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-   -   V-Drive oil. ATF vs. SAE 30 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=795564)

Brendon444 09-17-2012 4:05 PM

V-Drive oil. ATF vs. SAE 30
 
Quick Question:
Sanger v215 Black Scorpian with Walter V-drive.

Took my boat to the local shop to get winterized and they put ATF in the V-drive which I no the walter v-drive calls for SAE 30 weight motor oil. My question is will this oil be interchangable? Called the sanger dealer and they said it is fine just wanted to get your guys opinion on this before I make them change it out. Thanks

rallyart 09-17-2012 4:27 PM

Mercury uses ATF in their transmissions but not in the V-driive. The two have different characteristics and are not really interchangeable but it is not the end of the world. Racers have put ATF in manual transmission in spec classes for years as the cars will run faster. However, the transmissions will also not last nearly as long. I would ask the shop to put in the recommended fluid and remove the ATF. That would be the correct thing for them to do. In a practical sense you could run 50 hours with ATF and not have it matter much but why take the risk.

rallyart 09-17-2012 4:32 PM

Oh, and the oil you put in should be a non detergent oil as there is no filter for it in the v-drive.

Brendon444 09-17-2012 4:43 PM

Thanks for the reply, I no there are other V-drives that run ATF in the V-drive so was wondering if it really mattered. I no in snowmobiles guys run ATF in the chaincase oppossed to gear oil and have no problems.

boardman74 09-17-2012 5:01 PM

The big thing is ATF has detergent and quite a bit of it. Without a filter that could be an issue. It will run and be ok, but like said above it could shorten your service life. If it was me I would take it back and have them put the right oil in. If they are servicing your boat it is their responsibility to put the right fluid into the right compartments.

antoddio 09-17-2012 5:27 PM

Best to change it out. No damage done by them putting it in but I would have them swap it out.

Brendon444 09-17-2012 6:20 PM

alright im going to bring it back tomorrow and get it changed out.

wakebordr11 09-17-2012 7:31 PM

Have you verified that is what they actually did? 2 transmissions with the merc? Velvet drive and Walter v drive? Maybe they only changed one or the other or the person who told you what they did had no effin clue what they were talking about.

09-17-2012 7:35 PM

If you pull the dipstick on the v-drive and smell it, you can tell real quick if it is in fact atf vs 30w oil.

wakebordr11 09-17-2012 8:13 PM

Color might also give it away...

09-17-2012 8:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakebordr11 (Post 1783695)
Color might also give it away...

Touche'

skippabcool 09-17-2012 8:48 PM

Supposedly the 30 wt is supposed to quiet the transmissions and v drive down. At least that was what the factory told me.

Brendon444 09-17-2012 9:17 PM

Yes I no for a fact they put ATF in the V-drive its not hard to tell. I called and told them they put ATF in the V-drive and they said other V-drives they did took ATF and thats what they put in this one. I'll be bringing it in tomorrow to get it changed to SAE 30.

wakebordr11 09-18-2012 5:47 AM

That's what I would do. Did they change your ATF in the velvet drive, or is it just one integral transmission/v-drive?

wakebordr11 09-18-2012 5:48 AM

I also might not bring my boat back there, I don't find many reasons to buck what the mfr says is recommended/required, especially when it comes to warranties these days.

cadunkle 09-18-2012 8:21 AM

Put in the recommended oil. Would you run ATF in the rear axle in your truck? Probably not, and if you tried it wouldn't last long before destroying your carrier and pinion bearings. Manual transmissions that use ATF (such as most ZF transmissions) have tighter clearances and different oiling systems than traditional transmissions. For example if you put gear oil in a ZF trans it will destroy the pocket bearing in short order, and other bearings will follow.

skippabcool 09-18-2012 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadunkle (Post 1783787)
Put in the recommended oil. Would you run ATF in the rear axle in your truck? Probably not, and if you tried it wouldn't last long before destroying your carrier and pinion bearings. Manual transmissions that use ATF (such as most ZF transmissions) have tighter clearances and different oiling systems than traditional transmissions. For example if you put gear oil in a ZF trans it will destroy the pocket bearing in short order, and other bearings will follow.

Interesting, where did you get the information in regards to the bearings? The reason I ask is I was told different and would like know if I need to change.

Here is what I was told from Tige along with my original questions:

Yes Marine Power changed it to 30 weight motor oil.

DEALER: Waterski Specialty
REPRESENTATIVE: Tony Fussell

CURRENT BOAT OWNED:
Boat Interest: 22 Ve
HEARD ABOUT TIGE FROM: Internet/EmailSEND BROCHURE & DVD: No


COMMENTS
-----------------------------
I bought my boat used and I am preparing it to take out. I was getting ready to do fluid changes. I have the ZF tranny and v drive. It says ATF only but it looks like there is a 30 weight oil in there instead. I have heard that at the factory the were putting 30 weight in instead of ATF to quite them down. Can this be confirmed? Should I drain it and put in ATF or go with what is in it? If not the ATF what should I be using?
Thanks,

cadunkle 09-18-2012 3:35 PM

Various ZF documents on the ZF pocket bearing failures. Here is one that mentions incorrect lubricant as a possible cause of bearing failure, though there are more specific ones (http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...g_ZF_S5-47.pdf). Also here is a picture of a ZF input shaft failure, note the gear oil in the picture, not ATF. May have been contributing factor.
http://img.waffleimages.com/bac00175...close%20sa.JPG

I also build engines and transmissions. Common knowledge, with tight tolerances if you run too thick of an oil (i.e. gear oil in a ZF5 made for ATF), oil will not get everywhere it needs to since tolerances are tighter. The resulting lack of lubrication rapidly accelerated wear and parts break.

Conversely in a rear axle if you run too light of an oil it'll get slung off the gears and bearings and not be carried to where it needs to be. ATF is not thick enough to walk on the gears and be carried where it needs to be, resulting in insufficient lubrication especially in hard to get to areas such as the pinion bearing. Result is a dry pinion bearing that wears rapidly and fails from insufficient lubrication.

ATF and 30w are not far off, and there are guys that run 20w or 30w in their automatic transmissions. It's a different type of application than a vdrive. a vdrive is more similar to a rear axle and typicaly runs either gear oil or motor oil, not ATF. Maybe the new vdrives are different, like some of the newer transmissions, I don't know. I'm just advising what I know about transmissions, axles, and lubrication in general. Stick with what's recommended by the manufacturer unless you built the unit and know the clearances and lubrication path.


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