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Old     (snyder)      Join Date: Feb 2006       11-24-2010, 10:17 AM Reply   
Can't believe there's not a thread on this yet...

Here's my list of questions/concerns...

Why is the timing so suspect? Why did they wait until A) after the mid-term elections and B) after most people had already purchased holiday travel tickets to implement this "pat-down" procedure? Why has it been a whole YEAR since the dude tried (unsucessfully, mind you) to blow up a plane from Amsterdam (where our TSA doesn't even have any control over the screening process)
Why are the same people who were beside themselves crazy over the deployment of warrantless wiretaping of phone calls originating in the US and made to suspect countries... are perfectly fine w/this?

Am I crazy for considering cancelling my Colorado vacation based on this? What level of privacy are we willing to give up to the government in the name of "safety".

Here are my theories from most probable to most scary...

1. They're truely clueless but think they're making us safer while continuing to stay 1 step BEHIND terrorists.

2. The pat-downs are intentionally intrusive so that we'll willingly accept the naked body scans. As a lesser-of-two-evils choice. With the intent of deploying these scanners deeper and deeper into our lives (court houses, banks, ball games, etc).

3. They know that this will piss us off to the point where we become violent. In which case they have an excuse to institute martial law... "Hey, YOU made us do it!"

Either way, i'm pissed off about it. Do you want your 60+ y/o grandmother to have to take off her underwear to prove that her prosthetic leg doesn't contain PETN?
Do you want your 7 y/o daughter touched in places that would normally get anyone but her doctor arrested?

Or am I blowing this out of proportion?
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       11-24-2010, 10:38 AM Reply   
it's simple. start profiling. that will end almost all terrorist threats, and will make things move quicker. oh wait, that might offend a minority group, so that is not going to happen. I will let you know how pissed it makes me, once I actually go through the process.
Old     (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-24-2010, 10:45 AM Reply   
I flew out of Tampa last week and got both a body scan and pat down. Old fella feeling me up said it was because I was wearing cargo shorts. When I asked why the body scanner and whatnot does not work on cargo shorts, he went into a deal about how I could have the pat down done in private. Told him I'd drop pants right then and there and kinda got ushered along. My wife and daughter are flying to London in a few days, not looking forward to the drama from my wife that will incur when they do a the screening on our 3yr old.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-24-2010, 10:51 AM Reply   
" while you're down there......"

heh.
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-24-2010, 11:14 AM Reply   
I've had both done already. Three or four body scans and one of the enhanced pat downs. Don't really care either way.
Old    SamIngram            11-24-2010, 11:21 AM Reply   


My 104 year old grandma says this is how it starts... she left Warsaw in 1940



REMEMBER that clause in Our Declaration of Independence which states that our rights come from God, are unalienable, and that the purpose of civil government – the federal government – is to secure the Rights GOD gave us.

Our rights do not come from the first Ten Amendments; they do not come from the Constitution as interpreted by federal judges; and they do not come from Congress which purports to give to their parasitic constituency the “right” to live at other peoples’ expense.

Our Rights were bestowed by God, and as such, they transcend, pre-date & pre-exist the Constitution.

See http://publiushuldah.wordpress.com/ for further reading..
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-24-2010, 11:31 AM Reply   
Buuwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       11-24-2010, 11:12 AM Reply   
Whatever it takes to make sure the plane I'm on doesn't blow up. Like Train, I need to encounter the process first hand to form a strong opinion one way or the other. I'd be curious to see what my wifes boobs look like through the xray.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-24-2010, 11:20 AM Reply   
ITS SECURITY THEATER.

The only change in security needed after 911 was to lock the cockpit so the plane can not be used as a weapon.

The next big terror attack planned has to be much bigger than 911. Blowing up a single plane in the sky is not big enough.

Our defenses should be focused on preventing the next big event.

Intel. Profile. Screen. Offer pre-screened traveller ID cards to those who want them.
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-24-2010, 11:31 AM Reply   
Oh wait, was that a serious response? My bad.
Old     (snyder)      Join Date: Feb 2006       11-24-2010, 12:01 PM Reply   
"Whatever it takes to make sure the plane I'm on doesn't blow up."
How about a cavity search? It's been known for years that small time drug smugglers will bring cocaine and other drugs in via their "innards". And apparently a small enough amount of PETN to blow up a plane could probably do the same.
Scanners and pat-downs won't catch that. and if i've thought if it, others have too.... so we need to be doing random cavity searches, right?
How about randomly busting on into your house just to make sure you aren't planning any home-grown terrorism... that's big on DHS's list. domestic rebel rousers... gettin' people all spun up. They should just bust on in and shake people up just to be sure that nothing bad happens....

Yeah, that ol Ben Franklin.. he was such a kidder. so silly with his freedom talk and such.

There is a line that can't be crossed. Apparently that line is different for different people.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-24-2010, 12:10 PM Reply   
True. Unless they do cavity searches, all the other extensive searching is theater.

Unless ISLAM precludes hiding explosive in your pooper this extensive searching is silly.

The shoe bomber and the underwear bomber would easily evolve to colon-transport bombers.

Last edited by diamonddad; 11-24-2010 at 12:17 PM. Reason: typo
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-24-2010, 12:26 PM Reply   
I am not arguing that it's silly and def not effective. I personally think "profiling" is the only way to go.
The Nazi Germany pic just cracked me up.

I guess I could just really careless if someone wants to take a naked picture of me that you clearly can't tell is me. I agree with you guys though, I would probably feel different it what a appeared to be a guy or girl enjoying patting down my 1 year old son a little to much.
Old    SamIngram            11-24-2010, 12:24 PM Reply   
Here is a typical "charger" or "plan"....


Anyone watch or read Papillon? or Man on Fire? or "The Ultimate Spy" by Melton?

How many of you actually think that anything like 911 could be pulled off again? If I am on that plane and they take someone captive with a box cutter I'm going to kill the person, hostage or not, and most likely I'll get help from other passengers. If the hostage is killed or injured I will tell them or their family I am sorry and they will most likely be a hero.

We shouldn't have any of this crap, we should build the biggest, baddest set of towers to replace the Twin Towers, and dare someone to knock them down. I should be able to carry on a plane, it will take a ton of holes to bring that plane down! A bullet hole will not destroy a plane, that's all movie crap.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-24-2010, 12:57 PM Reply   
Yes, 911 will not happen again. In fact, it would not even happen later on that same day as witnessed on flight 93 over PA.

Lock the cockpit and give the flight crew pepper spray and battons and pig fat (to pour on their bodies after they are beat up by the passengers).

So, standard security to stop the unorganized bozos is fine.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       11-24-2010, 1:21 PM Reply   
My next flight I'm showing up in plum smuggler shorts, a wife better and flip flops.... no bombs on me.


And if profiling and patdowns are okay, I'm saying screw the degree and working for TSA...." You miss, with the large rack, step aside please...."
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-24-2010, 1:59 PM Reply   
Just have a little fun with the patdowns:

Start moaning a bit and then loudly "Oh yeah, right there. Harder, harder. Get NAUGHTY WITH IT!!!!"
Old     (nauti4life)      Join Date: Sep 2008       11-24-2010, 2:11 PM Reply   
OH...I'm not flying anywhere....I'm just here for the pat down.
Old     (phatboypimp)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2010, 2:50 PM Reply   
I surprised that there is such a violent reaction to this screening process. I can't imagine what it is was like to be any part of what happened on 9.11. Seems like a five minute process to me and I travel 100,000 miles easily a year (I was given the patdown yesterday on my way to Vegas). If it only stops one disaster it is worth it my mind. I think you are taking the "child patdowns" a little to far IMO. Flying commercial is a choice, if you are so hung up on the patdown and the removal of your "freedom", you certainly have other options.
Old     (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       11-24-2010, 4:28 PM Reply   
I read this article a few days ago, seems appropriate to the subject.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

To me these pat downs and screenings (after reading the article above) are like putting a band aid on a broken leg.

The patient will be pissed because they know it's the wrong thing to do, it's the cheaper alternative and it won't necessarily help to solve the problem.

I can also see why pilots are so against the scanning process, having to go through those machines daily, even weekly, can't be good for you.

I've recently travelled from Auckland NZ to London and back again. I did not encounter any of the pat downs or screenings, however it was crazy that you get your baggage checked in transit, then walk into the lounge where you can order a beer in a bottle from the bar and then no further screening takes place. Surely a broken beer bottle will do far more damage than a pair of scissors.

Last edited by jtnz; 11-24-2010 at 4:35 PM. Reason: extra info
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-24-2010, 4:44 PM Reply   
Has TSA stopped a single terrorist event in the past? Anything...?!
Old     (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       11-24-2010, 6:23 PM Reply   



Local story: the kid did not trip the metal detector, the agent couldnt/wasnt getting success with the autistic boy. Needless to say fustration was happening on all parties



Oh the joys of TSA

Last time through I went though the scanner and the TSA guy said to look ahead at the camera and hold my arms up and look at the camera and smile.
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       11-24-2010, 7:23 PM Reply   
I am a Pilot for a commercial airline and I haven't had to do either scanner or pat down yet. When it comes to working flight crew, we should not have to go through security at all. We are in control of the aircraft; we do not need weapons. As far as this crap for every passenger I believe it is a little excessive. After all most of the people that work for the TSA are idiots anyway. They just stand around and BS. Most are hired because of affirmative action not because of their qualifications. If quality professionally trained security professionals were handling the process it may be different.
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-25-2010, 5:50 AM Reply   
To the OP, I don't think cancelling your vacation is excessive. Government is violating your fourth amendment rights and invading your privacy. Personally I won't be flying to Florida this winter for vacation. If I still go I'll either drive or take the train.

This is unconstitutional, which is to say illegal. Government needs to stop. We live in an allegedy free society (a flagrant lie). The solution to airline security is to leave airline security to the airlines. Then we can all choose what level of security we are comfortable with, and there is no legitimate gripe about patdowns, strip searches, or porno scanners, as your transaction is a voluntary one with a private entity vs. the current situation where government forces this upon you.

Remember why 9/11 happened. Those planes ended up on those towers because your government disarmed every honest law abiding person boarding those planes.
Old     (lukewtwt)      Join Date: Apr 2003       11-25-2010, 6:30 AM Reply   
If this pat-down policy was instituted under the Bush Administration, there would be riots in the streets, and the ACLU would be having protests outside the White House.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-25-2010, 11:37 AM Reply   
The 4th ammendment...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

And, the courts have routinely considered airport searches "reasonable" searches and not inviolation with the 4th ammendment because you can choose to not fly.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-25-2010, 1:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
And, the courts have routinely considered airport searches "reasonable" searches and not inviolation with the 4th ammendment because you can choose to not fly

And, that's exactly what people should do, choose not to fly if possible. Cripple the airline industry and things will change. Unfortunately, it won't happen.
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       11-25-2010, 5:16 PM Reply   
Go ahead and quit flying. Think about what you are saying here! You quit flying and I lose my job again. Along with all those TSA government agents and countless other people. Then we can all sit at home and collect our government funded (by You) welfare and unemployment checks. Fortunately for you guys I would get off my A$$ and find other work but most of the affirmative action TSA agents would not. It's a cycle that really sucks. I believe this stuff is excessive but you have to consider the world we live in as well. If you want to avoid TSA buy yourself a jet, hire me to fly it, and we could go wherever you want when you want with no TSA at all. Like it or not these are not going to go away and are probably the least of our worries when it comes to crap the Obama administration is implementing.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-25-2010, 5:29 PM Reply   
I'd prefer the TSA be on welfare, but this won't affect my decision to fly.
Old     (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       11-25-2010, 6:54 PM Reply   
Wow I cant believe that this is such a big deal. I couldnt care less if they want to pat me down or scan me. Who cares? We are the same people who witnessed 9/11 just a few years ago and were all about taking down the terrorists and now that some TSA guy is going to pat you down its a HUGE deal?! It may be over the top but if it stops 1 terror attack then its worth it. All this outrage over a patdown....are we really that insecure? "Oh no...this guy who is trained to do this may feel my nuts for .074 seconds! Or holy crap he brushed his hands over my kid through their clothes right in front of me." What are they going to do, you are watching them, its not like theyre going to put their hands down someone's pants and massage. I dont see why this is a big deal at all. Do whatever you want/can to prevent a terrorist and it is totally fine with me.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-25-2010, 7:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Go ahead and quit flying. Think about what you are saying here! You quit flying and I lose my job again.
Quote:
And, the courts have routinely considered airport searches "reasonable" searches and not inviolation with the 4th ammendment because you can choose to not fly

So, we should forgo our dignity so you can keep your job? I hate to sound insensitive but, if it takes crippling the entire industry for our government to realize that feeling me up in an airport under the thinly veiled guise of security is going too far.. then, I'm sorry, but if it were up to me you'd be unemployed.
The dignity of millions of travelers is far more important than your job.

They say it's not a violation of my constitutional rights because I can make the choice not to fly? Fair enough... I chose not to fly and I'd bet they'd be singing a different tune if millions of others made the same choice.
Old     (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       11-25-2010, 8:01 PM Reply   
Dignity? Its only degrading if you treat as being molested, which it is not. If you think about it as a security scan, there is nothing degrading about it whatsoever. People dont complain that they are being stripped of their dignity during routine physicals because "its for health." Well consider TSA screening a MUCH less invasive form of a physical because it is for your health...if a terrorist sneaks something by that would have been caught by a scan/pat down and blows your plane up, you die...which is a pretty severe health concern.


And yes, I would say it is completely ridiculous that someone would cancel their flight plans because of this or decide not to fly. Its a 30 second routine screening procedure that could save your life.
Old     (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       11-25-2010, 8:04 PM Reply   
Have any of you been pat down entering a sporting event or any other security checkpoint? I know I have and I thought nothing of it at all, nada. I feel like pat downs arent new at all, which is why it is so shocking to me that people are so freaked out over them now that they do them in airports.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-25-2010, 8:36 PM Reply   
Lfadam,

I don't like it and I won't put myself into a position to have to endure it. regardless of prior ruling(s), I feel it is too invasive and a violation of my constitutional right. Since my two options seem to be:
1. Fly and endure it.
2. Choose not to fly and avoid it.

The second option has secondary consequences if enough people select that option. Money seems to be the only thing politicians/governments responds to, so costing them money is the way we get them to respond. I'm sorry that you will be an unintended victim, but you can blame them for not listening to the people and forcing us to take 'drastic measures' to be heard.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-25-2010, 8:48 PM Reply   
This article has some good suggestions http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/11/2...00280000000026
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       11-29-2010, 12:53 PM Reply   
just make sure your shaft is hanging to the left or the right during the scan, if not it looks like you have some weird man-gina.

been thru it a couple of times..., no big deal to me.
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       11-29-2010, 7:42 PM Reply   
I understand where you guys are coming from and maybe I took it a little personal. I believe it is a little excessive but necessary at the same time. Terrorist do exist and actions need to be taken. I don't disagree completely with the TSA actions just more so with the people they hire. These people are by no means professional security specialists. Barry I appreciate your support. It would be just me out of a job but thousands of airline and airport employees and supporting staff. According to your profile you do nothing So I guess we will all go to the free cheese line with you. When that happens the economy will just get worse and everything will continue to go into the crapper. The truth is flight loads are still up and the effort to get people to forgo screenings over the holiday weekend failed. People are still going to fly and deal with the screenings.
Old     (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       11-29-2010, 8:04 PM Reply   
Flew over the holiday and had no problems at all. It was smoother then the past few times we have traveled..
On the way back to CO, my wife went right thru security with her shoes still on.!!! Nobody noticed or said a thing. Makes you wonder.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-29-2010, 8:23 PM Reply   
I guess I need to update my profile as the last time it was updated was probably 6 years or so ago. I've taken on some tough work since then... I shoot a lot and I got back into the Racquetball court.
Oh! And i sold my boat back in 2006.
Old     (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       11-29-2010, 11:28 PM Reply   
i bet lots of you would be crying a different tune if you or your family ended up on a plane that was seized by terrorists or blown up. then you'd(or your family) would be trying to sue tsa for not performing an in depth scan of the passengers.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-30-2010, 12:26 AM Reply   
Since everyone can bring 3 oz of fluid through in a container, what stops Bin Laden from having 100 dudes come through a common gate over the course of a day so that 3 oz becomes 300 oz?

Point being, there are 1000s of ways to defeat all of these measures. Someone only needs to be very motivated.

Last edited by diamonddad; 11-30-2010 at 12:28 AM.
Old     (jv210)      Join Date: Feb 2006       11-30-2010, 12:42 PM Reply   
I flew over the holiday weekend and didn't encounter any of the new measures everyone is so worked up about. Both airports, San Jose and Las Vegas had the scanners but weren't using them. I didn't see and anyone being patted down or making a fuss and it seems the whole process was just a normal airport visit. With all the news articles in the last few weeks about screening, either TSA decided not to use the new procedures or this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

With that said, I was prepared to just do the scanner and be done with. I could care less if someone sees me naked. I do believe that all the screenings really wont stop anything, but we have to deal with it if we want t fly. If you don't like it, just stay home or take a different form of transportation.
Old     (mnwakepuck)      Join Date: Jun 2007       11-30-2010, 10:40 PM Reply   
Here's a simple solution to the controversy over full-body scanners at airports.

Develop an enclosed booth that passengers step into but , instead of X-raying them, when the door closes, it will detonate any explosive device they have hidden on or in their body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth. This would be a win-win for everyone!

There would be no concern about racial profiling. The booth would eliminate long,
expensive trials.

You're in the airport and you hear a muffled explosion, followed by an announcement
over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers, we now have a seat available on flight
number..."

What's not to like?



Haha I just got this email. Obviously not a real solution but still funny none the less.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-30-2010, 10:58 PM Reply   
^^^ This! lol!

Followed by another P.A announcement " Clean-up, box 7.. clean-up in box 7"
Old     (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-01-2010, 5:57 AM Reply   
That sounds like good solution to me!
Old     (benbuchholz)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-01-2010, 10:46 AM Reply   
Hangover quotes anyone?

"WATCH IT, pervert!"
"You're getting very close to my shaft!"

And of course make sure you're as loud as possible when saying this. But in all seriousness, this whole full body thing is a bit overboard. TSA seems to be taking this a little too seriously. Case in point: http://www.prisonplanet.com/mother-k...east-milk.html

I can see why people are outraged. But personally, if some guy feels the need to grope my junk for .7 seconds, go for it dude. I hope he feels as awkward as possible while doing it, because i know i sure as heck wouldn't wanna have that job. I vote the "sealed booth" solution. Blow 'em up!
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-01-2010, 11:35 AM Reply   
Alex Jones? [insert vomit icon].
I don't trust our government either, but he's so paranoid he doesn't trust himself.
Old    SamIngram            12-01-2010, 11:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Alex Jones? [insert vomit icon].
I don't trust our government either, but he's so paranoid he doesn't trust himself.
"Only the paranoid survive." - Andrew S. Grove

Alex Jones actually has some pretty news stories well before anyone else has them... I know that he often "makes the news" as he goes, but still his sites generally have some good stuff if you do a little fact checking...

"Does the government fear us? Or do we fear the government? When the people fear the government, tyranny has found victory. The federal government is our servant, not our master!" - Thomas Jefferson
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-01-2010, 7:01 PM Reply   
Ever since Alex Jones started stalking about the NWO, I lost respect. Those guys disbanded years ago when the WCW folded. Why should anyone be worried about the NWO?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-01-2010, 7:42 PM Reply   
Now I know what you guys all all worried about.
Attached Images
 
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-01-2010, 8:13 PM Reply   
It's only a matter of time before cellular phone pictures of the x-rays start showing up on-line.


lol@ Grant..
Old     (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-02-2010, 12:54 PM Reply   
If you need tags for your luggage
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Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-02-2010, 1:44 PM Reply   
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