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-   -   G21+NSS vs. X25+surf gen 2 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800832)

BoarderBlasiman 01-09-2014 8:44 AM

G21+NSS vs. X25+surf gen 2
 
I want to hear from the people who have been in both boats. I know both companies make a great boat but I want to hear what people think are the pro's and con's without getting into to too much brand loyalty.

boardman74 01-09-2014 9:27 AM

Are G21's in dealerships yet? The reveal was after the season was over in most area's. Your going to have a tough time finding a non paid Nautique team member or dealer that has been in one in the water.

FunkyBunch 01-09-2014 10:26 AM

This is the only review I have seen of it.

http://reader.bonniercorp.com/g/wkbg...ew/wkbbg14/h/1

Fixable 01-09-2014 11:15 AM

Nobody is going to have data on either one...... They were both only released a few weeks ago....

That being said, I would be willing to bet that the G21 is going to put out a bigger stock wake for surfing or wakeboarding, It will have a top notch shape to both wakes, it will Have more storage, and it WILL cost $20,000 more than the X25.

The X25, is going to have a small amount more interior room, it will be better looking, and more comfortable inside, And has an excellent stock wakeboard wake for riders of an intermediate level and up (Low speed wake under 20mph is hard to keep clean), ........ it will need at least 1500lbs of additional ballast bags to compete surfwise. And even then, nobody knows how well Gen2 will work with that much weight.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 11:47 AM

X25 will be bigger inside, built better, better stereo and will compete with the wakeboard wake of the G21. It will also be lighter therefore will tow easier and will cost less. It will be more comfortable and be a better status symbol which will help with the ladies and the gawkers at the launch. Can't comment on Gen2, still too new.

The G21 will get a great surf wake stock and NSS is by now proven. The G series has been plagued with driveshaft issues however and the PCM power plant CANNOT compete with Ilmor.

soonerbilly 01-09-2014 12:47 PM

Dang jet....thats almost a legit info post........you sick?

ToPHeR35 01-09-2014 1:06 PM

What kind of ballast are we looking at with the X25? MC doesn't do a good job of advertising this ballast # on their website...

JetRanger 01-09-2014 1:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soonerbilly (Post 1858780)
Dang jet....thats almost a legit info post........you sick?


What about it isn't legit?

RideGull 01-09-2014 1:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToPHeR35 (Post 1858781)
What kind of ballast are we looking at with the X25? MC doesn't do a good job of advertising this ballast # on their website...

They don't advertise it because it's so little. About 900lbs in an X25.
They push their hull design as opposed to more ballast to make a good wake.
Don't get me wrong, X25 is probably my favorite in the MC lineup for both boat and wake, but after driving the G21, I wouldn't want anything else.

wakedaveup 01-09-2014 1:53 PM

Eric, you sound incredibly conifdent that an equally equipped G21 "WILL" cost 20,000 more than a G21. Can you please enlighten me on how you consider this a "FACT" and please post your evidence if possible.

wakedaveup 01-09-2014 1:54 PM

sorry for the typo "an equally equipped X25"

davez71 01-09-2014 2:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1858767)
X25 will be bigger inside, built better, better stereo and will compete with the wakeboard wake of the G21. It will also be lighter therefore will tow easier and will cost less. It will be more comfortable and be a better status symbol which will help with the ladies and the gawkers at the launch. Can't comment on Gen2, still too new.

The G21 will get a great surf wake stock and NSS is by now proven. The G series has been plagued with driveshaft issues however and the PCM power plant CANNOT compete with Ilmor.

I used to really enjoy WW and the content that was available on the site but with trolls like JETRanger (where some think it is funny), I find myself reading the forum less and less because you will always get this smartass answer from a kid that probably hasn’t hit puberty yet. People come on here for information about many different aspects of boating and its guaranteed that JetRanger will post some stupid rely..... Do yourself and the rest of WW a favor.....JUST STOP.. its not cute, funny or even enjoyable to read. Grow the f**k up and stop hiding behind a computer screen trolling....

RideGull 01-09-2014 2:22 PM

While jetranger can be a little obnoxious at times, he did have pretty informative posts concerning Tige hulls.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davez71 (Post 1858801)
I used to really enjoy WW and the content that was available on the site but with trolls like JETRanger (where some think it is funny), I find myself reading the forum less and less because you will always get this smartass answer from a kid that probably hasn’t hit puberty yet. People come on here for information about many different aspects of boating and its guaranteed that JetRanger will post some stupid rely..... Do yourself and the rest of WW a favor.....JUST STOP.. its not cute, funny or even enjoyable to read. Grow the f**k up and stop hiding behind a computer screen trolling....


I'm surprised people here still take my comments at face value...

BoarderBlasiman 01-09-2014 3:45 PM

Ok let's knock a few things out of the equation to make this easier. Both boats are expensive, duh and I wanted to hear from people who have actually been inside the boats. I myself have tested the G21 but have never been in the X25.

Fixable 01-09-2014 4:00 PM

Well, Dave..... Without using the actual dealer quote sheet....which would be a bit rude IMO... Feel free to call a dealer and run just a couple numbers by them. They will be EXACT, and that's a FACT.

And actually, if you give me your email, I can send you a fun little pricing sheet set for all of the CC boats.

These are all straight off each manufacturers MSRP sheets.

These were the two specs I ran-
G21 Base- $109,875.00
XS550- $24.582.00
NSS-$2674.00
Bimini-$3214.00
Tower Speaker prep kit-$1302.00
Over tower cover-$1102.00
Heater-$722
Cupholder LEDs-$412.00
UW Lights-$781.00
Armrests-$657.00 (Standard on X25)
Heated Seat-$328.00
Sunpad Filler-$678.00 (Standard X25)
Transom Remote- $418.00
Walk through Air Dam-$1176.00 (Standard on X25)
Chromax Graphics-$206.00 (Standard on X25)
Tandem Axle Boatmate, Basic- $5400.00(Actual)

Total For G21- $153,527.00
Total For G21 if you went with the XR550 instead-$147,141.00

X25 Base-$91,540.00
7.4l Ilmore-$21,260.00
Over Tower Cover-$1270.00
Bimini-$1140.00
Gen2 Surf-$3730.00
Amp+Sub-$1360.00
Transom Remote-$340.00
Heater-$910.00
UW Lighting-$1150.00
Heated Seats-$720.00
Wakeboard Tower License-$100.00
Tandem Axle boatmate-$5400.00 (Actual)

X25 Total- $128,920.00


Being as MCs MSRP markup is generally more. The gap would usually spread on a well negotiated deal (Only A little bit). For the sake of argument, lets say the markup is the same. Lets call it a .85 multiplier on a fairly well negotiated deal....

G23 as Specd-$130,497.00 or $125,069.00 if you go with the XR.

X25 as Specd-$109,582.00

So, sorry, I guess it would be only $16k if you went with the cheaper engine...... But wait, the X25 is significantly lighter, and if you powered it according to weight (roughly 10lbs per HP), you would go with a LS3, which is 10k cheaper than the 7.4l..... So that's back to $26k.

BoarderBlasiman 01-09-2014 4:09 PM

Again not interested in price at all.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 4:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarderBlasiman (Post 1858820)
Again not interested in price at all.


Money is no object? Buy one of each then. Pretty standard...

Fixable 01-09-2014 4:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarderBlasiman (Post 1858820)
Again not interested in price at all.

Sorry OP. Dave was interested in the data, and I must have been in the middle of the reply, when you posted that.....

I owned an X25 for about 3 years. No Gen2 though, obviously. If you have other general questions, I can help. (Handling, ride, Wakeboard wake, surfing without using tabs, etc.)

JetRanger 01-09-2014 4:15 PM

Are looks a factor for you, cause the X25 is waaaaayyyy better looking than the Super Aiiiiyeer Antique.

BoarderBlasiman 01-09-2014 4:21 PM

I'm looking at performance enhancing features and aspects. They are both cool looking boats that is a matter of personal opinion.
I'm looking at aspects like the tower does it fold how easy is it sturdy how does the Bimini look and work with it. As far as engines I don't care about the biggest motor u can put in it. I want to know what motor you can load full of ballast and people and be fine. Also reliable what problems will come up with the engine. Another aspect storage how much where it's at in the boat and is it easy to utilize. Another is seating. How comfortable is it really both for cruising and for watching people behind the boat. If were looking at a boat at this level price should not be your main focus.

Fixable 01-09-2014 4:38 PM

Ease of folding tower-Both are fairly easy. X25 will be a little easier with either tower. But the G is very easy as well. Both have very sturdy towers.
Bimini- Both look ok. And yes, it is worth it.
The G21 would be fine fully loaded with the 6.0l 450. The X25 would be equivalent with the 6.0l. 382hp.
Both will be plenty reliable. the Ilmore is a little easier to service.
G21 has more storage, and the back compartments are gigantic and don't have to be filled with ballast. The rest of the storage will be about the same as the X25. The cavern storage in the X25 is a little bigger.
The X25 has more comfortable seating. The seats are more plush, and a lot of areas are curved so that they wrap around a little for better comfort. The G is all flat and a little stiffer. The seat bases are shallower and the seat backs are almost 90 degrees upright. It is still fairly comfortable, but not nearly as much as the X25.

Sheer stock wake performance is going to go to the G21, easily. The X25 has one of the best stock wakeboard wakes, but I doubt it will match the G21. And surfing will be no question in stock form..... That will definitely go to the G. The X25 surfs pretty well with a bunch of added ballast, but I doubt it could ever quite match the G21 if you added weight to it.

boardman74 01-09-2014 5:53 PM

I think it really makes these threads when the…"cost doesn't matter"…."I don't care what they charge"…."I can pay cash for any of them"……"I can just write a check" comes out. I like to think the Wife and I do OK for ourself, but 16K(or 20K) will always matter to me. I wish I had 125K in my pocket to go throw down on either of these boats!! You rich folks make my day….someday if i keep working hard!!

JetRanger 01-09-2014 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardman74 (Post 1858832)
I think it really makes these threads when the…"cost doesn't matter"…."I don't care what they charge"…."I can pay cash for any of them"……"I can just write a check" comes out. I like to think the Wife and I do OK for ourself, but 16K(or 20K) will always matter to me. I wish I had 125K in my pocket to go throw down on either of these boats!! You rich folks make my day….someday if i keep working hard!!


I doubt he's rich...

cwb4me 01-09-2014 6:11 PM

I could pay cash for either boat. But the fact that i have that cash tells you i care about saving money not spending money. Anyone with that much cash or that good of a credit rating is smart enough to do their research before dropping that much coin.No one wants to spend a lot of money unless their trying to prove their worth more than they really are.

JetRanger 01-09-2014 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858837)
I could pay cash for either boat. But the fact that i have that cash tells you i care about saving money not spending money. Anyone with that much cash or that good of a credit rating is smart enough to do their research before dropping that much coin.No one wants to spend a lot of money unless their trying to prove their worth more than they really are.


Oh yeah? You could pay cash? You and the Op should have a "rich-off" to see who is richer.

My dad could buy Correct Craft or Mastercraft if he wanted too...the companies I mean.

Now do you see how stupid you sound talking about "paying cash for either." You could have made your point without pointing out how rich you are...

cwb4me 01-09-2014 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetRanger (Post 1858839)
Oh yeah? You could pay cash? You and the Op should have a "rich-off" to see who is richer.

My dad could buy Correct Craft or Mastercraft if he wanted too...the companies I mean.

Now do you see how stupid you sound talking about "paying cash for either." You could have made your point without pointing out how rich you are...

You act as if you're jealous or you don't believe me. I was just pointing out people that have that much cash are people who save money not spend it.;)

JetRanger 01-09-2014 7:19 PM

G21+NSS vs. X25+surf gen 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cwb4me (Post 1858841)
You act as if you're jealous or you don't believe me. I was just pointing out people that have that much cash are people who save money not spend it.;)

A man who would shave his beard for a woman deserves neither...

RideGull 01-10-2014 7:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fixable (Post 1858827)
Ease of folding tower-Both are fairly easy. X25 will be a little easier with either tower. But the G is very easy as well. Both have very sturdy towers.
Bimini- Both look ok. And yes, it is worth it.
The G21 would be fine fully loaded with the 6.0l 450. The X25 would be equivalent with the 6.0l. 382hp.
Both will be plenty reliable. the Ilmore is a little easier to service.
G21 has more storage, and the back compartments are gigantic and don't have to be filled with ballast. The rest of the storage will be about the same as the X25. The cavern storage in the X25 is a little bigger.
The X25 has more comfortable seating. The seats are more plush, and a lot of areas are curved so that they wrap around a little for better comfort. The G is all flat and a little stiffer. The seat bases are shallower and the seat backs are almost 90 degrees upright. It is still fairly comfortable, but not nearly as much as the X25.

Sheer stock wake performance is going to go to the G21, easily. The X25 has one of the best stock wakeboard wakes, but I doubt it will match the G21. And surfing will be no question in stock form..... That will definitely go to the G. The X25 surfs pretty well with a bunch of added ballast, but I doubt it could ever quite match the G21 if you added weight to it.

This is about spot on.
I do have to strongly disagree about Ilmor. Those engines are a pain in the butt.
And the G21 will work great with stock ballast + people with the 6.0L 409 engine. The 450 isn't neccessary. I got on plane faster than my 230 (409 also) with 3,000lbs of weight. The NCRS works wonders on the G series.
I can't comment much on the driveability or wake of the X25 (only ridden once), but I've spent a decent amount of time hanging out in MCs. The interior is very nice. Almost like a couch inside a boat. But I feel this takes up a lot of extra space which is why the G21 feels bigger. I don't like feeling cramped while on the water.

As for your numbers, I guess I'm not doubting you, but getting an X25 with a 7.4 for $109 seems extremely cheap!

Fixable 01-10-2014 8:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RideGull (Post 1858895)
This is about spot on.
I do have to strongly disagree about Ilmor. Those engines are a pain in the butt.
And the G21 will work great with stock ballast + people with the 6.0L 409 engine. The 450 isn't neccessary. I got on plane faster than my 230 (409 also) with 3,000lbs of weight. The NCRS works wonders on the G series.
I can't comment much on the driveability or wake of the X25 (only ridden once), but I've spent a decent amount of time hanging out in MCs. The interior is very nice. Almost like a couch inside a boat. But I feel this takes up a lot of extra space which is why the G21 feels bigger. I don't like feeling cramped while on the water.

As for your numbers, I guess I'm not doubting you, but getting an X25 with a 7.4 for $109 seems extremely cheap!


I am curious why you think an ilmore is a PITA?? I love having the oil filter remotely mounted with its own drain so oil doesn't get anywhere when you change the filter..... Drain hose is right at the filter assy too. Accessory drive components are high mounted, etc..... I am not up to date on PCM though. I just know that I love servicing the Ilmore compared to the Indmar's that I was used to.

As for the pricing..... That .85 multiplier is probably low for a lot of regions (high for some), or a Marina that doesn't sell many boats. However, the same could be said for the G21 pricing. I kept everything the same, and used the same multiplier just to show the price gap between the 2. The X25 is a boat that competes with the SAN230, and the SAN230 with the same options I listed, prices almost identical to the X25. It makes perfect sense.

Both boats can be spec'd higher as well. You could get an X25 specd almost 15k higher than that. But if you added those things to the G as well, the price still goes up the same. (Flake, colored hull, deck color, logo carpet, tower speakers, tower lights, etc.....)

Being as I always reuse the tower speakers and lights that I already have, I didn't have them in those specs. That is a lot of the reason that they seem a bit on the cheap side, as most would order with that stuff.

boardman74 01-10-2014 8:08 AM

Again some day I hope to be among the WW elite, so I can say things like "109K seems extremely cheap"!!!

RideGull 01-10-2014 8:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardman74 (Post 1858898)
Again some day I hope to be among the WW elite, so I can say things like "109K seems extremely cheap"!!!

Relax.
It's cheap for an X25 with a $25k motor.

boardman74 01-10-2014 9:15 AM

I've had my morning coffee and breakfast…I'm about as relaxed as one could be. I think most "average" people on here would agree cheap and 109K for a boat probably don't belong in the same sentence.

Also since when did a GM 7.4(good old 454) become worth 25 grand? I know some of the fancy bolt ons add some value, but for that are they bolting diamonds to it? Mastercraft really charges a 25K upgrade for that motor?

Gotmods 01-10-2014 9:35 AM

What is the issue with the Ilmor? Please elaborate.

Fixable 01-10-2014 9:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardman74 (Post 1858916)
I've had my morning coffee and breakfast…I'm about as relaxed as one could be. I think most "average" people on here would agree cheap and 109K for a boat probably don't belong in the same sentence.

Also since when did a GM 7.4(good old 454) become worth 25 grand? I know some of the fancy bolt ons add some value, but for that are they bolting diamonds to it? Mastercraft really charges a 25K upgrade for that motor?

That engine doesn't share a single component with the "good ole 454". It is not a "good ole 454" at all. It just happens do displace 7.4 liters. That is the only thing it has in common.

That is like asking "why does Nautique charge 25k for the LSA. It is just a good ole LS3"

And not that it matters much, but the 7.4 is 21k. It is the PCM XS550 that is 25k.


That being said. The prices for any of these big engines is ridiculous.

nautiboy614 01-10-2014 9:41 AM

I really like this thread - I am in the market to upgrade and these 2 boats are my top 2 choices, I talked with my nautique dealers......most likely it is not happening on the fact that my boat (2012 SA 210 loaded out all options, 450hp engine Paid roughly 107K 1 1/2yrs ago) has depreciated 47K in that little time, I am making the drive to the MC dealer next weekend to see if the numbers are better if I go with a X25. Money is always a factor, I feel I can make a enjoyable wake out of any brand boat, slam it with a bunch of weight and most brands can make a good wake.

Fixable 01-10-2014 9:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nautiboy614 (Post 1858925)
Paid roughly 107K 1 1/2yrs ago) has depreciated 47K in that little time, .

:eek:

Ouch!

List that thing. I gotta believe you could get 75-80k for that high spec 210, as long as it is in great shape.

RideGull 01-10-2014 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fixable (Post 1858897)
I am curious why you think an ilmore is a PITA?? I love having the oil filter remotely mounted with its own drain so oil doesn't get anywhere when you change the filter..... Drain hose is right at the filter assy too. Accessory drive components are high mounted, etc..... I am not up to date on PCM though. I just know that I love servicing the Ilmore compared to the Indmar's that I was used to.

As for the pricing..... That .85 multiplier is probably low for a lot of regions (high for some), or a Marina that doesn't sell many boats. However, the same could be said for the G21 pricing. I kept everything the same, and used the same multiplier just to show the price gap between the 2. The X25 is a boat that competes with the SAN230, and the SAN230 with the same options I listed, prices almost identical to the X25. It makes perfect sense.

Both boats can be spec'd higher as well. You could get an X25 specd almost 15k higher than that. But if you added those things to the G as well, the price still goes up the same. (Flake, colored hull, deck color, logo carpet, tower speakers, tower lights, etc.....)

Being as I always reuse the tower speakers and lights that I already have, I didn't have them in those specs. That is a lot of the reason that they seem a bit on the cheap side, as most would order with that stuff.

I used to work at an MC dealers proshop so my experience with Ilmor comes from talking with the the service dept. and mechanics. They all dislike the engines due to the amount of problems they had with them. Maybe basic maintenance like an oil/filter change was easy , but with the amount of over heating issues, blown exhaust hoses, lack of Ilmor dealership support, they got pretty frustrated.
Also being at this dealer, I was able to see cost vs sale price on new boats. I wont disclose those numbers for the dealers sake, but that's why I thought your X25 numbers seemed strange to me.

As for Indmar, they have definitely gotten a lot better. I used to have a 2006 Supra that was in the shop everyday but being around the new ones now, i havent seen nearly as many problems as older models.
PCM has been great. Had one bad o2 sensor (after cats) on my boat during break in but that was an easy warranty fix and wouldnt have caused damage either way. I'm at 400 hours on my 2012 230 with 0 issues. Now this is the only PCM ive owned, but my work with an old CC dealer showed similar results. Plus the G series has easy access to ballast pumps, water filters, etc through the cabin floor hatch.
I don't have any physical experience doing maintenance on engines. I can do oil changes/winterizing and all that, but i prefer having a dealer do it in case of mistakes.

This is just what i have encountered with each brand of engine. Everyone has different experiences.

RideGull 01-10-2014 9:56 AM

[QUOTE=Fixable;1858923]
And not that it matters much, but the 7.4 is 21k. It is the PCM XS550 that is 25k.
[QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification. I tried to remember the best I could!

migs 01-10-2014 9:58 AM

PCM > the rest...currently.

Fixable 01-10-2014 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RideGull (Post 1858931)
I used to work at an MC dealers proshop so my experience with Ilmor comes from talking with the the service dept. and mechanics. They all dislike the engines due to the amount of problems they had with them. Maybe basic maintenance like an oil/filter change was easy , but with the amount of over heating issues, blown exhaust hoses, lack of Ilmor dealership support, they got pretty frustrated.

Well, I guess that is contrary to anything I have ever heard about them. I know that the first couple 6.0s, and 7.4s had an overheating issue if they idled for more than 10-15 minutes, but that was recognized and corrected within a month or two of those engines being released. That is the only problem I ever heard about them. I am very active on TT, and have not heard a peep about Ilmore....... Which is a lot different than the pre-ilmore days. It makes sense that they would have a hiccup or two, when they started. But it has been very quiet ever since the first few months after they were released.



I do know that I have logged over 800 hours on Ilmores, and have not had to touch a single thing on one of them.

PCM makes a great package, and I never said otherwise. I just said that the ilmore was easier to service, which it is.

Gotmods 01-10-2014 10:30 AM

I do all my own service. Before I had MC I had Nauty. Before that I had supra. Ilmor is my favorite. They are easy to service and I like how the starter and alternator are up high.
The impeller will burn up if they are dry fired. PCM is much less sensitive, I know from experience. I think one issue was when they first came out dealers were dry firing them to show potential buyers how great the new ilmor sounded. In fact I told a few buyers who bought in stock boats to demand a new impeller prior to delivery.

RideGull 01-10-2014 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fixable (Post 1858944)
Well, I guess that is contrary to anything I have ever heard about them. I know that the first couple 6.0s, and 7.4s had an overheating issue if they idled for more than 10-15 minutes, but that was recognized and corrected within a month or two of those engines being released. That is the only problem I ever heard about them. I am very active on TT, and have not heard a peep about Ilmore....... Which is a lot different than the pre-ilmore days. It makes sense that they would have a hiccup or two, when they started. But it has been very quiet ever since the first few months after they were released.



I do know that I have logged over 800 hours on Ilmores, and have not had to touch a single thing on one of them.

PCM makes a great package, and I never said otherwise. I just said that the ilmore was easier to service, which it is.

That's awesome that you have had good experience with ilmor!
I feel like that dealership got the shaft on everything. X30s came in with warped hulls, new xstars were blowing exhausted tubes apart, mc put a OPS engine when a freshwater was ordered. Must be bad luck haha.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree as far as service goes.
Although I will agree on pre-ilmor days being a problem for mc. The switch was probably a good one. I'm only familiar with the Assault series of Indmar (Moomba) and those have been pretty good for '12+.

RideGull 01-10-2014 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotmods (Post 1858949)
I do all my own service. Before I had MC I had Nauty. Before that I had supra. Ilmor is my favorite. They are easy to service and I like how the starter and alternator are up high.
The impeller will burn up if they are dry fired. PCM is much less sensitive, I know from experience. I think one issue was when they first came out dealers were dry firing them to show potential buyers how great the new ilmor sounded. In fact I told a few buyers who bought in stock boats to demand a new impeller prior to delivery.

Dealers dry firing? oh my :(
We had to replace a bunch of impellers on new boats just from our lake tests before boats hit the showroom.

Aren't all starters/alternators located high on the engine nowadays?
I know that was an issue with my 06 indmar, alternator was low and got wet

RideGull 01-10-2014 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boardman74 (Post 1858916)
I've had my morning coffee and breakfast…I'm about as relaxed as one could be. I think most "average" people on here would agree cheap and 109K for a boat probably don't belong in the same sentence.

This specific thread is about two very expensive boats. If you are looking for true "cheap" boats, I'm sure theres a used boat thread somewhere on this site.

I'm sure the guys on a ferrari forum would label a brand new car with a 20% markdown from msrp as cheap or "a very good deal".

But for the sake of you being bothered by that word, I'll make sure to rephrase the next time I think a boat is priced under what I usually see it at.

JamesHawk101 01-10-2014 1:41 PM

G21 isnt gonna be near that at all price wise. Also the drive shaft issues have been fixed.

Froggy 01-10-2014 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nautiboy614 (Post 1858925)
I really like this thread - I am in the market to upgrade and these 2 boats are my top 2 choices, I talked with my nautique dealers......most likely it is not happening on the fact that my boat (2012 SA 210 loaded out all options, 450hp engine Paid roughly 107K 1 1/2yrs ago) has depreciated 47K in that little time, I am making the drive to the MC dealer next weekend to see if the numbers are better if I go with a X25. Money is always a factor, I feel I can make a enjoyable wake out of any brand boat, slam it with a bunch of weight and most brands can make a good wake.

What is a SA 210?

migs 01-10-2014 4:24 PM

im guessing 2012 SAN 210

Gotmods 01-10-2014 11:17 PM

Indmar starter is still low.



Super Air Nautique 210.

Froggy 01-11-2014 6:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nautiboy614 (Post 1858925)
I really like this thread - I am in the market to upgrade and these 2 boats are my top 2 choices, I talked with my nautique dealers......most likely it is not happening on the fact that my boat (2012 SA 210 loaded out all options, 450hp engine Paid roughly 107K 1 1/2yrs ago) has depreciated 47K in that little time, I am making the drive to the MC dealer next weekend to see if the numbers are better if I go with a X25. Money is always a factor, I feel I can make a enjoyable wake out of any brand boat, slam it with a bunch of weight and most brands can make a good wake.

I know I am going to regret posting this but I cant just let it go. You must have a very special 210 a definite first for me . I wasn't aware they offered a 450 hp on a 210 in 2012 ? If you payed 107K for a 2012 210 I think you need a different dealer. You can buy a 2014 for less than that. The depreciation on all wakeboats is always highest in the first years but 47k in two years is unheard of. Its common knowledge that Nautique holds its value better than most other brands. Until now I have never heard anyone complain about Nautique resale . You imply depreciation is the reason you are switching brands. Using your numbers you have a 2012 210 SANTE that's only worth 60K now? That would be a great deal for someone .The X25 is not in the same class as a G21 the 230 would be a better match up. IMO if cost if not a factor the best wakeboat /wakesurf boat money can buy today is the G series with NSS. Furthermore anyone that goes to WW as a reference to buying a new boat is just asking for trouble. Go out and test drive them all and buy the one you like best.

JetRanger 01-11-2014 6:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froggy (Post 1859119)
I know I am going to regret posting this but I cant just let it go. You must have a very special 210 a definite first for me . I wasn't aware they offered a 450 hp on a 210 in 2012 ? If you payed 107K for a 2012 210 I think you need a different dealer. You can buy a 2014 for less than that. The depreciation on all wakeboats is always highest in the first years but 47k in two years is unheard of. Its common knowledge that Nautique holds its value better than most other brands. Until now I have never heard anyone complain about Nautique resale . You imply depreciation is the reason you are switching brands. Using your numbers you have a 2012 210 SANTE that's only worth 60K now? That would be a great deal for someone .The X25 is not in the same class as a G21 the 230 would be a better match up. IMO if cost if not a factor the best wakeboat /wakesurf boat money can buy today is the G series with NSS. Furthermore anyone that goes to WW as a reference to buying a new boat is just asking for trouble. Go out and test drive them all and buy the one you like best.


X25 not same class as G21? Please tell us why...

And be specific please...

You are right in one thing in that based on size the X25 better compares to the 230 or even G23 as the G21 is tiinnnnny!

scottb7 01-11-2014 7:16 AM

He might be right about the 2012 being worth 60, give or take.

I paid $41 for my 2008 over a year ago. If you add $6k per year that is around $65. And with g21 out some people will want that one. san 210 is no longer best 21 foot boat nautique makes.

Personally I have not seen any inboard hold value better then any other inboard, after you take in consideration negotiated price.

Here is a 2008 for $47, and of course everyone comes down a bit. http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/sh...-210-low-hours and there are 2 on only inboard for around 48.

High hours but here is a 2011 for $49 http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=41487

The only people that don't want to admit they depreciate like hell are the people that paid big bucks for them. I made money or broke even on both my larson runabouts.

Froggy 01-11-2014 7:44 AM

Both of the 210s you posted are far from loaded you can easily add 10k plus if they were had more options. I'm not going to get in a pissing match between MC and CC . The G21 is a G23 minus 2 feet all of the wakes are as good and some say even better than the G23. Would you compare a X25 to a g23?

RideGull 01-11-2014 10:19 AM

A loaded 2012 210 should have been bought for no more than 95k at the time and should sell now, in good condition, for around 70k.
This is whats normal in the 2 states that I'm very familiar with.

As froggy said above, I'd agree with some saying the G21 wake being better than the G23. Myself included

ironj32 01-11-2014 5:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RideGull (Post 1859134)
As froggy said above, I'd agree with some saying the G21 wake being better than the G23. Myself included

I'm assuming you guys are talking about stock wakes, when comparing G23 to G21? I've talked to a few different Nautique team riders and they've all said that a slammed G23 is still their choice of preference. It'll be a few months before I get to form my own opinion....as soon as we emerge from the Ice Age.

scottb7 01-12-2014 11:41 AM

Honestly, do you think "Nautique team riders" would say anything else? Many, including myself, know from experience that 210 requires less ballast for as good of wake as a 230.

I think the only reasons for bigger boat is need for the space, or the status. Or some combination.

Me, I would love to have a g21. But admittedly it would be for status, as my 2008 sante 210 is all I need.

ironj32 01-12-2014 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottb7 (Post 1859232)
Honestly, do you think "Nautique team riders" would say anything else? Many, including myself, know from experience that 210 requires less ballast for as good of wake as a 230.

Yes, I would. I'm not meaning I talked with them at a boat show, or at some contest or event. I talked with them on their phones about it, as I'm trying to decide whether to order a G23 or G21 for the 2014 season. Also, we're not just talking about a few hundred extra pounds either, we're at 6000 pounds.

Those who have experience, including myself, with slammed 210s and 230s, know that a 230 with 5200 pounds of ballast, has bigger and lippier wake than a 210 can acheive. Yes, you have to be willing to ride at about 26 mph. We've tried getting the 210 to be as nice as the 230, it just can't handle as much weight.

That's why I asked if they were referring to stock ballast or not.

scottb7 01-12-2014 5:57 PM

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't think they could ever be honest. They are too smart. You could quote them and then they would have to deny it. They would not risk it.

5,200 lbs of water in a boat that nautique says has a dry weight of 4650 lbs? I think you just pushed the conversation beyond what 99.9% care about. Congrats.

I say this seriously. Get the g23 and be happy.

501s 01-12-2014 7:31 PM

Jay has a G23 and the dude rips!

thedude 01-12-2014 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froggy (Post 1859119)
I know I am going to regret posting this but I cant just let it go. You must have a very special 210 a definite first for me . I wasn't aware they offered a 450 hp on a 210 in 2012 ? If you payed 107K for a 2012 210 I think you need a different dealer. You can buy a 2014 for less than that. The depreciation on all wakeboats is always highest in the first years but 47k in two years is unheard of. Its common knowledge that Nautique holds its value better than most other brands. Until now I have never heard anyone complain about Nautique resale . You imply depreciation is the reason you are switching brands. Using your numbers you have a 2012 210 SANTE that's only worth 60K now? That would be a great deal for someone .The X25 is not in the same class as a G21 the 230 would be a better match up. IMO if cost if not a factor the best wakeboat /wakesurf boat money can buy today is the G series with NSS. Furthermore anyone that goes to WW as a reference to buying a new boat is just asking for trouble. Go out and test drive them all and buy the one you like best.

A buyer could get the 450hp in a Byerly Super Air 210 in 2012. This must be the boat he is referring to.

wakebordr11 01-12-2014 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 501s (Post 1859289)
Jay has a G23 and the dude rips!

His second G23, and yes he does rip and does post videos of him and his bros shredding the heck out of that wake!

illini88 01-12-2014 10:12 PM

I'll look forward to Jay's review of the 21. He seems to be one of the few out there with both the means to own one and the riding ability to make good use of a wake like that.

ironj32 01-13-2014 8:05 AM

I can't wait to try out the G21. It'll be a few months before we thaw out here in Minnesota, but is definitely a priority on the to-do list.

migs 01-13-2014 9:26 AM

^^^cant wait to see your new G Jay, 21 or 23.

ironj32 01-13-2014 6:49 PM

Thanks, Migs. Since I won't have a chance to get in a 21 before the order deadline, my decision will have to be off of conversations, so I'm 99% sure it'll be the G23 for 2014. Last year was the year of the Stormtrooper, and I think it'll be a Death Star color scheme this year. They made the grey quite-a-bit darker, and I think it'll look sick with black.

To the OP, as mentioned above, I haven't had a chance to check out the G21, but I have been in an X25. It's definitely a nice boat, which I'm sure you'd be pleased with. As far as pros and cons, it's kinda dependent upon your desires because these boats are quite different. For example, I like the enormous amount of freeboard in the G Series boats, where as I've heard others say they'd like it if it had a little less profile (I think it's mostly because of how big it is on a trailer, and the inability to get into garages) . Another pro for me would be that the dry weight of the G21 is quite-a-bit more than that of the X25, but for a lot of people that would be a con. If you want a ginormous stock wake, then that would no doubt be check on the G21 side. If you like the looks of a sleek, sporty boat, then that's a notch for the X25. Both companies are very reputable, and assuming your local dealers for each brand are both dependable, then that is a wash (if they're not equal, then that is something many would take strongly into consideration). If a lower price is what you're looking for then that's another one for the X25. A plush interior is something that MC's are known for. As most others say, you're best bet is to go out and demo both, if you can.

501s 01-13-2014 7:24 PM

just to be clear there probably isnt a single trick that you will be able to throw on a stock G21 that you wouldn't be able to throw on a stock X25 unless you are a REALLY advanced rider. Both have amazing stock wakes. 2 of the best in the business.

illini88 01-14-2014 6:13 AM

did you get last year's 23 sold yet Jay? That thing was a beauty.

Nordicron 01-14-2014 6:59 AM

This is a pretty funny debate. As much as some MC devotees want to say the x-25 is comparable to the g21 wake wise it is not. X-25 STOCK wake is tiny and well the g-21 stock wake is not!!!
OP please demo them both in the conditions you will use. And if you want to try and get a x-25 wake similar in size to the G your gonna need to bring lots of sacs with you. It's a fact. As for wakeboard wake I can tell you that when weight starts adding up on a x-25 not all riders will like the results. The lip it gets can be hard to deal with.


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Fixable 01-14-2014 7:54 AM

Here we go again.... Ron against the world, when the X25 wake comes up....


X25 stock wake is tiny?? Give me a break. Until the G series, it was the best stock wakeboard wake out there. And that included the previous gen XStar, SAN230, etc.

I can agree that it is not as big as the G23 wake. I know that from experience. I am also guessing that it is not as big as the G21. It would make sense...... The wake is still excellent, and if you are exceeding the capabilities of the stock X25 wake.........well.......It's time you went pro.


And if you are adding weight over stock, then you are also pulling at 23-25mph, and that lip is not a problem at those speeds. It's an advantage.

scottb7 01-14-2014 8:29 AM

What do you mean "last year's 23 sold yet"? You get a new boat every year like Jeff on Planet Nautique?

ironj32 01-14-2014 9:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottb7 (Post 1859640)
What do you mean "last year's 23 sold yet"? You get a new boat every year like Jeff on Planet Nautique?

For the last couple years, yep it's been an annual thing.

illini88 - I haven't sold it yet. I will keep it posted as a private sale for the next few weeks. If I don't move it, it'll end up being traded in at the end of the month. I'll probably drop the price a tad, again, if anyone is looking for pretty darn good deal :D I love the color scheme on it, and have been tempted to do the same for 2014, but the wife is thinking we should replace the white with a really dark grey.

Nordicron 01-14-2014 9:19 AM

Yes here we go again, MC guys trying to convince themselves.

Compared to a stock G yes a stock x25 wake is tiny. What's so hard to understand? And just for the record there ain't nothing real special about a stock x-25 wake. Yeah it's nice and pops you ok, kinda like the stock wake on a MXZ, Xstar, San 210, supra and even a moomba does. But nothing like a G! It's not even close.


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BoarderBlasiman 01-14-2014 9:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froggy (Post 1859119)
I know I am going to regret posting this but I cant just let it go. You must have a very special 210 a definite first for me . I wasn't aware they offered a 450 hp on a 210 in 2012 ? If you payed 107K for a 2012 210 I think you need a different dealer. You can buy a 2014 for less than that. The depreciation on all wakeboats is always highest in the first years but 47k in two years is unheard of. Its common knowledge that Nautique holds its value better than most other brands. Until now I have never heard anyone complain about Nautique resale . You imply depreciation is the reason you are switching brands. Using your numbers you have a 2012 210 SANTE that's only worth 60K now? That would be a great deal for someone .The X25 is not in the same class as a G21 the 230 would be a better match up. IMO if cost if not a factor the best wakeboat /wakesurf boat money can buy today is the G series with NSS. Furthermore anyone that goes to WW as a reference to buying a new boat is just asking for trouble. Go out and test drive them all and buy the one you like best.

I agree 100% you have to test drive them all. I think there is some confusion on what Nautiques resell for. If you sell the boat your self your going to see the awesome retail value. If your simply trading your boat into the dealer then you are not going to see the amazing resale value of your Nautique or any boat for that matter.

scottb7 01-14-2014 9:24 AM

And you realize the next question - albeit impolite is:

Do you work hard and fund it entirely yourself?

Or

Get some help from Nautique (or a Nautique dealer) - like Jeff - and are therefore biased.

JetRanger 01-14-2014 9:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordicron (Post 1859657)
Yes here we go again, MC guys trying to convince themselves.

Compared to a stock G yes a stock x25 wake is tiny. What's so hard to understand? And just for the record there ain't nothing real special about a stock x-25 wake. Yeah it's nice and pops you ok, kinda like the stock wake on a MXZ, Xstar, San 210, supra and even a moomba does. But nothing like a G! It's not even close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is this MHunter back from a previous life? We know you hate MC because way back in the day some guy with a Star stole your girlfriend named Butt Hurt then ran over your dog named Envy. Your overly aggressive reply and immediately defensive actions lead me to believe you are speaking with emotion and not using your brain. The Op cares about the whole package my gregarious friend, he wants a huge wake, comfortable seats, a killer stereo, and a well-built boat with some #SWAG so he can get some music made from his skin flute.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/15/8usuqagu.jpg

If he wanted a imitator and not an innovator he'd buy a G, which is not in one way better than a X25 except a marginally better stock wake which is due to the fact that the boat weighs about 1K more. That's why a MC stands for "Mackin' Chicks" and the G is just another lame Super Aaiiiirrr Annntique!

Nordicron 01-14-2014 9:44 AM

Wrong Jet. No one has ever stole a Gf of mine nor do I hate MC.

And claiming to be in med school I'd think you knew how to add? Reason the stock G blows away a stock x25 isn't because of 1000lbs it's more like 3000lbs when weighted my man. I'd also suggest it's got something to do with the fact that Nautique designed it to be a wake boat first and not some intracoastal fishing skiff like the other company's boat.


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ironj32 01-14-2014 9:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottb7 (Post 1859659)
And you realize the next question - albeit impolite is:

Do you work hard and fund it entirely yourself?

Or

Get some help from Nautique - like Jeff, and is therefore biased.

I have no idea what Jeff's deal is like, so am not able to speak to that. No, I do not get help from Nautique, and am not biased to any company or boat, based on brand loyalty. You can sift through a lot of my comments over the years, and see that I try to keep everything as fact based as possible...giving props to other boats, dealers and companies. If it is a discussion on "what is better", you'll most times find me clearly stating that it is my personal preference.

I'm just a guy who loves to ride and promote the sport of wakeboarding. I work very hard for what I have, and make lots of sacrifices in other areas (some may say that my priorities are backwards, but to each his own).

Do I have a good relationship with my boat dealer? Yes. Do they help me finance it? No. Do I get a pretty good price? I think so (but I don't know what he sells to others for, so I could be getting screwed). Do they care whether I get a 210, 230, G23, G25 or G21...no. He actually was recommending that I move into a G21 next year, as he hadn't had the chance to experience it in person, and was under the impression it would be a bigger wake. He knows what I expect out of a wake, as he has ridden with me a few times, and after checking it out for himself, he confirmed that a G23 wake was still the one I'd like.

JetRanger 01-14-2014 10:04 AM

G21+NSS vs. X25+surf gen 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordicron (Post 1859666)
Wrong Jet. No one has ever stole a Gf of mine nor do I hate MC.

And claiming to be in med school I'd think you knew how to add? Reason the stock G blows away a stock x25 isn't because of 1000lbs it's more like 3000lbs when weighted my man. I'd also suggest it's got something to do with the fact that Nautique designed it to be a wake boat first and not some intracoastal fishing skiff like the other company's boat.


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The only thing that doesn't add up is your unprovoked personal attacks on my intellect. If Nautique would have put one iota of thought into their design and not made it a one trick pony, you can rake in the flesh like a tuna trawler instead of repel squid like a loser cruiser...

scottb7 01-14-2014 10:13 AM

Jay, thanks for sharing. I am just trying to figure out where people stand, and I am quite cynical.

That being said, if you ever get to Burnsville area you are welcome to join us.

Fixable 01-14-2014 10:18 AM

Everyone throw your boats away. Ron has come to remind us that you can't even ride those things anymore. They may as well be slalom boats, the wakes are SO small!!

Funny how nobody in our crew can throw a single trick behind our buddy's G23, that they couldn't also throw behind my old X25s, or our other buddies SAN230, or my XStar..... And I never had any bags in the X25. Ironically, I did add them in the XStar.

G23 wake- No doubt, it is huge. No doubt it is perfectly shaped. No doubt is an absolutely awesome wakeboat. However, if you are not pushing HIGH level pro riding, it is an absolute waste, to have that size wake. 99% of us can do just as much, with every other wakeboat on the market.

If the OP is at a very high skill level, like IronJ, then I can see him wanting the wake of the G. If he is like the other 99% of us, there will be no advantage to it.

You couldn't just come on here, and state facts about each boat, could you, Ron?? You just couldn't let it slide, without coming in and trashing yet another X25 thread. And even funnier, is that you were over on TT, asking for details because you were thinking about buying one. (In all actuality, you were just being a troll. You didn't hide that well....)


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