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-   -   Quagga Mussel question (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800766)

clotus 01-01-2014 5:07 PM

Quagga Mussel question
 
My local lake (Piru) just announced they officially have the Quagga mussel. I have done a lot of research regarding the mussels and know how to decontaminate the boat/ballast, but a question came up about the water in the engine block. The ranger said to fire up the boat dry for a second to flush the water out. This does not sound too great for the impeller. We only go to Piru and Colorado River (both have mussels now).

Question: Is there any concern about the mussels clogging up or messing up the engine if we do not flush it out after each use? How long can the mussels stay alive in the water in the engine? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

grant_west 01-01-2014 5:43 PM

Flushing out your motor in mostly for the lake but the byproduct is yes they can (but very unlikely) also grow in your block. Jet skis and smaller motors small outboards with smaller water passages are more prone to mussel dammage. And boats that are left in the water are also more prone. Hot water and letting your boat dry out are 2 things that can kill the mussels. Places like the inside if your motor that don't fully dry out are a perfect place for them to grow.

robertstone9 01-01-2014 5:55 PM

don't run your boat dry it won't get the water out of the block and you risk your impeller & over heating

Dmac420sj 01-01-2014 5:56 PM

I'm not sure but my common sense that the block would get to hot for them to survive and reproduce. It's only like 130 degree water to kill them

shawndoggy 01-01-2014 5:58 PM

If that won't work to winterize I don't see how it would work for mussels.

wakebrdr94 01-01-2014 11:44 PM

I HAVE NOT DONE THIS, but a ranger at the checkpoint said if you can flush with hot water, or some bleach/water mixture, it would kill them if any were in the motor. IF this is true, you could use a hook up like the one that comes with salt away,

clubjoe 01-02-2014 8:09 AM

x2 ^^

I know bleach kills sea reef organisms, so it makes sense that it should kill freshwater organisms too... Dunno about the affects on boat parts, but I can't think of anything that would be hurt by limited/diluted exposure.

Bleach breaks down fairly quickly too I believe.

Dmac420sj 01-02-2014 8:29 AM

Bleach through your engine! I dunno bout that.

timmyb 01-02-2014 6:02 PM

I'm just curious how they would grow in your engine block since that water would be hot when you pull the boat which should have killed them.

Dmac420sj 01-02-2014 7:19 PM

They wouldn't.

fman 01-02-2014 9:52 PM

3 Attachment(s)
According to different articles I have read, the Quagga Mussel will not survive in temperatures that exceed 130 degrees. They can survive in 130 degree temps for up to 10 days out of the water (in a ballast tank/bag). I would think running your engine would kill them off with 160+ degree temps.

I am assuming they have still not thought of a plan to kill these pests off? The pictures are pretty disturbing of what they can do to a marina and shoreline.

Ewok01 01-03-2014 8:09 AM

I'm just thinking out loud here but the water flowing through the engine is cool from the lake in order to cool down the engine. When the thermostat opens I don't know if all the water running through the engine would get above the muscle kill threshold. I also don't think bleach is a good idea for the impeller and other rubber hose bits, I would think it would make those parts break down much quicker, especially with continuous flushes.

If I was concerned about muscle growth I would probably just drain the block if I was going to be out of the water more than a week. How fine are the zebra muscle larva? Would a sea strainer collect most of the critters or are they too small to be trapped in a screen?

RideGull 01-03-2014 8:30 AM

Used to work for the MN DNR doing boat decontaminations for zebra mussles and milfoil. Run 130-160 degree water through your engine using a fake-a-lake for a few minutes. No need for bleach or anything besides hot water. This is to clean out your intake/impeller/water strainer/heat exchange. Ballast bags/pumps should be filled up and emptied twice. Make sure to check what pumps you have, some brands say to not go over 140 degrees.

I wouldn't worry about mussels growning inside your engine or clogging your intake unless your boat is left sitting in the water year round.

Zebra muscle larva starts out at nearly microscopic Which is why it's important to cover every inch of your hull and trailer (soak the trailer bunks to get between the bunks and boat) with 150+ degree water using low pressure. A pressure washer on high will lose a ton of heat from the nozzle to the hull so keep that in mind.

Everyone has different opinion about letting your boat dry. I say 5 days would kill larvae once comlpetely dry. Trailer bunks probably take longer to dry out. Obviously your engine and ballast are never completely dry which is why hot water is so important.

clotus 01-03-2014 11:07 AM

So if I am reading this correctly I should not have to worry about the mussels clogging up anything in my engine. The concern is decontamination to avoid spreading. Is this correct?

cjh1669 01-03-2014 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RideGull (Post 1857758)
Used to work for the MN DNR doing boat decontaminations for zebra mussles and milfoil. Run 130-160 degree water through your engine using a fake-a-lake for a few minutes. No need for bleach or anything besides hot water. This is to clean out your intake/impeller/water strainer/heat exchange. Ballast bags/pumps should be filled up and emptied twice. Make sure to check what pumps you have, some brands say to not go over 140 degrees.

I wouldn't worry about mussels growning inside your engine or clogging your intake unless your boat is left sitting in the water year round.

Zebra muscle larva starts out at nearly microscopic Which is why it's important to cover every inch of your hull and trailer (soak the trailer bunks to get between the bunks and boat) with 150+ degree water using low pressure. A pressure washer on high will lose a ton of heat from the nozzle to the hull so keep that in mind.

Everyone has different opinion about letting your boat dry. I say 5 days would kill larvae once comlpetely dry. Trailer bunks probably take longer to dry out. Obviously your engine and ballast are never completely dry which is why hot water is so important.

Our lake just instituted a 35 day quarantine because they misread a study that said the larva can survive for 27 days..........

RideGull 01-03-2014 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1857788)
Our lake just instituted a 35 day quarantine because they misread a study that said the larva can survive for 27 days..........

That's strange. Any link to that study or info on why they made that rule?
Here in MN, there's a law where you can't transport a boat lift to a new lake unless it has sat out of water for 21 days. Depending on the lake, some lifts will be entirely covered in adult mussels. 21 days dry will ensure that they are dead. Usually die within 5.
I don't see how larvae can survive out of water for a month.

cjh1669 01-03-2014 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RideGull (Post 1857791)
That's strange. Any link to that study or info on why they made that rule?
Here in MN, there's a law where you can't transport a boat lift to a new lake unless it has sat out of water for 21 days. Depending on the lake, some lifts will be entirely covered in adult mussels. 21 days dry will ensure that they are dead. Usually die within 5.
I don't see how larvae can survive out of water for a month.

http://www.reabic.net/journals/mbi/2..._Choi_etal.pdf
It even states the recommended quarantine days in the study, but our lake skipped that part.....

RideGull 01-03-2014 1:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1857796)
http://www.reabic.net/journals/mbi/2..._Choi_etal.pdf
It even states the recommended quarantine days in the study, but our lake skipped that part.....

They are referring to the residual water that remains in bilge/ballast/water strainer areas right? I meant in an area that is completely dry, they will die within a few days.
I could definitely see the larvae living for a month in that small amount of water that your bilge pump doesn't get.

Now on the other hand, I wouldn't have a problem with a 35 day rule. That would help keep the people who don't care about jumping lakes moving AIS around and ruining our lakes and property values.

bftskir 01-03-2014 2:14 PM

Yes this is about trying to stop them from infesting uninfested waters.

timmyb 01-03-2014 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1857788)
Our lake just instituted a 35 day quarantine because they misread a study that said the larva can survive for 27 days..........

...and that lake is only open 5 months out of the year. If you pull your boat and go somewhere else in June/July, you just missed out on 5 weeks of prime boating season! :(

wakebrdr94 01-03-2014 3:28 PM

well, how do you get water to the temps you need to kill them? I do not believe the motor heats up the water to those temps. my spa at 110 feels hotter than the water coming out of my engine.

JCat 01-03-2014 3:59 PM

Remember the water coming out of the engine through the exhaust ports is mixed with fresh water sprayed into the exhaust manifolds. Temp inside the engine block will remain at the operating temperature set by the thermostat.

RideGull 01-04-2014 5:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakebrdr94 (Post 1857840)
well, how do you get water to the temps you need to kill them? I do not believe the motor heats up the water to those temps. my spa at 110 feels hotter than the water coming out of my engine.

It's difficult to do this at home since it takes a gas powered water heater to get it up to temp. If invasive species are in your state, your DNR or another volunteer organization might have a machine set up for this to help species from spreading.
Sometimes those RV/Boat/Truck washes that have pressure washers in them will allow you to turn the temp up.
If there's no way to get 140+, bleaching is probably the next best option. Just make sure it's disposed of in a proper place and not back into a lake or stream.
That or pressure wash/hose down, and thouroughly dry with fans.

SangerTom 01-04-2014 6:09 PM

Lake Castaic has gone to the "n"th degree (its all eventually drinking water for LA as I think Piru is for Venturay County. You must be totally dry. If your sacs have any water in them - no go. A DROP of water in the bilge no go. If you tell them you've come from any lake that is infected its a 30 day quarantine.

I give mine a good wash and dry out the bilge a couple of times (water seems to keep showing up). The fat sac in the center locker is plumbed in but my son (McGyver Junior) figured out that if we use a wet vac and place the hose on the outlet side of the sac on the side of the boat and seal it with earthquake wax (yes you non-californians there is such a thing) you can actually suck any residual water out.

JetRanger 01-04-2014 6:15 PM

I heard mussels avoid Tige boats therefore are safe for this type of application.

clotus 01-10-2014 3:38 PM

I do the same thing to get my front sac empty. Works very well.

The main question I am trying to get answered is will there be any damage sucking up larva into the engine block and letting it sit for a month? Will they grow/reproduce and cause damage to the engine or anywhere else?

I am less concerned about bringing it to another lake as I do not plan going to other lakes and we keep the boat very dry other than the engine block.

FunkyBunch 01-10-2014 3:48 PM

The chance they can grow in your motor is there yes.
IMO if your boat is out of water then there is not near enough water in you engine for them to grow for very long or to get very large. They start out microscopic and need an abundant amount of water to continue to grow. An adult filters up to a liter of water per day. So for one to grow to any size that is going to damage your motor the boat needs to have enough water for them to filter.
I have been dealing with them since I bought my boat and have not had any issues as long as my boat is not in the water. I left my boat in the water for a week once over a holiday and had to use a pressure washer to get them off the back of the boat. Even then they were barely visible looked something like over spray from a spray can.

Ansorge10 01-10-2014 3:52 PM

I know for a fact that salt water kills the fresh water mussels and any mussels that live in the salt water are killed by fresh water. I use my boat in the marina and out at havasu (infested lake) and up at nacimiento (not sure) and out at lake Powell (infested)
Whenever I have any questions I usually ask the rangers or someone at the boat shows because they usually have the most up to date research of the mussels.


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kx250frider617 01-11-2014 1:06 PM

It's funny. Last time I launched in a lake that does bilge inspections, they let me go without even taking a peak at the boat or trailer. I told them the boat the boat was last used in the ocean. I was being truthful and not hiding anything at all, I was also stressed about it and took a whole week to hot water, pressure wash the whole boat and dry every inch of it. I was just surprised that they let me launch so easily.

I really wouldn't worry about mussels in your engine though. The environment inside the block makes it hard for any living organism to thrive. No sunlights/ UV rays, extreme heat then cool changes, etc. If anything, just run some salt away or a cleaner through the fake-a-lake.

bftskir 01-11-2014 7:54 PM

How do you kill them in your ballast tanks or bags?

RideGull 01-17-2014 5:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bftskir (Post 1859177)
How do you kill them in your ballast tanks or bags?

If you have soft bags, probably easiest to remove them and use the hottest water you can get your hands on to rinse them out multiple times.
Some people use bleach. I'm not really a fan, but it works.

Hard tanks get a little trickier. Hot water and a fake-a-lake attached to your ballast intake on the bottom of your boat is best. Fill and empty a couple times.

bftskir 01-17-2014 10:04 AM

How many people actually do that?

bftskir 01-17-2014 10:06 AM

And how do get those tanks and bags completely dry inside???

RideGull 01-18-2014 5:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bftskir (Post 1860392)
How many people actually do that?

Probably not many. Decontaminating a wake boat properly is a huge pain. But in MN, it's the law.
It's nearly impossible to get ballast tanks completely dry which is why it's so important to rinse them out multiple times.

Between 5 fat sacs, 3 hard tanks, cleaning bilge, running the engine, and spraying down the trailer, it took me over an hour to do a proper decontamination after my boat was in a lake with eurasian milfoil and zebra mussels.

Dmac420sj 01-18-2014 8:20 AM

You just run 130 degree water through them they don't have to be dry.

bftskir 01-18-2014 2:28 PM

Wonder how long it will take to infest all the lakes in CA...between bass fishermens live wells, wakeboard and surf boat ballast they are going to spread faster and faster.

SuperSacR 01-30-2014 1:03 PM

There is a new system that has just been developed by Wake WorX in a partnership with the WSIA (Water Sports Manufacturers Association) and its member companies and the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency and Western Regional Panel. It has just completed testing in Lake Mead and has proven effective at keeping mussel larvae as well as other Aquatic Invasive Species out of ballast tanks, live-wells and bait-wells, thus eliminating the need to de-contaminate those tanks. This system will be formally presented at the WSIA "Summit in the Snow" at the end of February. This system will be save your time and your money by by-passing the need to decontaminate your tanks at all.
There is also a unit that will prevent contaminated bilge water from being discharged by your bilge pump. This will not eliminate the need to de-contaminate your bilge but will give a greatly increased level of protection.
Keep an eye on the WSIA web-site to learn more.

SuperSacR 01-30-2014 1:27 PM

Was supposed to say the "Water Sports Industry Association": www.wsia.net

shawndoggy 01-30-2014 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSacR (Post 1862680)
There is a new system that has just been developed by Wake WorX in a partnership with the WSIA (Water Sports Manufacturers Association) and its member companies and the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency and Western Regional Panel. It has just completed testing in Lake Mead and has proven effective at keeping mussel larvae as well as other Aquatic Invasive Species out of ballast tanks, live-wells and bait-wells, thus eliminating the need to de-contaminate those tanks. This system will be formally presented at the WSIA "Summit in the Snow" at the end of February. This system will be save your time and your money by by-passing the need to decontaminate your tanks at all.
There is also a unit that will prevent contaminated bilge water from being discharged by your bilge pump. This will not eliminate the need to de-contaminate your bilge but will give a greatly increased level of protection.
Keep an eye on the WSIA web-site to learn more.

this is a great idea. If the system has TRPA approval, I'll bet you'd sell a ton of them.

SuperSacR 03-03-2014 10:40 AM

The Mussel Mast'R system has been approved by the TRPA! Check out the press Release on Wake World, Wakeboarding.com, TRPA.Org etc.

shawndoggy 03-03-2014 12:17 PM

Do you have any actual info on the system?

brhanley 03-03-2014 12:18 PM

Scott - you should approach the Town of Truckee too. They just passed an AIS ordinance for Donner. That said, I have a great system for preventing Quaggas at Tahoe/Donner/Etc. that has worked for years. It's called low calcium levels...quaggas can't grow here even if you dumped them in the water hand over fist.

RideGull 03-04-2014 5:30 AM

http://www.minnehahacreek.org/projec...zequanox-study

Testing on Lake Minnetonka, MN starts this spring

SuperSacR 03-04-2014 12:44 PM

The Mussel Mast'R system we are using is an in-line filter that prevents invasive species from getting into the ballast tanks. This prevents the need to kill our de-contaminate them in the tanks. It is a simple, efficient and affordable system that is easily retro-fittable on older boats. It is a passive system so the owner/operator of the boat doesn't need to do anything except change the filter elements twice a year.
We are working with the Western States Panel and the TRPA to have boats with this system installed be allowed to by-pass any ballast tank decontamination, saving time and money for the boat owner and for the states.
It is expected to be offered by all the major wakeboard boat builders (members of the WSIA) as an option for 2015MY.
More info will be available soon.
Thanks for the interest !

shawndoggy 03-04-2014 2:15 PM

will the system work with gravity fed ballast?

SuperSacR 03-05-2014 9:15 AM

No it will not work with Pure Vert type systems, ballast that fills by opening a valve and letting water flood the tanks cannot be filtered in this way.


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