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-   -   Take a look at my surf wake (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=801406)

masongardner 03-14-2014 9:26 AM

Take a look at my surf wake
 
Gonna post a video of my surf wake, I'm just looking for some tips and tricks on the wake itself. How it looks and any suggestions from those of you that know what your doing, unlike me. Thanks!

Jason

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/89066121" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/89066121">surf wave</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user25926288">jason gardner</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

bcrider 03-14-2014 10:01 AM

It would really help everyone out if you mentioned what boat you have along with current weight configuration.

masongardner 03-14-2014 10:16 AM

Thanks Dave, Its a 2001 Aztek Sunstar, direct drive. I have 3 sacs in the boat. A sumo 800 lb in the front under the seats for the open bow, extending in the middle locker, a 750 on the surf side next to the motor, and another 750 on the back seat, surf side. In this video I had the 800 probably 600lbs full, in the front, the surf side 750 next to the motor full, and the 750 on the back seat surf side probably 37lbs5 full. The rub rail was probably 4-5 inches from the water and the swim deck, as you can see from the video, was completely sunk on the surf side. Thanks!

fence_sence 03-14-2014 12:12 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I doubt there's going to be much surf info on that boat. I could be wrong though.

I've been surfing my d-drive for 10 seasons now. I really found a great set up last season. I have heavily modified my trunk area so, take it with a grain of salt. I run 450 in the rear surf side corner. ~300 in the non surf side corner. Another ~300 surf side next to the dog house. As much humanity as I can get in the surf side corner. No weight up front. 10.7 - 11mph on gps.

I decided to stop running bow weight and pick up the speed last season and it really made a huge difference. The wake got bigger and longer and cleaner. Looking at your vid, it looks like too much bow weight. Really tough to judge it with no rider.

Not the greatest pic but..

masongardner 03-14-2014 12:21 PM

I didnt even think about the bow weight, thanks!!! I for sure am going to be messing with it and finding the best set up. There is NO info with these boats, thats for sure, but I would think most direct drives would be reasonably the same. Thanks or the advice, I will get some pics and videos of us on the wave as soon as the water warms up. It was 37 deg yesterday hahah!!

fence_sence 03-14-2014 4:12 PM

I've surfed several different d-drives and mine is light years ahead of any of them. Mostly just on shape. For d-drive, it is exceptionally wide. It also has spray pockets and decently angled sides. The result is great wake shape for surfing. Better than several of the v-drives I've surfed. Obviously it's a happy accident and I lucked out. Looking at your video though, your wake has potential. I think.

FAE. Must have in any boat but, especially in a d-drive. You platform is also dragging bad. Cutting it down would likely go a long way to cleaning it up. I trimmed mine last year even though it was just barely dragging. It made a noticeable difference.

Midnightv10 03-14-2014 4:29 PM

I thought the same thing about the swim platform but when I watch the video it looks like the turbulence from the swim platform gets up and over the wake pretty quickly.. the prop wash is what looks to me like it is messing things up. do you have or have you thought about a wake plate or a "mud flap" of some kind to help knock down the prop wash?

masongardner 03-14-2014 6:14 PM

I thought about that with the platform being so far in the water. I can look into that for sure. I just wanted to get opinions, it was the first time we have had the boat out with the bags so a great first start.

bcrider 03-17-2014 1:25 PM

I personally find my boat makes a lot better of a surf wake if I am driving in circles. Kind of a pain but has produced the best results. I could never get a decent wave running in a strait line.

fence_sence 03-17-2014 3:10 PM

Don't drive in circles. Please. A slight arc is one thing but, driving around in circles is just plain rude if there is even one other rider anywhere near you. Don't be that guy.

trayson 03-17-2014 5:08 PM

I think the platform could be an issue as well. Take a look at this thread on my platform and the custom one we did:
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800106
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps7f7e41dc.jpg

This video shows the platform and ballast setup pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_eQnL5MPU

That said I have a Supra Sunsport Direct drive. We struggled with the wake early last season. This is what we started with early on:
250 under rear seat
750 beside doghouse
350 behind doghouse (floorspace in front of rear seat)
150 in the cooler that's under the center windshield

It was 'okay' but we really struggled with it.

So per recommendations from Wakemakers, we put as much as we could in the surfside corner:
250 under rear seat
350 beside doghouse on surfside floor
750 on top of the 350 with 1/3 of the bag on the rear seat.
150 on the back center seat or on top of the 350 continuing from where the 750 lets off, or not at all.
passenger in spotter seat, no one in bow.

That, combined with the surf platform has been our sweet spot. Basically get all the weight in the rear surf corner. Now that said, we are pretty damn slammed. The waterline is at the bottom or just over the top of the rub rail all the way to the middle of the boat when underway.

Here's one example:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X...492806397.jpeg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J...6131532-00.jpg

That said, I'm going to experiment more this summer. I realized that the bag under my rear seat is actually a 750 that is being completely under utilized. So I'll have a pair of 750's and a 370 to play with. and my little 150. I'll still only be able to get around 250 under the rear seat. But dual 750's could be interesting. I'm also hoping I'll get the time/money/motivation to put some kind of surf system on my boat--the frontrunner being a homemade version of the Moomba Flow.

But for the time being it's slam the rear corner, no bow weight, and customized surf platform.

phathom 03-17-2014 5:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fence_sence (Post 1868388)
I doubt there's going to be much surf info on that boat. I could be wrong though.

I've been surfing my d-drive for 10 seasons now. I really found a great set up last season. I have heavily modified my trunk area so, take it with a grain of salt. I run 450 in the rear surf side corner. ~300 in the non surf side corner. Another ~300 surf side next to the dog house. As much humanity as I can get in the surf side corner. No weight up front. 10.7 - 11mph on gps.

I decided to stop running bow weight and pick up the speed last season and it really made a huge difference. The wake got bigger and longer and cleaner. Looking at your vid, it looks like too much bow weight. Really tough to judge it with no rider.

Not the greatest pic but..

Funny, that's a real similar setup to how we surf a DD as well, but for us it's no non surf side weight, add a 250 under the rear seat and that 300 is moved to the surf side in the way of a 750 and no bow weight of course. Other than that, identical setup and speeds. It is a pretty good setup. I'm glad there's someone else with experience running a pretty close setup that it's working for. This kinda gives me some idea that we're in the right ballpark.

masongardner 03-18-2014 7:06 AM

Funny to see you guys running almost the same setup. I will try both 750 in the rear surf corner with no bow weight and see how things progress from there. Fun stuff!

trayson 03-18-2014 8:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masongardner (Post 1868926)
Funny to see you guys running almost the same setup. I will try both 750 in the rear surf corner with no bow weight and see how things progress from there. Fun stuff!

Surf Addict (Phathom) is talking about my boat. He rides with me. LOL.

mhibbing 03-18-2014 9:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
2014 Supra SC450 with Swell System and 3000lbs of ballast plumbed in.

Gotmods 03-18-2014 9:14 AM

Take a look at my surf wake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhibbing (Post 1868944)
2014 Supra SC450 with Swell System and 3000lbs of ballast plumbed in.


Damn man you got access to some nice SC boats!

mhibbing 03-18-2014 10:10 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotmods (Post 1868945)
Damn man you got access to some nice SC boats!

Thanks man!!! You should ride behind one if you get a chance!!

fence_sence 03-18-2014 11:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhibbing (Post 1868944)
2014 Supra SC450 with Swell System and 3000lbs of ballast plumbed in.

While that's very nice, we're kinda of discussing d-drive set ups. Is there something about a state of the art 24' v-drive surf machine that is relevant to an old timey d-drive discussion? :confused:

Back at the d-drive thread...

I think what we're finding is that with the motor being in the middle of the boat, it's serving as front ballast. That's actually old news but, the last few years have seen a lot of experimentation in d-drive set ups. I myself had been running bow weight for a couple seasons. While I had a nice long, clean, solid wake, it was lacking height. All the work I had done just wasn't paying off as I had hoped. On a whim, I though I'd go back to an old style set up with no bow weight. I took that weight and moved it back next to the doghouse. The wake really jumped in height but was a bit washed out. I bumped up the speed a bit and BAM! There was a nice wake in there. I've been running that set up ever since and it's been solid every time out.

I'm not really sure exactly how much weight it will hold in each sac. The compartments are not square. The sacs themselves are 24"w x 24"h x 20"d. Which puts them in the 650# range. I say 450# because in know they will fill to at least that much. It's probably much closer to 500+ though. Pic shows the compartments with the seat back sections and the hatches removed. Everything from the pumps back to the transom in new. New fuel tank, panels and hatches. I also cut the floors out of the ballast sections and fabricated a new floor section for the new fuel tank.

fence_sence 03-18-2014 11:12 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's what it started as.

fence_sence 03-18-2014 11:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Finished product.

fence_sence 03-18-2014 11:32 AM

...and since everyone seems to be pimping wakemakers, I will not. I use MLA (Mike's Liquid Audio). Mike is the man. I bounced all sorts of stuff off of him before digging in to this project and he worked with me through all the design phase and build phase. I was kind of a PITA, I'll admit but, he never made me feel as if I were one. We talked a lot before I ever purchased item 1. When I did order the parts, he put together a badass package that had everything I needed and nothing I didn't. He may not have the fancy website but, he's got it where it counts. You tha man Mike!

trayson 03-18-2014 12:47 PM

I agree, posting a pic of a premium v-drive wave from a boat that costs 8 to 10 times as much as mine isn't really on topic and comes off as "look at me". :-/

More direct drive thoughts:
Another thing that come into play for us is the wake plate. Mine has no hinge and is adjustable to the extent of how much you can crank it down via the turnbuckles. When I bought the boat, the prev owner had it all the way up. as I started adding more ballast, I found that I would porpoise REALLY bad when surfing. It was to the extent that I was running out of power and the steering was feeling really hard. I ended up putting the wake plate down by maybe just 1/2" down. You can get a good look at it here:
Before:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Z...825_103341.jpg
After:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...314_190643.jpg


It really changed things up. Steering input got a lot easier and I regained that lost power since I wasn't pointing my prop as down in the water. It's yet one more variable to play with. I really wish I had a power wake plate to make adjustments more on the fly and more easily see the outcome. But it's another thing to think about.

trayson 03-18-2014 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fence_sence (Post 1868964)
...and since everyone seems to be pimping wakemakers, I will not. I use MLA (Mike's Liquid Audio). Mike is the man. I bounced all sorts of stuff off of him before digging in to this project and he worked with me through all the design phase and build phase. I was kind of a PITA, I'll admit but, he never made me feel as if I were one. We talked a lot before I ever purchased item 1. When I did order the parts, he put together a badass package that had everything I needed and nothing I didn't. He may not have the fancy website but, he's got it where it counts. You tha man Mike!

I'm sure Mike's is great too. I just happen to live just outside of Portland OR where they started. They're now just a few hours away in Bend. So to me, that's basically supporting local. No sales tax and packages that arrive to me the next day with ground shipping just makes sense as do the discounts they offer to forums.

It's awesome to have a variety of vendors out there that support our passion, that's for sure.

501s 03-18-2014 4:03 PM

That guy with the new Supra found ways to post his pics in at least 3 different threads. Poor guy must really need affirmation about his boat.

fence_sence 03-18-2014 5:17 PM

Lots of people use Wakemakers. They've done well for themselves. I don't think Mike gets enough credit. That's all.

Every time I see Stormtrooper now, I think Robot Chicken.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LowVhCfLm68

You should call up Bennett or Lenco and see it they have a replacement for that fixed tab. I can't imagine not having one. I use mine constantly.

masongardner 03-19-2014 3:34 PM

My boat doesn't currently have a wake plate but that may be something I need to look into. Great pics and thoughts guys. Now if the weather can warm up a little I will play with it some more and see how good I can get the wake. Nice setup btw stormtrooper!!

masongardner 03-20-2014 3:11 PM

Trayson? No FAE on your boat?

trayson 03-20-2014 3:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masongardner (Post 1869334)
Trayson? No FAE on your boat?

it's on the list of things I want to add. I don't have indoor storage, so it's not as easy to work on it during the offseason (plug I'm off snowboarding every weekend). That said, we've drawn up plans and intend on making a DIY version...

masongardner 03-21-2014 1:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trayson (Post 1869337)
it's on the list of things I want to add. I don't have indoor storage, so it's not as easy to work on it during the offseason (plug I'm off snowboarding every weekend). That said, we've drawn up plans and intend on making a DIY version...

Nice! Look forward to seeing it!

masongardner 04-13-2014 8:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trayson (Post 1868860)
I think the platform could be an issue as well. Take a look at this thread on my platform and the custom one we did:
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800106
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps7f7e41dc.jpg

This video shows the platform and ballast setup pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_eQnL5MPU

That said I have a Supra Sunsport Direct drive. We struggled with the wake early last season. This is what we started with early on:
250 under rear seat
750 beside doghouse
350 behind doghouse (floorspace in front of rear seat)
150 in the cooler that's under the center windshield

It was 'okay' but we really struggled with it.

So per recommendations from Wakemakers, we put as much as we could in the surfside corner:
250 under rear seat
350 beside doghouse on surfside floor
750 on top of the 350 with 1/3 of the bag on the rear seat.
150 on the back center seat or on top of the 350 continuing from where the 750 lets off, or not at all.
passenger in spotter seat, no one in bow.

That, combined with the surf platform has been our sweet spot. Basically get all the weight in the rear surf corner. Now that said, we are pretty damn slammed. The waterline is at the bottom or just over the top of the rub rail all the way to the middle of the boat when underway.

Here's one example:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X...492806397.jpeg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J...6131532-00.jpg

That said, I'm going to experiment more this summer. I realized that the bag under my rear seat is actually a 750 that is being completely under utilized. So I'll have a pair of 750's and a 370 to play with. and my little 150. I'll still only be able to get around 250 under the rear seat. But dual 750's could be interesting. I'm also hoping I'll get the time/money/motivation to put some kind of surf system on my boat--the frontrunner being a homemade version of the Moomba Flow.

But for the time being it's slam the rear corner, no bow weight, and customized surf platform.

I know this thread it kinda old, but we got out yesterdy. Took your advice and slammed the surf corned. 2 750s to be exact. The wave was huge but not long at all. Seemed to have good push but we couldnt go ropeless. But we are also beginners. First time surfing with this boat to be exact. Lol. It was a BLAST. I will get the video up asap.

- Jason

fence_sence 04-13-2014 10:43 AM

You're on your way. Congrats. There are three parts to the wake surf equation; the wake, the board and the rider. If one part of the equation is too weak, the whole thing falls apart. The good news is that you are likely the weakest link. That's a good thing because you are a human and your performance will increase with practice. One thing I tried to get my new riders to do is ride an INDO board first. https://www.indoboard.com They are extremely relevant to wake surfing for new riders. Wake surfing is really heavy on balance. Not balance as in standing up and not falling over but instead, transferring your balance point on the board back and forth. I try to tell people that their balance point is directly under their head and between their feet. It requires constant small adjustments of the balance point in order to control speed. The INDO boards naturally teach that control. As you move the INDO board back and forth while keeping the board level, the head is naturally always over the barrel. The barrel is the balance point. I've had struggling newbies suddenly "get it" after 5 min on an INDO.

Looking forward to the video.

masongardner 04-13-2014 8:22 PM

Here is a quick video, develops into the wake so everyone can take a look and tell me what they think. This was our first time wakesurfing. Both of us have done lots of ocean surfing, some wakeboarding, and lots of snowboard, so Im sure that helped. This video wasnt me but my friend. After the gopro died, we both were ropeless for maybe 5 to 10 seconds. It was a freaking blast. Cant wait til it gets warmer. The one thing I was worried about was my boat engine bogging down pretty good trying to go a little fast at 10 to 11 mph. Maybe a prop change? Its a 3 blade, not sure on the details, and the boat is a 99 aztek sunstar with a mercruiser 5.7 mpi. ENJOY!

- Jason

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/maso...6cae2.mp4.html

dejoeco 04-14-2014 7:47 AM

A couple observations from the video. First, it appears you are going too fast. Surfing with my old direct drive tige I started going around 10.3 or so. Of course this was using a paddle wheel and not an exact science. It was mentioned previously that there are 3 components and that is right. Once I figuered out how to do it, I can surf almost any wake. I really nice board does help with a week wake. The rider on the video could move his frint foot more toeside and maybe a bit forward and that should help.

Of the three compents, the wake is the hardest to judge from a picture or video. Within each wake there is size, length, lip and push. I have a great surf boat, but with stock ballast is is good maybe not great. I added 5-600 lbs of lead and the wake looks the same but has a lot more push which to me is the most important component.

Good luck

fence_sence 04-14-2014 10:13 AM

Yikes. First things first, how are you guys gauging your speed? That ain't 10.

The prop makes a huge difference in how the boat runs. Get down there and find out what you're running.

I still think the platform is killing the top of your wake but, at the speed you're traveling in the vid, there's no good way to tell. It's dragging bad and that ain't good.

I could comment on the rider but, there's no point with speed issue.

You can always download a gps speedo app to your phone and calibrate your speedos that way. It's hard to find one that goes down into 1/10th mph although there may be some new ones out that might be better than what I used to run. That's important as there is a huge difference between 10 and 11mph. At the very least you'll be able to get in the ballpark.

Getting the set up right makes a huge difference so if you guys had a blast, wait 'til you guys a good set up going.

masongardner 04-14-2014 1:50 PM

we were gauging the speed of the speedometer. Calibrated them last time using a phone with GPS. But that was at 25 miles per hour so who knows how far off it is at 10. Speedometes were showing between 10 and 11, but it does look fast as crap in the video. think next time we will just use a phone GPS for the speed.it's hard to keep it at a a perfect speed without perfect pass.since this was our first time we kind of want of the speedometer and how the wave was looking.we will definitely pay more attention to the speed next time once it warms up.

fence_sence 04-15-2014 2:04 AM

What kind of speedometer? Paddle wheel? Pito?

I had my old Airguides set for surfing. They were kinda accurate at 10-12 mph. Around 1-2 mph slow at 24 mph and 3-4 mph slow at 36 mph. Needless to say, we rode off of the tach. It's the only way to keep the boat steady if your speedos suck.

masongardner 04-15-2014 6:12 AM

Pito. Yes. Going of the tach may be a better idea. I would be willing to put Prefect pass in this boat but if we are going to upgrade anytime soon. Which we probably will, then there is no point.

dejoeco 04-15-2014 7:58 AM

I have a GPSSpeedMPH on my iphone. It goes to 10ths

fence_sence 04-15-2014 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejoeco (Post 1872775)
I have a GPSSpeedMPH on my iphone. It goes to 10ths

Which one is it?

fence_sence 04-15-2014 9:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masongardner (Post 1872765)
Pito. Yes. Going of the tach may be a better idea. I would be willing to put Prefect pass in this boat but if we are going to upgrade anytime soon. Which we probably will, then there is no point.

Ya, I wouldn't even bother looking at the speedos. Once they are dialed in, they're ok but, getting them there is a pita. Just get a good tach reading for the day and adjust your speed in rpm. Obviously it's going to be a little different every time out due to differences in weight but at least you'll have a good base line. It certainly can be done. I surfed that way for 10 years.

dejoeco 04-16-2014 7:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fence_sence (Post 1872784)
Which one is it?

The app just says GPSSpeedMPH

masongardner 04-16-2014 7:47 AM

Is it a speed graph? I found a graph one that reads tenths. I'll give that a try next time.

dejoeco 04-16-2014 8:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masongardner (Post 1872935)
Is it a speed graph? I found a graph one that reads tenths. I'll give that a try next time.

It just says the speed in MPH Like 10.8

fence_sence 04-16-2014 9:51 AM

The one I hat on my old phone was cool in the fact that it had HUD option. I could set the phone on the dash and have it display on the windshield.

fence_sence 04-16-2014 9:54 AM

One thing you should try next time out is taking your platform off just to see how much it's effecting the wake.

masongardner 04-16-2014 3:16 PM

Oh. Didn't even think about that. Great idea. I will for sure.

loudelectronics 05-12-2014 1:57 PM

What about making a VX device to help enhance the wave. It will improve the coanda effect of your hull and actually make the wake longer, firmer and more drive. You may consider putting a bit of weight on your swim deck. Takes less weight as you are further back.

dejoeco 05-13-2014 8:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejoeco (Post 1872944)
It just says the speed in MPH Like 10.8

One other thing regarding the GPS app. My boat has zero gps and afreinds new boat has perfect pass with paddle whell. We tried riding his boat at the same speed as my boat and had a more difficult time, we ride 10.8-11.2. After installing the app, the phone gps registered 10.8 when the boat was saying 10.3 and so we had our answer.


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