it right. I have already bought the amps, the boat will come with wetsounds in boats and getting ready to order my rev 10's. Will most likely go with the XXXV2 and do whats needed to make it fit unless their is something better out there
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-02-2014, 10:09 AM Reply   
Harold,
I know from experience that the best performance will usually come from an application-driven design. So I am a little hesitant to recommend a specific sub without knowing what the available space will be. Since you already have a relationship with Odin from Earmark, you might get with him as soon as you get access to the boat. Odin is a very accomplished system designer and has all the design tools. I'll also be glad to help when that time comes.
Old     (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-02-2014, 10:09 AM Reply   
The 12w7v3 is a bad ass sub the slumps and sounds real good.
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 10:31 AM Reply   
If your going to run the XXXv2 I would recommend you run it in a ported enclosure vs sealed. Also the XXXv2 can only be wired at 1 ohm or 4 ohm. I would do 1 ohm to get the most out of the sub.
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-02-2014, 3:12 PM Reply   
Bass reflex tuned 34hz
Old     (Truekaotik)      Join Date: Jun 2012       02-02-2014, 5:25 PM Reply   
Well I think that's a bad way of telling someone their post is stupid... Maybe he wants options outside of professionals. It's apparent he has those connections and still chose to post. Some people just like options and talk while they wait for their new toy.. Humor the guy.... Talk about old set ups, current ones, ones you think would be nice you havnt tried.... This is obviously to hear others ideas in WW...
Old     (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-02-2014, 5:46 PM Reply   
Would you guys rather go 10" in a ported box, or 12" sealed? Idk how much room is under there, but if its limited Id think a 10" sub in a proper ported box would have more output than a sealed 12? May be way off but just wondering. Also where you fire the sub and port is a big factor into my box build for my A22. I went with a XXXv2 on a SD2 at 1250 watts. Im thinking of firing mine off of the hull if I can keep enough space between the sub/port and the hull.

A kicker L7 with enough power would have some solid SPL.
I had 2 13w7s in big ported boxes in my old boat, radiating directly into the cabin and it wasnt overly impressive IMO. I wonder how much more audible output I would have had if they were loaded off the floor or the hull?
I think it is Bruizza, that loves his RE audio sub, and they're fairly cheap compared to WS and JL.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 6:04 AM Reply   
[QUOTE=bryce2320;1863183]Would you guys rather go 10" in a ported box, or 12" sealed? Idk how much room is under there, but if its limited Id think a 10" sub in a proper ported box would have more output than a sealed 12? May be way off but just wondering. Also where you fire the sub and port is a big factor into my box build for my A22. I went with a XXXv2 on a SD2 at 1250 watts. Im thinking of firing mine off of the hull if I can keep enough space between the sub/port and the hull.

Bryce,
Every one of those questions and concerns are going to have variables and depend on the execution.
Provided the drivers are equal and equally optimized for sealed and ported, a bass-reflex 10-inch in a conservative well-damped alignment can hold a slight advantage in peak output over a sealed 12-inch. Or you can get a more noticeable increase with a more aggressive and peaky ported box but you are giving up too many other important qualities.
Boundary loading does improve the output unless the driver is so close to the adjacent surface that you reduce the radiating surface area and choke the output. Usually down-firing doesn't give you enough distance but certainly excites the sole of the boat. Side-firing typically allows a bit more separation and works better.
If boundary loading. the port and the woofer needs to be on the same plane and really increases the separation required between the baffle and hull surface.
Btw, if you had dual 13W7s ported and it didn't absolutely hurt you then it was NOT executed correctly. All it takes is one weak link. It can be a matter of box building, not enough input signal voltage, not enough supply voltage, and so on.
Old     (WLF)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-03-2014, 6:15 AM Reply   
I 100% agree with David...if a 13W7 doesn't impress you...something was seriously wrong. Dual 13W7's...forget about it, that would be insane...you'd have to have a pretty big boat though to have a ported box to fit dual 13's facing the same direction so you reach its full potential.
Old     (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-03-2014, 6:27 AM Reply   
I'm sure most have seen it, but if not here was my set up with a 1000/1 amp on each sub. Boxes were 3 cubic ft after displacement if I remember correctly, and they were pretty close to being on the same plane. It was loud, but I've never heard any one else boat so it's hard to compare. I thought it'd b more though. Not sure what I could have done different.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 7:11 AM Reply   
Bryce,
Everything appearance wise looks great including the fact that the two subs were reasonably close to the same depth and orientation. It should have been more than impressive. In fact, it should have been uncomfortable.
Old     (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-03-2014, 7:27 AM Reply   
I'm hoping my xxx boundary loaded, if possible, will come close to the w7. It'll have 250 more watts than the w7 on paper. I'm sure the 1000/1 put out way more than a 1000
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-03-2014, 9:11 AM Reply   
For some reason subs in boats never seem to be a loud as they should be. I've had 1 12, 2 12''s , 3 12's 2 15's and now 4 12's and it sill not that loud to me. RMS wattage range from 600 watts to 3370 watts now. I run 6 group 31 batteries so I got decent amount amperage

I had the same 4 12's and same amp in my Tahoe and it's night and day difference SPL wise.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 9:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
For some reason subs in boats never seem to be a loud as they should be. I've had 1 12, 2 12''s , 3 12's 2 15's and now 4 12's and it sill not that loud to me. RMS wattage range from 600 watts to 3370 watts now. I run 6 group 31 batteries so I got decent amount amperage

I had the same 4 12's and same amp in my Tahoe and it's night and day difference SPL wise.
Brad,
There are definite reasons for the difference between an enclosed car cabin and an open boat.
In each, the woofers are doing the identical work but the environment has a major impact.
Imagine a woofer/enclosure in open air. The air displaced by the woofer propagates and dissipates outward in a 360 degree 3D sphere. Now place the woofer/enclosure up against a wall. All the same energy is now propagated and dissipated outward in only a 180 degree sphere. All the energy, half the sphere, twice the focus. So add another 3 dB....equivalent to double the excursion and amplifier power. Now fold another wall around the woofer for another +3 dB. And another = another +3 dB.
In a car cabin you have the cabin effect. Below the longest dimensions of the cabin, and the corresponding frequency/wavelength, you will begin to pressurize the cabin, kind of like inside your sub box, and not just emit a wavefront. At frequencies lower than this point, you will begin to produce a rising positive cabin gain of 12 dB per octave. That's the equivalent of eight times excursion or eight times amplifier power....PER OCTAVE !!!
So in a boat you must take advantage of every bit of acoustic leverage you can and avoid all power-robbing phasing conflicts. And in particular, you do not tune a boat system like you do a car, truck or SUV, which is a very common error, even among pros.
Old     (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       02-03-2014, 9:14 AM Reply   
Bryce, I'm pretty sure the issue with your old set up was the box build. Yeah, you had everyone fooled with the pretty vinyl wrapped panels and quilted stitching for days but behind all that was version 2 of what you built here in your 4 Runner. Busted.

http://youtu.be/_9pUmzjKTzg

It's good to see that you abandoned the 'slant technique'.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-03-2014, 9:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houstonshark View Post
Bryce, I'm pretty sure the issue with your old set up was the box build. Yeah, you had everyone fooled with the pretty vinyl wrapped panels and quilted stitching for days but behind all that was version 2 of what you built here in your 4 Runner. Busted.

http://youtu.be/_9pUmzjKTzg

It's good to see that you abandoned the 'slant technique'.
Wow!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-03-2014, 9:31 AM Reply   
Everyone has a different opinion on what loud is, just keep that in mind! I've been in cars/boats and everyone just raves about how loud and how hard it hits and then I listen and don't understand what they are talking about as I wasn't impressed at all.
JL 12W7 in a 1.75 cu ft ported box sounds great with 1,000 watts. Great sound quality and it hits pretty dang hard. It is an expensive sub though.
I have a Kicker L712 with 1,200 watts in a ported enclosure and IMO it hits harder than the JL but I don't think it has the SQ that the JL does, but it is half the price.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-03-2014, 9:55 AM Reply   
When I competed in IASCA stuff back in the early/mid 90's, you could take the same sub and enclosure from whatever you had it in and put it in a freakin Honda CRX and it seemed like the output doubled! That little car was like it's own magic subwoofer box due to the shape. Boats seem to have the opposite like David is describing, seems like it's half instead. I built a box for a Boston SPG555 and I just did whatever their recommended specs were for the ported box and we put it in my buddy's boat and it sounded ok but nothing special. We then put it in his son's Montero and holy crap, I was blown away at how loud and clear that one sub was. I was so impressed with it in a car but not so much in the boat.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-03-2014, 9:55 AM Reply   
David, how do you tune it differently?
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 10:09 AM Reply   
Here is what I would recommend for anyone entertaining a new stereo system for their boat. Get with Odin at Earmark Marine. He is an authorized on-line dealer for both Wetsounds and JL Audio among other prominent brands. Why Odin? The support. Especially the technical support. Odin (in Plano) has been with Earmark since 1992 and has worked in installation, sales, purchasing and management. A musician since 1984, Odin combines his love for music with a technical understanding of audio extending beyond mobile and marine electronics. Odin, as a musician, has performed with local band Southbound since 1999, worked as the in-house sound engineer for hundreds of local and national touring artists at local music venue Hank’s Texas Grill since 2004 and collects and restores vintage amplifiers. With his vast mobile electronics technical experience and pro-sound background, Odin has an incredibly deep understanding of audio. He will guide his customers into the correct gear and walk his customers through every aspect of the installation. He can keep it basic for you or get into the more advanced aspects....whatever your personal tolerance or desire for technical is.
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-03-2014, 10:26 AM Reply   
Some of our local car/boat audio shops says in boat enviorment you can't hear under 35hz ? How true is that? Guess I could get some test tones and find out for myself but my boat is put up for winter.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 11:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
Some of our local car/boat audio shops says in boat enviorment you can't hear under 35hz ? How true is that? Guess I could get some test tones and find out for myself but my boat is put up for winter.
That's not true. You can develop 35 Hz in a boat. However, 35 Hz will be significantly down in output level. Why? Every time you go an octave lower it takes four times the excursion to reproduce that note at an equal amplitude. And as I pointed out above, bass energy tends to flash evaporate in a boat without the reinforcing compound planes. You are wasting precious energy trying to reproduce 35 Hz on par with 70 Hz but you will hear some decent 35 to 40 Hz up close. In respect to amplitude and real music, the meat of the bass is 50 to 80 Hz so it's critical that you perform very well in that area. Oftentimes in real music, particularly in bass, the first harmonic is going to be higher in level as compared to the fundamental. But don't ignore 35 Hz and start tuning your bass-reflex subs inordinately high. That's not the lesson you would take away from this discussion.
Old     (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-03-2014, 11:31 AM Reply   
I'm getting a new enclosure built right now by a highly reccomend speaker box builder. My enclosure is very similiar to wetsounds demo boat. 4 12's with 6" aero ports side firing. He recommend we tune the box to 38hz has having the ports side fire will lower the tuning a little.
Old     (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-03-2014, 11:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
I'm getting a new enclosure built right now by a highly reccomend speaker box builder. My enclosure is very similiar to wetsounds demo boat. 4 12's with 6" aero ports side firing. He recommend we tune the box to 38hz has having the ports side fire will lower the tuning a little.
The theory is sound and that could be true if the distance between the port baffle and hull surface is too short and the limited space represents the added resistance of a rigid air mass. Do you know how much it actually changes the tuning frequency without measuring the impedance curve with everything already loaded in the boat? Sounds like a crap shoot. I would rather there is adequate space and accurately tune the box resonant frequency independent of the boat hull. If possible, keeping the ports up high gets you farther away from the angled hull.

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