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Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-23-2011, 8:17 AM Reply   
The title says it all. I have a 19' supreme inboard that has been working fine for two seasons. Kids are learning great, wake to wake is ok. I have a fly high pylon extension which has worked out well. I am looking for the kids and myself to advance to the next stage.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-23-2011, 8:28 AM Reply   
I'd say tower. If you guys can get past the limitations of a small wake and learn tricks, it will help you immensely when you do move on to a bigger wake. Big wakes can make you lazy when it comes to getting pop.
Old     (phillywakeboarder)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-23-2011, 8:55 AM Reply   
I'd say it's a toss up. I grew up learning behind a 19 foot 1986 mastercraft, and I'll never forget (1) when we got a pylon extension; and (2) when we got a fat sac. Both made such a huge difference. Since you already have the extension, I'd probably go with a fat sac. The only caveat is if you are edging hard enough to pull the boat on its side drastically, which really changes the shape of the wake and makes it inconsistent, I'd go with a tower.
Old     (Nova)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-23-2011, 10:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeboardern1 View Post
I'd say tower. If you guys can get past the limitations of a small wake and learn tricks, it will help you immensely when you do move on to a bigger wake. Big wakes can make you lazy when it comes to getting pop.
This. The tower will reduce tipping as A-dub explained, and will help you progress more in the longrun. I've ridden off of 17 and 18 foot boats where the wake was plenty to get some good air. Fat sacs should definitely be added in the future, but behind the tower imo.
Old     (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
Thet flyhigh is getting you essentially the same tow point as a tower. Your next move should definately be bags.
Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-23-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
Eric you are right, at 6'-0'' 225# I do tip the boat. Any suggestions on a tower?
Old     (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 9:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisc4fun View Post
Eric you are right, at 6'-0'' 225# I do tip the boat. Any suggestions on a tower?
That tipping will not be improved by the addition of a tower. The distance off the water that the tow point is at is causing that torque or moment on the boat. (Force x distance) The tower is not changing that distance or force.
Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-23-2011, 9:23 AM Reply   
wont the tower displace that torque
Old     (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisc4fun View Post
wont the tower displace that torque
No. Unless the tower can increase the counter force from the water (aka increase the wetted surface), it is still going to have the same result. This is all assuming the pull from the boarder has only a horizontal component. If we add a downward force to the mix, technically the tower having its mounting position further off the center of the boat could cause more tipping. (In my eyes, the downward component is not nearly as great as the horizontal one, therefore not really a concern)

My point is small variations might exist going from the extended pylon to the tower, but it is not going to significantly decrease the tip of the boat. What the tower will do, is significantly decrease the amount of movement you see from your tow point. That will have a noticable effect while behind the boat, as will the space you gain from being able to put your boards and gear in board racks. I still say go with the bags first.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-23-2011, 9:31 AM Reply   
I would say bags first.

Tower and High Pole as far as a rider's POV is the same... its in the boat you see the big improvements such as must less in the way (stupid rope that goes to the front) and storage (board racks).

on an old boat, we sold our high-pole on ebay and it paid for a good chunk of our fat sacs... and you could try and talk to a marina/dealer and see if they have a deal if you buy a fly high tower and bags or something.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-23-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
... or you could just buy a newer boat with a tower and ballast - and is V-drive!.... mine is for sale in wisconsin *wink wink*
Old     (irishrider92)      Join Date: Jun 2009       08-23-2011, 9:35 AM Reply   
Towers and Poles will do the same. You'd still be tipping the boat either way. Look at the wake people land on after a trick and its always foamy and the wake they take off from is clean usually. Towers might reduce the tipping a little but I'd say go for sacs.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-23-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
If you already have a pole then get weight. The tower won't give you anything you don't already have.
Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-23-2011, 9:38 AM Reply   
nick, what would a 95 nautique super sport with a GT-40 be going for in wisconsin?( Don't change the subject)
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-23-2011, 9:43 AM Reply   
The tower will reduce tipping. You're moving from one tow point from the center of the boat, to one tow point off of 4 points on the boat. It will still dip with a tower, but not even close to as much. I experienced this when I moved from a Skylon to my New Dimensions Tower.

That said, you can find used ballast bags on various websites especially with the summer winding down for really cheap. Then if you're looking for the least expensive tower that would be a Monster Tower. Since you already have a Skylon, I'd get 1 bag, then move towards a tower.
Old     (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 9:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
The tower will reduce tipping. You're moving from one tow point from the center of the boat, to one tow point off of 4 points on the boat. It will still dip with a tower, but not even close to as much. I experienced this when I moved from a Skylon to my New Dimensions Tower.

That said, you can find used ballast bags on various websites especially with the summer winding down for really cheap. Then if you're looking for the least expensive tower that would be a Monster Tower. Since you already have a Skylon, I'd get 1 bag, then move towards a tower.
But how does moving from one tow point mount to four change the moment that is on the boat? (or the boats ability to handle that moment?)
Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-23-2011, 9:51 AM Reply   
A-dub I was thinking the same way you were that with the four points of connection it would change something. You suggested a one bag. Could you suggest a size and placement of bag? Thank You.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-23-2011, 10:03 AM Reply   
I had a 450lb in the back (where the back seat went) of my 19' inboard. Anything between 350-450lb is enough. There is also a fat seat that has similar poundage and offers a back rest if needed to use as a seat.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-23-2011, 10:07 AM Reply   
I don't know why, but I get more excited to see an old inboard with a Skylon/Extended Pylon than most of these new wakeboats. To me, those are the people riding because they love to ride, and are doing it for all the right reasons. Probably because I've been that person as well.
Old     (irishrider92)      Join Date: Jun 2009       08-23-2011, 10:35 AM Reply   
But if you get a couple sacs on either side in the middle, that'll also reduce lean from the tower, aswell as giving you a bigger wake
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-23-2011, 10:54 AM Reply   
A-dub's explanation of how a tower reduces tilt doesn't match up with the laws of physics.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-23-2011, 11:08 AM Reply   
whoops, didn't even notice that you had a fly high... hahaha. since that's the case I agree with other people, sacs first. We have a fly high pole on a 1990 direct drive supra for the wakeboard club at tech, and honestly, I can't tell the difference between it and a tower. that's just me though. And if you lurk on the wakeworld classifieds you can score sacs for pretty cheap sometimes...
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-23-2011, 11:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
nick, what would a 95 nautique super sport with a GT-40 be going for in wisconsin?( Don't change the subject)
17.5k before Sept. 18th... otherwise storage for the year.

How much extra in bags are you looking to get? I cleaned the garage the other day and know I have 2/3 extra sacs laying around... I offered them to the neighbor but I'm pretty sure they're still sitting in the garage - unless he has taken them this week.


If you have a local dealer that carries fly-high, I would call them and say I want XX XX XX bags and XX fly high tower and see what kind of deal they can get you... When we bought our bags/pumps we just made a list and asked what they could do for a deal or I was going to ebay - they gave us 40% off the whole purchase

Last edited by sidekicknicholas; 08-23-2011 at 11:28 AM.
Old     (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-23-2011, 11:44 AM Reply   
I had a 1986 ski nautique, 25th anniversary. Bought it from a guy that just cruised the lake in it, so no wake accessories at all when i got it. I found a used extended pylon at my local shop for $100 and scooped that up. Next was a trip to home depot for sand and then a stop by the military surplus store for legit sandbags. I put (4) 50lb bags under the rear seat and (3) 50lb bags in the bow of the boat. So that was 350lb for about $30. I ran a 550lb Launch Pad sac on each side of the motor box, slid slightly towards the rear seat and ran one 250lb fat buddy right behind the motor box. With 3-4 friends in the boat and the extra weight, I had a wake machine. I ran the pylon for about 2 years then upgraded to a tower basically to have board racks and tower speakers. The tower was nice, but not a necessity. The isleway behind the driver's seat isn't used for much of anything, so we just piled 3-4 boards up on top of sacks, so board storage in an direct drive isnt' that much of an issue to me. Small direct drives will get pulled back and forth whenever you cut out no matter if you have a pylon or tower, so don't buy a tower thinking its going to solve that issue, because it wont. I would consider 300 - 400lb of hidden sand in the boat to start with. Buy fat sacks if you want more weight, which you will. If you have the $ to spend on a tower right now, spend it on speed control (perfect pass or similar) instead. IMO it would be a much better wake accessory right now than a tower. If you are considering selling the boat, a tower with racks and speakers will help resale tremendously. You will get 100% of the cost of the tower back at the sale. Just my two cents as a past direct drive owner.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            08-23-2011, 11:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhyatt_ohp View Post
I had a 1986 ski nautique, 25th anniversary. Bought it from a guy that just cruised the lake in it, so no wake accessories at all when i got it. I found a used extended pylon at my local shop for $100 and scooped that up. Next was a trip to home depot for sand and then a stop by the military surplus store for legit sandbags. I put (4) 50lb bags under the rear seat and (3) 50lb bags in the bow of the boat. So that was 350lb for about $30. I ran a 550lb Launch Pad sac on each side of the motor box, slid slightly towards the rear seat and ran one 250lb fat buddy right behind the motor box. With 3-4 friends in the boat and the extra weight, I had a wake machine. I ran the pylon for about 2 years then upgraded to a tower basically to have board racks and tower speakers. The tower was nice, but not a necessity. The isleway behind the driver's seat isn't used for much of anything, so we just piled 3-4 boards up on top of sacks, so board storage in an direct drive isnt' that much of an issue to me. Small direct drives will get pulled back and forth whenever you cut out no matter if you have a pylon or tower, so don't buy a tower thinking its going to solve that issue, because it wont. I would consider 300 - 400lb of hidden sand in the boat to start with. Buy fat sacks if you want more weight, which you will. If you have the $ to spend on a tower right now, spend it on speed control (perfect pass or similar) instead. IMO it would be a much better wake accessory right now than a tower. If you are considering selling the boat, a tower with racks and speakers will help resale tremendously. You will get 100% of the cost of the tower back at the sale. Just my two cents as a past direct drive owner.
So ur saying w/ a 2001, to just use a flyhigh pole for now and ballast? I ask bc Im shopping for a 2001 and hae only been looking for ones with the FCT/new dimensions tower. To me the pole just looks odd and id have 3-4 boards to put somewhere.
Thats limited my search knowing the tower cost 2k. That might open up my search bc i do want that exact tower and throw racks and some wetsounds/exile hlcd speakers on it.
Old     (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-23-2011, 12:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
So ur saying w/ a 2001, to just use a flyhigh pole for now and ballast? I ask bc Im shopping for a 2001 and hae only been looking for ones with the FCT/new dimensions tower. To me the pole just looks odd and id have 3-4 boards to put somewhere.
Thats limited my search knowing the tower cost 2k. That might open up my search bc i do want that exact tower and throw racks and some wetsounds/exile hlcd speakers on it.
My reply was for older direct drives in general, using my 2001 ownership as an example. There is no right or wrong way to mod your boat - it all boils down to money and your preference. I was 18 at the time I had my 2001 and made do with what I had so I could to go ride. I would NEVER limit my search to 2001's with towers only. Just because it has a tower doesn't mean its structurally sound. Stringers are the big issue in those boats and way more than a $2k headache if they are bad. Aftermarket towers can be installed at any time on a boat and the design you want may cost $2k. Its just part of it. You figure your price range, find the best boat in that price range and add accessories down the road if needed. You hope for the whole package in a used boat, but alot of times it doesn't happen.

I guess what I'm saying is you can wakeboard just as well with a pole and ballast in a 2001 as you can with a FCT tower with wetsounds on it and ballast. Yeah the pole doesn't look that cool, your boards have to lay in the floor or on a sac behind the drivers seat and you cant hear music when you ride, but that didn't matter to me at the time. All i wanted was the biggest wake possible and the basic equipment to get me out there for the least amount of money. As I got more money, I upgraded tower, racks, speakers etc. But that was just fluff. I progressed more in those years behind the 2001 with a pylon than I ever have in my 11 years wakeboarding. I still miss that boat. The question is, do you want to ride or have the loudest 2001 with wetsounds on the lake? Whatever your priority is should come first.
Old     (lives2wake)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-23-2011, 12:45 PM Reply   
Definitely go with weight...no question about it. The tower wont make a difference if you have a high point already.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-23-2011, 12:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Next was a trip to home depot for sand and then a stop by the military surplus store for legit sandbags. I put (4) 50lb bags under the rear seat and (3) 50lb bags in the bow of the boat. So that was 350lb for about $30.
Our first boat was a home-made tower for $50 metal and we would use rubbermaid tubs filled with water - which was great because you could fill/empty in like 60 seconds... 4 tubs total (I think $10 each) - one on each side of the engine and two in the back.... then had ~250lbs of bricks in the nose. Cheap cheap setup and it worked.
Old     (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-23-2011, 12:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
Our first boat was a home-made tower for $50 metal and we would use rubbermaid tubs filled with water - which was great because you could fill/empty in like 60 seconds... 4 tubs total (I think $10 each) - one on each side of the engine and two in the back.... then had ~250lbs of bricks in the nose. Cheap cheap setup and it worked.
That is awesome. I actually did something similar to my parent's old 92 Prostar 190 when i was first learning. This was 1999-2000 and fat sacs were not easy to find at local shops here in Nashville. We got about 10 of these at walmart for $5 each and put them beside the motor box
Old     (wakeviolater)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-23-2011, 12:30 PM Reply   
+1 vote for bags first.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-23-2011, 2:40 PM Reply   
I learned pretty much all the basics behind a 19' Ski Brendella. We had a Ten foot Pole. I would tug that little boat all over the place, some one mentioned that the Tower and the Pole are the same. Not true. The guy we sold it to is still on the same lake, he tossed a tower on it. I have since gone out behind the old girl and the tower makes a much more true pull. What I notice is the pole will flex and you will loose some speed and wake shape as a result, much like using a nylon rope that is stretchy.

Here is the skinny, If you keep your boat on the Dock, weight is fairly easy, you donít have dish out a load of cash for fat sacs. I have used everything to slam a boat out, bricks, lead, water, sand, you name we used it. In my old Brendella, We put one 450lb sac in the back then used these Jugs below on the side of the engine I think we put 4 on each side. If itís a close bow boat you have to get some weight in the bow some how, you could easily use lead for that or a sac up there! We kept this boat on the doc, and put sand in the jugs, then filled them with water. They were stupid heavy like 125lbs each. We would keep them on the dock at night so we did put to much weight on the lift.

No matter what you do, just make sure your kids are progressing properly, you dont need a huge wake to learn and advance. Proper fundamentals are the key to learning the harder tricks later. Good solid roots will make for a fast learning curve later. I have taught lessons for 10 years, if you can clear the wake you can learn a backroll. That being said it doesnt mean you SHOULD learn a backroll. I preach fundamentals, all the 180's, switch riding, surface tricks, proper Ollie solid toeside, 1-wake tricks. Fundamentals first! Never going to learn a backroll to blind if you cannot do a solid bs 180 first. Never going to learn a BS 180 if you canít do an ollie bs 180, etc....................... You get the point.

Hope this helps some what.
Attached Images
 
Old     (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-23-2011, 3:09 PM Reply   
The only thing I have on the pylon vs. tower sway argument in this thread is that the older pylons were entirely too high. Take skylon's two piece pole for instance. Several people i knew ran these and they had two settings where the pole could be pinned at a high or low setting. Of course people used the higher setting because they thought it meant "more air". All it resulted in was retarded sway of the boat. Here's a pic of what I'm talking about on a mid 90's Sport Nautique:

I ran a one piece AirTime pylon that was 6ft tall. It didn't pull the boat over and performed better on my 2001 vs. the Monster Tower I installed later because the tow point was lower than the tower.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-23-2011, 8:57 PM Reply   
Is that Parks?
Old     (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-24-2011, 7:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
Is that Parks?
I do believe so. I pulled the pic off of google images. Looks like he's on one of his old free motion boards.
Old     (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       08-24-2011, 10:35 AM Reply   
bags, next question
Old     (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-24-2011, 12:09 AM Reply   
Does anybody remember briefly when there was a movement among the core riders to throw tricks off the low pylon just to show they could do it? Check out Necrason's section in Skurf's Up, which starts with him looping the rope over the low pylon, smirking at the camera, and then proceeding to throw down. I think that is the same section where he threw a raley over another boat. One of my first lessons was with Thomas Horrell and he had me go off the low pylon, Scott Jobe had me do the same. It helps force proper edging. Anyway, this all is irrelevant for you because you have an extended pylon, which gives you most of the lift you are looking for. The pylon will flex a bit as Andy pointed out, but you still will get the majority of your desired lift from it.

If you are worried about flex, most of the extended pylons have an adjustment point so you can lower them half way. The 10 Foot Pole cannot do this, but most of the others can. Oh wait, I guess Bhyatt just said the same thing. Even with a 1-piece pole, you could just cut it down a foot and see if that is enough, if not then cut 6 more inches and try again, etc...

I say go with the weight, no contest. When I travel back east, my only ride is behind my father-in-law's Prostar 190, which is probably one of the smallest wakes ever made by an inboard. It has an old-skool Skylon. I just went to Ambush and got 4 new sacks, total 1540 pounds in that little direct drive with Skylon. You won't mistake it for a big V-drive, but It's all good, plenty big for me working to get back my grabbed 3s.

If you have only one choice for now, this old timer says go for the weight.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            08-24-2011, 10:42 AM Reply   
I'd say bags too then
Old     (wisc4fun)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-24-2011, 4:40 PM Reply   
Everyone Thank you Thank You Thank you. All this information and explainations of reasons was a great help. Bags it is

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