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jarrod 11-08-2011 1:33 PM

Home Defense Weapons
 
I thought I would seek some advice for a home defense weapon for my wife.

Anyone own or shoot a S&W 442 or comparable compact 38 revolver? I like this gun for it's simplicity. Seems easy to operate. Little room for error. It's a proven S&W product. No safety, no hammer, simple.

The downfall.......double action only means a firm trigger pull = greater inaccuracy, for a gun that is already only good for extremely close encounters. I'm worried about it having a harsh kick for her also.

I have considered semi-autos, but I worry about them being overly complicated initially. Maybe she could switch to one later on?

brett33 11-08-2011 2:02 PM

If she is taking her CHL have her qualify with a semi. That way she will be able to carry both a semi or revolver legally. If she qualifies with a revolver, that's all she can legally carry.

As far as the gun you mentioned.. I have the S&W 642 airweight (very similar to the 442) that my girl carries in her car. She's a little 100lb chick and handles the gun with no problem. Just make sure to take her to the range and get her familiar with operating and firing the weapon. As far as range, depending on a few variables i would say the gun works fantastic and shoots decently accurate (body size pattern) at a 10 yards. Downfalls.. the trigger pull is long and heavy, the sights are difficult to use (recommend a laser grip) and reloading time is much slower than a semi.

If looking at a semi, for a woman i would say a .380 is a good place to start.

magic 11-08-2011 2:11 PM

Wife and I have been going back and forth on this too. Besides the get a shot gun message... we do have a Ruger LCP (.380 Auto) that she uses. I carry it at times too, its so small you forget about it.

She does not like the pull and fit of the LCP. I find it fine and pretty accurate in short distances. She's been shooting revolvers and leaning towards a .38/.357 revolver. Trigger pull is easier for her and she is a lot more accurate with them. Have not settled on a make/model yet. Maybe for Christmas ;)

My wife does like some compact automatics we've tried, but for simple and easy to use a revolver seems to be the winner.

jason_ssr 11-08-2011 6:41 PM

The lame cliche answer is the one that rings true: find the one that feels good and she is proficient with. I love the lil .380's form and function, but I find them hard to be consistent with at the calmness of the range. I doubt I could hit the broad side of the barn under duress. Same goes for the snub revolvers. Their light compact frame is great for carry but i find they recoil more. Good carry guns for point blank encounters, but for home defense where you may be shooting from relative distance under duress, a full grip in a caliber she can manage is best practice. I would see if she can be proficient with a 9mm or.40S&W semi. Reasonable capacity and control. Something enjoyable to shoot will also get her to the range more thus becoming more proficient.

jetskiprosx 11-08-2011 7:44 PM

For our first handgun, I wanted something that my wife and I could use without having to remember lots of things. I choose a Glock for it's simplicity and reliability. It was very easy for my wife to get comfortable and used to the Glock because there are no safetys to worry about, no hammer, just basic. My wife knows that if she needs to use it all she has to do is rack the slide back and pull the trigger.

jaegermaster 11-08-2011 8:07 PM

I'll throw my $.02 in. There is a big difference between home defense weapons and carry weapons. Not wanting to get into the big debate about the best carry weapon, like stated above shoot what fits and is comfortable. That could mean a .45 1911 for some and a snubby .38 for others. If you can't comfortable and accurately shoot a particular gun, then you shouldn't consider it for defense.

Personally, I like my compact .45 for carry, it stays in my night stand at night and is accompanied by a 12 gauge pump just in case. My wife can't handle my 3 1/4" barreled .45 so her night stand will soon have a full sized 9mm.

I Hope this helped.

jaegermaster 11-08-2011 8:14 PM

Nauti, is the qualify with a semi/carry a semi a Texas thing? I have both my Idaho and Utah CCW and although I got my Utah with a semi I can carry either. Just wondering.

Also, (not wanting to start anything) but how is a semi-auto overly complicated? Load the magazine, chamber a round and squeeze. Plus...capacity goes a long way in a shooting scenario.

Shooter 11-08-2011 8:30 PM

I agree with Jason. I love my S&W 38 for carry, but do not feel its a good woman / home defense weapon because of its size, kick & limited shots..

.I like my Glock 19...it's small enough for a woman's hand, but large enough to control kick and accuracy. The 9mm also holds those extra rounds so she can afford to drop a few. If you dont have kids, keep it "cocked & locked" so all she needs to do is pull the trigger.

04outback 11-08-2011 8:31 PM

Have you considered Taurus Judge or sw governor?
Only reason I suggest is ability to shoot bigger pattern with new personal defense buckshots.

Look up this new company Heizer. http://heizerfirearms.com
They are in final development. Played with protos last week @ NASGW show in Reno.

Spend some time in a good shop and try many options.
Grip size length of pull trigger weight all important.

Also, look for training. My staff went to a Gander Mountain Basic Handgun training. Very informative!

diamonddad 11-08-2011 10:21 PM

On the subject of guns, not that I own one (shotgun), I have gained a greater interest in all guns and I rather enjoy the show "American Guns" on Discovery Channel.

barry 11-09-2011 12:10 AM

A handgun is, at best, marginally effective at stopping a determined adversary. Blunt force trauma(think bat, hammer, etc.) is faaaaar more effective than any practical handgun caliber. Handguns really only fill a void in practical self-defense- we can't carry a shotgun or a rifle.
Seek the most effective tool for the job and conditions. If you're looking for effective home defense it makes zero sense to employ a handgun, just as it's not practical to carry a shotgun for personal protection.
I love your thinking for personal protection, small, uncomplicated, reliable. The 442 is a great little revolver.
The largest caliber shotgun she's willing to shoot regularly for the house. Anything else and you're crippling her chances at effectively stopping a determined adversary.

brett33 11-09-2011 5:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaegermaster (Post 1717269)
Nauti, is the qualify with a semi/carry a semi a Texas thing? I have both my Idaho and Utah CCW and although I got my Utah with a semi I can carry either. Just wondering..

I think you misread my post. In Texas, if you qualify with a revolver you are only legal to carry a revolver. If you qualify with a semi, you are legal to carry either a revolver or semi.

I had my girl qualify with a full size 9mm semi for this sole reason. I knew, more than likely I wasn't going to let her carry a semi right off the bat, but wanted the option for her to later down the road without having to re-qualify. Shooting a semi in a frantic "do or die" situation can be troublesome for people who have not spent ample time at the range becoming familiar with their weapon. This is exactly why my girl carries the hammerless, 5 round, S&W 642. Simplicity. I know that if something happens and she has to use it... freaked out or not, she can operate it quickly and easily without risking a possible "jam situation". Let's face it, a revolver just isn't going to jam. Therefore, that's what I want in her hand.

RedRum 11-09-2011 6:47 AM

A glock 23 sits in our house for home defense at all times, but when I am gone I leave a 21" barrelled 870 Super mag with (1) 3" with #2 and (2) 3" #4 for the wife. A lot less room for error in missing your target with a shotgun, and NOTHING is more intimidating to an intruder than hearing a pump shotgun rack one into the hole!

jarrod 11-09-2011 8:12 AM

Hmm. I hadn't thought about the carry vs. home defense thing. I guess the 642 / 442s are designed mostly for carry, and not really for home defense. Maybe something bigger is better. I just bought one of those little vaults that sits in the night stand to keep the gun away from the kids. So whatever it is, it still has to fit in there.

I have considered the Governor and the Taurus. I see one of those in my near future too. Right now I need to make a decision based on what is best for my wife to keep at home while I'm gone. I'm not sure the Taurus would fit in the vault. It can't be a shotgun. Needs to be in the nightstand, in the vault, ready to go.

And I think it would take a pretty brave woman to go at a man (or men) with a bat. I'd bet 99% of women would chose to hide and pray before they confront a intruder with something like a bat. That doesn't sound realistic.

barry 11-09-2011 10:04 AM

It's not realistic, that was my point. Handguns are a compromise because of their ease of use, but you're sacrificing effectiveness.


Quote:

Right now I need to make a decision based on what is best for my wife to keep at home while I'm gone. I'm not sure the Taurus would fit in the vault. It can't be a shotgun. Needs to be in the nightstand, in the vault, ready to go.
Here is your answer: http://www.shotlock.com/Details.asp

A short barreled shotgun and a lock device will be less than the cost of that 442. Please take my advice, you need to re-evaluate your approach. Don't compromise, use the best tool for the job.

jarrod 11-09-2011 10:20 AM

That is interesting. But what would you do, just prop it up against the headboard or night stand? Under the bed? :-) I don't see time for running to the closet to fetch the shotgun. At least, it's not ideal. I'll have to look at those this weekend. That would solve my issue and also let me put the money toward another gun that I want for myself.

Thanks, Barry.

guido 11-09-2011 10:27 AM

There's a ton more to home defense than just having a gun. She needs to know how to use it effectively and where to be in the house. There are entire courses dedicated to this. Knowing where the gun is, how quickly you can get to it and having a plan is all super important if you ever think you need to use the gun.

I would say that a dog and a home alarm is the more effective choice for deterring would be criminals.

Obviously the choices between carry and home defense greatly change the game. For carry you need something you can conceal and easily retreive in a SHTF scenario. For home defense you need something that you can shoot with confidence.

Personally I'd take a Glock 19 for home for a bunch of reasons. 1) the 9mm in a compact has little more kick than a .380 in a snub 2) the Glock doesn't really have a safety. If the chamber is loaded you just have to pull the trigger 3) cost of entry isn't bad and you can run a ton of rounds through one. They're notoriously well constructed.

IMO if you're going to leave a revolver loaded there is not reason not to have a semi auto with a round in the chamber. They are both loaded "hot" guns. Pull the trigger and shoot. Personally I like to have a semi auto with a unloaded chamber for some degree of safety, but that's your choice and I know I'm proficient with chambering a round. Plus a semi gives you, at minimum, 4 more shots than a revolver. 6 shots isn't a lot in a panic situation. Grab a snub revolver at the range and start unloading it in a hurried fashion and tell me how accurate you are.

Just my thoughts.

There's a ton of info on the internet about this. Dig around a bit.

barry 11-09-2011 10:50 AM

Quote:

That is interesting. But what would you do, just prop it up against the headboard or night stand? Under the bed? :-)
I'm in a bit of a different situation than you are. There's one on my side of the bed, one on my wife's side and one next to my daughters bed. My wife and daughter both shoot proficiently, but they still chose a shotgun.
What would I do? I would provide my wife the tool that afforded her the highest likelihood of successfully surviving an adversary. I know it sucks trying to figure out how and where to mount something like a shotgun rack, but if you're serious enough to consider buying something to protect her.. get the best tool for the job!


Quote:

There's a ton more to home defense than just having a gun. She needs to know how to use it effectively and where to be in the house. There are entire courses dedicated to this. Knowing where the gun is, how quickly you can get to it and having a plan is all super important if you ever think you need to use the gun.
^^^ This man knows of what he speaks.

11-09-2011 12:54 PM

For home defense a shotgun is the way to go! Get a Remington 870 and call it good. Heck, get two of them. Put one in the bedroom, and one in the hall closet... All it takes is for the bad guy to hear the slide rack and they usually leave...

As far as the S&W 442 goes, I can't think of a single reason to have an Airweight for home defense gun. Having a lite-weight revolver is mainly for concealed carry purposes, if you are stuck on a .38 revolver I would go with a heavier stainless .357 model like a Ruger SP101 or a S&W 686 and then shoot .38 Special out of it. She will be much, much more comfortable and happier shooting with one of those versus the Airweight. I have and carry daily a M&P 360 either on my ankle, in my cargo pocket, or in my backpack, in addition to my 1911, and can tell you that full power wadcutters are difficult for me to shoot. I'm 6'3" and 224 pounds too..

11-09-2011 1:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guido (Post 1717396)

IMO if you're going to leave a revolver loaded there is not reason not to have a semi auto with a round in the chamber. They are both loaded "hot" guns. Pull the trigger and shoot. Personally I like to have a semi auto with a unloaded chamber for some degree of safety, but that's your choice and I know I'm proficient with chambering a round. Plus a semi gives you, at minimum, 4 more shots than a revolver. 6 shots isn't a lot in a panic situation. Grab a snub revolver at the range and start unloading it in a hurried fashion and tell me how accurate you are.

Really? I personally know two combat veterans who "glocked" themselves in the leg and have never heard of someone doing it with a double action revolver. A double action revolver is also much easier to check if it is loaded or not. Also, IMO, if you are firing more than two shots in your house you have more problems than the run of the mill home invasion. This is why racking the slide on a shotgun works so well. At home I have speed loaders all over the house, so ammo isn't that big of a deal. If you train, train, train and then train some more you won't be in panic mode and possibly shooting a cop or even worse, one of your kids or other family members...

guido 11-09-2011 3:41 PM

Glocked themselves in the leg in a home invasion type situation? That seams like odd gun handling. Let me clarify what I typed and state that I was still speaking of a home invasion scenario. For CC I would probably choose another alternative, however within our county it is all but impossible to get a CC permit, so I've not put a lot of thought into my carry weapon of choice. It'd probably be a melted Sig 229, but I'd have to think about it a bit.

All I was really stating is that if you have a gun around the house and it's loaded you better be ready to shoot it at whatever it's pointed at. I'm not an advocate of a gun for home security, but that depends on your living situation. Typically, minus a dog and a alarm system, by the time an intruder has made their presence known the chances of retrieving a gun and preparing yourself for a combat situation are almost none, and that's with somebody who's trained for that scenario. Having a shotgun (or other gun of choice) in every room significantly improves those chances, but most people don't choose to prepare in this fashion. My guns live in their safe. Mag in well, empty chamber. I figure I've got at least 10 seconds of notice by the time my dog barks and another couple seconds by the time the home alarm goes off. If I make a break for that room and lock the door I should have plenty of time to get my gun and get it chambered, but I wouldn't want to count on my wife to have the presence of mind in a panic situation to get that done. I'd prefer to deter instead of engage a combatant, hence the dog and alarm.

As far as number of rounds available... Who knows. I'd rather have to many, than too few. I'll take that option every day of the week. Assuming, especially with a wife that doesn't shoot weekly, that the first couple rounds are going to sail clear of the assailant.

Anyway, when you speak home defense there are a million scenarios. Everyone thinks they're a tough guy till they've been through it. The only guys opinions that I'd truly trust on this would be military or law enforcement guys that have had someone shooting at them. That, I would imagine, would be a game changer in your strategy.

Sam, I completely agree with you that training is paramount. If you haven't shot thousands of rounds and practiced handling your fire arm in multiple scenarios, then you probably aren't prepared to naturally respond when you need to. Just my thoughts. I spend a fair amount of time shooting lately and I'd still question my ability to respond correctly. I wouldn't even want to put pressure on my wife.

IMO, before you decide on a home defense option I'd say that you need to get your wife to the range and practice a ton. Shoot different guns and get her completely comfortable, then choose a gun for her. Once you've done that, then she needs to put hundreds more rounds down range to get used that guns features and action. Then, maybe consider a course on the subject matter and proceed from there. Once you've completed all that, then she should probably shoot at least once a month to stay on top of things. Buying a gun is only a very small part of the picture. Not a decision to take lightly. It could prove very dangerous to family members, dogs, law enforcement, etc.

11-09-2011 3:54 PM

Yes, both guys that "glocked" themselves were carrying in holsters. One guy had an old holster that pressed on the trigger when he sat down. The other guy leaned over his car hood and somehow shot himself in the leg in the process.

jetskiprosx 11-09-2011 4:13 PM

Barry - How do you secure the shotguns on the bed frames? If I don't have my gun on me, I keep it locked in the safe cause worry that if I don't , I could come home to find an intruder in possession of my gun or to come home to our house burglarized and find out my gun was stolen.

barry 11-09-2011 4:22 PM

I use a system similar to what I posted for Jarrod.

guido 11-09-2011 4:35 PM

Sam, in a carry situation I could see the importance of having a safety of some sort whether as simple as a DA/SA revolver or another type of safety on a semi auto. That said, correct me in I'm wrong, I believe that a Glock is still the most widely carried law enforcement platform for better or worse. Thanks for the link. I guess you could easily argue that in the same scenario a loaded DA revolver could have done the same, even if the DA pull was 10+ lbs. Your body weight leaned over the grip could exert substantial force and the leather in the trigger guard wouldn't have much give.

Anyway... Not a situation I'd want. I know there are guys that carry in the front of their pants, too. That's the last place I'd want a accidental discharge. Directed at my important parts or a femoral artery. Bad news.

Probably not a common issue for law enforcement or military personel that carry in a full (outside the pants) holster.

bear 11-10-2011 11:47 AM

For home defense go with a revolver! Always good to go where mag weapons you need to replace springs now and then or you will have feeding issues eventually. Don't take that risk,

jarrod 11-10-2011 12:42 PM

Thanks for the advice. If I get her a handgun for home defense, I still don't think it wouldn't be a semi. I already have a 9mm and it's nowhere near as simple as the revolver. Sometime it jams, both on the initial round, but sometimes while firing. I would think that no semi-auto is 100% exempt from this.

I agree that practice and training is super important. I just think that removing one or two potential issues from the equation, initially, is a good idea. No mag, no hammer, no slide, just a trigger with a stiff pull.

I am feeling more and more like the two shotguns I already have are a good idea. I have a short barrel pump that hold 6 rounds I think.

barry 11-10-2011 1:11 PM

Quote:

I have a short barrel pump that hold 6 rounds I think.
Problem solved. If you grab a quick release device you will be in good shape and still have money for another firearm. Buy 'em up...as many as you can.

mhunter 11-11-2011 3:25 AM

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/ATT00006.jpg

jason_ssr 11-11-2011 5:37 AM

I've mulled the same choices. Shotgun is always the ideal choice for this application, as Barry said. Its no question in a break-in situation where you get yourself in a safe place and blast anything that comes through the door. But, what if you need to move? My kids room is upstairs, and I think if I hear something that gives me enough cause for concern to grab a gun, Im gonna be on the move. I've always wondered how those with a long gun for home defense would be able to clear the average homes narrow hallways and corners, etc. This is why Ive never discounted the handgun as viable home defense. Maybe my thinking is unrealistic.

I am holding out for the Keltec KSG. Sheduled to hit the market this qtr. It seems to be the ultimate home defense weapon. It is a bullpup shotgun, so it has a very short OAL while still having a 18.5" barrel. Dual tubes hold 14+1 and the tubes are selectable. You could put your shot shell of choice in one tube and slugs in the other. Its pump action so you dont have the failed feed concerns of a semi. From what I understand they are Cali legal.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wLYWrL2vJY...SG_3357web.jpg

11-11-2011 6:54 AM

And jams and misfires like SOB!! I never could get mine to work right... Four times back to Kel-Tec and then to Gunbroker.

Remington 870 Mariner... In a pinch it makes a great club!

11-11-2011 9:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidmx (Post 1717783)
Barry, I agree that a "bigger gun" is always better, especially for stopping a theif...not to mention the racking of a shotgun will likely send a clear and loud message to an intruder that you are serious.

First, you don't use deadly force against a "theif" or a thief unless they are stealing your children or wife. You use deadly force for protecting your life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidmx (Post 1717783)
However my main knocks against long guns for SD in the home are: Little ones (how do you secure the firearm for safety yet allow quick access?), little ones...what if you need to grab one or carry one to safety while providing a defensible position?

You educate the little ones from an early age. You train them and make them aware of what a firearm is and make sure they understand not to touch it. If they know what it is, how it works, etc... they will be less curious. Many quick access lock boxes are available. Mine are biometric and all I have to do is put my hand on the door.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidmx (Post 1717783)
Overall while a shotgun would be ideal I think there are some instances where a handgun is best...something like J-Rod's situation where something operable by one hand (that the owner can include a mounted light as well as a secondary off hand light for illuminating anything the gun isnt pointed at. Overall from one of the possible "worst case scenarios" where there is an intruder in the home and the home owner has the firearm but needs to quickly move to get between an intruder and a child(ren) while providing lighting to clearly see where to move (at night) and maintain firearm safety.

This scenario is all wrong... the light should be mounted on the gun and you should be able to navigate your home in the dark. The light on my 870 is 50 to 850 lumen and can blind and disorientate anyone that it is pointed at. It throws off enough light to light to see all around the house. You want to see and identify anything that you are going to shoot.

I don't know where you are located, but if you are considering getting a firearm for home protection I would highly suggest taking a class from a reputable trainer or school.

guido 11-11-2011 11:03 AM

FWIW to all you AR toting characters... ballistics testing is proving that a .223/5.56 is a very effective CQB or home defense weapon. Running a JHP or soft point round has effective stopping power and a tendency not to over penetrate like a shotgun (with buckshot) or a large caliber hand gun (9mm, .40). Lot's of guys are now choosing a SBR (short barrel rifle) configuration for it's mobility, stopping power and accuracy.

I always figured that the velocity produced by a AR would preclude it from safe use in a populated area. The light weight, high velocity rounds work very well.

Jarrod, how about a pinned 14.5" AR? Leave it loaded. All you have to do is flip the safety (oh, and maybe grab some hearing protection) ;-)

guido 11-11-2011 11:04 AM

Or, better yet.... Talk to Barry about getting some sub-sonic rounds and an upper to match. Absolute stopping power without all the noise. Nice!!!

jarrod 11-11-2011 11:08 AM

I just called my local shop to talk about ordering a S&W Governor. They are illegal in Cali :-( Damn. I was getting all excited!

guido 11-11-2011 11:13 AM

2 Attachment(s)
How about one of these? My preferred light set up. Right above my thumb. Touch for momentary. Click to turn on. Works great for all Zombie scenarios.

Or you can go old school with your home defense.

jason_ssr 11-11-2011 2:15 PM

Quote:

And jams and misfires like SOB!! I never could get mine to work right... Four times back to Kel-Tec and then to Gunbroker.

Thats dissappointing. I didnt know any production models were in the wild yet. Ive only seen those who have the first protos at shooting events, etc. You must have a solid contact. I have an RFB and love it. Wish you would have notified us when you punted it.

04outback 11-11-2011 2:16 PM

Ordered a rock River lower yesterday. The zombie apocalypse defenses / home defense project is beginning!

bear 11-13-2011 10:43 AM

Ok, so here is my opinion, you do not want an AR, or AK or anything with high velocity for home defense. Shot guns, hand guns best for home defense and here is why:
AR and AK or any 223/556 or 7.62 will go straight through your walls and keep going. What I mean is if you shoot, hit or miss it will keep going through your house into the neighbors house or into a room where your family is. You want something with a slower velocity (shotgun, hand gun) that will kill your intruder but not go through wall and hit bystanders. PLEASE keep this in mind!!!
Now for the zombie apocalypse, hell yeah go with the AR's and AK's!!

magic 11-13-2011 12:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=bear;1717949]Ok, so here is my opinion, you do not want an AR, or AK or anything with high velocity for home defense. Shot guns, hand guns best for home defense and here is why:
AR and AK or any 223/556 or 7.62 will go straight through your walls and keep going. What I mean is if you shoot, hit or miss it will keep going through your house into the neighbors house or into a room where your family is. You want something with a slower velocity (shotgun, hand gun) that will kill your intruder but not go through wall and hit bystanders. PLEASE keep this in mind!!!
...[\QUOTE]

Not really

jarrod 11-14-2011 8:36 AM

That chart seems pretty unbelievable. I'm no expert, but I've shot the AR, and the 9 at the same target. The .223 penetrates the target so fast that it never even moves. I can't see it being any different with a warm, soft body.

barry 11-14-2011 10:31 AM

Jarod, the devil is in the details.
That chart is very misleading because there is no such thing as "Typical" with terminal ballistics. The second thing is that is supposedly a 'typical would channel after penetrating interior wall intermediate barrier'. That tidbit of information is sort of irrelevant to the public as it was designed to test law enforcements ability to stop a hiding threat.
An intermediate rifle cartridge will generally fragment pretty violently when finding a tissue-like resistance at full velocity.
Ballistics gel is misleading- the human body is very resistant to hydrostatic deformation/velocity because unlike ballistics gel, it has cell walls, connective tissue, etc holding it together. Without getting needlessly technical, ballistics gel is not a solid indicator how how a projectile will perform, but it's the best we have for some stupid reason.

guido 11-14-2011 11:02 AM

Bear, I made that same assumption incorrectly. While a AR has a very high velocity the projectile is light. Depending on your round of choice (obviously a armor piercing round is different), but a jacketed hollow point or a soft point will fragment quickly on impact and dissipate energy. A 5.56 or .223 is less prone to penetrate exterior walls when fired from a indoor position than a 9mm, .40 or a 12ga with buckshot. Any of these choices will still penetrate interior walls depending on what they hit in the process, so none are "safe" to use indoors if you're worried about someone being in another room.

Barry, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons you were developing that new round was because it had the ability to penetrate things like tempered glass much better than a .223, right?

Olympic Arms has some interesting info on their website about this. Also interesting was a hollow points ability to be filled with drywall causing it to penetrate like a FMJ round.

That said... If you've fired a lot of .223/5.56 and seen what the sonic signature is like, then you'd probably also choose not to use it inside. It's loud. Much more abusive than something like a 7.62X39. Could just be the design of a AR (particularly with a muzzle brake), but you don't want to be anywhere enclosed and firing a AR without some type of hearing protection. Hence the development of sub-sonic and "quiet" rounds and suppressors for AR's.

wakeviolater 11-14-2011 11:30 AM

taurus judge...2 buckshots int he first two chambers...45's in the rest. drop 'um then finish 'um off.

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm

barry 11-14-2011 11:50 AM

Evan, they mentioned that during the development stage, but I don't know. It probably has multiple purposes. They keep me like a mushroom, I just do what I'm told. :)

jarrod 11-14-2011 2:52 PM

Taurus Judge is illegal in California.

jason_ssr 11-14-2011 3:25 PM

I know yall have seen it, but with all the gun porn going on, I have to throw it up. My current zombie forehead reallignment device and home invader panic inducement device:

http://i39.tinypic.com/68evdk.jpg


I pray I never have to use it for home defense. 7.62NATO has a bark as strong as its bite.

So, for you guys who have had formal training in home invasion, do they mention anything about hearing protection? I would think keen hearing would be an asset, so I dont even have protection at the ready. Maybe Im doing it wrong. Ive only had one instance in my adult life that a sound woke me out of my sleep and concerned me enough to grab a gun (window break, high winds, something hit it, was nothing) I didnt even consider protecting my ears. Whats the professional take? They just say being deaf is the least of your worries if you have to discharge a firearm during a home invasion?

mhunter 11-15-2011 5:13 AM

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/ATT00003.jpg

mendo247 11-15-2011 8:39 PM

Run or Shotgun. My buddy is a detective at the Sheriffs dept and he says he is always amazed when he gets a call for a home invasion and he walks in the house, stands in a 10x10 living room and counts twenty casings and not a drop of blood. I imagine even though most of us think we are bad asses with firearms if we really had to go face to face with someone wed be shaking so bad it would be tough to be accurate. Hes also seen young deputies that will fire 15 shots on someone pratically point blamk and have 15 misses, i promise its not as easy as one might think. The best defense is to get your family out of the house PERIOD! No reason to be a tough guy. The only gun i keep out is a purpose built home defense shotgun. I keep in my bedroom bathroom where I could make a stand during an invaison if I couldnt get the gf and dog out. Its easily accessible if I jumped out of bed and needed it quickly but also in a place we could lock acouple doors and call the cops if we couldnt get out for some reason.

diamonddad 11-15-2011 10:16 PM

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I like the wall mounted shotgun concept that Barry posted. I would be all over that if we did not live in a super safe neighborhood with two dogs. I suspect a home invasion at our house is about as likely as winning a $100M lottery.

jason_ssr 11-16-2011 4:55 AM

GD, if you were going to break into a home to grab some valuables, you wouldnt go to some seedy neighborhood. a) their valuables probably arent all that valuable, and b) they live in that environment and are probably armed. You would go to a nice neighborhood where people feel they are safe, most likely are not armed, and are most likely to back down from confrontation over posessions.

I live in a safe neighborhood as well. 3 or so years ago we had 3 houses hit in the same night. they caught the guy and he was from 30+ miles away. He just went for a nice neighborhood in an area he woudlnt be recognized.

I understand the dog defense as an early warning system, but Im not sure I buy it as a reason not to be armed. When I was just out of college, I would occasionally go meet an aquaintance at his appt to go wakeboarding. There were a handful of times I would beat him there and he would just say hop the balcony and go through the sliding door, as it is unlocked. Upon entering, his chocolate lab would go into a violent barking, growling, slobbering rage fit. I would just sit down and make a friendly gesture and the tongue would come out and he would be belly up at my feet in 10 seconds. I dont feel he ever saw me consistently enough to "know me", he was just a friendly dog. I teased my buddy that if anyone ever broke in to take his stuff, his dog would probably help them carry it out! GD, would you say your dogs are similarly friendly?

diamonddad 11-16-2011 10:01 AM

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You make some good points. Maybe I will get a home defense pump shotgun to keep my hunting OU shotgun company.

Yes, my dogs are only useful as a warning system and deterrent. While it would be similarly effective to ignore our boy and sit on the couch, it would take some balls to do it!

Here is Bond:

brett33 11-16-2011 1:54 PM

Jason- Just way too awesome..That holographic FTS is one badass setup! I have something similar on my AR. It's the EOTECH MPO kit w/ 557 holographic and a 3x magnifier. I love it.

jason_ssr 11-16-2011 2:48 PM

Quote:

Jason- Just way too awesome..That holographic FTS is one badass setup! I have something similar on my AR. It's the EOTECH MPO kit w/ 557 holographic and a 3x magnifier. I love it.
Thanks! Yeah, as you know, its hard to beat the Eotech stuff for quick aquisition short and mid range shooting. I bet that setup is great on your AR. I like the RFB because of how short it is. Even with my butt pad extenders its only 29" OAL, and thats with a 18" barrel. Thats SBR size, with long barrel accuracy, and no tax stamp! its truly ambi, as all the controls are on both sides, and it doesnt throw brass. It dribbles them out the front. So, for lefties and reloaders its a dream come true, haha!

brett33 11-17-2011 9:15 AM

I can just imagine what firing that puppy inside your house would sound like!! It would look so ridiculous with a can on it, but that means getting a stamp.. mine wasn't hard to get, just a long drawn out process. Both my 7.62 and 5.56 have titanium suppressors. It makes a huge difference on the 7.62

11-17-2011 2:09 PM

If you guys are around either Arizona or Neveda you can either go to Gunsite Academy or Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, I have memberships at both and think they are both equally very good. If you are in or around Missouri you can take classes from probably one of the best instructors in the country, John Ross. Well worth the investment.

I have my Peltor muffs on my bedroom table, but in a home defense scenario I won't put them on and hopefully won't ever fire. This is one of the many reasons why the shotgun is so effective, when the perpetrator hears the shotgun get racked hopefully they leave. My Blackmouth Cur and Blacklab won't hurt either.

11-17-2011 2:15 PM

I had the target version of the Kel-tec RFB with a heavy 36" barrel and sold it! I thought it was going to be a regular version and not a pre-production thing, or I would have kept it. It had a very strange loud whistle when it was fired. It was accurate, but the action didn't exactly help with accuracy.

jason_ssr 11-17-2011 3:09 PM

Nice! Yeah, I put in for a couple of rimfire cans back in June. Should be seeing them this month. I will prob start paperwork for the 7.62 can after the first of the year.

Sam, you had pre-prod RFB and KSG? Ok, if youre getting funneled pre-prod Keltec and just offloading them, you gonna give me first dibs. Do you have a PMR-30 or RMR-30?

11-17-2011 3:32 PM

My buddies machine shop does some of the pre-production work so we can get good deals on most Kel-tec stuff direct. Apparently they have machine shops all over the country that do small run work. My buddy just does precision grinding and reaming. I have one of the original PMR-30's that still needs to be converted to the new barrel and shroud. The tumbles so bad that at 20 yards the bullets impact up to two feet apart on paper.

jaegermaster 11-17-2011 7:50 PM

So I have a question. This has been stated in a couple of replies in this post

"This is one of the many reasons why the shotgun is so effective, when the perpetrator hears the shotgun get racked hopefully they leave."

While I agree hearing a 12 gauge racked is intimidating, why not have a round in the chamber? Unless you have kids I think it is foolish not to have a round ready to go. I also think it is foolish to carry concealed with an empty chamber. I just think that if the scenario ever arose where you needed to draw your weapon in self defense the last thing you should be thinking about is chambering a round.

11-17-2011 9:12 PM

To each his own I guess... I grew up shooting an 870 though, have taken dozens of classes with one, and taken countless deer with one. My dad traded his issued Mossberg 500 for an 870 after he broke the extractor twice during combat, and used it all through his tour. He carried it with a rope around the butt only, dangling, With an empty chamber. I'll gladly take the time to rack the slide... As Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper always told me in class - slow, steady, deliberate!

I guess you could always drop a shell if you wanted to keep one in the chamber... I'd rather not get into a hurry shooting anyone myself.

jason_ssr 11-18-2011 4:34 AM

Sam, I think you should sell me that POS PMR-30 for $200 and I'll deal with the recall headache. Put that money towards something useful!

mikes 11-18-2011 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaegermaster (Post 1718601)
So I have a question. This has been stated in a couple of replies in this post

"This is one of the many reasons why the shotgun is so effective, when the perpetrator hears the shotgun get racked hopefully they leave."

While I agree hearing a 12 gauge racked is intimidating, why not have a round in the chamber? Unless you have kids I think it is foolish not to have a round ready to go. I also think it is foolish to carry concealed with an empty chamber. I just think that if the scenario ever arose where you needed to draw your weapon in self defense the last thing you should be thinking about is chambering a round.

Valid point. I would assume that in a home defense situation that you would most likely have to obtain such gun from wherever it is, and at that point you could potentially rack it in time to address the emergency, all while possibly alerting intruder that you mean business once he hears the gun chamber a round. However, in a concealed carry situation outside of your home you will most likely never have time to chamber a pistol round and still get the advantage over an attacker. People have the common misconception that you will have time to rack the slide or the physical ability to do so. You are already at a tactical disadvantage because you are the last to know your in a bad situation. Anyone who thinks that it is safe or reasonable to carry a self defense pistol without a chambered round is only fooling themselves. I know some of you guys here are on AR15.com and if you haven't read Blitz308's real life story about being involved in an armed confrontation you should...it is a very interesting read and there is alot that can be taken from it. He was shot in the hand. Kind of hard to rack a slide quickly after that happens . There is nothing unsafe about a round being carried in the chamber if you excercise proper etiquette, including a proper holster. I switch between a Glock19 and an M&P 9c depending on the seasons and carry both in a Supertuck. No way in hell that guns going off in the holster without me pulling the trigger. It also gives you the advantage of 1 extra round, god forbid you should ever need it.
My vote would be for the Remington 870 as well. You can get low recoil defense loads for it as well, which should make it more comfortable for women to operate. An AR is an excellent home defense weapon, but alot more involved in operating than a standard pump gun. Keep it simple.
Hey Evan , your AR mag seems to be a tad short :D. Cali gun laws must drive you guys crazy,lol......

jason_ssr 11-18-2011 4:25 PM

Evan, I really dig that AK! I bet it's a blast to shoot.

04outback 11-19-2011 5:25 PM

Lower came in yesterday afternoon.
Sat down tonight and got this far....
My green fore end, adjustable stock and green grip are due in Monday so I'll finish up then. Thanks to an instructional vid on YouTube this was an easy project. A little concerned that in the middle I was thinking through my next build! Drug?

Updates later in the week.
http://img.tapatalk.com/4a43855a-56e0-a637.jpg

guido 11-20-2011 2:17 PM

Nice Brad!! Congrats.

Jason, it's a blast. I took it out this weekend camping with us. It's a pretty fun gun. It makes a nice big bang, but for some reason the sound is really tolerable. Right now it's got a scope rail and a red dot along with a re-coil pad/extension on the butt stock. I could shoot it all day. At about 150 yards you could make the small propane cans dance, 1 shot after another. I think I might have converted a few more people to the dark side, too. Everyone seems to love that gun.

Jarrod got a new toy this weekend, too. Maybe he'll post some pics.

jason_ssr 11-20-2011 6:37 PM

Quote:

I think I might have converted a few more people to the dark side, too. Everyone seems to love that gun.
I bet you see many more converts. They have a stigma of being inferior, but the reason the rest of the world still uses them is because they are so easy to shoot well, reliable, and accurate for a battle rifle.

04outback 11-21-2011 3:57 PM

Making progress!
http://img.tapatalk.com/4a43855a-e52e-356e.jpg
Anyone have tips on taking off front handguard?

mikes 11-21-2011 5:56 PM

Delta ring tool. Should be able to pick one up for under $20. You should be able to wrestle it off by hand but that may require an extra pair of hands to swap out the guard while you pull down on the ring.

jarrod 11-22-2011 10:14 AM

My father in law just kicked me down his Chinese SKS this last weekend. Not a home defense weapon, but I'm stoked to have a rifle. It shoots the same rounds as the AK47. I like how the gun loads (from the top with strips). I don't think it's a very sexy looking gun but it satisfies the urge for now.

kellen 11-22-2011 10:23 AM

Brad, just have some one hold the gun and pull down on the lower ring with 2 hands and it should come off. look on youtube.

guido 11-22-2011 10:30 AM

Delta ring tool makes it a one man job, but you can do it by hand. Pro-Mag makes a decent on for less than $20. Works just fine.

04outback 11-22-2011 11:52 AM

Thanks all.
Ordered another lower today. I'm addicted

norcalrider 11-22-2011 3:49 PM

Any great deals on lowers? I'm looking for a budget build.

04outback 11-22-2011 6:57 PM

Got my stripped rock river on gunbroker.com for $120. Got the lower parts kit from midwayusa.com
Check nationalgunsupply as they cater to cal parts

guido 11-22-2011 9:56 PM

$79 for a surplus ammo and arms lower. I got 4 from canyon sports in Martinez.

diamonddad 11-22-2011 11:01 PM

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Regarding home defense shotguns, which of these do you guys recommend?

REMINGTON
safety on side allows for the pistol grip.

MOSSBERG
safety on top is best with standard stock.

jon4pres 11-23-2011 4:37 AM

It comes down to preference. Both guns are going to be reliable and do everything you could want for home defense.

I personally am much more comfortable shooting with a stock than not. I would try to make the gun feel as natural as possible. If it comes time to use it and you are going to have so much adrenaline pumping that your mind may not work the way it normally does and the last thing you want to do is come up on some intruder who is also carrying and not be comfortable with your gun. If you shoot a lot and are used to flipping a safety on the side that may be a natural movement to you that you do without thinking and that moment could save your life if you were ever to be in a firefight.

I have shot quite a bit in my life but still do not trust myself in a situation where I would be defending myself. I think there are a lot of people out there that have a self defense weapon that is more likely to get them killed than save their life.

diamonddad 11-23-2011 8:38 AM

Since my 20g OU hunting shotgun has the safety on the top, maybe I should go with a 12g pump home protection shotgun with the safety in the same position. This pushed me toward the mossberg without the pistol grip.

guido 11-23-2011 3:37 PM

That Mossberg is sweet... Heck, they both are. Two solid shotguns.


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