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-   -   Fiscal Cliff (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796344)

phatboypimp 12-05-2012 11:26 AM

Fiscal Cliff
 
PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HATE THREAD ABOUT POLITICS - we have other threads for that.

If you could simply choose ONE action the Government could take that would have the largest impact on the Fiscal Cliff - What would it be?

fly135 12-05-2012 11:48 AM

Go back in time to 2000 Florida and have them recount the votes in favor of Gore. We wouldn't have had the Bush tax cuts, the Medicare prescription plan, or the war in Iraq. Or go back in time to late 70's Carter and implement the stricter fuel standards for cars that he was espousing.

brettw 12-05-2012 12:02 PM

One action? We need a big impact. I'd say repeal the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts that affect the top 1 to 2% of earners.

Can I add more? Have capital gains and interest be included as regular income as far as getting taxed.

Next, defense spending has got to come down.

I'd love to see a change in how entitlement spending is done and clean that up, but that's sort of a whole other discussion.

psudy 12-05-2012 12:11 PM

Go back in time and take a photo of obama being born in Kenya. LOL.

shawndoggy 12-05-2012 12:15 PM

I sorta wonder why we shouldn't just step off of the fiscal curb. Taxes go up and spending goes down. Automatically. Isn't austerity what we want?

The argument I've heard for taxes first and spending cuts later is that when tax *rates* go up they don't cause an immediate economic shock (we won't be paying our 2013 taxes till April 2014), but that spending cuts are immediate. So increase taxes now, let the economy limp along (hopefully continuing to recover) then cut spending as economic growth stabilizes.

jeff_mn 12-05-2012 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1797213)
Go back in time to 2000 Florida and have them recount the votes in favor of Gore. We wouldn't have had the Bush tax cuts, the Medicare prescription plan, or the war in Iraq. Or go back in time to late 70's Carter and implement the stricter fuel standards for cars that he was espousing.

Making a lot of assumptions about what Gore would/would not have done there, slick.

TerryR 12-05-2012 1:06 PM

If i understand this right. 1.6 trillion in new taxes, 800 billion in new spending and congress gives up the right to set the debt limit.

on top of last years $1+ trillion additional debt.

Is everyone OK with this? Doesn't the debt/spending become unsustainable at some point?

jeff_mn 12-05-2012 1:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryR (Post 1797236)
If i understand this right. 1.6 trillion in new taxes, 800 billion in new spending and congress gives up the right to set the debt limit.

on top of last years $1+ trillion additional debt.

Is everyone OK with this? Doesn't the debt/spending become unsustainable at some point?

No

- Obama Sackriders

shawndoggy 12-05-2012 1:52 PM

can we at least agree that the payroll tax cut (a temporary stimulus measure) should be allowed to expire?

monkey_butt 12-05-2012 2:06 PM

Quote:

The argument I've heard for taxes first and spending cuts later is that when tax *rates* go up they don't cause an immediate economic shock (we won't be paying our 2013 taxes till April 2014),
It does have an immediate effect as the withholding will increase so the net pay will decrease but I agree we should let them expire and maybe remove the cap on social security tax at the same time (note: the social security withholding only got reduced for the employee but not for the employer portion - so businesses will not be affected by this change)

I don't think I'm making too many friends today on wakeworld by saying we should raise taxes :D

jason_ssr 12-05-2012 2:13 PM

The best thing that could happen is for it to completely collapse. It would be catastrophic, but really the best scenario for long-term success. Deficit spending cannot go on into infinity. We are so polarized that any effort to clean up the economy will be shot down by the other side simply because it was initiated by the opposition. This will not change until the entire thing fails. We all need one another, and each side's priorities are valuable to the other. We will not be brought together as centrists until libs are reminded where they get their food from, and cons are reminded where they get their sweaters. Alone, we will all starve or freeze. Until it actually fails, we will all continue to act as if it can't fail and act as if we don't need each other.

SimonSez 12-05-2012 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason_ssr (Post 1797251)
The best thing that could happen is for it to completely collapse. It would be catastrophic, but really the best scenario for long-term success. Deficit spending cannot go on into infinity. We are so polarized that any effort to clean up the economy will be shot down by the other side simply because it was initiated by the opposition. This will not change until the entire thing fails. We all need one another, and each side's priorities are valuable to the other. We will not be brought together as centrists until libs are reminded where they get their food from, and cons are reminded where they get their sweaters. Alone, we will all starve or freeze. Until it actually fails, we will all continue to act as if it can't fail and act as if we don't need each other.

Well said, social Darwinism at its finest. Machiavelli would be proud, let the market correct itself!

TerryR 12-05-2012 4:24 PM

It seems to me the real fiscal cliff is the point where we can't recover from the debt. This cliff only means about $200 a month for me. Even as a retired guy I can manage. but, the experts are predicting recession and 9% employment. for those of you who know more about this than me, are those numbers real?

phatboypimp 12-06-2012 9:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryR (Post 1797277)
It seems to me the real fiscal cliff is the point where we can't recover from the debt. This cliff only means about $200 a month for me. Even as a retired guy I can manage. but, the experts are predicting recession and 9% employment. for those of you who know more about this than me, are those numbers real?

Those are the same numbers I have seen - you pull that much money out of the economy and you will see an impact.

I am just frustrated by the ineptitude of our voted officials. These FAT CATS roll around in private planes, limos with uncontrolled/unsupervised budgets and then can't even get to a resolution about the most simple items.

I think that Warren Buffet had the best idea - we should pass a law that says anytime there is a deficit above 3% of GDP that all sitting members of congress can not be reelected. They will get to a solution.

I also don't understand how the government can continually tax the top wage earners. The top 10% of wage earners pay 71% of federal income tax but only generate 43% of all income. Talk about progressive.

three6ty 12-06-2012 9:32 AM

I dont think this will be the biggest but IMO by far the most impactful!
All of the Inmates in State and Federal Prisons will be required to work a 40 hour week in some sort of manufacturing position in the Facilities they are housed in. Corporations that haved moved their manufacturing outside the USA will have a chance to bid on cheap labor ( Inmates) here in the US. Thus reducing overhead, overseas shipping costs and the like. Have them makes Nike's shoes, Hurley shorts or whatever but put them to work and give them something to do with their days in prison. Prisons can charge the company similar or cheaper rates than overseas and have all the profit go back to pay for the cost of running the prisons ( now being paid by us taxpaers).

My other plan is also put anyone that is on welfare to work and have them be drug tested before they get each check. Again us Taxpayers are footing the bill here and like the plan above we can have these leeches that are able bodied and that are on welfare actually earn the money instead of sitting back doing nothing and collecting a check. If your physically unable to work then we will put you on an admin job answering phones or cold calling people when you can do it lying on your back if need be! Now Im not talking about any of the physically or mentally handicapped that are on some sort of assistance, im talking about the men and women out there collecting unemployment and welfare and living in free govt housing becasue they canearn more from welfare than they can from a job.
I hate freeloaders, and those who enable them!!!!!

steezyshots 12-06-2012 9:44 AM

Why avoid it? Let;'s burn this MFer down!

ord27 12-06-2012 9:44 AM

remove pelosi,reed and obama

steezyshots 12-06-2012 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ord27 (Post 1797393)
remove pelosi,reed and obama

Agreed!

three6ty 12-06-2012 10:16 AM

We will never turn anything around in this country if Crap like this is keeps being funded by taxpayers:

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capito...#axzz2E8sXEKDW

I was in downtown San Diego on Tuesday and saw 3 homeless men pushing 2 pushing shopping carts and one pushing a worn down bike in 3 different parts of downtown, and each one were taking on cell phones!!!!! I actually laughed out loud when I saw this!!

diamonddad 12-06-2012 10:59 AM

Perhaps the government should only spend what it takes in.

If they want/need to spend more than raise taxes for the short term or long term or don't spend it.

magicr 12-06-2012 11:15 AM

Quote:

Perhaps the government should only spend what it takes in.

If they want/need to spend more than raise taxes for the short term or long term or don't spend it.

Maybe George Bush should have taken that advice, rather than have two unfunded wars, two large tax breaks, and unfunded medicare prescription drug plan.

jeff_mn 12-06-2012 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkey_butt (Post 1797246)
It does have an immediate effect as the withholding will increase so the net pay will decrease but I agree we should let them expire and maybe remove the cap on social security tax at the same time (note: the social security withholding only got reduced for the employee but not for the employer portion - so businesses will not be affected by this change)

I don't think I'm making too many friends today on wakeworld by saying we should raise taxes :D

We dont have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

Just like at home with personal finances. If you cant manage your money at home - the solution is not a raise. the problem will simply follow. the solution is getting your spending in check.

shawndoggy 12-06-2012 11:26 AM

of course there's pretty good evidence that if we cut spending too much too fast, we also shoot ourselves in the foot by causing a recession, which in turn causes a drop in revenues, which in turn could make the deficit bigger.

As much as the kitchen table finance model is attractive, it's also ignorant to assume that what works at home translates to the government of the world's largest economy.

diamonddad 12-06-2012 12:00 PM

I call BS otherwise that argument would apply to the states who are not allowed to deficit spend (thank god!).

Can you imagine the mess we would be in if the states were able to form a massive debt and print money?

The federal government should be small and mostly about the military (protecting the USA). We are only in a dire situation such that we can not cut enough because we were allowed to spend too much year over year. If we lived within out means every year, then we would not be in this mess.

Besides, why not have the rule be that you spend next year what you took in last year and any more has to be voted in seperately item by item? This way, the idiot spenders of our children's money would have to own what they are doing every year.

shawndoggy 12-06-2012 12:52 PM

Well, DD, it sounds like going over the fiscal cliff is a good idea then, yes? Cut spending and increase revenues to close the gap.

TerryR 12-06-2012 12:56 PM

The proposed tax the rich plan only gerates $80 billion. We need a lot more than that to balance the budget.

Giving the President the ability to set the spending limit is ridiculous

wake77 12-06-2012 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ord27 (Post 1797393)
remove pelosi,reed and obama

But keep McConnell, Boehner, and Ryan who should be just as much to blame? Gotcha:rolleyes:

ifishok 12-06-2012 1:58 PM

Cancel Obama's vacation coming up this Christmas, it will cost American taxpayers over $4 million dollars. That's where I would start and work my way down though the Senate and House. Some people may say he deserves a vacation, but with all that's going on in the world, I think he needs to get to work and be a President.:confused:

johnny_defacto 12-06-2012 2:24 PM

%20 spending cut on all government programs across the board.

We do have a spending problem. We do have a revenue problem but the spending is kiling us. Raising taxes on everyone will temporarily spike the gov coughers, showing an increase of short term revenue. Long term revenue will decrease. If I have less money in my pocket, I will spend less money at your job on your products, which means your boss will have less money, which means he will pay you less money, then you will have less money, you will spend less money at my job buying my products, which will give me less money... and on and on...

shawndoggy 12-06-2012 2:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_defacto (Post 1797464)
%20 spending cut on all government programs across the board.

We do have a spending problem. We do have a revenue problem but the spending is kiling us. Raising taxes on everyone will temporarily spike the gov coughers, showing an increase of short term revenue. Long term revenue will decrease. If I have less money in my pocket, I will spend less money at your job on your products, which means your boss will have less money, which means he will pay you less money, then you will have less money, you will spend less money at my job buying my products, which will give me less money... and on and on...

A 20% across the board spending cut would cripple the economy.

Some very worthwhile reading on the issue of fiscal consolidation and its impacts on the economy here:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2012/wp12190.pdf

three6ty 12-06-2012 4:51 PM

I guess some prisons are already doing it .

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...for-nasa?lite=

westsidarider 12-06-2012 8:18 PM

I agree with the complete crash of everything. Matter of fact, it's coming. The human race has pushed things too far. There is no saving anything. There is no turning America around. Debating politics is useless. Evil has taken over and greed runs ramped amongst everyone. My only suggestion to the people is to make your peace with your maker. Our days are numbered

juniorhawk 12-07-2012 5:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westsidarider (Post 1797515)
I agree with the complete crash of everything. Matter of fact, it's coming. The human race has pushed things too far. There is no saving anything. There is no turning America around. Debating politics is useless. Evil has taken over and greed runs ramped amongst everyone. My only suggestion to the people is to make your peace with your maker. Our days are numbered

http://i.minus.com/ibiZdvxUefXzAA.gif

psudy 12-07-2012 11:57 AM

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...7-4a369489044a

stepintoliquid 12-07-2012 1:10 PM

Jason, you took this thread to the next level!!!

TerryR 12-07-2012 3:37 PM

Thanks Paul for sharing. It doesn't seem that extreme, considering the savings are about 70% of the yearly deficit.

The fiscal cliff sounds like a good start.


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