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-   -   Diesel Wakeboard Boat (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=794648)

chicksdigflips 07-22-2012 2:30 PM

Diesel Wakeboard Boat
 
What is every one thought on doing a diesel Wakeboard boat.

How much more would you pay to have a diesel engine over a standard gas engine?

What positive/Negatives do you see?

Is there a demand for it in US?

Is there any overseas contacts that would put orders in for a diesel wakeboard boat?
(Reason I ask is I see it more popular over seas if so email me please)
Kody@chicksdigflips.com

Raf1985 07-22-2012 4:57 PM

It would be cool to run a smoke stack out the back and have a big black cloud come out when you punch it.

boomshot 07-22-2012 5:23 PM

Every mfg has messed with it in skunk works.

In other words this is nothing new, and outside the states there are a bunch of diesel converted Nautiques and MasterCrafts.

Electric and hybrid are more appropriate and futureproof. That's where it's at.

ilikebeaverandboats 07-22-2012 5:24 PM

I would want one. This topic has been beaten to *****.... for whatever reason manufacturers have not hopped on board.

Big_Mick 07-22-2012 5:57 PM

Nautique have a electric 230 and a ski 200.

As far as I know they are the only manufacture to even look at other options.

smitty1258 07-22-2012 6:22 PM

pretty sure Epic had the electric boat before Nautique?

http://evepic.com/water.html

MattieK27 07-22-2012 7:52 PM

I know Standard was looking at converting their boat to a vdrive with an Audi diesel, but the last two times I attempted to contact them I got no response. (I assume they are done)

Big_Mick 07-22-2012 8:09 PM

You might be right there!
I thought Nautique were first with the Ski 200.

Good to see a couple of companies looking at it.

At least with all those batteries the wake will be big hahaha :D

Guitarcrazy 07-22-2012 8:41 PM

I would love to have a diesel wakeboat. The diesel is perfect for a towboat. The only problem is how many lakes have diesel at the marina? I know mine doesn't. I also know they wouldn't pay the cost of adding a diesel option for the small percentage of wakeboats that would need the fuel. Diesel should be in almost everything we run. The new VW diesels (same as Audi), are quiet, powerful, and fuel misers.

shawndoggy 07-22-2012 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomshot (Post 1770011)
Every mfg has messed with it in skunk works.

In other words this is nothing new, and outside the states there are a bunch of diesel converted Nautiques and MasterCrafts.

Electric and hybrid are more appropriate and futureproof. That's where it's at.

how would a hybrid wakeboat work? What's teh corollary to regenerative breaking on a boat?

ilikebeaverandboats 07-22-2012 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawndoggy (Post 1770123)
how would a hybrid wakeboat work? What's teh corollary to regenerative breaking on a boat?

Yup. We could run some huge paddles off the sides of our boats..... The hybrid 2015 Xstar will draw its inspiration from this badboy...http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/TAU4030.jpg

But in all seriousness, diesel is the most realistic answer for us as wake boat consumers. I have yet to hear a realistic, informed argument against it. They are efficient, long lasting, durable, and provide more torque (what we need)...diesel also has a higher flashpoint....no need to operate the blower...the new cleaner diesels are insanely quite (go listen to a new powerstroke or cummins :roll eyes: )

and hey, I just like diesel :D

Raf1985 07-22-2012 11:52 PM

If I get a diesel boat I want my 7.3L in it. I want it to be loud and powerful and make people realize its a diesel :)

93rx7 07-23-2012 6:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf1985 (Post 1770152)
If I get a diesel boat I want my 7.3L in it. I want it to be loud and powerful and make people realize its a diesel :)

Yeah forget about economy and the other benefits of diesel... lets just worry about other people's opinion :p

jaybee 07-23-2012 6:28 AM

There is someone wit a diesel X-Star around here. Only met the guy once so don't know any of the specifics.

Iceberg 07-23-2012 7:12 AM

2000 rpm, 1-1 gearbox, 20 pitch prop = about 30 mph. Some of the ballast comes included with the engine. However, with the new smaller diesel engines you would probably need a tranny and some ballast. The higher revving engines are more versatile than the older style Cummins for sport boat applications.

lifetimewarranty 07-23-2012 7:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf1985 (Post 1770007)
It would be cool to run a smoke stack out the back and have a big black cloud come out when you punch it.

No, No it wouldn't. I love diesel, but even the new (domestic) clean ones reek when you are behind them...and that is normally where I like to be in regards to my boat (there's your argument beaver)

I say "No thanks".

As far as hybrid, forget regen - it is a good idea without regen even. I've said it before and I'll say it again - imagine pulling around and up to a fallen rider in complete silence (electric);)

If they can make an ultra quiet 4 or 6 cylinder diesel that I can't smell at all then maybe...but they are still nasty compared to gas. And beaver - most people have WAY less than 2000 hours on their boats and these normal engines easily do 3000 so why isn't that enough?

mikeski 07-23-2012 3:21 PM

Ecoboost

polarbill 07-23-2012 3:30 PM

The guy with the xstar put in a yanmar 6 cyclinder diesel if I remember right. I love the idea. Better then throwing a 550hp supercharged engine that needs to be refreshed every 300-500 hours.

ilikebeaverandboats 07-23-2012 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifetimewarranty (Post 1770197)
No, No it wouldn't. I love diesel, but even the new (domestic) clean ones reek when you are behind them...and that is normally where I like to be in regards to my boat (there's your argument beaver)

I say "No thanks".

As far as hybrid, forget regen - it is a good idea without regen even. I've said it before and I'll say it again - imagine pulling around and up to a fallen rider in complete silence (electric);)

If they can make an ultra quiet 4 or 6 cylinder diesel that I can't smell at all then maybe...but they are still nasty compared to gas. And beaver - most people have WAY less than 2000 hours on their boats and these normal engines easily do 3000 so why isn't that enough?


No matter what exhaust, it will stink, you shouldn't be in a position to be breathing a lot of it in regardless of your engine. I won't say that diesel exhaust smells like daisies...but are you trying to say the smell of gasoline exhaust is pleasant? Again, that argument isn't reason enough to nix the idea of diesel engines in wake boats. Exhaust is stinky, thats a fact, don't breath it. The only occasion that I can smell my exhaust is when the wind is just right and we are surfing.

hunter660 07-23-2012 5:51 PM

The big issue is money. It costs a lot more for a diesel. MC puts them in a few of the direct drive boats fo overseas sales, but I think there were problems with clearance for the oil pans on v drive boats. No one wanted to spend the money for a new design.

I would love to see a cummins 5.9 as an option on inboards.

ferral 07-23-2012 5:58 PM

I read a study a while back about how diesel is actually cleaner than gas. While true you can see/smell diesel exhaust more because of the soot, gas actually puts out more harmful gases. People just think of gas as cleaner because more of the gas is invisible/odorless like CO. I would definitely want diesel if it's an option.

volzalum 07-23-2012 6:33 PM

Cessna just released a turbo diesel 182 airplane, so maybe the boat manufacturers will follow suit.

polarbill 07-23-2012 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter660 (Post 1770390)
The big issue is money. It costs a lot more for a diesel. MC puts them in a few of the direct drive boats fo overseas sales, but I think there were problems with clearance for the oil pans on v drive boats. No one wanted to spend the money for a new design.

I would love to see a cummins 5.9 as an option on inboards.

I think the money issue/argument is losing ground with these bigger/heavier boats. These boats need 400hp minimum it looks like. A 300hp diesel was probably a 10k-15k option above the standard 350hp 350CI chevy but how much do these new 400hp-500hp supercharged big blocks cost? They have to be 10-15k more then the standard 350hp motor. My guess is a 350-400hp probably runs similar price to a supercharged 6.0L or big block. The diesel will get significantly better GPH though and won't be as affected by weight because of the huge amount of torque. Diesel's might still be more but not nearly as much as before.

wakerider111 07-23-2012 10:02 PM

since Pavati's wake boats are custom ordered and made they might be the easiest company to work with to get a diesel engine at this time?
http://www.pavati.com/wakeboarding_boat/true_custom/

tripsw 07-23-2012 10:09 PM

I think many schools in Europe would be interested. Actually, I know a school in the Netherlands was interested in the Standard diesel that was mentioned above. It definitely has my attention.

lifetimewarranty 07-24-2012 8:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats (Post 1770382)
No matter what exhaust, it will stink, you shouldn't be in a position to be breathing a lot of it in regardless of your engine. I won't say that diesel exhaust smells like daisies...but are you trying to say the smell of gasoline exhaust is pleasant? Again, that argument isn't reason enough to nix the idea of diesel engines in wake boats. Exhaust is stinky, thats a fact, don't breath it. The only occasion that I can smell my exhaust is when the wind is just right and we are surfing.


My point is that I can't smell 100 percent of normal cars when I am driving behind them but just one full size diesel truck I can smell far too much. These newer gas motors with cats are super duper clean and almost completely odorless (I'm talking boats here). No, I don't think gas exhaust is pleasant either - just way less noticeable. Not sure about the newer motors but what about soot in the water.....?

Don't get me wrong. I love diesels. But to be wakeboarding and have that smell coming at me continually would definitely be a huge negative. My boat doesn't have cats but I can't smell it while boarding.

Brett you are saying that every 3-500 hours a motor needs to be re-freshed? Did somebody hack your account?:cool:

Perhaps I am missing something on these new motors. Mine is original with nearly 1000 hours...

polarbill 07-24-2012 8:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifetimewarranty (Post 1770548)

Brett you are saying that every 3-500 hours a motor needs to be re-freshed? Did somebody hack your account?:cool:

Perhaps I am missing something on these new motors. Mine is original with nearly 1000 hours...



These new 450-550hp inboard engines more closely resemble high performance offshore engines. I am pretty sure engines like the Merc racing 525(which is a non supercharged engine) goes 400-500 hours before htey are suppose to be completely refreshed. They also need some top end work usually around 200-300 hours. If these new engines they are putting in wakeboats are similar then a lot of people are going to be in for a rude awakaning. I am not sure the cost but I would expect a few thousand at least for the top end service and 5k+ for a complete rebuilt.

cowwboy 07-24-2012 9:33 AM

I'd love to swap to a cummins 4bt. Do a nice twin turo with some healthy injectors.
Now to find time to even think about a motor swap. lol

lifetimewarranty 07-24-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1770565)
These new 450-550hp inboard engines more closely resemble high performance offshore engines. I am pretty sure engines like the Merc racing 525(which is a non supercharged engine) goes 400-500 hours before htey are suppose to be completely refreshed. They also need some top end work usually around 200-300 hours. If these new engines they are putting in wakeboats are similar then a lot of people are going to be in for a rude awakaning. I am not sure the cost but I would expect a few thousand at least for the top end service and 5k+ for a complete rebuilt.

I had no idea they were putting motors that needed any major work at 2-300 hours and re-builds at 400 hours in wakeboats. Barbaric!

polarbill 07-24-2012 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifetimewarranty (Post 1770611)
I had no idea they were putting motors that needed any major work at 2-300 hours and re-builds at 400 hours in wakeboats. Barbaric!

Please don't take wha tI am saying as fact. I just have a feeling that these new engines are going to have a lot shorter life spans then a standard 350hp 350. Maybe I am completely wrong though. I jsut don't see how you can slam 450-550hp out of a small block and expect it to be reliable for very long. Also, the initial cost is a lot closer to a diesel than what the older 350's are.

My point was that one of the main arguments made for not going to diesel was the added cost of the diesel. Well, that doesn't really exist anymore, or the difference isn't nearly as much as it use to be. IF, and it might be a big if, these new 450-550hp motors only last 500 hours then the cost is probably more for the big gas engine, especially when you add in the added fuel costs. Now for some it might not work because they dont' have diesel on their lake. One thing to consider is I am guessing you can use farm diesel in a boat which doesn't have some of the same road use taxes. Maybe I am wrong there.

polarbill 07-24-2012 10:18 AM

Also, these are the motors you are seeing in these new, huge battleships liek the G23, G25 and new Xstar. Most regular boats can probably get by with the regular 350 or ~400hp 6.0L. not sure what kind of life they are getting out of the 409hp 6.0/6.2?

MWG 07-25-2012 6:49 PM

Mastercraft offered the VW 6 cylinder diesel as an option for several boats. It had an outrageous price tag.. Something like $30k.

hunter660 07-26-2012 5:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWG (Post 1771019)
Mastercraft offered the VW 6 cylinder diesel as an option for several boats. It had an outrageous price tag.. Something like $30k.

And it was a beast in the prostars.

cadunkle 07-26-2012 7:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1770616)
Please don't take wha tI am saying as fact. I just have a feeling that these new engines are going to have a lot shorter life spans then a standard 350hp 350. Maybe I am completely wrong though. I jsut don't see how you can slam 450-550hp out of a small block and expect it to be reliable for very long. Also, the initial cost is a lot closer to a diesel than what the older 350's are.

My point was that one of the main arguments made for not going to diesel was the added cost of the diesel. Well, that doesn't really exist anymore, or the difference isn't nearly as much as it use to be. IF, and it might be a big if, these new 450-550hp motors only last 500 hours then the cost is probably more for the big gas engine, especially when you add in the added fuel costs. Now for some it might not work because they dont' have diesel on their lake. One thing to consider is I am guessing you can use farm diesel in a boat which doesn't have some of the same road use taxes. Maybe I am wrong there.

It's true, you can only get so much HP from an engine before longevity and driveability become an issue. It's even more difficult in towboats because you can't cam them to be screamers like you can a light jet or vdrive due to wet exhaust under water and need for low end torque.

Bottom line, around 1.3 HP per cubic inch things start becoming problematic for most engines, and low RPM driveability suffers well before that generally around 1 HP per cube. Look at the older engines...
240 HP 351w: .69 HP/cu.in.
260 HP 350: .74 HP/cu.in.
330 HP 454: .73 HP/cu.in.
vs Newer (better head and cam design mostly)
325 HP 350 : .93 HP/cu.in.
350 HP 350: 1 HP/cu.in.
409 HP 466: 1.1 HP/cu.in.
540 HP 379: 1.4 HP/cu.in.

Naturally aspirated you're not getting much over 1 HP/cube before you have driveability issues. Forced induction gets you more power while retaining driveability but is very expensive and has more parts to break. It boggles my mind why nobody puts big blocks in towboats anymore. It's cheaper per HP and results in greater longevity. The 454 is a good platform and is already heavily deveoped for marine use (readily available parts). The 460 is an even better platform though hasn't been used as extensively and would require more investment in new parts for this application. With a 460 based engine you can get an easy 700 HP with great low RPM driveability and torque well above any small diesel. It's last way longer between rebuilds than any supercharged small block and won't have to spin to the moon.

Bottom line is there's only so much you can get out of a small engine and haul around a heavy boat pushing nearly as much extra ballast as the boat itself weighs. Using a small block for this application is forcing a square peg in a round hole. You need big torque numbers, and that means either big block or diesel.

05sante 07-26-2012 8:25 AM

I would be concerned about diesel soot in the water. I know modern urea injected diesel engines are cleaner and virtually sootless but I also know its not uncommon for people to modify their diesels to squeeze out more power/efficiency. They turn their modern clean diesels back into dirty soot monsters all over again.

polarbill 07-26-2012 8:33 AM

Sean, Diesels are pretty much standard in every boat above 40'. Also, I am not sure people with marine diesel's are modifying their engines in any way. Especially not like people with diesel pickup. I know diesel smells worse and looks worse(black smoke) but I am not sure they are actually any worse for the environment then a gas engine? Anybody know? By the added fuel economy alone they might be better for the environement.

norcalrider 07-26-2012 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1771130)
Sean, Diesels are pretty much standard in every boat above 40'. Also, I am not sure people with marine diesel's are modifying their engines in any way. Especially not like people with diesel pickup. I know diesel smells worse and looks worse(black smoke) but I am not sure they are actually any worse for the environment then a gas engine? Anybody know? By the added fuel economy alone they might be better for the environement.

Depends on the engine... The modern bluetec, TDI and/or emission controlled diesels with PM filters and catalytics are very clean. Then there is the efficiency to consider. With these newer diesels emissions are comparable.

I've been thinking of repowering my houseboat with a duramax or cummins when I pull it next. Figure it will be more efficient than the 1970 Chrysler 360cu/in I'm currently running. Just need to find one in a salvage yard or a GMC/Chevy/Isuzu box truck on the cheap.

lifetimewarranty 07-26-2012 1:28 PM

Found this thread of a guy getting ready to put a duramax in a X80:eek:

http://www.duramaxforum.com/forum/dm...t-started.html

Here is a fun video also - xstar with the volks diesel

http://youtu.be/zWLf_BqZzv4

nitrousbird 07-26-2012 1:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1770565)
These new 450-550hp inboard engines more closely resemble high performance offshore engines. I am pretty sure engines like the Merc racing 525(which is a non supercharged engine) goes 400-500 hours before htey are suppose to be completely refreshed. They also need some top end work usually around 200-300 hours. If these new engines they are putting in wakeboats are similar then a lot of people are going to be in for a rude awakaning. I am not sure the cost but I would expect a few thousand at least for the top end service and 5k+ for a complete rebuilt.

These motors being put into Wakeboats are just plucked from GM's lineup. 550HP LSA - right out of the Camaro ZL1 and CTS-V. LS3 out of the Vette & 6-speed Camaro SS. Others are out of trucks. Modern head and intake design, lightweight valves, lighter rotating assemblies, better intake design and more efficient engines are what are making the extra power. These aren't racing engines - just modern street engines.


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