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-   -   No vests.... really? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=793171)

canadian_waterboy 05-03-2012 6:38 PM

No vests.... really?
 
I've noticed that a lot of the recent videos posted on this website feature riders without a vest (Specifically the bonus Defy segment with Harf and most of the shredtown stuff). Ultimately I think its up to the each individual rider to make responsible choices. However at the same time I'm troubled that many young riders may mimic the no vest style and put themselves in jeopardy. I'm bombarded by media that praises these sponsored riders as ambassadors of our sport, however I feel that their decision to ride without a vest is irresponsible and send the wrong message to impressionable riders. What do you guys think about this? Also what do you think about media outlets that chose to publish this content?.. ie magazines, production companies, and well..... this website...

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, I just think its an important forum for discussion.

hyperlite_boards 05-03-2012 6:57 PM

Sure it is up to the riders to wear the vests and rep their sponsors but like you said it is ultimately their decision. The video you were talking about with danny and greenwood was just them going out to have fun, they probly didnt even think the video would get out. I mean first of all listen to the song, second Sean Kilgus was riding in it. (not saying he is bad but i dont think he has many edits of himself out there, but he sure knows how to make a movie) I would think that riders like these always have a camera on them when they are behind the boat, but are smart enough to wear a vest and rep their sponsors if the video is going on the web. This was probably something in Kilgus's basement that just happened to get out there. Like the caption said it was just a fun day while they were filming for defy, these guys were probably just relieving some stress and hanging out.

All of this being said I always wear my vest and so does everyone i ride with.

cadunkle 05-03-2012 7:14 PM

To each his own. It's your body and your life so you can do waht you want with it. None of my business what anyone else does, be if CGA, comp, or none. Now I try to be a safety first kind of guy when on the boat. Heck, I don't even bring beer, which seems shocking to a lot of people (another can of worms I think). I would say I always wear a vest, but I confess there have been a couple times I've forgot.

Each time it has been when rushing out after work in late summer/early autumn racing against sunset and tide to get a quick ride in, and just cold enough to start needing a heater top. So a couple times I've put my top on and started riding, I guess the motions made me think it was a vest subconsciously. The couple times it's happened I've noticed pretty quick and put a vest on. Stuff happens, I'm not perfect, but normally I always wear a vest simply because I don't want to drown if I take a hard fall... and of course everyone on my boat wears one too, when riding.

logan 05-03-2012 8:13 PM

You make your own decisions, if you are riding without one because pros sometimes do then you're an idiot. I ride with one almost all the time. If I'm hitting rails or skating in a pond I ride without one usually, my own choice and I do it on my own call not because pros ride without them time to time.

TheHebrewHammer 05-03-2012 8:58 PM

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durty_curt 05-03-2012 9:13 PM

^^^^^^hahahahaha!

Wiatowski 05-03-2012 10:12 PM

Saw the video and said the same thing to myself.... I've already posted my opinions on the subject so I'm not going to be the picture above.
I wear a vest all the time, my life is worth the 20 seconds to put it on.
If you choose not to, then don't blame the emergency crew for not saving your life, and don't expect me to feel sorry for you.

scbrips 05-03-2012 10:34 PM

Notice the horse is not wearing a CGA vest.

stxr_racer 05-04-2012 1:50 AM

^^^ They don't come in size XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL :D ^^^

jaybee 05-04-2012 8:05 AM

Seth - It is not beating a dead horse. It is a serious issue. I hope this comes up every year as it should be constantly addressed.

quik876 05-04-2012 8:32 AM

One thing is If it's just one boat, then I'd say don't risk it, it is a serious issue and you take that risk every time you make that decision, just look at Chad Sharpe's decision to go vestless a season or two ago when he went for a 540 variation. he came close to drowning, luckily the driver was watchin' out and was able to get back to him since he was temporarily unable to move. but if you have a chase boat or PWC with you it does lessen the risk...to a degree or three. but most of these videos have that disclaimer/warning show up prior to the start of the video, whether or not it is read/taken seriously is another story. this sport, just like any other is risky, no doubt. and no matter how many precautions you take, there's always that possibility of Murphy's law steppin' in to throw a wrench in the works. but the best way to have fun, is be safe. so in general, wear ur vests folks, some risks aren't worth it to take. shred the mirror, spread the fun.

juniorhawk 05-04-2012 8:45 AM

I used to ride without a vest. Then people started dying. I often still wakeskate without one. I understand not wearing one because sometimes it just feels great. I DO NOT understand the high-level training type of riding in just a t shirt (lookin' at you Rathy, Rusty, Chad - those guys go hard, awesome, but often no vest). I think my A-10 vest gives me as much room as I think I need and still provides safety. They probably have a good reason why no vest - but I don't know what that reason could be :( I just don't want anybody else drowning from that decision to not wear a vest during a serious, serious session or video section. I don't want to read those "told you so's" after an event like that (which I feel is inevitable).

fly135 05-04-2012 8:45 AM

I trick skied and barefooted for many years without a vest. Back in the old days when nobody gave a crap about what you did.

TheHebrewHammer 05-04-2012 9:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybee (Post 1749401)
Seth - It is not beating a dead horse. It is a serious issue. I hope this comes up every year as it should be constantly addressed.

No doubt it's a serious issue, but don't fret. It comes up at least twice a month. Every time there's a video of a pro riding without a vest, someone starts this discussion. Lately it's been Aaron Rathy, but it's always someone and it's always the same arguments. Hence the joke.

TheHebrewHammer 05-04-2012 9:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juniorhawk (Post 1749420)
They probably have a good reason why no vest - but I don't know what that reason could be :(

As you said, riding without a vest feels good. Also, in the case of guys like Rathy, it's to show off their gnarley tats and six-pack abs.

Not good reasons to risk your life in my opinion.

pickle311 05-04-2012 9:50 AM

I have a bit of a different take on it. I'm typically a very open minded person and quick to say to each their own, but not when it comes to safety on the water. As a boat owner/captain, you're ultimately responsible for everyone on your boat and everyone you are towing. I've never run into this issue as everyone on my boat always wears a vest, but I don't think I'd pull someone who wasn't wearing one. Wakesurfing sure, but not boarding. We've all knocked ourselves stupid at one point while wakeboarding. Behind my boat I've dislocated my knee, torn muscles, had a friend break his leg, and several other nasty hits. I don't want to think about how much worse those situations could have gone had any of us not been wearing a vest when it happened.
I feel the same way about riding a motorcycle without a helmet. It's just plain ignorant. If it weren't for helmets, I would have been dead a long time ago. They have saved me on numerous occasions.

migs 05-04-2012 9:52 AM

ITs the responsibility of the boat owner to make sure his/her riders are wearing vests. Not the pro's.

behindtheboat 05-04-2012 11:17 AM

Some people won't wear vests, but they'll ride in a cotton t shirt......... which is comfortable and very mobile once soaking wet........

captain_vilfo 05-04-2012 12:42 PM

I think its common sense.. wear a vest, and you get to live to ride again

skiboarder 05-04-2012 12:43 PM

It may seem like beating a dead-horse to the guys that have been in the sport for a while, but It makes for a firey discussion and I think it is good for the new riders to hear.

After 18 years of wakeboarding, I can count on one hand the times I have ridden without a vest. If you wakeboard long enough you will be affected by someones decision to not wear a vest--be it a pro you admire, a friend or even a close call of your own. It is a peronal decision (not even a law in Texas), but a risky one.

All that said, I rarely wear a CGA vest, but I recently had to discontinue my Non-CGA vest because after years of use, I was not comfortable with how it floated me. Vests loose bouancy over time and some vests may seem safe, but dont really float you at all.

CGA or Not, make sure the vest will float you before you use it.

trdon 05-04-2012 7:52 PM

My thoughts, if kids are impressionable enough to not ride with a vest, they are young enough to still have their parents driving the boat while they ride, and the responsibility falls on them. If they are old enough to take the boat themselves, they are responsible enough to reap what they sow. People know the risks of riding without a vest, pre teen to adult. People arent dumb enough to actually say that since harf isnt riding with a vest, I will be fine. I just dont see it. On the other hand, youth nowadays are pretty dumb :banghead:

lfadam 05-04-2012 8:22 PM

What gets me is that there are a bunch of people that get up in arms when they see a rider without a vest on, but nobody ever cares or points out that probably 90% of the pros riding in "vests" are non-CGA vests that will have the same effects as not wearing a vest. A Jetpilot A-10 for example floats about as good as a tshirt. I wear a non-CGA vest, and it floats me if I have any air in my lungs, but if they filled with water I would slowly sink, and this is a relatively high floatation non-CGA vest.

I just think its ironic/shortsighted.

05-04-2012 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1749421)
I trick skied and barefooted for many years without a vest. Back in the old days when nobody gave a crap about what you did.

They still trick without vests, even the young kids. You dont see a single person tricking wearing a vest and they even have the rope looped on their foot. Barefooters...same thing, no vest going 35 mph. Most slalom skiers never wear a cga approved vest either.

Now I understand wakeboarders are doing this much higher in the air 80' behind the boat but what about jumpers traveling 80mph going 200+ feet with no vest on.

To each its own...its up to the parents to make sure their kids are doing the right thing.

Wiatowski 05-04-2012 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiboarder (Post 1749497)
All that said, I rarely wear a CGA vest, but I recently had to discontinue my Non-CGA vest because after years of use, I was not comfortable with how it floated me. Vests loose bouancy over time and some vests may seem safe, but dont really float you at all.

CGA or Not, make sure the vest will float you before you use it.

I never thought about that before... and is a very excellent point!

ralph 05-04-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migs (Post 1749444)
ITs the responsibility of the boat owner to make sure his/her riders are wearing vests. Not the pro's.

This x1000. No one rides behind my boat without a vest, if someone died behind my boat it would ruin the sport for me. What happens behind other peoples boats isn't really my concern.

lfadam 05-04-2012 10:08 PM

LR3w8kbrdr, you won't find a jump skier without a wetsuit made specifically for jumping and a helmet. Jumpsuits have tons of floatation built in (more than a life vest). I have worked at a ski/wakeboard camp for years and have never seen a jump skier ride without a vest (jumpsuit). Slalomers and trickers on the other hand...

I have never understood this. Trick skiers never ever wear a vest. The justification I have heard is that a vest would get in the way and they are going slower so they don't fall as hard/risk getting knocked out. I dont buy the getting in the way aspect when talking about a non-CGA vest. They dont get in the way of wakeboarders spinning 1080s. But the speed argument is somewhat legit. 17mph isnt much faster than wakesurfing. I have tricked before and caught a nasty edge. It hurt but it was not nearly as bad as a wakeboard edge catch. Even still-I feel like you could still get KOed somehow (ski hitting you in the head, just like wakeskating). Slalomers almost always wear vests, just often non-CGA so the same debate applies. But it has always seemed like a load of bologna to me.

05-04-2012 10:18 PM

Ive been one of those who has taken a slalom to the head, received 30 stitches and concussion skiing, was wearing a non cga vest at the time and thankfully had a driver who reacted quickly bc most of time we never used spotters.

But i dont want to get this topic of base bc its not wakeboarding related.

simplej 05-04-2012 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by behindtheboat (Post 1749468)
Some people won't wear vests, but they'll ride in a cotton t shirt......... which is comfortable and very mobile once soaking wet........

they wear shirts over their vests... twelker and maur is im sure who youre referencing

mastercraf 05-07-2012 10:34 AM

pro hockey players don't wear face masks...so they can see the puck better. Basically risking a facial deformity or death if they get hit with a fast moving puck. Young players are always wearing a mask!

This is just my analogy but they are PROs. Yea they do fall, and yea they do make mistakes. I would say the majority of the time when they aren't wearing a vest they are doing tricks they have dialed in.

I would say when they go for the 10's or 12's and are blasting double ups they are wearing a vest and protecting themselves. I agree with others who have said if kids can be pursuaded that it's cool to not wear a vest because the pros do it should reep the consiquences.

boomshot 05-07-2012 11:19 AM

Can you link us to the bonus Defy section you are talking about?

canadian_waterboy 05-08-2012 12:12 AM

http://vimeo.com/8022284

This is the segment I was referring to.

Also, i'd like to clarify that my original post wasn't really intended to critique those adults who choose not to wear a vest. In my opinion it is the individual's perogative to make decisions like these. Ultimately every person's perception of risk and reward will be different. For example, i'm sure a least one commentator who rebuked those vestless riders is also a smoker, has a passion for base jumping, or participates in any number of activities that could be considered "risky" by the general populous. I personally believe riding vestless is the epitome of stupidity, but then again many of the choices I have made may be considered equally idiotic. My friends and family have told me that my driving habits resemble those of a character from "the fast and the furious," albeit far more reckless and far less skilled. Hell, I bet a significant proportion of the North American population would think ALL of us were absolutely nuts for willingly inverting ourselves behind a moving boat (don't even get my started about the perceived Lunacy of cable riding... I mean seriously.... giant immovable obstacles made of wood and hard plastic..really?! ) For a lot of people, I bet wakeboarding in and of itself would be rejected based on its perceived risks.
So am I a hypocrite? Does my aversion to highway safety negate my beliefs about water safety? Are most Americans ignorant of the sport we love or are all riders imbeciles? I don't think there will ever be a straightforward answer. I think risk is an extradordinarily difficult factor to evaluate, maybe not for statisticians or insurance adjustors, but for average people like myself. I think it is so difficult to judge because the correlation between a particular action and a given consequence is rarely constant. I might ride my entire life with nothing but a loin cloth, and live to the ripe old age of 90. Having said that, little timmy next door might neglect his USCG approved vest just once in his entire life, and pay the consequences.

My original post had much more to do with the relationship between sponsored athletes and impressionable youth. I completely disagree with those contributors who argued that the actions of pros have no bearing on the decisions young riders make. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF SPONSORSHIP! Companies are not paying their athletes for altruistic reasons, they are doing so to influence a target demographic to buy their product. If a sponsored athletes' social authority is strong enough to dictate what equipment some kid buys, why isn't it sufficient to affect their choices when it comes to safety on the water? Kids are impressionable. Their life experiences are often insufficient to make informed decisions, especially regarding risky behaviour. I don't think its enough to simply assume that kids will make the right choices, and to put the owness exclusively on parents betrays the core issue issue here. My parents were adamant that I ride with a vest when I was younger, but like most rebellious teenagers, I disregarded their instructions. I distinctly remember watching Muskoka Militia 3 and thinking, "Rusty looks like a boss riding with no vest." My skewed adolscent mind informed me that I would not only ride better, but i'd looked jacked in the process (At this time I was about 5 foot 7, and 120 pounds soaking wet) It wasn't until my buddy dislocated his shoulder and nearly drowned that I snapped to and realized how flawed my logic was. My point is that Kids are stupid. I was stupid. Unfortunately, the consequences of such stupidity are often so severe that they curtails one's ability to amend their rationale... you can't learn from your mistakes when you are dead... While Pro's have to right to wear whatever the FU^& they want when they are training/ messing around with their peers, they have a social responsibility to wear a damn vest when they are in the public spotlight. I don't care if its less comfortable, chafes their nipples, accentuates their love handles, or limits their mobility (even though we all know it doesn't). If a camera is on, or people are watching, its simply irresponsible to ride with no vest. As public figures to be emulated sponsored athletes have a responsibility to young riders everywhere to set a proper example.

SIde Note: For those of you who argued that Harf may not have known the camera was on or realized that the fottage would eventually be diseminated ...... give me a break.... for goodness sake he was riding with Kilgus! It doesn't take a genius to surmise that while riding with a notable action sports filmmaker, he might actually pick up a camera and film you..... (This assumption becomes even more obvious when you consider that this notable film maker is creating a new film WITH YOU as his primary subject)

Second side note: I'm not beating a dead horse with this issue… or even if I am … so what? Obviously the salacious flogging this issue has taken has been insufficient to change anyone’s attitude; otherwise I wouldn’t see countless ads and videos featuring riders with no vest... By saying that, you are simply making light of a serious issue, and condoning a practice that unnecessarily puts an entire generation of young riders at risk… It’s this kind of discussion that compels people to take action. While preaching on wakeworld isn’t going to compel Harf to grow up and wear a vest, opting to support a company like CWB that makes an effort to promote safety certainly might. If enough people chose to make this an issue, the companies that support these athletes would eventually listen.

dakid 05-08-2012 12:28 AM

http://bit.ly/Jm161F

a pro crashing on a simple 180 that he had dialed. i'm just sayin'.

kristian 05-08-2012 1:33 AM

^^^^ what he said.

Don't wear a vest, you're an idiot in my books (for many reasons)..... just don't want it to take another fallen brother to the sport to make people realise that again.

TheHebrewHammer 05-08-2012 8:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakid (Post 1750206)
http://bit.ly/Jm161F

a pro crashing on a simple 180 that he had dialed. i'm just sayin'.

Wow man, that article was so well written. It really hit home. And canadian_waterboy, c'mon man. If you're gonna throw up a wall of text like that, at least gimme some cliff's notes!

fullspeed 05-08-2012 9:05 AM

AGAIN WITH THE VEST TOPIC !!!! HOLY COW.

This topic has been beat to death already. If a pro/ or non pro wants to take the risk of death, then so be it. It is not our life to decide for them. :banghead:

I have been knocked out cold with a blown ear drum doing a simple trick...by the way all my tricks are super simple. I had a Coast Guard Approved Vest on and I still walk on this planet, because of it.


After the accident I now hear a helmet, but that is another stupid topic that has also been beat to death on WW. So TheHebrewHammer don't start that thread either please.:D

I choose life, so I wear a vest. Pretty simple.

denverd1 05-08-2012 10:12 AM

Thank you B. There isn't a dead horse that gets beat more than this one.

Cover your own ass and quit worrying about everyone else. Enjoy the summer.

behindtheboat 05-08-2012 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplej (Post 1749600)
they wear shirts over their vests... twelker and maur is im sure who youre referencing

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, more just a general comment on the trend of wearing wet shirts.

mastercraf 05-08-2012 3:17 PM

....your board should float....maybe we should beat the binding release issue instead?

JohnP 05-08-2012 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mastercraf (Post 1750376)
....your board should float....maybe we should beat the binding release issue instead?

I remember when i was younger i hopped in with just my board on and it must have been my size but i started to sink and the board float. Therefore i was underwater. needless to say it is not easy to put on a life jacket wile you are under water. I always wear my jacket and so does every one who rides in my boat. the only person who does not is the one person i let trick and that is only if we are on the private ski lake or if the public lake is not busy and that is only because for some reason trick skiers don't wear them in comp...

Wiatowski 05-08-2012 5:11 PM

I kinda think waterboys point is being missed.... And correct me if I'm wrong... is this;
Even if your state doesn't have a law that says you have to wear one (and there's one in Canada) Common sense tells us we are safer with them on.
Pro boarders should set an example for all when it comes to the sport, cause that's who the kids look up to, and therefore imitate.
If you're playing for a professional team and break the rules or do something to make the organization look bad you can loose sponsorships and your right to play.... Should it be any different for PROFFESIONAL wakeboarders.
If you have to wear one to compete.... you should always have to wear one! And don't give me any of this " it hinders movement" garbage.....cause they're throwing the same tricks in a "chill" session that they would in comp.

that was my .04 and now I'm broke thanks alot. :S

canadian_waterboy 05-10-2012 5:20 PM

^^^^^ THANK YOU!!! Finally someone who acknowledges that this thread is about more than just the decision to wear a vest. It's about the impact professionals make on young riders. I guess it's probably my own fault for launching into an unnecessarily long tirade, and not getting to the core of the issue.

TheHebrewHammer 05-10-2012 5:23 PM

Ya, sure, but that too has been beaten. It's all the same discussion. And it's been beaten. Whipped, spun, torn, mauled, flagellated, and done.

Wiatowski 05-10-2012 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHebrewHammer (Post 1751051)
Ya, sure, but that too has been beaten. It's all the same discussion. And it's been beaten. Whipped, spun, torn, mauled, flagellated, and done.

Somebody owns a thesaurus! :D

TheHebrewHammer 05-10-2012 9:55 PM

No, I AM a thesaurus. Writing has always kinda been my thing.

dakid 05-11-2012 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHebrewHammer (Post 1751051)
Ya, sure, but that too has been beaten. It's all the same discussion. And it's been beaten. Whipped, spun, torn, mauled, flagellated, and done.

so stop clicking on them.

da_moose 05-11-2012 5:49 AM

Shaun White with out a helmet

TheHebrewHammer 05-11-2012 8:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakid (Post 1751124)
so stop clicking on them.

No sweat off my back to click on 'em, partner.


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