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-   -   Mitt’s Income vs. Your Income (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=791607)

Shooter 01-25-2012 5:21 PM

Mitt’s Income vs. Your Income
 
http://www.slate.com/articles/busine...r_salary_.html

The best part about Mitt is that he only pays 13-15% in taxes. I agree that I cant blame him for just following the tax code, but it doesnt sound like he is too worried about fixing it either.

In 2010, Mitt Romney made $50000 in 20 hours 13 minutes and 13 seconds.

It would take 433 years 2 months 21 days 23 hours 28 minutes and 7 seconds to make what Mitt made in 2010 if you made 50K a year.

"Dont hate the player, hate the game"

ttrigo 01-25-2012 5:28 PM

when 95% of your income is based off of investments, you too can pay 15% in taxes. (I dont know the actual numbers, but it makes sense)

fly135 01-25-2012 6:01 PM

Train, I think you missed the point..

wakeworld 01-25-2012 6:01 PM

Why would you want to discourage investment by "fixing" this situation? We should be thanking people like Mitt Romney that somehow figured out a way to make a load of cash in the first place (on which he paid regular income taxes) and then put his cash back into the economy by investing in other businesses (the profits of which were most likely taxed at the corporate rate) before what's left of those profits go back into his pocket (after getting taxed once again at the capital gains rate). The fundamental misunderstanding of the different tax types and tax rates by many is astonishing. Even the news anchors don't even seem to have a full grasp of it.

Don't even get me started on them comparing Romney's "effective" tax rate (recalculating it after he gets a perfectly legal deduction for donating millions to charity) to Buffet's secretary's rate of 15%. Talk about apples to oranges.

hunter660 01-25-2012 6:24 PM

Both of my sons (6 & 9) are in Cub scouts, one of the things they had to do was visit a bank and learn about how they work. One of the questions they are supposed to ask is "If I invest $20 today, how much will it be worth when I turn 18?" When the back tells them $20.87 or something close, its a little hard to get them to see the point in investing in anything.

wakeworld 01-25-2012 6:51 PM

Quote:

When the back tells them $20.87 or something close, its a little hard to get them to see the point in investing in anything.
Why "anything?" That should discourage them from investing in a bank account only. They didn't learn anything about investing in other areas (real estate, stocks, etc.). However, there is still a place for that bank account in their investment portfolio if they need liquid assets.

Shooter 01-25-2012 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeworld (Post 1728040)
Why would you want to discourage investment by "fixing" this situation? We should be thanking people like Mitt Romney that somehow figured out a way to make a load of cash in the first place (on which he paid regular income taxes) and then put his cash back into the economy by investing in other businesses (the profits of which were most likely taxed at the corporate rate) before what's left of those profits go back into his pocket (after getting taxed once again at the capital gains rate). The fundamental misunderstanding of the different tax types and tax rates by many is astonishing. Even the news anchors don't even seem to have a full grasp of it.

Don't even get me started on them comparing Romney's "effective" tax rate (recalculating it after he gets a perfectly legal deduction for donating millions to charity) to Buffet's secretary's rate of 15%. Talk about apples to oranges.

Dave, I have a basic "fundamental understanding of the different types of taxes". The problem is that many like you can't see the forest through the trees. Capital gains tax was as high as 28% at one time in the not so distant past. How has that reduction worked so far?

I get it, the wealthy have a lot of money to invest and high dollar tax professionals to use all of those loopholes. This system allows the wealthy to pay a lower tax rate. I believe anyone should pay a min tax if their primary income is investments especially when they pay less than 1/2 of what the rest of America pays.

I'm not going to thank Mitt for making all of this taxable income until he pays around the same tax percentage as me on his income. If mitt didn't create those jobs, someone else would and If he cant create jobs without government tax breaks and corporate welfare then he should move over for the next guy who can.

Notice I did not say Mitt's tax rate was 13%. Why? Because that was his tax rate after giving millions to the mormon church and that would not be fair.


The government should not need to give a tax incentive to invest....period

wakeworld 01-25-2012 7:44 PM

Quote:

If he cant create jobs without government tax breaks and corporate welfare then he should move over for the next guy who can.
It's not really a question of whether or not he CAN do it. It's more a question of where he can do it and get the highest return. If we raise the capital gains tax to 28% or whatever number you want, it will not encourage investment in U.S. companies unless capital gains rates elsewhere are higher. It's all relative.

It cracks me up that in Obama's SOTU speech he complains about companies doing business overseas and then he turns around and tells those same business owners that he's going to raise their taxes. Duh!!! Raise my taxes and I start looking elsewhere for investment opportunities. Lower my taxes and U.S. investments start looking more attractive. Seems like common sense, but even our president can't put two and two together.

wakecumberland 01-26-2012 6:45 AM

Shooter, What is your effective tax rate? Don't get "effective" rate mixed up with your tax bracket. You may be suprised that its not higher than Mitt's:

http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-f...tax-rate-9548/

In my opinion, I pay too much in taxes. Mitt Romney pays too much in taxes. We all do.

The bottom line is, the government takes to much of all of our money, rich or not, and spends even more!

wakeworld 01-26-2012 6:51 AM

^^^ Agreed. That's the other big misunderstanding out there. We could tax all the billionaires in the U.S. at a rate of 100% and it still wouldn't put a dent in our budget deficit. That makes the conversation about "fair" taxes moot in the big scheme of things. I hate to throw out two DUHs in one thread, but we need to cut government spending...plain and simple.

fly135 01-26-2012 7:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeworld (Post 1728051)
It's not really a question of whether or not he CAN do it. It's more a question of where he can do it and get the highest return. If we raise the capital gains tax to 28% or whatever number you want, it will not encourage investment in U.S. companies unless capital gains rates elsewhere are higher. It's all relative.

This makes no sense. Lower capital gains taxes hasn't been shown to do anything except make the wealthy wealthier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeworld (Post 1728051)
It cracks me up that in Obama's SOTU speech he complains about companies doing business overseas and then he turns around and tells those same business owners that he's going to raise their taxes. Duh!!! Raise my taxes and I start looking elsewhere for investment opportunities. Lower my taxes and U.S. investments start looking more attractive. Seems like common sense, but even our president can't put two and two together.

I thought he talked about tax breaks for companies that hire Americans vs sending jobs overseas. Regardless, it's all a dog an pony show whether it's Democrats or Republicans. The real way to create Americans jobs is to discourage imports and balance the trade deficit.

Oh and the idea that we should be thanking Romney making lots of money is ludicrous.

wakeworld 01-26-2012 7:56 AM

Quote:

This makes no sense. Lower capital gains taxes hasn't been shown to do anything except make the wealthy wealthier.
We see it all the time between states with people moving their business out of states like California (high taxes) and into states like Nevada (low taxes). If you think the simple concept of competition for investment dollars "makes no sense" then I can't say anything that will help you to understand.

Quote:

Oh and the idea that we should be thanking Romney making lots of money is ludicrous.
Really? You can't appreciate the fact that we need entrepreneurs to create new products, ideas, etc.? You can't appreciate the fact that he's stimulating the economy by investing his money in it, which creates jobs, wealth, etc.? Would our country be better off if Romney had just gotten a nice, safe salaried job and never created all the businesses and wealth which he's created? Would we better off if he stuffed his millions in a savings account making 1% interest or if he invests it in businesses like he has done?

ord27 01-26-2012 8:09 AM

you are barking at the moon David.....

psudy 01-26-2012 8:09 AM

"This makes no sense. Lower capital gains taxes hasn't been shown to do anything except make the wealthy wealthier."

Since when is making money bad. It makes no sense that you would want to raise it to allow the government to spend more. Why do the people have to put up with over inflated government spending.

psudy 01-26-2012 8:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter (Post 1728049)
Dave, I have a basic "fundamental understanding of the different types of taxes".

No. You don't.

fly135 01-26-2012 8:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeworld (Post 1728101)
We see it all the time between states with people moving their business out of states like California (high taxes) and into states like Nevada (low taxes). If you think the simple concept of competition for investment dollars "makes no sense" then I can't say anything that will help you to understand.

Florida has some of the lowest corp taxes in the nation along with the lowest income tax (none) and low real estate taxes. It hasn't done a thing for business.

You are right that you can't help me. You don't understand that the low tax rates introduced by Bush not only haven't produced the results you claim will happen, but they correlate with just the opposite. Why would your words trump reality?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeworld (Post 1728101)
Really? You can't appreciate the fact that we need entrepreneurs to create new products, ideas, etc.? You can't appreciate the fact that he's stimulating the economy by investing his money in it, which creates jobs, wealth, etc.? Would our country be better off if Romney had just gotten a nice, safe salaried job and never created all the businesses and wealth which he's created? Would we better off if he stuffed his millions in a savings account making 1% interest or if he invests it in businesses like he has done?

I love the last sentence. Apparently you think that all money not invested in the way Romney invested it is stuffed in a mattress at the bank.

fly135 01-26-2012 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728105)
"This makes no sense. Lower capital gains taxes hasn't been shown to do anything except make the wealthy wealthier."

Since when is making money bad. It makes no sense that you would want to raise it to allow the government to spend more. Why do the people have to put up with over inflated government spending.

Because the govt makes them think that it's needed. What makes no sense is that the Republicans believe it's only a liberal thing.

Nobody claims that making money is bad. Everyone should make enough to live a decent life. What's important is what you do to make that money. If you are improving the lives of others then that mitigates the sole effect of just having more money. Having too much money relative to everyone else does have detrimental effects on society.

01-26-2012 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter (Post 1728031)
The best part about Mitt is that he only pays 13-15% in taxes. I agree that I cant blame him for just following the tax code, but it doesnt sound like he is too worried about fixing it either.

That's a typical statement from the OWS crowd.

It’s like, instead of lookin’ in the mirror and go, “Why the #($@ am I not doin’ better?” You just find some guy who’s got more #($@ than you and go “Hey man, what do you need all that #($@ for?” - Adam Carolla

The only income tax that is even remotely fair is a straight percentage where EVERYONE pays the same percentage.

psudy 01-26-2012 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter660 (Post 1728042)
Both of my sons (6 & 9) are in Cub scouts, one of the things they had to do was visit a bank and learn about how they work. One of the questions they are supposed to ask is "If I invest $20 today, how much will it be worth when I turn 18?" When the back tells them $20.87 or something close, its a little hard to get them to see the point in investing in anything.

thats because putting money in a bank is called SAVING, NOT INVESTING. Investing involves risk. Your risk tolerence determines your return.

psudy 01-26-2012 8:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728112)
Because the govt makes them think that it's needed. What makes no sense is that the Republicans believe it's only a liberal thing.

Nobody claims that making money is bad. Everyone should make enough to live a decent life. What's important is what you do to make that money. If you are improving the lives of others then that mitigates the sole effect of just having more money. Having too much money relative to everyone else does have detrimental effects on society.

The USSR called. They want their theory back.

norcalrider 01-26-2012 9:01 AM

Capital gains is double taxation in my mind and with 70% of the wealth being controlled by the baby boomers and shift or change in this policy will result in a transfer of wealth from private citizens to the government in upcoming years, that I am not willing to support.

fly135 01-26-2012 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728119)
The USSR called. They want their theory back.

The non-thinking man's out.:p

fly135 01-26-2012 9:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norcalrider (Post 1728126)
Capital gains is double taxation in my mind and with 70% of the wealth being controlled by the baby boomers and shift or change in this policy will result in a transfer of wealth from private citizens to the government in upcoming years, that I am not willing to support.

Every time money passes hands it's double, triple, quadruple, ad infinitum taxed.

Shooter 01-26-2012 9:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728116)
That's a typical statement from the OWS crowd.

It’s like, instead of lookin’ in the mirror and go, “Why the #($@ am I not doin’ better?” You just find some guy who’s got more #($@ than you and go “Hey man, what do you need all that #($@ for?” - Adam Carolla

The only income tax that is even remotely fair is a straight percentage where EVERYONE pays the same percentage.

This shows how narrow minded you and Adam Carolla can be. I'm only looking for fair taxes for all Americans. I look in the mirror every day and I'm happy with what I do and what I make. I never wanted to be rich. I'm just tired of paying a ton in taxes while others get a free ride.

Your right, the only tax that is remotely fair is one that everyone pays the same. Thanks for proving my point.

psudy 01-26-2012 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728134)
The non-thinking man's out.:p

I'm the non thinker when your advocating that everyone should make a "decent" wage and the rest should go to government? Yeah right.

psudy 01-26-2012 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter (Post 1728139)
This shows how narrow minded you and Adam Carolla can be. I'm only looking for fair taxes for all Americans. I look in the mirror every day and I'm happy with what I do and what I make. I never wanted to be rich. I'm just tired of paying a ton in taxes while others get a free ride.

Your right, the only tax that is remotely fair is one that everyone pays the same. Thanks for proving my point.

You fail to see that the reason for lower capital gains tax is it has already been taxed. In order for money to turn into capital, to be retained, or distrubited, it must first be a profit. So the profit is taxed, then the dividend is taxed.

fly135 01-26-2012 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728140)
I'm the non thinker when your advocating that everyone should make a "decent" wage and the rest should go to government? Yeah right.

That isn't what I'm advocating. But I can see that you draw that conclusion because it detracts from the poor quality of your argument.

psudy 01-26-2012 10:30 AM

Poor quality? LMAO. Yeah. We should just keep feeding the government and start demonizing the rich.

wakecumberland 01-26-2012 10:59 AM

Shooter, Did you check to see what your efffective tax rate is via the calculator I linked? Still think you pay double what Romney does?

norcalrider 01-26-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728135)
Every time money passes hands it's double, triple, quadruple, ad infinitum taxed.

Understood but perhaps we should carve out inheritance if the conversation is regarding Capital Gains. With the rhetoric being thrown around on this subject a move to make wholesale changes to capital gains will have a detrimental effect to society. Personally, I would be outraged if a family home, farm or other assets are lost because the taxation on those items prevented surviving family members from keeping assets their parents or relatives worked hard to earn money, that was taxed, and made purchases, that were taxed, and their surviving family who as we know are not as well off as the boomer generation cannot afford it because some radical changes are made to redistribute wealth of Wall Street earnings.

phatboypimp 01-26-2012 1:23 PM

I don't really understand why this has become a huge issue. Capital Gains have been treated differently since WWI. The money used for those investments were taxed multiple times (income and payroll) when they were earned. I am sure you can argue how effective the ROI on those investments are because it is difficult to measure but I would suspect that his investments are diverse but would certainly include a large investment in American companies (which inherently creates jobs).

wakeworld 01-26-2012 1:52 PM

It became a big issue when that toolbag Warren Buffet spouted off about his secretary paying a higher income tax rate than him. Not only was he comparing apples and oranges (investment income vs. regular income, double taxation, et al as explained above), but I have to think that he is pulling a regular salary from Berkshire Hathaway in addition to his investment income. Therefore, a portion of his income is, in fact, subject to regular income taxes that would be at an equal or higher rate than his secretary's. Why aren't any of these news anchors or reporters asking that question?

I'm sure the excuse for Warren's disingenuous argument will be that he has so many lawyers and accountants working for him that he's able to somehow pull a General Electric and pay a lower "effective" rate than his secretary, but that's a different argument than the investment vs. regular income tax rate issue. I will get on board with the fact that Warren, GE or any other person should not be able to whittle down their tax debt to zero because of all the loopholes. I'm fully on board for a simplified tax system with zero loopholes.

phatboypimp 01-26-2012 2:24 PM

I am just amazed at how much time we waste on the small issues when IMO the bigger issue isn't raising another 10-15% on capital gains tax and the real issue is related to our reckless and irresponsible spending habits.

TerryR 01-26-2012 4:19 PM

"zero loopholes"

a part of that debate is that many of the people who scream for zero loopholes are the same ones who incourage the tax breaks that are used to subsidize the green energy movement.

fly135 01-26-2012 4:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728148)
Poor quality? LMAO. Yeah. We should just keep feeding the government and start demonizing the rich.

Yes poor quality. You have to make a lie out of my argument because your argument is poor. Same thing with saying the high earners are demonized because I believe they should pay on a progressive scale. It's bombastic blabber.

I have never claimed that everyone should earn a decent living wage and pay the rest to the govt. What I have done is point out cause and effect factors in the economic system that supports my belief in a progressive tax schedule and a duty to help the poor.

fly135 01-26-2012 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakecumberland (Post 1728156)
Shooter, Did you check to see what your efffective tax rate is via the calculator I linked? Still think you pay double what Romney does?

If he is single and makes around $100K then he probably does pay double.

fly135 01-26-2012 4:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728142)
You fail to see that the reason for lower capital gains tax is it has already been taxed. In order for money to turn into capital, to be retained, or distrubited, it must first be a profit. So the profit is taxed, then the dividend is taxed.

The simple solution to this is to allow the corp to pay taxes on profits after dividend distributions. Once it reaches the hands of the public it should be taxed the same whether investment or earnings. If anything the cost of making money is much higher for the individual who goes to a job vs the individual who's money works for him.

phatboypimp 01-26-2012 6:57 PM

What I don't understand is why people feel that capital gains are only a benefit for the rich. Capital Gains tax advantages apply to everyone. The rich ALREADY pay at a higher income tax rate. It is not as if only rich people invest their money. Under this logic we should eliminate 401K tax advantages to give the government more money. I simply don't understand the logic.

The top 20% of wage earners contribute 80% of the tax revenue.

I don't understand how the cost of money is much higher for the individual who goes to a job vs the individual who's money works for him. There is ZERO risk for the individual going to a job (assuming some constant variables like him keeping his job). There is SIGNIFICANT risk for those who invest in markets.

joeshmoe 01-26-2012 7:14 PM

"Why would you want to discourage investment by "fixing" this situation?"
I don't think raising capital gains tax 5 or 10% is going to discourage investment, you only pay on the profits, we'll call it the Romney Tax!
come on where else is he going to put his money? You cannot even buy property and expect it to increase in value anymore.
I cannot wait until Romney is out of the picture.

psudy 01-27-2012 7:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728258)
Yes poor quality. You have to make a lie out of my argument because your argument is poor. Same thing with saying the high earners are demonized because I believe they should pay on a progressive scale. It's bombastic blabber.

I have never claimed that everyone should earn a decent living wage and pay the rest to the govt. What I have done is point out cause and effect factors in the economic system that supports my belief in a progressive tax schedule and a duty to help the poor.

What was my arguement John? I am curious if you even know.

and not taxing corporations and passing the profits to individuals for taxation is called an S Corp.

fly135 01-27-2012 8:41 AM

You're argument was something totally unrelated to me or anything I'm talking about... "Why do people put up with the govt spending more money"

I'm willing to see severe cuts in govt spending. You don't like what I'm saying that totally unrelated so you reinterpret what I said into totally bombastic BS.

I know what an S corp is. That has nothing to do with anything.

fly135 01-27-2012 8:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728280)
What I don't understand is why people feel that capital gains are only a benefit for the rich. Capital Gains tax advantages apply to everyone.

Jobs benefit everyone too. So just tax capital gains like earnings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728280)
The rich ALREADY pay at a higher income tax rate. It is not as if only rich people invest their money.

Being rich has nothing to do with taxes. We don't tax wealth in most cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728280)
Under this logic we should eliminate 401K tax advantages to give the government more money. I simply don't understand the logic.

401K plans aren't meant to benefit high earners excessively because of limits to contributions. But I'm also fine with eliminating tax deductions for pensions and HI. I've said that many times. It creates a false economy and distorts the free market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728280)
The top 20% of wage earners contribute 80% of the tax revenue.

That's nice. So what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728280)
I don't understand how the cost of money is much higher for the individual who goes to a job vs the individual who's money works for him. There is ZERO risk for the individual going to a job (assuming some constant variables like him keeping his job). There is SIGNIFICANT risk for those who invest in markets.

Going to a job has lots of overhead. Transportation, work clothes, eating away from home, hire other people to do things that you can't do, taking care of children. and.... 15% additional overhead for FICA.

phatboypimp 01-27-2012 9:22 AM

Fly135 - you like to argue in circles. This is pointless. You are insane if you think taxing capital gains is more productive in creating jobs than the reinvestment or spending of those dollars.

Are you serious about not taxing wealth? Wow.

I love this - the top 20% of income earners generate 80% of tax revenue and your answer is....so what? How much of the tax burden do you expect the top 20% to be accountable for?

You should also recognize that the accumulation of wealth through investment markets has a significantly diminished impact on state/federal resources than Joe the plumber.

norcalrider 01-27-2012 9:24 AM

Anyone care to address inheritance as that's an important component of this debate and while you're busy demonizing the rich there are going to be a lot of middle and lower income people affected by these Capital Gains changes everyone is so zealous about.

fly135 01-27-2012 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728393)
Fly135 - you like to argue in circles. This is pointless. You are insane if you think taxing capital gains is more productive in creating jobs than the reinvestment or spending of those dollars.

Translation.... I don't change my position. I'm consistent. You don't change your position. You're arguing in circles.:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728393)
Are you serious about not taxing wealth? Wow.

Got a reading comprehension problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728393)
I love this - the top 20% of income earners generate 80% of tax revenue and your answer is....so what? How much of the tax burden do you expect the top 20% to be accountable for?

I'm in the top 20% and don't feel overburdened by taxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatboypimp (Post 1728393)
You should also recognize that the accumulation of wealth through investment markets has a significantly diminished impact on state/federal resources than Joe the plumber.

Cannot parse.

Mik, I have no problem with estate taxes. If the children can't learn to make a living then they don't need to get rich off of daddy charity. Money changing hands gets taxed. If you don't want a business to die then start planning.

Besides since corps are people now we need to kill them at the age of 80 and pay estate taxes to the govt. LOL, that's sarcasm BTW.

norcalrider 01-27-2012 9:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728401)
Mik, I have no problem with estate taxes. If the children can't learn to make a living then they don't need to get rich off of daddy charity. Money changing hands gets taxed. If you don't want a business to die then start planning.

Besides since corps are people now we need to kill them at the age of 80 and pay estate taxes to the govt. LOL, that's sarcasm BTW.

So take the family farm, or family house because the land value may have appreciated to a point that it is impossible for a middle income family or a young family to pay taxes on. I think that's BS, in no uncertain terms.

This isn't about businesses or corporations but families. Why not carve out families in this converstaion? Families shouldn't be taxed for losing someone.

fly135 01-27-2012 9:44 AM

If they don't want to be taxed because the owner dies then they need to plan ahead and work it out. I see no reason for a family line to accumulate wealth untaxed for a infinite number of generations. The world belongs to future generations. I have no problem with a person losing rights to their property after they are dead. We have exemptions for estate taxes. I'm not claiming those exemptions are exactly the right amount, but I disagree with passing all wealth down a family line no matter how much it is.

psudy 01-27-2012 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728374)
You're argument was something totally unrelated to me or anything I'm talking about... "Why do people put up with the govt spending more money"

I'm willing to see severe cuts in govt spending. You don't like what I'm saying that totally unrelated so you reinterpret what I said into totally bombastic BS.

I know what an S corp is. That has nothing to do with anything.

My point was, everyone is looking for ways to take more tax dollars in via, higher capital gains tax, higher corp taxes, Higher taxes on the rich, etc....Its a good smoke and mirror game. Distract and confuse , while the government grows and grows. We are asking the wrong questions.

I don't care how anyone tries to spin it, but raising CG tax will hurt investment, because people will get less money to invest.

fly135 01-27-2012 10:56 AM

So what if people who earn large amounts have less money to invest? If you tax earnings people have less money to invest. It's still smoke and mirrors. Where do you think the money is going to go? Into a black hole? It's either spent or invested. BTW, if you answered Black Hole, then you might see another important point that is ignored that I am always bringing up.

It's not like capital gains tax is the only issue on my plate. I talk about cutting the budget of numerous govt agencies all the time.

psudy 01-27-2012 11:43 AM

Earnings are not capital. So lets say capital gains is increased to 28% and ten years from now our government is still broke. Do we raise it again? Are you still going to be ok with government fleecing its citizens when it takes 60,80% of that capital out of production?

cadunkle 01-27-2012 1:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728116)
The only income tax that is even remotely fair is a straight percentage where EVERYONE pays the same percentage.

I respectfully disagree. The only income tax that is fair is a fixed amount divided evenly over every person in this country. At 2010 spending levels this is $11,504.62 from each person. This is fair. Let's play with those numbers a bit more and eliminate all the big ticket entitlement and redistribution scams. The tax burden for each individual drops to $4,417.88. There is still a lot of room to cut that to half or less. Regardless, this is the only fair tax system. A benefit is it encourages people to care about government size, scope, and spending.

fly135 01-27-2012 1:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728437)
Earnings are not capital.

No, earnings aren't capital gains. I think you're getting confused. Earning can be capital if you invest them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728437)
So lets say capital gains is increased to 28% and ten years from now our government is still broke. Do we raise it again? Are you still going to be ok with government fleecing its citizens when it takes 60,80% of that capital out of production?

Again you are confused. Taxing capital gains as earnings has nothing to do with how much tax the govt requires.

fly135 01-27-2012 1:20 PM

Cory, you can forget about "fair". Fair is like art, it's different in everyone's mind depending on what factors you use to draw a conclusion.

norcalrider 01-27-2012 1:53 PM

Interesting opinion piece in the WSJ: Lesson's from the Great Expansion

psudy 01-27-2012 1:56 PM

I left out "gains" after capital.

If you can't figure out the second part, I can't help you.

fly135 01-27-2012 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728478)
If you can't figure out the second part, I can't help you.

I can't imagine you helping me with much. No matter how much I address the second part you manage to either ignore it or can't figure out what I mean when I say I'm all about cutting the size of govt.:rolleyes:

fly135 01-27-2012 3:04 PM

Paul, let me say something else regarding Obama. What I object to is blasting Obama for the size of govt and increasing govt debt while continuing to support the Republican party that does the same thing. If you want to cut govt spending you are going to need to support someone with radical attitude. The problem with guys like you is that you simply want to pretend you are about cutting spending, or believe that simply cutting welfare and SS is the remedy.

I am about really cutting govt spending. That means huge cuts in all the departments.. In addition, I am for significantly cutting back on regulation, tax deductions and exemptions for all things including HI and pensions. I'm not a Libertarian because I don't believe in every man for himself. And I believe in a progressive tax schedule. I also believe that the trade deficit is a threat to our national security.

I consider the impact of policy beyond the most obvious. That's why I say things like... tax deductible HI payments have overinflated up the cost of healthcare and distorted the free market. And since the govt has implemented policy that has driven up healthcare costs while strictly controlling the who provides healthcare it's created an obligation to provide healthcare to those who can't afford it.

So who's your radical? Gingrich? Romney?

Laker1234 01-27-2012 7:42 PM

"trade deficit is a threat to our national security" and our growing deficit is not helping either. Running the Federal Gov. is like trying to heat your house in the winter with the windows open. No matter who is controlling the thermostat, nothing is going to be accomplished until the windows are closed.

psudy 01-30-2012 8:01 AM

You figured out a lot about me from one thread where I was against increasing capital gains taxes. You are missing my point that if we continue to allow government to just raise taxes when ever they want because they cannot operate within a budget, pretty soon we are going to be working for half our income. It appears some on here wouldn't care as long as it is hitting the rich. Capital is vital to the economy. Taxing it and removing more from the hands of the people that put it to work is a dumb idea, especially with such a volatile economy. Do all rich people put it to work? No of course not. But lets not forget, small business is the backbone of our country.

I also, don't blame Obama solely for what our government has become, but he has done nothing to help. I don't like what the Republican party has become especially since the Teaparty has come about. Quacks like backman have given us a bad name and have lead everyone to believe all Republicans are conservative bible beaters. I can assure you I am neither.

I also consider the impact of policy beyond the most obvious, but I am not going to sit here and chart out the national impact of certain tax policies for you to read.That said, you seem to assume that I remember/ care what you say in other threads. I can assure you that I don't.

Who's your radical? Obama?

fly135 01-30-2012 8:51 AM

Paul, I didn't know this was the first politcal thread you've participated in. However, you know me from what I write here to know that my opinions about what's wrong with the economy are not being addressed by anyone. Ron Paul would be the closest to a radical. So the question remains... who's your radical?

You are outraged about raising taxes to pay our bills, but he real question is what expenses do you want to cut, and who do you expect to do it? Otherwise you've got nothing but faux outrage over raising taxes. Do you express outrage in your home about paying the bills, but do nothing to stop the spending? So what spending do you cut? Tax cuts are not going to bring the economy back. That's a pipe dream that's been demonstrated wrong.

I'd rather see Obama in office again than anyone the phony conservatives are supporting. If my only choice is between spending making war or helping people in this country, then I'll take helping people. That's because I know the money helping people is spent domestically. If we do something about the trade deficit then it will stay in the domestic economy. The principals are clear. Just like RonT said.... we live in a leaky house. There is no solution other than to print more money and incur more debt until the leak is sealed.

psudy 01-30-2012 9:19 AM

I never said it was. You are trying to put words in my mouth again. My previous post was clear.

Outraged? Faux outrage? Again.... There are plenty of no brain reductions that can be made. Military being the first.

Show me were I said anything about lowering taxes?

and the question does remain. How high would taxes have to get before you start saying enough?

Given the current field of candidates, I would vote for Romney, basically because it isn't Obama and at least he can follow money through an income statement.

fly135 01-30-2012 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728812)
and the question does remain. How high would taxes have to get before you start saying enough?

I think that's pretty obvious. It's the same answer for everyone who has to match spending with revenue... when the budget is balanced. I would expect at some point people will be outraged about high taxes to finally make some real demands on govt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1728812)
Given the current field of candidates, I would vote for Romney, basically because it isn't Obama and at least he can follow money through an income statement.

I'll vote for Obama because Romney thinks 15% capital gains tax is fine because it benefits the rich the most.

01-30-2012 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728829)
I think that's pretty obvious. It's the same answer for everyone who has to match spending with revenue... when the budget is balanced. I would expect at some point people will be outraged about high taxes to finally make some real demands on govt.

I'll vote for Obama because Romney thinks 15% capital gains tax is fine because it benefits the rich the most.

What about spending?

01-30-2012 10:43 AM

What about freedom?

01-30-2012 10:44 AM

What about the right to succeed?

01-30-2012 10:45 AM

What about the right to fail?

01-30-2012 10:45 AM

What about self accountability?

fly135 01-30-2012 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728836)
What about spending?

I addressed that a couple posts up...

Quote:

I am about really cutting govt spending. That means huge cuts in all the departments.. In addition, I am for significantly cutting back on regulation, tax deductions and exemptions for all things including HI and pensions.

01-30-2012 11:16 AM

Some people here fail to recognize the values that this country was based on.

They think others success should pay for others failure.

They think that government has a right to the fruits of our labor and risk.

They think everything should be fair.

They think that because some families plan for the next generation and pass wealth on to them, that those families should be penalized.

They think that because some people take responsibility for themselves, become educated (often with huge personal expense), get good jobs, and are able to succeed in life, even when their old jobs get shipped over seas, that these people should carry the rest.

They think that the government can and should make decisions for me because I am unable to do so for myself.

These people are the do nothing crowd. Instead of working hard, planning for their future, their kids future, etc.. they sit around on their butts, they complain that things aren't fair, they take from those that do, and try to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator.

I hope these people are ready for what lies ahead, because we are. These people don't know history, let alone remember it, they are destined to repeat it.

The ideals espoused in this thread have never worked anywhere, at any time in history. They have started wars and resulted in the fall of once great nations. They have resulted in mass genocide numerous times in history. This thread represents two things:

JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE

01-30-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728841)
I addressed that a couple posts up...

as I said before:

JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE!

Quote:

I'll vote for Obama because Romney thinks 15% capital gains tax is fine because it benefits the rich the most.
If you think Obama is going to cut spending you prove my assertion!!

fly135 01-30-2012 11:42 AM

Sam, are you just willfully ignorant, or so consumed with your own beliefs that you can't understand anything that doesn't match up precisely?

1) I don't think Obama is going to cut spending. Nor have I ever said that. Assertion not proven.
2) I don't think people who pay capital gains tax should pay a different rate than earners.
3) This country wasn't built on "values" that involve undermining the security of the country by running a huge deficit economy.

And BTW nothing you have ever said has worked in history.

wake77 01-30-2012 11:52 AM

"This thread represents two things:

JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE"

I agree 100%.

Seems like a lot of people on here are jealous of the poor for receiving welfare benefits.
Seems like a lot of people on here are ignorant when it comes to reducing the defecit.

psudy 01-30-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wake77 (Post 1728855)
"This thread represents two things:

JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE"

I agree 100%.

Seems like a lot of people on here are jealous of the poor for receiving welfare benefits.
Seems like a lot of people on here are ignorant when it comes to reducing the defecit.

Jealous? Lol. I bet you think different when you get out of school and start paying taxes.

01-30-2012 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1728853)
Sam, are you just willfully ignorant, or so consumed with your own beliefs that you can't understand anything that doesn't match up precisely?

1) I don't think Obama is going to cut spending. Nor have I ever said that. Assertion not proven.
2) I don't think people who pay capital gains tax should pay a different rate than earners.
3) This country wasn't built on "values" that involve undermining the security of the country by running a huge deficit economy.

And BTW nothing you have ever said has worked in history.

No

1. You are the one who said that you would vote for Obama, which would further worsen the situation.
Quote:

I'll vote for Obama because Romney thinks 15% capital gains tax is fine because it benefits the rich the most.
2. They already paid the same rate when they made the original money that they invested. Somehow, you think it is a good idea to tax investors twice. What you fail to understand is that the money they invest is at risk and that they could lose it all.
3. I will agree with you on the deficit; however, mass spending cuts have to come first. We should actually follow the Constitution AND its meaning. We shouldn't be subsidizing everyone and everything.

The basis for this thread is that someone has, while someone else doesn't, and they are complaining about it. The ideals that you, and others here, seem to be espousing are those of social justice and legislating to the lowest common denominator. I don't know if you are purposefully espousing these ideals or not, but without clarification, they represent nothing but JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE!.

With statements like this,

Quote:

I'll vote for Obama because Romney thinks 15% capital gains tax is fine because it benefits the rich the most.
people here don't know what you stand for or what you mean. Others perceive your ideas for what they seem, and parrot them back,

Quote:

"This thread represents two things:

JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE"

I agree 100%.

Seems like a lot of people on here are jealous of the poor for receiving welfare benefits.
Seems like a lot of people on here are ignorant when it comes to reducing the defecit.
showing nothing but JEALOUSY and IGNORANCE!

Because you can't effectively communicate your ideals, you give people the wrong impression. When someone calls you out on the ideals that you seem to be communicating, you call foul and say that is not what you believe - you do it in every thread. Before you know it, some young fool is parroting back what they think the cool old guy is saying.

IMO opinion, I think you actually believe in what you seem to be communicating and don't have the ability to justify your opinion when someone calls you out on it. Instead of defending your position, you change the subject, divert, or do anything else so that you don't have to defend your position. You will often pick one part of someone's post to attack, instead of attacking the idea behind the entire post. By doing this, you divert the context of the argument from your unjustifiable position and on to one little part of the greater argument. You may not know you are doing it, but you do. See how above you are accused of arguing in a circle arguments? People with this mindset shouldn't feel bad though, because no justification for the argument exists and history shows this.

wake77 01-30-2012 3:55 PM

"Jealous? Lol. I bet you think different when you get out of school and start paying taxes."

Been out of school for awhile. Pardon me for not staying up to date on my Wakeworld status. It also probably doesn't have my current board, binding, etc. I have been paying taxes for awhile. I went to the Navy after high school and worked in management for several years before I went to school. I didn't think different then and I don't think different now. If you want to know where I am in life, ask instead of just reading a profile.

"1. You are the one who said that you would vote for Obama, which would further worsen the situation."

Didn't you say the same thing a bit ago? You said you would vote for Obama over Romney or Gingrich, right? Are you flipflopping on that?

phideltcraiger 01-30-2012 5:26 PM

As an actual certified tax professional, I am shocked at how a person's political views skew their understanding of the tax code.

fly135 01-30-2012 5:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728868)
No

1. You are the one who said that you would vote for Obama, which would further worsen the situation.

IMO voting for Romney would worsen the situation. If RP becomes the nominee then we'll probably vote for the same person. Not counting on it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728868)
2. They already paid the same rate when they made the original money that they invested. Somehow, you think it is a good idea to tax investors twice. What you fail to understand is that the money they invest is at risk and that they could lose it all.

Well if you invest money you earned then you are taxed again on the earning. So your logic is completely invalid.

So what if they could lose it all. Don't take the risk and put your money in a shoebox. But that won't happen because people want to make money. That's no reason for the govt to give welfare to investors. The stock market already has it's welfare in the form of pension plans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIngram (Post 1728868)
3. I will agree with you on the deficit; however, mass spending cuts have to come first. We should actually follow the Constitution AND its meaning. We shouldn't be subsidizing everyone and everything.

Massive spending cuts and changes in tax policy.

fly135 01-30-2012 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phideltcraiger (Post 1728923)
As an actual certified tax professional, I am shocked at how a person's political views skew their understanding of the tax code.

As a certified tax professional I'm sure you are shocked anytime the govt doesn't give your occupation some welfare in the form of tax break.:rolleyes:

joeshmoe 01-30-2012 7:00 PM

I would vote for Vermin before I'd vote for Romney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFXXAuDK1Ao
15 million people out of work and he calls them jealous and ignorant!

Shooter 01-30-2012 7:51 PM

http://m.yahoo.com/w/ygo-frontpage/l...en&.tsrc=yahoo


"Capital gains: how the rich get richer Why does billionaire Warren Buffett pay less income tax than his secretary?
Two words: capital gains.
Long-term capital gains, which derive from the sale of investments such as stocks and bonds held for more than a year, are taxed at 15 percent. That's well below the 35 percent maximum tax rate on ordinary income such as wages.
The preferential tax treatment of capital gains is widely viewed as regressive because the rich, who derive a disproportionate share of their income from capital gains, pay less than half of the tax rate on that income compared to middle-class wage earners.
"Capital gains are highly concentrated," says Rebecca Wilkins, senior counsel for Citizens for Tax Justice. "Most of the capital gains are earned by folks in the top 10 percent, and it's even concentrated more than that. So the capital gains tax break, which is a 20 percentage-point difference in the amount of tax that is paid on those, is going almost all to the top 5 percent."
In fact, Americans with an annual income of $1 million or more, or 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, enjoy 70 percent of the capital gains benefit, says Hanlon.
The favorable capital gains rate is expected to save the wealthy (and cost Uncle Sam) $38.5 billion for fiscal 2012, according to the Office of Management and Budget."


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