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-   -   engine - fuel issues?? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=797579)

jhartt3 04-07-2013 3:13 PM

engine - fuel issues??
 
started up the boat this year on land to make sure it would run... didnt run it long. Then went to drop it in and it ran for 5 seconds and stopped... engine will crank until battery dies ... but wont startup... assuming fuel supply issue... any easy fix or cleanout or should i just take it to the shop

jhartt3 04-07-2013 3:13 PM

its a PCM pro boss GT-40

rallyart 04-07-2013 3:43 PM

Fuel filter / water separator replacement springs to mind. You might have water in the carb now which would need to be drained. If your fuel pump is electric you can run it with the line going to a jerry can and see if you've got water or bad fel coming out of the tank.
If it was water it would start to chug and then stop. If it was ignition it might run rough or it might just stop running as if you'c turned off the ignition. It's hard to tell but check the fuel system first.

Dmac420sj 04-07-2013 3:48 PM

Did you stabilize the fuel for winter?check fuel filter for garbage. Is it carbureted of efi?

jhartt3 04-07-2013 3:57 PM

i just had a buddy come check the pressure... fuel pressure checked out ok ... spark plugs are sparking... it is EFI... i did fill up the tank and put stabil in it this winter before putting it in a climate controlled cave. we are thinking bad gas at this point. (hoping) Anyone know any easy way to get gas out of there so i can get it tested ... or some additive i could drop in to fix it if it was bad gas... only a 25 gallon tank

h20king 04-07-2013 4:17 PM

Hate to ask but is the safety lanyard connected all the way ??

jhartt3 04-07-2013 4:19 PM

I don't have a safety lanyard

h20king 04-07-2013 4:34 PM

where did you check pressure at the pump or at the rail?? I have never heard of treated gas losing its volatility during the off season. I have stored mine the same way for many years with no problems. If you have spark and fuel pressure I would start by checking for water in the fuel system. If you have a water fuel separator filter start by removing and emptying it into a clear container. Water is heavier than fuel and will settle on the bottom and should be easy to see. If you find water refill the filter with fresh fuel install and try to start it again.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhartt3 (Post 1815567)
its a PCM pro boss GT-40

Ahhh yes the PCM GT-40, are you near the boat? Is it the Protec ignition?
Its not a fuel issue.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 4:44 PM

I dont know what the ignition is ... iTs a hydrodyne Grand Sport. And yes i'm right next to the boat

jhartt3 04-07-2013 4:46 PM

I dumped a thing of heet in it a few minutes ago ... gonna try to start it in about an hour if the rain quits... but wakedirt has may attention if it may be something else

jhartt3 04-07-2013 4:50 PM

boat is a 1995 EFI PCM Proboss GT-40

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 4:56 PM

Can you look at the ignition, THe boat probably wont have a classic "distributor cap" All the spark plug wires end up connecting to a panel on the back of the engine. It would say Pro Tec on it.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 4:58 PM

what do i do if thats it?

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 4:58 PM

If you could upload a pic, I can help you do some diagnostics that I had to go through. I had a 94 Centurion Falcon V drive with the same motor.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:03 PM

all the spark plugs connect to what appears to be a distributor that says motorcraft on it

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:08 PM

i did just install perfect pass dont know if that changes any of this... i wouldnt think it should... it did startup and run for 5 seconds.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:11 PM

I would not write off it being a fuel issue, but with that motor, with a Pro Tec, you have a tickin time bomb of an ignition system, that is very very hard to diag. The reason its so hard is that it can fail in different ways, different times, and its very inconsitant. <those characteristics usually mean "electrical" and not fuel.
-But you always start with checking to see if you have proper fuel supply.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:15 PM

I didnt see anything on it that says protec the back says Ford and the place the spark plugs run says motorcraft...

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:16 PM

I'll throw some pics up when i go back out to try and start it in 10 mins... if it doesnt startup... getting pretty close to out of battery power i suspect tho

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:20 PM

-You may have popped an ignition fuse, check your harness for an ign fuse.
-There also should be a breaker "button" somewehere on the block it should be up towards where your wires are on the motor, you may have to search around for it for a bit.
-Are you 100% you have the PP hooked up 100% correct?

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:22 PM

Do you own a test light?

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:24 PM

i'm pretty positive. its a pretty simple install... just some tight spaces to work with... i turned it on PP powered up just fine ... the mechanical is really easy... so i dont know where the mistake could be with that... i'll look around for that if this heat didnt do the trick... and take picture too... brb.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:28 PM

if i had an ignition fuse blown i wouldnt be seeing sparks on my plugs correct? anyways... just went to try to start it... didnt start battery died before the good gas could probably get pumped up there anyways.. gonna charge the battery and give it a look tomorrow... its starting to rain

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:30 PM

Ok cool, of it doesent start dont keep turning and turning on the starter. And take a pic of the wiring of the motor up close.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:30 PM

i dont know what a test light is ... so i dont think i have one.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:32 PM

Yes you wouldnt have spark, but the starter can keep turning and turing, in you PP install, where did you tie into the ign/purple wire?

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:35 PM

i tied it in on the back of the RPM meter it was the easiest to get to so all wires are terminated there. for power and for the RPM signals.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 5:38 PM

Be sure that battery is nice and charged too, is it a good battery?

jhartt3 04-07-2013 5:41 PM

its a good a battery i've charged it up full 2x now... and it lasts thru more than a enough cranks... my charger tells me if its bad

jhartt3 04-07-2013 6:02 PM

engine could be flooded too at this point... gonna let it sit tonight in the rain and charge the battery... gonna try a bump test tomorrow morning again see if it is fixed at all

wakebordr11 04-07-2013 6:15 PM

You've wasted your battery twice trying to start the boat? It isnt good to continuously crank an engine over that won't start. Check the fuel filter.

simplej 04-07-2013 6:59 PM

Is it a traditional ignition with points? You may want to start there... We had alot of trouble with the ignition in our old Bu, Same issue in fact and got worse after it got warm

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplej (Post 1815610)
Is it a traditional ignition with points? You may want to start there... We had alot of trouble with the ignition in our old Bu, Same issue in fact and got worse after it got warm

This is what it sounds like to me, only crappy thing is starting at the ign first can be spendy, hopefully its something simple first. May be a fuse or a breaker, could be fuel, could be ign.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 7:23 PM

i'm still confused as to how it could be a fuse or breaker when i get sparks at the plugs... if the ignition system was failed at some point my plugs wouldnt spark ... correct... i dont know alot about this i really am grateful for the help let me know if this logic is incorrect? i'm an electrical engineer and understand circuits and control systems... but when it comes to mechanical parts of engines i lose knowledge there... but all the circuits i've seen show that if it was an upstream fuse or breaker problem i wouldnt get sparks.

h20king 04-07-2013 7:28 PM

Un screw the fuel cell on the right front of the engine empty out the fuel and check for water.
Once you have verified one way or the other we can go from there

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 8:01 PM

I didnt see that you actually tested for spark. Since you have, then perhaps the engine is getting spark to the plugs, but when under al oad, or once the ign heats up it is failing. Also could still be fuel. I would be sure you have a good fuel supply first.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 8:05 PM

The newer PCMs have a fuse in the engine compartment on the wire harness. It dispalys same results, engine turns, but no go. Its beginning to look like fuel.

jhartt3 04-07-2013 8:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h20king (Post 1815615)
Un screw the fuel cell on the right front of the engine empty out the fuel and check for water.
Once you have verified one way or the other we can go from there

This is where my electricalness comes in and need a bit more description here. I can do this.. but i dont really know what this means.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhartt3 (Post 1815627)
This is where my electricalness comes in and need a bit more description here. I can do this.. but i dont really know what this means.

There is a canister looking thing (looks like a long oil filter) that has a screw on the bottom. Fuel is lighter than water, you take a small sample out, maybe 2 shot glasses worth in a clear class container and switl it, look for a separation in the fuel and see if there is a liquid at the bottom, that would be water. Not good in a fuel system.

WakeDirt 04-07-2013 8:22 PM

If there isnt a screw or petcock on the bottom the canister, you'll have to remove it like H20 said. Many boats can be different.

04-07-2013 8:35 PM

One quick test will tell you whether its a fuel or ignition problem. Take the air cleaner off, open up your butterflys, and spray some starting fluid down the intake manifold, close the butterflys and go turn the motor over. If it starts, its a fuel problem, if it doesn't, its an ignition problem. This will get you pointed in the right direction.

simplej 04-07-2013 8:40 PM

also point spacing/rotor can screw things up and youd still get a spark but your ignition timing could off by miles. maybe the voltage is low but youre still getting a spark?

jhartt3 04-11-2013 6:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
alright so i think this is my fuel filter. How do i remove/replace it?

jhartt3 04-11-2013 6:39 PM

My boat doesnt have the fuel cell those didnt come out til 96... this is a 95 ... so i think thats the oil filter... the oil pump is right above it i took a picture of that and found it online but i cant find this filter anywhere.. i assume its b/c its just an insert???

wakedaveup 04-12-2013 5:51 AM

I feel like if you had a fuel issue it would still fire up it would just pop and sound horrible while running, but it would atleast fire up. If the engine is cranking, but won't turn over at all, it could be your fuel pump gone bad.

jhartt3 04-12-2013 6:08 AM

I have fuel pressure at the rail.

jagermeister 04-12-2013 6:16 AM

Any Luck?... To determine if it's a fuel or an ignition issue, pull the spark arrestor off the throttle body and spray some starter fluid or WD-40 in it as you turn it.. If it fires up, it's an EFI problem.. I have a 96, 210 with that exact GT40 EFI here at the shop.. That engine has a "limp mode" system in it.. Temp > 210 or oil pressure <5 it will surge over 2500 rpm.. Good Luck..

jhartt3 04-12-2013 6:33 AM

so are you basically saying there is no chance that this is just water in the gas causing it not to fire... and that it maybe my EFI system... so even if i replace my fuel filter and run the water out of the lines it still wont start?

jagermeister 04-12-2013 7:21 AM

I seriously doubt it.. You would have to have a ton of water in the tank like you left the cap off in a torrential rain storm.. If it did have h2o in it, it would sputter and spit at you.. I'll bet the injectors aren't getting the pulse from the ECU.. Also if you ran it in the driveway without water hooked up for the first time after a winter set, you probably fried the super dry impeller.. Try the starter fluid...

jhartt3 04-12-2013 3:47 PM

thanks for all the help. Just started it up with out doing anything ... ran rough for a little bit then evened out... i think it must have been water in the bottom of the tank .... heet did its job and now it runs strong once the water worked its way out of the lines.

wakebordr11 04-12-2013 6:56 PM

Might've been water, or you vapor locked it somehow...

Losmarios 04-23-2013 6:39 PM

Having issues on my 2003 Sanger. Thought it was fuel, so I emptied the tank and changed the filter. Still running rough(backfiring,stalling)! Friend check the fuel pressure and it was low! What now?

jhartt3 04-24-2013 6:32 AM

bad fuel pump would be my first guess if you have low fuel pressure ... where did he check the pressure?

Losmarios 04-24-2013 3:07 PM

He checked the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. He seems to think its a lower fuel pump issue.


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