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-   -   Was Malibu Surfgate First? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800833)

davesetter 01-09-2014 9:43 AM

Was Malibu Surfgate First?
 
I'm confused. I thought Malibu Surfgate was a patented design and therefore could not be duplicated. Now I see almost every major boat brand has a version. Maybe version is the key word. Was Malibu the first? If so, does anyone now what the other boat builders do different to circumvent the patent. Finally, has anyone surfed behind the different surf systems. I would be interested to know the pros and cons of each and which is the best.

boardjnky4 01-09-2014 10:58 AM

Malibu was the first to patent. They have are currently in the process of suing Correct Craft for NSS on the Nauitque. The outcome of that case will likely affect the state of the surf systems on other boats as well.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 11:04 AM

They won't win.

Ansorge10 01-09-2014 11:08 AM

Every time im see jet ranger on this site I just think to myself, you're opinions are as useful as Helen Keller with a iPad.


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boardjnky4 01-09-2014 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1858771)
They won't win.

A friend of mine is a patent attorney. Her opinion is the opposite. She took a look at the Malibu patent and she thinks they have a good shot of winning it.

IMO, I hope they'll work out a licensing agreement so that the innovation can continue.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansorge10 (Post 1858772)
Every time im see jet ranger on this site I just think to myself, you're opinions are as useful as Helen Keller with a iPad.


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Here's something useful for you...

People will take your more seriously if you learn which "your" to use. I think that happens in grade 2.

Thanks for coming out champ!

Greeko 01-09-2014 11:43 AM

I'm likely to agree with Ansorge10 ... Forums are not really a breeding ground for Grammatically correct English anyway...

boardjnky4 01-09-2014 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greeko (Post 1858779)
I'm likely to agree with Ansorge10 ... Forums are not really a breeding ground for Grammatically correct English anyway...

You're communicating via typed words. It's not unreasonable to expect people to use proper grammar as best they can.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 12:23 PM

To the Op, based on my experience, NSS is the best system, however I have not tried Supra's or MC's. The only thing we know to be definitive fact is that Tige does not have a surf system and that "there is no replacement for displacement."

To all the people who don't like me: I don't like you, except Robert, I like him.

Ansorge10 01-09-2014 12:33 PM

I never said I was above the 2nd grade so what does it matter?


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timmyb 01-09-2014 12:41 PM

That will definitely be an interesting lawsuit. Will Nautique go after Moomba as well? Moomba's system is basically a manual version of NSS.

Pad1Tai 01-09-2014 1:02 PM

"there is no replacement for displacement"..

I'd have to agree with the ranger on this one.... The new systems "tune" the wake and clean it up but don't make it any bigger..

If we all want gramatically correct posts, we'll have to get Da Moose in on this.....

boardjnky4 01-09-2014 1:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmyb (Post 1858794)
That will definitely be an interesting lawsuit. Will Nautique go after Moomba as well? Moomba's system is basically a manual version of NSS.

Did they file for a patent on NSS?

tonyv420 01-09-2014 1:37 PM

I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!

JetRanger 01-09-2014 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyv420 (Post 1858806)
I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!


Agreed, everything else is merely conjecture and supposition!

timmyb 01-09-2014 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 (Post 1858802)
Did they file for a patent on NSS?

Actually, it doesn't look like it. I thought they had:
http://www.nautique.com/models/nauti...f-system?id=93

timmyb 01-09-2014 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyv420 (Post 1858806)
I third that statement..." There is no replacement for displacement" !!!

Malibu Wedge doesn't think so. :banghead:

JetRanger 01-09-2014 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmyb (Post 1858819)
Malibu Wedge doesn't think so. :banghead:


Doesn't the wedge draw the transom deeper into the water thus increasing displacement? Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Chaos 01-09-2014 4:25 PM

Depends on what you are talking about, as far as systems. As indicated above, Malibu was the first to receive a patent, but not necessarily first. There are a handful of systems out there in use by other manufactures that could be interpreted as floating into the Malibu patent, but there are just as many systems out there that are virtually nothing like the bu system in form and function. Patent doesn't prevent another manufacture from developing and implementing something similar. It is up to the patent holder to legally protect their rights, as Malibu may or may not be doing at this point. Surfgate, NSS, moomba 'cattle gate', etc., these are all what some refer to as 'salad plate' add-ons. Not much to them, and similar structures have been bolted on to boats by owners for many years.

I have driven, ridden or been in the boat watching other riders on most systems. There are a lot of systems out there and some really nice ones. I have my top 3 in my head, and the systems do not necessarily correlate with my top 3 boats.

cwb4me 01-09-2014 5:01 PM

Malibu was the First i think we all can agree. The real question is "Are they the Best"? Let's discuss this further.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 5:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858833)
Malibu was the First i think we all can agree. The real question is "Are they the Best"? Let's discuss this further.


Malibu the first? If we want to get technical MC was first. You know who doesn't have a horse in the rave yet? Ti-guh!

zimme 01-09-2014 5:17 PM

Mastercraft has had surf tabs for many years prior to malibus surf gate. Not the same idea, but bu basically elaborated on a "surf tab".

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boardjnky4 01-09-2014 6:04 PM

Mastercraft's original surf tab didn't allow surfing with an evenly weighted boat.

cwb4me 01-09-2014 6:11 PM

I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858846)
I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.


No replacement for displacement we all stipulate that...

piper907 01-09-2014 6:45 PM

I really like my Switchblade and IMO there is no replacement for displacement. My blade is a good replacement for about 2500lbs worth of displacement... and Pivotal Designs has been around for a while. I don't know who was first, but I had my blade for two years before I heard about surfgate or NSS or Pavati's NSS.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 7:17 PM

There is nothing like displacement and it knows no replacement.

Ttime41 01-09-2014 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858846)
I won't mention any names but professional surfers prefer a listed boat no matter who the manufacturer is. They agree the listed boat has more push and a longer pocket.

Until Tige comes out with a surf system, then you'll start singing the evenly weighted praise like it's your job!

cwb4me 01-10-2014 3:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ttime41 (Post 1858868)
Until Tige comes out with a surf system, then you'll start singing the evenly weighted praise like it's your job!

Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.;)

Fixable 01-10-2014 5:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 (Post 1858843)
Mastercraft's original surf tab didn't allow surfing with an evenly weighted boat.

It did if you were only using stock ballast. (on some hulls..... X25, X30, X2) More so on the '12 and later boats, as they had bigger tabs. That being said, nobody wanted to surf with just stock weight.

JetRanger 01-10-2014 5:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858886)
Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.;)


So what you're saying is that there is no replacement for displacement?

timmyb 01-10-2014 8:09 AM

Didn't Sanger have surf tabs first?

davesetter 01-10-2014 8:56 AM

I bought a MKZ with surf gate in November and only got to ride behind it once before it got too cold to ride. The biggest difference I could see between it's wake and my listed VLX was that the swell was bigger and more parallel to the boat path. This was without my uninstalled plug and play ballast.

JetRanger 01-10-2014 9:11 AM

Who was first to patent "there is no replacement for displacement?"

davesetter 01-10-2014 10:36 AM

Sorry...I meant perpendicular not parallel.

timmyb 01-10-2014 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1858943)
Who was first to patent "there is no replacement for displacement?"

GM in the 50's with the 409?

cjh1669 01-10-2014 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858886)
Limited minds read what they can comprehend. I stated a listed boat has more push and a longer pocket REGARDLESS of the Manufacturer.Try it one more time and read SLOWLY.;)

The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.

cwb4me 01-10-2014 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1859018)
The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.

I totally agree a listed boat makes a better wave. You also have more options with a unlisted wave.You choose a better wave or a surfable wave all on the same boat.

SecretSquirrel 01-10-2014 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1859018)
The great part is you can still list a surfgate boat if you want, or you can use the gates. Many more options than a boat without a surf system.

Listing a boat with surfgate defeats the freaking purpose of surfgate. You end up with a short, soft, tall wave on the off surf side. Rendering switching sides "on the fly" irrelevant. It takes a freaking savant to be able to switch sides "on the fly" with the boat listed to one side or the other.

cjh1669 01-10-2014 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel (Post 1859034)
Listing a boat with surfgate defeats the freaking purpose of surfgate. You end up with a short, soft, tall wave on the off surf side. Rendering switching sides "on the fly" irrelevant. It takes a freaking savant to be able to switch sides "on the fly" with the boat listed to one side or the other.

You don't use the surfgate when you list it. You can list it if you want a different type of wave.

Ansorge10 01-10-2014 12:55 PM

If someone wants to drop the money on one of these boats let them list the boat with the gate if that's what they want. Maybe switching sides on the fly isn't what they are going for. Maybe the wanted it because of how easy it makes setting up for surfing.


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boardjnky4 01-10-2014 1:26 PM

He meant that if you list the boat, you would NOT deploy the gate. Some people still prefer a listed boat, even with the gate.

At this point, buying a malibu without surfgate would destroy resale value. You may also go out on the boat with a group of newbies that want to learn, and in that case it's probably easier to just use surfgate so you can switch sides easily for different people or whatever. Point is, you have more options.

cjh1669 01-10-2014 1:29 PM

The big thing is you have the option for both. Surfgate is huge for me since I'm goofy and I hated waiting to switch the ballast, plus you couldn't get as many people on the starboard side sets, so you never had the kind of weight you had port. I've ridden the LSV both listed and with surfgate and on the goofy wave it's actually better with surfgate. So we can list or we can gate, that's the big plus of having them.

SecretSquirrel 01-10-2014 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1859056)
The big thing is you have the option for both. Surfgate is huge for me since I'm goofy and I hated waiting to switch the ballast, plus you couldn't get as many people on the starboard side sets, so you never had the kind of weight you had port. I've ridden the LSV both listed and with surfgate and on the goofy wave it's actually better with surfgate. So we can list or we can gate, that's the big plus of having them.

Just get a Centurion then if you're that guy. RAMFILL, CATS, Deep-V hull. Boom done. Unless you think you're that guy who's going to switch sides "on the fly". Have fun with that.

rullery 01-10-2014 1:53 PM

Is switching sides on the fly more a novelty than an important feature? You see it all the time on the videos, and it looks cool, but then what?

SecretSquirrel 01-10-2014 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rullery (Post 1859061)
Is switching sides on the fly more a novelty than an important feature? You see it all the time on the videos, and it looks cool, but then what?

Yes, It's not all it's cracked up to be. If it was a huge deal wouldn't the "pro surfers" be migrating to the "wake shaping device" boats?

timmyb 01-10-2014 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel (Post 1859067)
Yes, It's not all it's cracked up to be. If it was a huge deal wouldn't the "pro surfers" be migrating to the "wake shaping device" boats?

They will surf behind anything you GIVE them.;)

loudelectronics 01-16-2014 7:54 AM

There is no replacement for displacement as Jet Ranger suggests.

Tige has the first patented wave shaping device. Its called TAPS2 with convex V. This allows you to shape the wake from mellow to steep. Use with speed and you can change pocket length. Further to this and not sure why people dismiss the Convex VX. This is the first and only patented device used in the industry to actually enhance the wave itself. Using the principle that there is no replacement for displacement, the VX is the only surf system made to channel the displaced water into a longer wake. No other device (NSS, Surfgate) enhances (size and length) the wave. Last I checked when surfing you wanted to have the most useable wave and the VX is the only one to do such a thing.

Yes the other systems allow for switching sides on the fly, but that is it. They do not enhance the wake length or size (no replacement for displacement), they are simply there for convenience of switching sides, cleaning up the lip and smoke and mirrors. Great to have when you have riders that are not all the same foot forward and also for teaching newbies. When you are ready to rip it up and want a serious wake, there is no replacement for displacement and how that displacement is channeled into a solid wake.

The big 3 were scrambling to get into the surfing game so they needed to release these gadgets to have something. Tige, Centurion, MB, Supreme all have superior wakesurf wakes with minimal gadgets. Just sink them down and go. Simple, cheap and still cant be beat. You can buy anyone one of these late model boats in the 2003-20011 range for good value and will still put out a wake better than anyone of the boats with these special surf systems. Just have to pull up the dress and start chucking sacs. It is just much easier to flip a switch and watch it on a fancy touch screen.

Don't get me wrong, I like all the advancements companies are putting out. They have there place but it is just a start. Me as a surfer could care less about switching on the fly. Me as an instructor though sees great value in switching on the fly when you never know what footed person you might get. I still do prefer ballast and wedges to sink the boat down over anything else though.

JetRanger 01-16-2014 9:13 AM

^^^

Ti-guh first to (there is no replacement for displacement) market with wake shaping device? I thought MC was with surf tabs? Tige only wake shaping device on market? MC Gen 2, Supra Swell, Nautique (there is no replacement for displacement) NSS, etc...
There is no replacement for displacement? There is no replacement for displacement.

This is the most laughable Tige pump in history. We are all rendered stupider by having read it. Convex VX is a joke in (there is no replacement for displacement) every way imaginable.

You said one thing right though when referring to Tige, Centurion, Supreme, and MB...you said "just sink them."
That's right, scuttle those sucker skiffs and buy from the Big Three! Just don't scuttle the Ti-guh in an environmentally sensitive area as it will not grow barnacles or coral which is ever so important to the biodiversity of aquatic ecosystems.

Klink (sound of a well-stuck fastball)!

rullery 01-16-2014 9:37 AM

*Cue salty SecretSquirrel comment

Jet, please continue to humor us on why specifically Tiguh's VX is a joke thanks

JetRanger 01-16-2014 1:27 PM

Was Malibu Surfgate First?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rullery (Post 1860184)
*Cue salty SecretSquirrel comment

Jet, please continue to humor us on why specifically Tiguh's VX is a joke thanks


A joke as per Wikipedia is something done, written or said with humorous intention.

That specific enough?

"When it comes to displacement there can be no replacement"
-Mastercraft Engineer

cwb4me 01-16-2014 3:41 PM

I don't mind a listed boat because my wife is Regular and I'm Goofy. I surf on whichever side is set up. That's called challenging yourself. Any boat i ride on i ride Regular or Goofy and Backside or Frontside. I guess i'm preparing for switching on the fly.Challenge yourself and you to won't mind which side is filled up. And yes i do prefer a longer pocket.

timmyb 01-16-2014 3:57 PM

I think he was talking about their hull design, Convex V. Not the new convex vx device that they have come out with recently.

SecretSquirrel 01-16-2014 4:31 PM

I really like Tige's hull design, its arguably the most versatile hull design out there. That's never been an issue in my book. You can reference THIS THREAD if you really want to go down that road. Posted by Tige owners themselves on the Tige Owners forum. I can't say it any better then you guys did.

You want to talk about a one trick pony hull design. Look no further than Mastercrap. Great boat for tubing.

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/assets/3869...son_medium.gif

JetRanger 01-16-2014 7:03 PM

^Great thread, goes to show Tiguh can't even copy a hull right.

timmyb 01-17-2014 8:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel (Post 1860268)
You want to talk about a one trick pony hull design. Look no further than Mastercrap. Great boat for tubing.

:D

Ttime41 01-17-2014 8:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1860257)
I don't mind a listed boat because my wife is Regular and I'm Goofy. I surf on whichever side is set up. That's called challenging yourself. Any boat i ride on i ride Regular or Goofy and Backside or Frontside. I guess i'm preparing for switching on the fly.Challenge yourself and you to won't mind which side is filled up. And yes i do prefer a longer pocket.

The real question here is can the Tige put out a surfable wave with a 95 ft long pocket. No ballast, of course

JetRanger 01-17-2014 8:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ttime41 (Post 1860373)
The real question here is can the Tige put out a surfable wave with a 95 ft long pocket. No ballast, of course


Only thing Ti-guh does well is be crappy.

tampawake 01-17-2014 8:59 AM

Baltimore had the nation's highest rates of syphilis and gonorrhea: 99 cases of syphilis per 100,000 people, or 33 times the national average, and 991 cases of gonorrhea per 100,000 people, more than eight times the national rate. The city also had 898 cases of chlamydia per 100,000, more than four times the national rate.

JetRanger 01-17-2014 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tampawake (Post 1860378)
Baltimore had the nation's highest rates of syphilis and gonorrhea: 99 cases of syphilis per 100,000 people, or 33 times the national average, and 991 cases of gonorrhea per 100,000 people, more than eight times the national rate. The city also had 898 cases of chlamydia per 100,000, more than four times the national rate.


You seem to know a lot about STD's...which is funny considering the abstinence I'm assuming you have had thrust upon you...

JetRangerThePoser 01-17-2014 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1860423)
You seem to know a lot about STD's...which is funny considering the abstinence I'm assuming you have had thrust upon you...

lighten up, Francis.

zap 01-18-2014 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1858834)
Malibu the first? If we want to get technical MC was first. You know who doesn't have a horse in the rave yet? Ti-guh!

If you want to get technical CATS was first

wakebrdr94 01-27-2014 8:49 PM

Does anyone have experience with the cats system? I'm curious how it is to drive. Tracking fins do just that, helps the boat track straight when the riders are pulling on the back of the boat cutting out. With that's cats fun unwound think it would force the boat to one direction and you would have to counter steer. In the video as the boat was changing side to side, they were not tracking straight, the boat was still turning left and right depending on the list.


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cwb4me 01-28-2014 3:22 AM

Jet you forgot to post something in this thread.


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