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Old     (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-27-2011, 4:48 AM Reply   
The Arabs and Muslims aren't happy!



They're not happy in Gaza. They're not happy in Egypt. They're not happy in Libya. They're not happy in Morocco. They're not happy in Iran. They're not happy in Iraq. They're not happy in Yemen. They're not happy in Afghanistan. They're not happy in Pakistan. They're not happy in Syria. They're not happy in Lebanon.

And where are they happy?

They're happy in England. They're happy in France. They're happy in Italy. They're happy in Germany. They're happy in Sweden. They're happy in the USA. They're happy in Norway. They're happy in Australia. They're happy in Canada.

They're happy in just about every country that is not Muslim. And who do they blame for all this unhappiness?



Not Islam. Not their leadership. Not themselves.



THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!


The only religion that seems to despise and brutalise it's own followers. Along with everybody else of course.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-27-2011, 7:09 AM Reply   
to true.
Old     (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-27-2011, 8:32 AM Reply   
Troll much?
Old     (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-27-2011, 9:41 AM Reply   
Troll? You mean like the 8 years of anti-bush non sense that we had to put up with from you people?
Old     (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-27-2011, 10:18 AM Reply   
Yes. And what do you mean by "you people"? hahaha.

Last edited by bigdtx; 06-27-2011 at 10:20 AM.
Old     (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-27-2011, 10:51 AM Reply   
You people that think if we leave them alone they'll leave us alone. You know, like the agreement we have with the sharks when we swim in the sea.

Lol,long live multiculturalism. We can make it work.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       06-27-2011, 11:19 AM Reply   
Chris, you present a perceived problem, yet you offer no solution. What exactly do you want to do about it?

-Ship Muslims back to their respective country in which they were born? What if they were born in the US or the UK?
-Begin a "New Age Crusade"?
-Make all of the Muslims convert to CHRIStianity?
-Kill all of the sharks because WE choose to swim in their habitat?

I'm not sure how it works in the ole UK, but here in the US, citizens are guaranteed religious freedom by the Constitution.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-27-2011, 2:54 PM Reply   
Its an animalistic problem with no solution unless you are willing to join in the animalistic behavior. They are willing to do unspeakable things to many innocent people in order to affect the behavior of those they feel are guilty. It is a very good strategy, esp when dealing with an opponent who is not willing to do so. Look how much our daily lives changed in the last 10 years. In the end, only one cuture will win, and its the one willing to do anything to endure.

Native Americans had the same attitude toward the settling euros as we do extreme muslims. Tollerance of a culture bent on growing at their cultures expense.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-27-2011, 6:18 PM Reply   
The first post is so true. Reality bites. Its a miserable religion/culture. An virus that will likely never mutate into something more positive. Its a shame that that culture/religion sits on oil because oil is giving them power in dollars and numbers.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       06-27-2011, 6:26 PM Reply   
I was watching a documentary the other day on end times and found it interesting that everything written in the bible for end time prophecy is also mirrored in the Koran with one exception, what the Bible calls evil, the Koran calls good, the anti christ of the bible is a wolf in sheeps clothing, the Koran calls this person the savior, I also found it interesting that in the Bible it says whoever does not receive the mark on the hand or forehead will not be able to bye or sell. In the Koran if you do not take the Mark showing your allegience to Allah you can not bye or sell. Basically everything the Bible talked about was the polar opposite in the Koran. Maybe this one world religion in the end times will be Islam. Just saying the parrallels are incredible.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-27-2011, 6:50 PM Reply   
Muslims are not so much a problem here in the US. Our biggest problem is our politicians. They're destroying the country and trying to blame it on Muslims.
Old     (irishrider92)      Join Date: Jun 2009       06-28-2011, 2:55 AM Reply   
I think you're really looking at the deeply "devout to a point of madness" Muslims. I've met a good few muslims (from the middle east) that are nice, chill people, and I've seen some Christians that I felt shouldn't be allowed to pro-create. I agree yes that some Muslims aren't exactly model citizens of any society but to paint such a black and white picture that all Muslims, especially from the middle east area, are crazy is wrong.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-28-2011, 7:53 AM Reply   
^hit the nail on the head, Brian. Too many people lump all Muslims into one crazy extremist basket, and that's just not how they all are.

We all know Christians sure as heck can't be lumped into one basket. You've got normal folks, the super crazies and everyone in between. Same take the every word of the bible literally, and some maybe look at it more as a guide.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-28-2011, 8:04 AM Reply   
The OP's unintended irony is kindof awesome. To read the OP, it sounds like he's "blaming" Islam for the Libyan people trying to overthrow one of the world's most despotic dictators.

Using that same "logic" one could posit that Christians aren't happy in America because so many bible thumpers don't like Obama. Clearly the problem is Christianity, not politics.
Old     (Michael)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-28-2011, 10:34 AM Reply   
I have met alot of cool muslims, Bretts right you cant lump them into one basket. These are muslim extremests. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLwRg3erm4
Old     (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-28-2011, 10:36 AM Reply   
My perception may be off but it seems to me both religions are slowly declining among the masses. Sure you still see and hear about the zealots from both sides but the general populace around the world seems to be loosing interest in religion and focusing more personal freedoms and their own well being. When I watch the news it feels as though those in power are intent on convincing the masses that both sides are inherently evil and they are the only ones that are able to protect us from us.

Is it just me or are others much more concerned with the politicians in power than the Muslim / Christian living next door?
Old     (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-28-2011, 11:13 AM Reply   
Cliff, Islam is definitely NOT on the decline. In fact you are not allowed to leave once you are in. Converting to christianity is punishable by death. The irony is that they march in the streets throughout Europe screaming for all of manner perceived slights to be righted yet the countries they hail from squash any such demonstrations with brutal intolerance.

I went on a muslim website in the UK and asked them, if they found our way of life so abhorrent why do they not return to their homeland? Their answer - they see Britain or any non islamic country as a stumbling block to Islam and their job was to convert these countries to Islam. By any means possible. How do you reply to that??

Also why is it that when any terrorist attack or atrocity is commited we never,ever hear of a group of "moderate" muslims speaking out to condemn their misguided brothers. Why??

When that idiotic so called christian preacher in Florida burnt the Koran a group of "moderate" muslims in some muslim village in Afghanistan attacked the UN headquarters and slaughtered and beheaded close to a dozen workers, including women. Not their fault, it's the preachers fault. That's how stupid people have become.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       06-28-2011, 11:23 AM Reply   
Hmmm I guess every time I hear someone comparing the Christian Faith to Islam and linking the 2 together it makes me wonder if you have a brain, or if you do, do you know how to use it?

All one has to do is examine the beginning of the religions. Jesus was blameless, he lived a sinless life, he lived a selfless life, he came to give his life, he healed, he forgave, he came to die and yet the grave could not hold him.

muhammad left his family, raped and pill-edged wherever he went, forced his beliefs on people or threatened to kill them. For anyone to even try and compare these 2 men and lump them into the same mold is just ignorant. What did muhammad do for you? Absolutely nothing, he lived for himself and only for himself. What did Jesus do for you? He humiliated himself by becoming human for 33 years, leaving heaven and all it's glory so you and I could be saved. Millions of Islamic followers the true worshipers of Islam are willing to rape kill and destroy you, when was the last time you went into a restaurant and saw 4-5 guys having a Bible study and got nervous because you thought they were going to blow the place up? The answer is never!!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee, Islam is EVIL from every angle. The Muslims you and I know who are good people do not truly follow the book, just like most Christians never read their Bible. If all Muslims followed the Koran like the true Muslims, God help us cause the world would be a battle ground.. If all Christians followed Jesus example the world would be an incredible utopia.

So before you go throwing around ridiculous statements about both religions try using your head for once.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-28-2011, 11:35 AM Reply   
Well flight, that's if you believe in all the religious mumbo jumbo about Jesus. He may have just been a con artist or delusional.

I brought up both religions in my post because there are extremists and whackos and then the 'normal' folks in almost any religion.
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-28-2011, 11:56 AM Reply   
Well, for both Christianity and Islam the fundamentalist have actually read and studied the books and guess what? They are right. Let's not forget the story of Christianity and all the evil that went along with it. Look no further than the Leviticus, deuteronomy, and genesis. Barbarism. Luckily, most of us don't take the bible literally so it's not a problem.

Someone mentioned that religions are a bit of a dying breed.. that is true. It's becoming more and more difficult to convince a well educated human that (for catholics) the holy spirit impregnated the virgin Mary an she gave birth to Jesus the son of God. How does one reconcile the virgin birth with basic biology? You can't.

Last edited by strife; 06-28-2011 at 11:58 AM.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       06-28-2011, 12:45 PM Reply   
Yup, and we all came from nothing right? Just happened? all the planets aligned oh wait there were no planets hmmm...ok one day the lightning struck oh wait where did the lightning come from? Oh well billions of years went by and we all know if given enough time life can begin on it's own. Oh wait our most brilliant scientists still haven't figured that out yet ohhh K. Yeah then some how that life takes on intelligence and some how grows into a human with eyes, ears a reproductive system and all the other incredible things it takes to make up the human anatomy. Yeah it's getting harder and harder to convince the educated that there is after all a God. The further we get away from God the worse society becomes, thats a fact. If you took the DNA in just one human body and stretched it out, it would go to the moon and back. Every strand of that DNA is a code and instruction. That didn't just happen, it was put there. It was how we were made.

Anyone who believes we came from nothing and evolved over time (Cause we all know if we have work to do but never do it, in time it will get doen on it's own) is a moron in the highest degree.
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       06-28-2011, 11:12 AM Reply   
Politicians WANT us to worry more about what the neighbors are doing than what the politicians are doing. It is their bread & butter.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-28-2011, 11:33 AM Reply   
I couldn't care less what people were doing thousands of years ago. And if Muslims want to convert everyone, I say good luck to that.

Here's the coffee.... People who respond to the fear mongering are a bunch of trained dancing monkeys. If I'm really afraid of some country getting me, then I'll support the govt f**king them up. But I'm not. I was never afraid of Saddam and I'm not afraid of the Taliban. They can do whatever the F they want in their country, but if they harbor terrorists then we can clean their clock and leave w/o reparations. After they pick up the pieces once or twice then they'll probably find something better to do with themselves.

And Muslims in the US can obey the law just like everyone else.
Old     (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-28-2011, 1:03 PM Reply   
Anyone who believes we came from nothing and evolved over time (Cause we all know if we have work to do but never do it, in time it will get doen on it's own) is a moron in the highest degree.

You have some anger issues. Are you seeing someone for that?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-28-2011, 1:17 PM Reply   
We all know that we couldn't have just happened. So we had to have come from something that just happened. And the proof is that our stupid scientists don't have the answers. Because we all know that stupid people should have all the answers. That's why we look to the church to provide us with the truth.
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-28-2011, 1:20 PM Reply   
Flight007, you are ignorant that's all. Imagine where this world would be if everyone thought like you. That is to say, if you can't figure something out you invoke "God" because it's unexplainable. Like I said ignorant. What's next, are you going to tell us the earth is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs never walked the planet? Based on your logic, where did God come from? Do you know how a rabbit eats? That alone is enough to convince me that there is no such thing as "intelligent design" . Further more, have you any idea how many people die every year from choking to death? If we were intelligently designed I think God would have created a separate breathing and eating hole in our body. It's not too much to ask, whales do it. What about a salamander? They lose a leg, it grows back but the human man, he's not so lucky. Time for you to enroll in your local community college bud.

Last edited by strife; 06-28-2011 at 1:24 PM. Reason: typo
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-28-2011, 1:28 PM Reply   
@Flight007,

Quote:
The further we get away from God the worse society becomes, thats a fact.
Oh, and please show me a source for that fact because I know for a FACT that you pulled it out of your arse.
Old     (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-28-2011, 1:53 PM Reply   
"Hmmm I guess every time I hear someone comparing the Christian Faith to Islam and linking the 2 together it makes me wonder if you have a brain, or if you do, do you know how to use it?"

"So before you go throwing around ridiculous statements about both religions try using your head for once."

"Jesus was blameless" You on the other hand...

My thoughts were my take on the current state of affairs. In no way did I levy opinion in favor or dissatisfaction of either religion. If however, your scathing response inclusive of personal insults are representative of your beliefs, I'll pass.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-28-2011, 2:40 PM Reply   
I have an idea, instead of talking about the OP, lets argue about how obviously true two opposing faith based religions are, which by definition cant have any obvious truths.

You cant successfully fight terrorism with anything but terrorism. You either destroy it with greater terrorism, or you dont fight it and hope attrition causes it to die from within. The reason muslims are moving to other countries is because the modern flow of information is making extremism less popular among the youth of middle eastern countries. These other countries have their assimilation instrructions written right into their own law. Muslims need not use force, they merely immigrate and vote sharia law into effect. Big problem in Europe right now. How does a country that doesnt want confrontation and wants everything to be fair, stop this from happeneing?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-28-2011, 2:48 PM Reply   
^Not by starting wars in Muslims countries, then taking responsibility to put them back together, and destroying the own economy in the process.

You seem to think it's some forgone conclusion that Muslims are going to overrun the country, walk all over the Constitution, then run the country with Sharia Law. That's total bulls**t. We're perfectly capable of walking all over the Constitution and creating draconian laws ourselves. We are our own worst enemy. Not the Muslims.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-28-2011, 3:09 PM Reply   
I look forward to seeing a wake boats filled with chicks in burqas cheering on their boys wearing competition suicide vests.
Old     (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-28-2011, 3:17 PM Reply   
Some people obvious don't know what has happened in England, where Shria law is now accepted and their laws can not and will not deal with the outward hatred by the Muslims to their host country. They are a victim of their own liberalism. Don't ever say it could not happen. We have people on this board alone that thinks that saying the pledge of allegiance is a bad thing and we are children of the world and not the USA. We have people on this board that thinks it is perfectly fine that illegals can come into the country and that we are wrong for wanting to do anything about it. These things were considered fear mongering 40 years ago because it could never happen. Look at it now. We even have laws on the books against some of these things and half of the people will not even consider enforcing the laws because of votes. Don't tell me it can not happen.

In regards to the religious aspects, Islam was born of violence. Only reason muslims are not doing more in mass is because they are social muslims. Do not overlook how evil it is. On this if we would have just left them alone and they would not have done anything to us is a complete liberal cop out.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-28-2011, 3:25 PM Reply   
Delta, that's what I said. We are our own worst enemy. You don't need to be afraid of Muslims. They are easy to deal with. We could have been in and out of Afghanistan years ago. And we never should have been in Iraq. Fear mongering is how we got in this mess in the first place. All it takes is someone like you who is afraid of the evil, and the next thing you know the Constitution is laid to waste.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-28-2011, 6:47 PM Reply   
I know many muslim people and one thing about the "moderates" is that they are all in the end sympathetic to extremist cause. They may not blow a building up or think it is a good idea but in the end if it is supporting the free world or supporting the muslim extremist they all lean to the extremist. Look at the numbers on birth rates of these people. They are populating the earth at a much much quicker rate than any other ethnicity or religion. It is not a matter of if they over run us but just win. And it wont be violent, it will be slow and peaceful. They will keep growing in numbers until they can have an impact in elections and they will vote themselves into power and institute their own laws.

even firefox is jumping on the muslim bandwagon. i have the spell check on my firefox and if you type muslim it adds a red line under it, if you type is Muslim there is no red line. christian has no red line.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-28-2011, 9:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlangston13 View Post
Look at the numbers on birth rates of these people. They are populating the earth at a much much quicker rate than any other ethnicity or religion.
You clearly haven't been to Utah.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-28-2011, 9:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
You clearly haven't been to Utah.
the large mormon families in utah does not make up for the rest of the race.

its kind of like that movie idiocricy....

also atheism is basically a religion as well. it takes faith to believe non proven theories. the difference is if a christian is wrong. no big deal. if an atheist is wrong, its a every big deal for them. simple as that. i dont care what other people choose to believe either way. yall are all adults and can make your own decision and i am sure yall know plenty about all religions. i dont force my beliefs on you and call you names and i respect the same in return
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-28-2011, 11:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
All it takes is someone like you who is afraid of the evil, and the next thing you know the Constitution is laid to waste.
As opposed to embracing evil like libera.....never mind.
Old     (tings00)      Join Date: Aug 2005       06-29-2011, 6:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
You clearly haven't been to Utah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlangston13 View Post
the large mormon families in utah does not make up for the rest of the race.
I have some work to do. I didnt know people were counting on us Utahn's to build up a peaceful army to counter the muslim growth rate. I better take the day off I only have 2 kids.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-29-2011, 7:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlangston13 View Post
also atheism is basically a religion as well. it takes faith to believe non proven theories.
Please tell us about connection between atheists and unproven theories. AFAIK the basic definition of atheist is believing there is no God. At best that equates to one theory.

So are you trying to say atheism is a religion that believes in the unproven theory of no god?
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-28-2011, 7:55 PM Reply   
Jesus had it right when he called his followers "a flock" Baaaaaaaaaaah. IMO Religious types don't have the ability to think for themselves, otherwise they would be atheists!
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-28-2011, 9:15 PM Reply   
Its ironic that the same folks obsessed with our creation will likely be the same folks that drive us to our extinction.
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-29-2011, 6:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
also atheism is basically a religion as well. it takes faith to believe non proven theories.
I appreciate that you don't proselytize. However, let me correct you. For lack of better term, Atheism(I personally like Secular Humanist) is not a religion. Religion requires dogma, physical structures (aka Churches), books often known as the bible, worship to a higher power, etc.... Look up the definition of Religion in a dictionary and then see if atheism fits. It's NOT a religion.


Quote:
it takes faith to believe non proven theories
Let's not forget the definition of faith. Strong belief for which there is no evidence. Now, if you were scientifically literate you would know that Theories require empirical evidence. That's information that is gained from observation and experiments that can be verified by any third party. I wanted to clarify that because often people mix up hypothesis with theory. You wouldn't argue the theory of gravity, circuit theory(enabling you to use your computer right now), or the germ theory of disease would you? There is no faith required to believe in theories. That's not to say scientists are always right but wishful thinking won't change the science books.

Last edited by strife; 06-29-2011 at 6:55 AM. Reason: Response to faith and theories
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-29-2011, 7:49 AM Reply   
No price too high when it comes to the US adopting Muslims....

http://news.yahoo.com/u-cost-war-lea...110411362.html


Last edited by fly135; 06-29-2011 at 7:52 AM.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-29-2011, 8:27 AM Reply   
a theory cannot be proven, the amount of evidence supporting things like the big bang theory is not sufficient to prove that it ever happened. There is arguably just as much evidence supporting Christianity as there is supporting things like the big bang theory.

re·li·gion
   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

"usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs" means it does sometimes but does not have to. the beginning is the main part of the definition; "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". I guess I was wrong in saying atheism is a religion because I reckon not believing in anything does not fall under this, but if you believe in what the scientist are calling the "big bang theory" or other like theories than that can by definition be considered a religion.

As far as the theory of gravity goes, I was unaware that gravity was a theory since it can be proven again and again in controlled experiments, same with germs and computer circuits. And saying that one does not believe in one theory does not mean that the same person cannot believe in other theories. that is like saying if you believe one spiritual based religion you have to believe them all and if you do not believe in one spiritual based religion then you cant believe in any of them.

I any case I am not here to make you believe something you choose not too. I don't really care what you believe as long as you don't try and shove the big bang theory down my throat or any other belief system you can believe what you want. However the ridicule on here of religion is somewhat astounding and it is as if you were trying to shove atheism in the face of spiritual people.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-29-2011, 8:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlangston13 View Post
a theory cannot be proven, the amount of evidence supporting things like the big bang theory is not sufficient to prove that it ever happened. There is arguably just as much evidence supporting Christianity as there is supporting things like the big bang theory.
If a big scientific breakthough came out today that said the Big Bang theory was superceded by a new theory based on new findings then everyone who "believed" in the possibility of the Big Bang theory would just drop it and adopt the new one as the best available theory.

Can you say that about your religion?

Didn't think so... That's why science isn't like religion. In fact there is nothing in the Big Bang theory or any other scientific theory that dispute or affirm the existance of God. God is irrelevant to science. You can believe in both if you want.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       06-29-2011, 8:49 AM Reply   
"the amount of evidence supporting things like the big bang theory is not sufficient to prove that it ever happened"

But I believe the evidence many religious zealots want is for a person to go back in time, 4 or 5 billion years ago, with a video camera and record the big bang and then share the video on the 700 Club. The universe is continuously expanding, that seems like good proof to me. What's to say that God did not start the big bang and the Bible just leaves out some of the gory details (a few billion years of nothingness)?
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-29-2011, 9:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
the amount of evidence supporting things like the big bang theory is not sufficient to prove that it ever happened.
Your big bang comment shows how little you know about science. The big bang theory is one of the best theories we have. There is so much evidence for the big bang theory that it's pretty much known as FACT in the scientific community.

Quote:
There is arguably just as much evidence suporting Christianity as there is supporting things like big bang theory
You cannot be honest with yourself and make that statement. That is an outright lie only believed by children who were indoctrinated into a religion before they could think for themselves.

Jeremy makes a great point when he says,
Quote:
If a big scientific break though came out today that said the Big Bang theory was superceded by a new theory based on new findings then everyone who "believed" in the possibility of the Big Bang theory would just drop it and adopt the new one as the best available theory.

Can you say that about your religion?

Didn't think so... That's why science isn't like religion. In fact there is nothing in the Big Bang theory or any other scientific theory that dispute or affirm the existance of God. God is irrelevant to science. You can believe in both if you want.
However, I would disagree with believing in both. Religion contradicts almost everything we know about science. Now, if you want to say you believe in a GOD then OK. That makes more sense then the religions who claim to know things that they cannot possibly know.

It seems a bit short sighted for Christians to be criticizing Muslims considering their own religions history.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-29-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
Jimmy, I don't have a supernatural bone in my body but I could certainly see how someone could believe in the basic Christian religion without trying to use a literal translation of Bible stories to refute the Big Bang and Evolution. There is really nothing about either that dispute Christianity.

It would be easy to say I believe in the general Christian principles but have no idea how God created the world. It's only those that fear the explanations of science will remove the need for God to explain existance that are having a problem with science.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-29-2011, 3:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
If a big scientific breakthough came out today that said the Big Bang theory was superceded by a new theory based on new findings then everyone who "believed" in the possibility of the Big Bang theory would just drop it and adopt the new one as the best available theory.
This is why scientific "fact" is no more certain than religious belief and shouldnt be argued as such. Doesnt that call into question the credibility of the scientific community if what they know as certain truth is only right until proven wrong? Doesnt logic say they were not right to begin with and their certainty was based on "faith" in someone elses bad interpretation of the facts?

This is why debates about the origin of the universe are lame. No matter what you subscribe to, your guess about the origin of the universe is just as valid as anyone elses. Its like debating who would have won the world series in 1902? No matter what facts you think you have, you cannot accurately conclude the outcome of a game that was never played. I doubt anyone has it right.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-29-2011, 3:57 PM Reply   
Jason, you are wearing ownership goggles.

Good scientists present their "ideas" as today's theory every day.
Good preachers present their "beliefs" as the absolulte truth every Sunday.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-29-2011, 4:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
This is why debates about the origin of the universe are lame. No matter what you subscribe to, your guess about the origin of the universe is just as valid as anyone elses. Its like debating who would have won the world series in 1902? No matter what facts you think you have, you cannot accurately conclude the outcome of a game that was never played. I doubt anyone has it right.
But the difference is it is quite acceptable for an atheist to answer the question with an honest answer ie "I don't know"
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-30-2011, 7:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
This is why scientific "fact" is no more certain than religious belief and shouldnt be argued as such. Doesnt that call into question the credibility of the scientific community if what they know as certain truth is only right until proven wrong? Doesnt logic say they were not right to begin with and their certainty was based on "faith" in someone elses bad interpretation of the facts?
No, not at all. In case you haven't noticed Science has refined it views and beliefs, and made new discoveries over the course of time. Religion has discovered nothing new and remains stagnent. That is the pudding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
This is why debates about the origin of the universe are lame. No matter what you subscribe to, your guess about the origin of the universe is just as valid as anyone elses.
Well for someone with your philosophy it's lame. But for people who continue to seek knowledge it's not. Science has never been about "know everything now and look no further". That's the motto of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
I doubt anyone has it right.
You can rest assured that you never have it right if you don't strive to find out.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-30-2011, 8:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
No, not at all. In case you haven't noticed Science has refined it views and beliefs, and made new discoveries over the course of time. Religion has discovered nothing new and remains stagnent. That is the pudding.
Actually that is not true. The mormon religion had new discoveries through 1827 by Joseph Smith Jr. I know some of you will say that 170 years ago is not recent but it is a far cry more recent than 2000 years ago.

And prophecies are not that impressive if they are come up with as things happen. It is a lot cooler to see something come true that was predicted thousands of years ago!

In any case, I am not here to tell anyone what to believe, you believe as you wish but please don't bash the Bible and as well as different religions just because you don't believe in them and I wont bash you for not believing.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-29-2011, 4:42 PM Reply   
Scientist have to display inconclusive thoughts or ideas as theories otherwise they are bad scientists. If a preacher preached about believing in God and Jesus and the whole 9 yards but said I am not 100%, I may be totally wrong. then that person is a bad preacher.

I understand the basis of your argument but it is kind of silly non the less. There are plenty of christian scientist who study science and everything thing else, be a christian or a believer in God or the Bible does not make you an idiot contrary to popular belief, this is in fact why most preachers have a doctorate degree.

When it comes to how the earth was made and how everything started I really have no idea how it happened, way to complex for me and quite frankly I really don't care. It doesn't affect my life one bit but who's to say that the Big Bang wasn't Gods tool to start the universe? It is all too complex and you can't totally ignore scientific findings that are proven as fact and christians who do that are kind of loony I admit. That is why I think a lot of the conservative politicians who take the ultra religious stance on everything do more harm to the conservative party than good.

"If a big scientific breakthough came out today that said the Big Bang theory was superceded by a new theory based on new findings then everyone who "believed" in the possibility of the Big Bang theory would just drop it and adopt the new one as the best available theory.

Can you say that about your religion?

Didn't think so... That's why science isn't like religion. In fact there is nothing in the Big Bang theory or any other scientific theory that dispute or affirm the existance of God. God is irrelevant to science. You can believe in both if you want. " - John Anderson

this is your opinion or interpretation, that doesn't make it right and God is not necessary for a religion according the definition i posted.

i find it very interesting how hard some you are trying to debunk Christianity, what ever happened to freedom of religion?
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       06-29-2011, 6:25 PM Reply   
I have know idea why people would knock the Bible as an out dated book. If you look at the History recorded in it's pages, it is 100% accurate. Archeology has never disproven the Bibe, only showed it's authenticity when it comes to historical facts. For years it was thought the earth was flat when all anyone had to do was read scripture Isaiah 40 22 where it talks about he sits upon the circle of the earth, other translations say sphere but you get the picture. In fact we have bno other book in antiquity that is as complete and untouched as the Bible. With over 24000 manuscripts it stands alone as the most preserved book in history, something most people don't know.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-29-2011, 11:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by poser007 View Post
I have know idea why people would knock the Bible as an out dated book.
Because it was written 2000yrs ago and we have learn't a lot about how the universe works over the last 2000yrs.....
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       06-30-2011, 6:35 AM Reply   
"only showed it's authenticity when it comes to historical facts. For years it was thought the earth was flat when all anyone had to do was read scripture Isaiah 40 22 where it talks about he sits upon the circle of the earth, other translations say sphere but you get the picture"

What happened to Galileo what he publicly announced that the Earth revolves around the sun?
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-30-2011, 7:36 AM Reply   
"What happened to Galileo what he publicly announced that the Earth revolves around the sun?"

Oh, remember that was the evil Catholics that did that and had nothing to do with all the regular Christian do-gooders around the world at the time. Somehow Catholics aren't to be lumped in with 'regular' Christians.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-30-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
There probably would be more Flight but most of the Christian church burned anything that was paigan and wasn't Christian for that matter. No where except the bible does anyone ever mention this "Jesus" that roamed the earth. If there was such a person then I'm sure the Romans would have known about it and documented it somewhere. Most religions are based on the worst game of telephone ever played and stole quite a lot of things from paigan and egyption beliefs as well as others. There are only wars because of religion so to say our society is worse off because more don't follow the bible is absolute crap! If you didn't believe or convert to be Christian because you were paigan you were killed. The bible is based on faith.....not truth. I, as you can tell am not religious and I have no problem with the people that are. The problem I do have is most religious people aren't allowed to think or question the bible because the bible couldn't be wrong. If you are all right then how come there are so many interpretations of it with different views and apparently non of these different goups are wrong either? Christians and any other religion loves everybody......as long as you believe what they believe. That's is what is wrong with our society! Religion is supposed to be about leading a good life and being good to others. I don't need a "house of god" to know that. I have my church...it's a calm lake all to myself!
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-30-2011, 9:16 AM Reply   
Tell us about the new discoveries by Joseph Smith. Best I can tell...

Science - Discoveries are too numerous to list.
Religion - Zero since thousands of years ago when religion incorporated a moral guide wrt health, food, society.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-30-2011, 2:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Jason, you are wearing ownership goggles.

Good scientists present their "ideas" as today's theory every day.
Good preachers present their "beliefs" as the absolulte truth every Sunday.
Ideas and beliefs are both opinions, not facts, therefore neither should not be presented as fact.

Quote:
No, not at all. In case you haven't noticed Science has refined it views and beliefs, and made new discoveries over the course of time. Religion has discovered nothing new and remains stagnent. That is the pudding.
That is exactly the proof that science isnt certain of the truth. Reserving the right to be wrong is the same as saying we dont know if we are right. When you are guessing at the unknowable, all answers are on equal footing whether its gods, Big Bangs, or FSMs.

Quote:
But the difference is it is quite acceptable for an atheist to answer the question with an honest answer ie "I don't know"
athiest yes, scientist, not so much. Heck even the religious openly call their belief "blind faith".

Quote:
You can rest assured that you never have it right if you don't strive to find out.
Real science says we do not know the answer until the correct answer is found. Thats why you strive. Your science seems to say that we will call this answer the correct answer, whether it is right or not, until the correct answer is found, as admitting we do not know puts us on equal ground with every other human with a guess.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-30-2011, 8:00 PM Reply   
People have done horrible things all throughout history in the name of God and Jesus. I think westboro baptist church is a prime example of how people hide behind religion to spew massive amounts of hate. I do not believe the people of westboro to be christians nor do I believe that the crusades were very christian. I think the crusades were an excuse for a power grab. The catholic church does have a history of being corrupt but it does not mean all catholics are corrupt or all churches are. My g/f is catholic and I have been to mass with her and she and the people she worships with are good people, mass is a little weird but they all seemed to be good people.

To be Christian means to be Christ like aka Jesus Christ. Since Jesus loved everyone and treated no one bad and was sinless then to be a Christian means to strive towards the same thing, however that is unattainable due to the fact that humans are imperfect which if why we believe that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice to make up for our imperfection.

In short even if you dont believe the whole son of God and dying on the cross bit true Christianity teaches love for your neighbor and charity, which is why I believe people tend to say "If we would get back to being a Christian nation the country would be better off." Not because everyone would have the same beliefs but because part of the foundation of being a Christian is treating others, no matter what their religious affiliation, with love and respect.
Old     (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       07-01-2011, 7:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Not because everyone would have the same beliefs but because part of the foundation of being a HUMAN BEING is treating others, no matter what their religious affiliation, with love and respect.
Fixed your quote.
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       07-01-2011, 7:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce_bronkite View Post
Fixed your quote.
wouldnt it be awesome if everyone followed that?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-01-2011, 7:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
Your science seems to say that we will call this answer the correct answer, whether it is right or not, until the correct answer is found, as admitting we do not know puts us on equal ground with every other human with a guess.
I don't own any science. But I don't think that science is on equal ground with a guess. I put my "faith" with what produces results. As I said before in the last couple thousands years Religion is batting Zero. No discoveries.. zippo,... nada
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-01-2011, 11:49 AM Reply   
oh, you people and your imaginary friend are really something else.. If you would only spend 1/100th of the time studying the arguments against God as you did studying your religions then maybe you could begin to see how ridiculous you all sound.
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-01-2011, 11:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Your science seems to say that we will call this answer the correct answer, whether it is right or not, until the correct answer is found, as admitting we do not know puts us on equal ground with every other human with a guess.
How can anyone even take that statement seriously? You have to be a simpleton to believe that. I guess it just shows how balkanized the human brain is.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-01-2011, 12:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
How can anyone even take that statement seriously?
Maybe common sense to just too simple these days. Im not telling anyone what to believe (nor have i even shared what I believe). Both sides are brainwashed into thinking they know something unknowable, then each belittles the other for it all while denying its happening to them.

The religious need to treat their faith as faith and not try to pass it off as certainty.

The non-religious need to examine their "theories" and see what small percentage of their makeup is actual facts and how much is assumption and interpretation. I think they would be shocked about how little we actually KNOW.

Alas, neither side will because neither side likes to introduce uncertainty into their brainwash.
Old     (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-01-2011, 2:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Maybe common sense to just too simple these days. Im not telling anyone what to believe (nor have i even shared what I believe). Both sides are brainwashed into thinking they know something unknowable, then each belittles the other for it all while denying its happening to them.

The religious need to treat their faith as faith and not try to pass it off as certainty.

The non-religious need to examine their "theories" and see what small percentage of their makeup is actual facts and how much is assumption and interpretation. I think they would be shocked about how little we actually KNOW.

Alas, neither side will because neither side likes to introduce uncertainty into their brainwash.
I don't see how you can make these comments when you consider everything that science has given us. Just about everything including the computer your using, the car you drive in, and the boat you use! When you get sick do you choose to pray or go to a doctor? Science minded people are brainwashed? Again, it's called empirical evidence. So please, do give us an example of people like me being "brain washed". I leave you with a quote from Hitchens.

We have better explanations for the origins and birth of our cosmos and our species now, so much better so, in fact, that had they been available to begin with, religion would never have taken root. No one would now go back to the stage when we didn't have any real philosophy, we only had mythology, when we thought we lived on a flat planet or when we thought that our planet was circulated by the sun instead of the other way around, when we didn't know that there were micro-organisms as part of creation and that they were more powerful than us and had dominion over us rather than we, them, when we were fearful, the infancy of our species.
Old     (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       07-04-2011, 5:17 PM Reply   
I just spent 4 weeks working with and hanging out with 5 muslims. 3 from Pakistan, 1 from Syria and 1 from Iran.
I have always been biased towards Muslims in general just from what I have heard and seen on TV. A little Naive on my part I admit, but with no other interaction with any true Middle eastern person on a day to day basis, its what I went on.
I have to say that by interacting and seriously talking about our two diferent worlds and our beliefs with one another, I have 5 new friends that I would have never thought of in a million years. It opened my eyes to the people ( albeit a small sample ) but at least the productive and upstanding citizens of their respective countries. They gave me a perspective of a far different culture but taught me more that being that different didn't mean hate!!!!

As with any culture/religion there are extremeist and there are good natured people. I for one am glad I met these 5 gentleman and am proud to have worked with them.

just my perspective and my experience.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-06-2011, 6:30 AM Reply   
Religious belief does not mean you do not believe in science or pray rather than seek medical attention. Science gives us many wonderful things and explains much of how things work, and put labels on things even when they are undefinable. Scientific theories lead to discovery and understanding regardless of whether the theory iself is accurate. Theories become facts when they are proven to be true. Many times a very good scientific theory has just as much value being wrong as it does being right. The mistake is made when people start accepting a theory as true just because it hasnt been proven wrong rather than waiting until it is proven right.


Quote:
So please, do give us an example of people like me being "brain washed".
Much of what you and other call "science" is not science. Do you believe the big bang occured? Most in your position say yes, but why? Is it a proven event? No. It is a theory, but what is a theory really? It is a guess based on a human's interpretation of facts. Do, you personally interpret these facts? No, you depend on someone else to. Truth is not constructed by loose allignment of facts. In fact, thats the formula for good Sci-fi.

The truth is, we know very little scientifically about the origin of the universe. We only know what we can observe today and we interpret it based on our limited preexisting opinion. As you mentioned above, just because we observe what appears to be the sun revolving around the earth does not mean our interpretation of what we observe is correct. If you believe the big bang occurance is certain based on what we know at the present, you are just as brainwashed as any religious person. That in and of itself is no big deal to me, I just find it funny when one brainwashed group accuses the other of being brainwashed like they think its a lesser quality when they suffer from the exact same thing. And you will of course deny your brainwashing as would any religious person I accuse of the same thing. At least the religous give the disclaimer up front that their belief is blind faith and doesnt try to pass it off as scientific certainty.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-06-2011, 7:49 AM Reply   
Jason, you are too caught up in the word "believe". Do I believe that evolution resulted in the animals on the Earth? Yes. If a better defined viable theory was offered would I believe in it? Yes.

Would people who believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God change their mind if another equally (debatable) explanable God came along? No, I don't think so. It's because the Christian belief is deeply entrenched in your whole world view.

It's nothing like belief in a scientific theory. When people are "sure of themselves about evolution" vs religion it's because of the relative nature of the supporting facts. No facts or rational explanation explain Christianity. It's not a case of arguing two scientific theories. It's fantasy against research.

Since religious people have no rational recourse they stoop to trying to bring efforts of science down to the level of religion by claiming a lack of "enough" facts to definitively prove the theory vs. religions lack of "any" facts.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-06-2011, 8:13 AM Reply   
John, I dont debate religious beliefs as being true and freely admit that they could be wrong. The fact that if a better explanation came along you would freely go with it is an admittance that you do not know if your current belief is true. Now, if you knew elvolution was true by some external reason, and someone else had a very intriguing differing opinion who did not know what you know, you would not waver from what you already knew was fact. The point is, you dont know. Neither side does. Both believe in a story that was fed to them.

Every time this debate come up It makes me think that your saying the probability that Jurassic Park really happened is greater than the probability that Lord of The Rings really happened because it is congruent with what we know about science. And Im thinking science fiction is no greater truth than fiction. Both are just stories and the science entanglement doesnt change it.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-06-2011, 8:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
The point is, you dont know. Neither side does. Both believe in a story that was fed to them.
This is true of everything in your life. That's why it's necessary to take into account more than simply the claim that it's impossible to know anything as a fact, and since anything can be wrong then all things are equal.

This appears to be your philosophical truth. But for me it's a dogma of the obvious. The idea that we have to depend on the intelligence, integrity, and hard work of others to decide on a truth doesn't escape me.

The reason why your constant claims about science's lack of "proof" are so easily dismissed as simplistic thinking is because others already take into account the well documented failing of scientific theories in their belief system. Your philosophical insights are nothing new or informative.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-06-2011, 10:33 AM Reply   
John, I was not trying to inform you of anything new. You know this because this isnt the first time this topic has come up. I was merely pointing out that calling out one group for believing in a story is silly when you yourself believe in a different story as well. Im not addressing the validity of science or religion, only the irony of the argument used against one another.

Wake77, I didnt say they were the same, but you can believe a theory to be true or not. A theory is just speculation based on observation. I observe the sun come up in the east and go down in the west. I can interpret that FACT as the sun rotating around the earth. Is that a theory or a belief? It is sound and based on observation and logic. However, I would be wrong. Just because a theory is sound and backed up with facts does not make it correct, truth, or FACT. Those who accepted the theory that the sun revolved around the sun were not correct, then correct again once the FACT was discovered. They were WRONG until the truth was uncovered. Accepting something as truth just because its logical and isnt factually disproven is a disservice to science.

The question is, why does science feel obligated to label something fact that has not been proven an actual fact? Doesnt that dillute the meaning of real factual discovery? Do you not see any difference in the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, and the "scientific fact" that a big bang created the universe?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-06-2011, 10:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
John, I was not trying to inform you of anything new. You know this because this isnt the first time this topic has come up. I was merely pointing out that calling out one group for believing in a story is silly when you yourself believe in a different story as well.?
But that's the point. There is no useful logic in that claim. There is a huge difference between the two claims and the actually meaning of "belief" as it's applied.

Yes, I agree that some people who believe in the Big Bang think it's irrefutably proved, but I'm highly suspect that most people who "believe" in the Big Bang or probably more importantly Evolution don't have a belief like religion. And I think Evolution is a better example because it's much more studied and supported than the Big Bang.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-06-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
A theory is just speculation based on observation.
This is incorrect. The word theory does not imply the degree of certainty. You are using the laymans term for theory.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-06-2011, 8:35 AM Reply   
Jason, a theory is supported by scientific evidence. Beliefs on the other hand are not. If I made the statement, "there is a giant tortoise that holds up the earth", it would be a belief, because I can believe that it is indeed true contrary to any evidence. On the other hand, it would not be a theory, because there is no scientific evidence to support my statement. A belief is not synonymous with a theory.

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact."
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-06-2011, 2:31 PM Reply   
It can really be applied to any unprovable theory. The actual truth cannot be known as there is no way to test the theory or recreate the event to observe it. All we can do with either of these examples is take whatever data we have and speculate based on what we can observe today in astrophysics or biology. I know scientists do not like the term "guess" used for their speculation, heck they dont even like "speculation". Maybe "generation of potential reality"? call it whatever you want, but if you are objective you see that it is what it is.

Quote:
But that's the point. There is no useful logic in that claim. There is a huge difference between the two claims and the actually meaning of "belief" as it's applied.
Yes, but the difference isnt that one is a story and one is a fact. They are both stories, but one story is speculation of what happened in the past based on bits of remaining data we can oberve today. The other is based on a bookwritten by humans long ago of their experiences. Now, if you say you believe in the big bang story because it is the only one rooted in science and its speculation is based on what we observe today, that cant be refuted. However neither side can say "mine is true and yours is a story."

Quote:
Yes, I agree that some people who believe in the Big Bang think it's irrefutably proved, but I'm highly suspect that most people who "believe" in the Big Bang or probably more importantly Evolution don't have a belief like religion. And I think Evolution is a better example because it's much more studied and supported than the Big Bang.
I would be curious if there is any difference in validity in your mind between the big bang vs. earth rotates around the sun. And I do agree that sci-fi is more believable than fantasy, but it just doesnt make either less fictitious.


And for the record, I hope we find out we are all put here as is by aliens and we are all wrong. talk about a unifying moment, lol
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-06-2011, 3:07 PM Reply   
Yes there is a difference between the Big Bang and the Earth revolves around the Sun. Just as there is a difference between evolution and books describing supernatural miracles by Gods. Nothing points to the validity of the supernatural interactions between gods and humans. And everything points to human's tendancy to believe and perpetuate irrational stories. Especially when it supports the idea of perpetual life.

If you walk through the woods and see a fallen leaf on the ground, you're pretty sure it came from a tree in the woods. You weren't there when it fell, but you are confident it didn't come from across the world and placed they by someone else even though it's possible. So you're 99.999% sure but can never know for a fact. That isn't the same as believing in say... a staff of wood turning into a snake.

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