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-   -   x25 wake with big issues... (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796408)

simplej 12-12-2012 6:10 PM

x25 wake with big issues...
 
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Okay, so. I have ridden behind 3 different x25's a 2011 twice, a 2012 and 2010 countless times. until a neighbor got a 2012 when ever i read a thread about the x25 stock wake being "amazing" and "the best" i scoffed, the 2010 which i have logged about 300 hours on (its a close friend's the boat almost never leave the dock without me) has a flat wake. to be honest, its terrible until you slam it. Hopped out behind the 2012 and thought wow this is amazing, the wake is steep and poppy with good transition. We noticed a major difference that is consistent from the photo's of x25's posted around and online along with my neighbors. The 2010, the boat in question, has its center trim tab mount flush with the running surface of the hull (i dont have pics, its in storage) while the 2012's ive seen have the trim tab mounted about an inch- 2 inches higher so they are not flush with the bottom of the hull. i believe the indmar is heavier than the ilmor, and the 2010 has a little bit more ballast (not sure) but that would only make the wake bigger. is the trim tab the culprit? any similar experiences? heres the difference: both boats at 22mph with stock ballast, and a few passengers. HELP

simplej 12-12-2012 6:28 PM

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this is another example.

SimonSez 12-12-2012 7:12 PM

Yeah something is up.

ralph 12-12-2012 7:58 PM

Yes trim tab IMO. Can you remove the actuator and pull the plate right up and out of the way as a test?

ralph 12-12-2012 8:00 PM

You can see the plate is totally knocking the rooster tail down in the flat picks and not in the jackin pics

simplej 12-12-2012 8:49 PM

We thought of this as we had done the same with the surf tabs. The boat is in storage now so it'll have to wait until may. The reason we did not do this is 1. Because it was near end of season when we realized and 2. There's no easy place to attach some wire ties and secure the center tab in a way up position, especially with exhaust water blasting it

ralph 12-13-2012 12:00 AM

i guess if the actuator is removed it doesn't matter if the plate sits on the water, it won't have much affect if it can move up and down freely

migs 12-13-2012 8:13 AM

thats a serious problem...

simplej 12-13-2012 4:32 PM

We didn't want to damage anything by having the tab flap freely. QC dropped ball on this issue, and it's above and beyond the most important one...

miljack 12-15-2012 5:37 AM

'10 was the first year for that hull, correct? Maybe the development team learned after the first model year about the tab placement.
How high can the actuator pull up the tab? I wouldn't worry about the exhaust/water hitting it for one run. Another way is to pull the hinge pin and tie the actuator up to the platform.
One thing I've heard about the Ilmor vs. Indmar weight is the Ilmor is heavier. This is from a skiing buddy who knows alot about the new MC's and their setups for the course.

austin 12-15-2012 8:50 AM

I don't have any personal experience with the x25, so I'm just passing on rumors. I've heard mostly good things about the 2012 x25 wake, but I've heard some pretty negative things about the several model years before that. So I'm thinking this issue may not just be a QC issue for this one single boat. It may be a common design flaw issue with many or even all boats of that model year. I'm just passing on internet rumors though, so take it with a grain of salt. One person posting multiple times on the internet can make one person's issue seem common.

simplej 12-15-2012 9:00 AM

Jack, no the hull isnt new, its the CSX 220 hull and has been around for years. we did this with the surf tabs there is hardly anywhere to tie the actuator to, but ill have to give it a try when it goes back in unless my buddy just gets the tab pulled over the winter. even if the ilmor is in fact heavier the difference is not going be what i've shown above, at least not on its own

austin, this is the first i've heard of anything but i am not surprised...

Nordicron 12-16-2012 8:28 AM

It could very well be the tab placement but I've also heard from a MC dealer that MC slightly changed the amount of hook in the hull with the 2012. It certainly wouldnt take very much at all for that tab to negatively effect the wake. I know with the Nautique hydro gate the gate only had about 1/4" movement beneath the hill and it noticeably effects the wake and plane time. He could be blowing smoke but that's what he said...

kskonn 12-19-2012 8:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordicron (Post 1798637)
It could very well be the tab placement but I've also heard from a MC dealer that MC slightly changed the amount of hook in the hull with the 2012. It certainly wouldnt take very much at all for that tab to negatively effect the wake. I know with the Nautique hydro gate the gate only had about 1/4" movement beneath the hill and it noticeably effects the wake and plane time. He could be blowing smoke but that's what he said...

I heard the same thing. However I have been behind an older CSX and a 10 X25 that both had great stock wakes.

I can tell you as someone with a wakeplate that if I put mine down 5% where it is touching the water the wake is noticeably flatter.

simplej 12-19-2012 9:11 AM

yes exactly, its amazing the amount of change the trim tabs have on the wake. This has got to be the reason, we'll try to talk to the dealer and get moved under warranty. its in a position where its looks as if its engaged to about 20-30% all the time. 100% down bury's the nose, it took until late this season to realize because we had not been out behind another x25, we spent 2 years behind this without any realization

Gotmods 12-19-2012 10:08 AM

I've been following this and have to say it is somewhat of an amazing discovery. MC should step up on a sweet deal for a '13 :)

simplej 12-19-2012 10:40 AM

between this and many other issues they really should...
but doubtful it really just needs to be fixed... I heard a story that happening to a malibu owner, but he had to sue his way to get it

kskonn 12-19-2012 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplej (Post 1799110)
yes exactly, its amazing the amount of change the trim tabs have on the wake. This has got to be the reason, we'll try to talk to the dealer and get moved under warranty. its in a position where its looks as if its engaged to about 20-30% all the time. 100% down bury's the nose, it took until late this season to realize because we had not been out behind another x25, we spent 2 years behind this without any realization

Wow- if it is that much in the water it is definitely the problem. 20-30% has a huge effect on the wake.

I could be wrong but aren't the wake plates and surf tabs typically installed by the dealer before delivery, just like the towers etc...?

simplej 12-19-2012 11:09 AM

Not sure on the MC's as far as I know my boat came with the tab installed, but it's a tige so I have no idea. Yes again we were none the wiser until August of last year, an I just recently got my friends permission to post about the issue ( I try to be respectful lol). I really wish I had a picture of the transom

will5150 12-19-2012 12:38 PM

this looks like a trim tab setting issue- not a placement issue. The flat wake pics look like the tab is almost all the way down. Same with my Tige- I put it in "Slalom" mode and the wake goes away, buries the nose and creates a froth behind the boat. When set to 4+ the wake sets up great , the bow comes up and foamy wake disapears. Around the max setting, the bow will porpise a bit of we aren't weighted properly.

Depth of the lake makes a difference too- if you're in 6 feet of water, the wake won't set up like it will in 20 feet- it will be much flatter in shallow water ad you're not displacing as much.

simplej 12-19-2012 12:48 PM

that's 50-80 feet of water on the same lake. And the pics show trim tab in the all the way up position or 0% on the MC's

wakebordr11 12-19-2012 2:01 PM

^ Maybe the hydraulic ram was set at a different angle/wrong height/angle... So what you get is it doesn't pull the tab as high as the newer boat? or maybe the tab is mounted lower, creating a shearing drag on the water, whereas it doesn't matter how high you raise the flap, the mounting bracket drags... Seems like all of this discussion someone would take some pictures and measurements of the actual tabs themselves to figure out the problem to figure out if there is a difference so you can either blame mastercraft or not...

simplej 12-19-2012 2:26 PM

I can tell you with assurance that the 2012's I've seen have the trim tab physically mounted an inch or so higher than on this boat, you can see hull underneath the tab, this boat it's pushed all the way to the bottom... . Another user posted a pic in another thread

wakebordr11 12-19-2012 3:18 PM

Sounds logical to me. So what is there to discuss? Go get it fixed, its got to be remounted.

simplej 12-19-2012 3:58 PM

Not much more really, Just wanted to bounce some info around before my buddy's starts tearing stuff off the boat that will leave holes and to see if any one has any other wisdom/info

I guess he should've bought and MB :D

johnny_defacto 12-19-2012 4:04 PM

winter project..... pull all that crap off and weight it correctly and heavily.

I had a tige with taps and it was nice to be able to get on plane and play with the wake, but now that I dont have a boat with a trim tab I don't miss it at all.

Not sure if the taps and MC trim tab are similar in that they "wake shape"?? I know the SAN's and MB's and others are used solely to help plane so you can run heavier than you would without it (or to run it without the correct amount of bow weight). But you can wake shape a bit by changing ballast configurations and then you will have a super consistent wake to ride with one less variable (trim tab).

simplej 12-19-2012 4:18 PM

The tige taps is nice because I can tailor the wake shape quite nicely based on preferences or tricks I'm working on etc., but maybe that's justifications make for owning one

The MC doesn't need it for wake shape, but if you put an ounce of weight extra in it you need the trim tab, it's a bear to get to plane otherwise after this I can see where your appreciation comes from

kskonn 12-20-2012 2:00 PM

I don't use mine to get on plane, I have plenty of engine for that plus I keep balanced ballast front to back. However the big reason I put a wakeplate on my MC was when I was teaching kids to ski/board whatever. If I am running at 10 MPH with my 2 year old I can bring the nose down with the plate. I never use it when I am boarding with my buddies.

simplej 12-20-2012 7:13 PM

His boat has the MCX and when you add 2k over stock it need trim Out of the hole and out of corners

TheWoons 12-21-2012 9:14 AM

Put an OJ 5 blade on it and getting on plane won't be an issue at all. I have a spare one if your buddy wants one.


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