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guido 08-12-2011 10:52 AM

AK-47 anyone?
 
All right.... I think I'm pulling the trigger tonight (figuratively of course) and getting an AK to add to the AR in the stable.

Who's put rounds through one? Any plus' or minus'. I could do another AR instead (I really want a 7.63X39), but thought it'd be fun to have the AK. They're a bit cheaper and are apparently bomb proof. I plan on running thousands of rounds of steel cased russian ammo through it. Something that I wont do to my expensive AR.

So... figuring wakeworld is good for everything I thought I'd see who on here has some experience with these.

08-12-2011 11:13 AM

do it....

grant_west 08-12-2011 11:20 AM

Evan lets see a Picture of your AR. What did it cost your to put together your AR

wakecumberland 08-12-2011 11:36 AM

Im interested in the AR too. Whats a good resource to help sort through all the options out there?

brett33 08-12-2011 11:55 AM

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honestly i'd get a .308

these are my two AR's and .308

here's a couple vids shooting both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLdYvW70C6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnEmg...el_video_title

Gotta love Texas.

08-12-2011 12:48 PM

I have several AK's. I almost married a girl who's parents were from Cambodia. Her dad was actually the PM during the Vietnam war. When I first started dating her we would go to the desert and shoot AK's. Her entire family could strip an completely down and put it back together again in about 2 minutes including the trigger mechanism. I subsequently learned every thing worth knowing about AK's from her family.

What do you want to know about them? Most of the Chinese and Romanian stamped AK's are junk... the barrels are crap and the rifling is often messed up or even subject to galling. Russian made AK's are the best, even more so if it is one of the original milled receiver models versus the later stamped models. You have to find a converted Russian model though since almost all are selective fire. Most of the Bulgarian models are good too, with almost all of them having milled receivers from Russia. The Hungarians are also good too. If you can find a Century Arms semi-auto converted Galil from Israel buy it, it is basically an AK.

Also decide if you want to use single or double stack magazines...

I currently have four AK's; an original Russian model with selective fire from Cambodia (license and stamp required), an Arsenal SA M-7 Classic, a Vepr Dragunov Style Rifle 762 x 54R made in Russia, and a Mini Draco AK-47 Pistol.

Check out the websites above, you really can't go wrong with an AK, if you know what you are looking at. You can still get lots of cheap ammo too..

08-12-2011 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakecumberland (Post 1700804)
Im interested in the AR too. Whats a good resource to help sort through all the options out there?

For a really good step-by-step AR build-up check out my buddy Brian Black's website and blog... They are doing a complete AR build-up. My little cousin is building one by just following the blog.

jason_ssr 08-12-2011 12:58 PM

I would go 7.62 NATO as well. My 7.62 NATO is a Keltec RFB. Its a short bullpup with adjustable gas and uses plentiful FAL mags. You can get cheap brass milsurp FMJs and go shoot all day.

Im going the opposite direction. I recently picked up two .22lr pieces. I got a GSG 1911 and a Savage MKII FV-SR. Stamp should be back for the can by Oct. Cant wait.

guido 08-12-2011 1:00 PM

Nice Brett.....

I'm going to build another AR, also. Maybe I'll get a AR-10 lower and do a .308. Right now they are a bit cost prohibitive. They seem to be about double the price of the 15's. We'll see, though.

Grant, I'll have to take a few pics. Mine is a really basic looking AR. 18" barrel, muzzle brake, A3 flat top upper with removable carry handle. Steel sights. CAR handguard and stock. Looks like a short version of a military M-16. Exactly what I wanted. I spent the extra coin to make it durable. Chrome lined barrel, chrome chamber/bolt and carrier. All in all, I've got a little less than $1k in it. It's are really fun gun. Everyone that shoots it get's a grin on their face.

Adam.... go to ar15.com all the info you need is right there.

I ordered a lot of parts from Model 1. They used to have a rough reputation, but I've seen a few of their guns lately and have been very impressed. My upper that came from them was very nice. I took it all apart and everything was assembled well. I've got about a thousand rounds through it without a hitch.

guido 08-12-2011 1:03 PM

Sam, I think I found a Century Arms. Going to look at it tonight.

guido 08-12-2011 1:36 PM

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Here you go G:

08-12-2011 1:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guido (Post 1700840)
Sam, I think I found a Century Arms. Going to look at it tonight.

Caution! Every Israeli AK type rifle I have seen uses special proprietary magazines. The Israeli AK's are usually not an AK at all, but a strange combination of the Finnish Valmet M62 rifle and the FN Fal rifle. Be very careful about the '70 series Israeli AK variants, most of the were horrible and actually caused many Israeli troops to adopt the M16 of all things. You know if soldiers were trading in their Galil's for M16's that they must have really been bad.

If I was going to go with a .308 I would go with a FN FAL type design. Between Saive, Vervier, and Browning you have one of the best designs ever! But it all depends on what you are going to use it for.

guido 08-12-2011 2:13 PM

Cool.. I think I'd like a straight AK. Preferably a Russian one. There is a shop locally that has a bunch in stock that I can put my hands on and see what I think. They're relatively cheap (sub $600.... I figure there's not much of a way I can lose). It's gotta be CA legal (I'm not into skirting with a felony charge), so that'll limit things a bit.

08-12-2011 2:27 PM

If they are sub $600 they are going to be stamped, not machined, receivers. Stamped receivers are almost equally good as the machined one, with the only exception being in the heavy target rifle. It really doesn't matter except if you are a collector versus a shooter. The milled receiver will go up in value since few are in the US, the stamped version is everywhere!

The top is milled and the bottom stamped. Notice the rivets on the stamped version. The stamped version's barrel may loosen over time, but are very easily fixed or tightened.


guido 08-12-2011 2:45 PM

I'm almost positive that anything I get will be a stamped lower unless I piece one together myself (which probably wont happen).

I'm looking for a shooter, so future value doesn't much matter to me. One day maybe I'll get into some collector firearms. There are so many cool ones out there.

Jason.... One of these days I'll pick up a .22lr. They're so cheap to shoot and a lot of fun. I have a single shot Savage combo rifle (.22lr / .410) that I'vebeen waiting to get back from the repair shop. You could shoot that thing all year for $20. Hahahaha. I'd love to get a Ruger 10-22 Target rifle eventually. It's hard to get away from the bigger bang guns, though. Something about shooting them that's just a blast.

08-12-2011 3:01 PM

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Here is my Volquartsen Ruger. Sorry for the bad picture. I only have two guns with me here at work and this one of them. I have a second barrel with a can for it too. I can hit a dime nailed to a 2x4 ten times in a row at 50 yards all day long with it on a sandbag or backpack. .22LR won't do much, but if I hit you in the eye you will go down...

hatepain 08-12-2011 3:11 PM

Quote:

I only have two guns with me here at work and this one of them
Only? lol

grant_west 08-12-2011 6:46 PM

Evan that's a nice looking set up. I would love to have one Ill check out that websight you posted
Naut210: WOW thats quite the fortress.
Sam: I would expect nothing less from you!

barry 08-12-2011 10:28 PM

Here's a project I've been working on that the gun world will see on the market very soon. HKI produces billet 7076 receivers and uppers for AR-15/AR-10's and well as wet/dry suppressors. I was contracted to dial in a sub-sonic 5.56 cartridge that will run smoothly in a selectfire/full auto AR-15. Here's a quick video of the final cartridge combination on a single fire, dry canned AR-15...
I'll post it running full auto once it gets closer to market.
As a sound reference, listen to the squeak of the chair in comparison to the round itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx5QdauBC4


We did a demo with 511 tactical and military/ law enforcement recently . We'd set-up magazines with 2 standard velocity loads and one sub-sonic. The idea was to let them shoot one standard uncanned, one standard canned and one canned sub-sonic so they can see/feel/hear the difference. We demo'd those things I don't know how many times and every single person did the same thing... no response on the first shot.. a smile as soon as they shot with a can... on the sub-sonic round they shot, turned the rifle sideways, looked at the bolt.. looked at one of us with a puzzled look and handed us the rifle because they thought it misfired. Two guys sort of arguing with me- they were sure it misfired. We had to load up another sub and let them shoot it as proof. Lots of law enforcement and lots of interest in can/ammo combinations.

mendo247 08-14-2011 9:30 PM

Havent really gotten into Ak's. Have a friend who has a few. I just finished an AR build, spent way more than i wanted ofcourse, got the bug once i got started. Its more of a longer range shooter as Ars go. I'm working on something much more compact right now. Looking like i'll have a nice shooter for about $700 if i can avoid all the upgrades. Adding an Ak to the collection would be fun though, heck for $600 you couldnt go wrong.

guido 08-15-2011 8:01 AM

That's what I was thinking.....

Picked up a Russian army surplus AK that was converted by Century arms. It's actually a new gun that hasn't been fired. Basic wood stock. Best guess on production sometime around 1962. Even had a bayonet in the box (just what I need hahahaha).

I'll post pics when I pick it up next week.

They got me for a Glock 19, too. Couldn't resist myself. Good thing I don't have a good gun shop close by.

brett33 08-15-2011 1:25 PM

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haha i'm just glad there are people like me out there! i cant buy a gun without getting talked into buying another.. same story with accessories for my boat! i have to say i was a big Glock guy, but this is my latest, springfield XDM 9mm. been staying away from the gun shop lately, bc the springfield now has the .45 ACP out.. :D

congrats on the buy. post a video trying to saw down a small tree or something. im anxious to see it in action!

psudy 08-15-2011 1:32 PM

" I can hit a dime nailed to a 2x4 ten times in a row at 50 yards all day long with it on a sandbag or backpack"

Alright. Lets see it.

08-15-2011 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psudy (Post 1701483)
" I can hit a dime nailed to a 2x4 ten times in a row at 50 yards all day long with it on a sandbag or backpack"

Alright. Lets see it.

I'll be at the range almost all day tomorrow setting up for Tuesday Night Steel. Come on out! We use to have a running bet going on this very same challenge... I lost about 25% of the time firing two magazines... better shooters probably lost less than 10% of the time, mostly due to bad 22LR ammo not firing. The Volquartsen 22LR's shoot crazy good with the right person behind them... not its just boring...

guido 08-15-2011 3:14 PM

Brett, How do you like the safety on that Springfield? I was checking it out the other night and wasn't sure what I thought of it. I'm sure it's works better in application than how I was imagining it in the store.

I'll have to post vid of the AK. I think I'll have some work cleaning it up and getting it ready to fire before I can get it out. I already ordered 600 rounds of russian steel ammo and two more poly mags. It looked pretty good in the shop, but I've heard that you have to really break them down to get all the 50 year old grease/cosmoline out of them. It's a cheap gun. I already think it's going to cost me money, because I know I'm going to want one with a milled lower. The stamped ones just look like junk next to the milled ones. We'll see.

Sam, I'd like to get a .22 Ruger semi-auto. So cheap to shoot. A lot less bang, but they get the job done. With a barrel that long and a optic. I'm sure you can get some accurate shots down range.

08-15-2011 3:56 PM

If I could get any .22 I would first get a Freedom Arms Model 97 and then any Volquartsen model. Neither are cheap, but both are crazy accurate.

jason_ssr 08-16-2011 6:15 AM

Yeah, I LOVE shooting my RFB, but it gets pricy, and after a couple hundred rounds my shoulder gets a little tender. Its a blast to shoot, and its like having a SBR without the stamp hassle. I have an EXPS2 and a 3X on it, but Im tempted to put something with a little more magnification on to really stretch the 7.62. However, 22lr I can shoot all day for really cheap, and dont feel it. My 1911 is not as precise as the ruger, but still shoots respectable groups. The Savage is a tack driver. My only issue with it is the stock is a little short for a tall fella and the cheek weld is too low with med rings. Im gonna put an adjustable cheek piece and a butt pad extender on it and I will be good to go. Havent owned a bolt gun in forever. Really enjoying it! $20 will get you 1110 rounds!

brett33 08-16-2011 6:40 AM

Evan, i love the safeties on the Springfield. The palm and trigger is where its at. I love it because when the gun is holstered, its just the one fluid movement of drawing and getting your hands set on it. Makes it so much easier in your head just knowing that once you pull you are ready to go. It's also got the ambidextrous mag release, which i thought was a huge plus, as well as the picatinny rail for accessories. I have my CHL and that's the gun i carry everywhere with me, but if i pick up the .45 ACP XDM i might have to reconsider. I mainly like the 9mm because it has the high capacity mag (which is another point on the board for TX) that holds 19+1 in the tube.

guido 08-16-2011 10:29 AM

Cool... Yup, all the fun stuff is a no-go in Cali. No flash suppressors or high-cap mags. We're stuck at 10 rounds, tooled mag releases and semi-auto only.

Oh well. Just so they don't take away the semi-auto centerfires I'll be happy. I know a few states only allow bolt action centerfires. That would suck.

My guns are purely for fun and I'm totally into the mechanical aspect of what makes them work. IMO there isn't much cooler than a AR. I'm glad we can get our hands on them. I'm excited to build a 7.62 when I have some cash to blow. I think I'll go big on that one.

brett33 08-16-2011 10:52 AM

Its amazing the difference in weight between the 5.56 and 7.62 (well mine anyway). I couldn't imagine lugging it around like people do with the 5.56, but the difference in the two is unreal. Mine is an Armalite AR-10 Super S.A.S.S. which weighs about 14lbs without the suppressor. Try shoulder firing that sucker from a standing position and actually try to hit something that's not the size of a car, it's crazy. But the big dog will do 1,000 yards at sub 1" MOA out of the box.

Once you get the AR bug its hard to get rid of, as i'm sure you know. Like you, i love the mechanics of those guns. This was a really helpful diagram of the AR-15 that anyone who owns one should be familiar with.

http://www.ar15products.net/att3.gif

jason_ssr 08-16-2011 11:09 AM

Evan, Im really liking the piston driven adjustable gas. Is your AR adjustable? If not, in your next 7.62 build you should consider it. Its a very cool mechanical aspect that I enjoy messing with. Some of the purists consider it a hassle, but its much cleaner and its nice to dial the recoil down to the least possible amount.

jason_ssr 08-16-2011 2:59 PM

my 7.62 Sorry for the crappy cell pic

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/files/rfbs.jpg

barry 08-16-2011 8:55 PM

I thought people would get a kick out of the suppressed AR video. Weird.

jason_ssr 08-17-2011 4:58 AM

Most people are prob like me and have youtube blocked at work. Do your subs require a certain legnth barrel or a certain twist rate to stabilize? Does it cycle the action? That is pretty darn quiet!!

brett33 08-17-2011 5:22 AM

Barry, thats real quiet!

pierce_bronkite 08-17-2011 8:39 AM

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I love my Spring Field Armory M1A. You dont see these at the firing range too often. Highly accurate but unfortunately dont shoot it much since I do a lot of hunting with my bolt action rifles.

The bottom picture is one of my brother. We are shooting 12 inch steel plates at 400 yards. Pretty cool to hear the "ding" of the bullet hitting the plate after a second or two of squeezing the trigger.

guido 08-17-2011 10:46 AM

Jason... Mine's not adjustable. I'm just learning about these things. I could see where this hobby could take on a life of it's own.

What is your 7.62? That thing is mean looking.

barry 08-17-2011 11:22 AM

Jason,
They're being shot out of a 1:7 since the projectile is moving at just under 1100fps,as I'm sure you know we've sped up the ROT in place of velocity in order to stabilize. We don't notice much velocity variance between 11"-18"(average is under 20FPS). Once you go up to 20" drag becomes an issue and it starts shedding velocity pretty quickly which can be remedied by a propellent adjustment. They will cycle using an adjustable gas block, but the bolt slapping is pretty distinct and considerably louder than the cartridge ignition.

jason_ssr 08-17-2011 11:45 AM

Its a KelTec RFB. I love this thing! 7.62NATO with 18" barrel with 27" OAL due to being a bullpup. It uses metric FAL mags so they are cheap and easy to find. 32 position fully adjustable gas (some adjustable gas rifles have just 3 positions: normal, dirty, and suppressed). Its fully ambi. It does not throw brass. Brass is extracted into a chute above the barrel and they dribble out the front as you empty a clip. This is great for lefties as they arent getting hit in the face with hot brass, and also good for reloaders as you arent chasing brass. It shoots better than I do. Reloaders are getting sub MOA. Those of us shooting with stuff off the shelf or milsurp are seeing anywhere from 1-4 MOA. It eats anything and sends it down range. It seems to shine its brightest with 168gr. stuff.

Yes, this does get legs really quick. Compared to wakeboard boats and MX bikes, its still relatively inexpensive and a ton of fun. ...and your family will fare very well in the event of a zombie appocalypse. LOL

jason_ssr 08-17-2011 12:06 PM

Barry, I just bought my first can (.22lr) in July and Im waiting for the stamp to get back. So, Ive been reading up on the subsonic world\ prudent suppressor use and end up with more questions that answers. My basic question was looking for some guidelines to avoid baffle strikes when experimenting with subsonic stuff off the shelf. Apparently alot of varibales to consider! Thats why I ask, I like to get an idea of what works with what. If I find my experience to be a positive one, I will get a can for the RFB around the first of the year. Dont suppose your cooking up some 7.62 as well?

guido 08-17-2011 12:28 PM

That KelTec is really cool. I think I'll need one of those. LOL!

liquidmx 08-17-2011 12:38 PM

It's cool to see everyone's toys. MattG...I am definitely jealous, haha.

Evan I am totally with you on the mechanics of firearms and the "fun" of building, cleaning, learning, understanding, etc....FYI you can have a regular mag release on an AR...it just has to be "featureless". Here is a link to a nice little flow chart for it. In fact I think it's prudent to keep with your "toys" when you transport as not LEO's are aware of the application of laws and this only helps your case should you get pulled over. (In fact this is helpful for anyone in CA).

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Nauti sounds like you got a real shooter there (I hear that 2 stage match trigger is pretty nice). FYI MOA = Minute of Angle = approx 1 inch group at 100 yards or a 10" grouping at 1000 yards...once you get to distances that far out so many variables come into play its pretty hectic to say the least (do you shoot long range much, if so I am jealous since our 1k range here is open only once a month and is hours away.). Are you reloading or shooting box ammo?

barry 08-17-2011 2:26 PM

Jason,
I would contact the can manufacturer for guidelines and I'm certain they'll have data for baseline subs. What type of system did you end up purchasing? I've never seen a baffle strike in thousands of suppressed rounds. The only way I can see a strike is if the threading on the barrel/suppressor isn't bore-centric and square. For a projectile to leave the crown under/over stabilized causing off-axis rotation enough to baffle strike would have to be pretty extreme. The key is going to be in the threads and how square the can stops once tightened.

I take that back- I did see a baffle strike! Heh! HKI was torture testing a SS/aluminum suppressor. Tom ran magazine after magazine through the select fire weapon...the dissimilar metals expanded at a different rate(we're 90% certain this was the cause) and the can loosened enough to droop- Clank! Shot the entire can about 15 yards!

I can do 7.62...

jason_ssr 08-17-2011 4:37 PM

I bought a stainless\alum, user servicable can that does .22LR/.17HMR from a small 02/07 outside of Houston with a good rep. From what I understand, baffle strikes occur in a properly fitted gun when the bullets exit the muzzle and begin to tumble due to lack of stabilization. As people experiment with subsonics, it is said the velocity, twist, barrel length, and projectile weight play into the stability of the flight. From what I read, the cowboy way is to shoot the subs without the can into paper at close range. Round hole and you are good to go, and keyhole is a concern...obviously. Maybe the KISS method here is the best, however I was looking for something a little more scientific. For example, if the RFB is 1:11.25 and 18", at subsonic speed should I be looking for a particular weight projectile to guarantee stabilization? Am I even looking at this the right way?

I will be using the .22 can on two hosts, a GSG 1911 and a Savage MKII FV-SR. I question whether standard loads will even go supersonic out of the pistol in TX. However they prob would out of the bolt gun and subs would be preferred. I just dont want to get obsessed with the quiet game and ding up baffles.

barry 08-17-2011 7:58 PM

Quote:

if the RFB is 1:11.25 and 18", at subsonic speed should I be looking for a particular weight projectile to guarantee stabilization? Am I even looking at this the right way?
You're looking at it exactly right. The problem is that a projectile designed for a range of between 2200 and 2700fps does weird things at 1050, even the ballistic coefficient changes The next problem is that a projectiles weight isn't dependent upon the twist rate, it's actually bullet length that is the issue. To alter the weight of a projectile we can only increase/decrease the length as the diameter is fixed. The theory is that since we're reducing velocity we must increase the twist to make up for lost rotation. It would be nice if it were linear- half the velocity, twice the twist, not so. If you can provide me with weight, length, BC and caliber I can plug in the numbers for you.

You're far sharper than I am, so I'm fairly certain you already know this stuff; if so, forgive me for rambling.

westsiderippa 08-17-2011 9:14 PM

m-dizzle, i want to add to your point about featureless rifles real quick as this is the only way to use your preban legally possessed hi caps. just remember, never put a hi cap in a bullet buttoned rifle even if it is featureless. if you put a hi cap into a fixed mag configuration you have created an AW. in cali ALWAYS follow the flow chart.

edit: forgot to add i have a laminated copy of the AW flow chart in each one of my rifle cases. AR platform or not and i keep the shotgun flow chart on file also.

westsiderippa 08-17-2011 9:23 PM

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here is a pic of my featureless lower. i am actually a fan of the MMG and really find it fun to shoot.

mc_x15 08-18-2011 5:15 AM

Came accross this deal today. I dont know anything about guns but remembered this thread and thought someone might be able to use this.

Link to discussion thread

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3212634

actual link

http://catalog.classicarms.us/ind...NGSAIGA-AK

Hope someone can use it

jason_ssr 08-18-2011 6:34 AM

LOL, actually just the opposite. While Ive shot my entire life, Ive never given ballistics much of a thought other than bullet drop\flight path and I have never reloaded (though Im becoming more facinated by it). As Ive tried to educate myself while patiently waiting on my first can, the information is overwhelming. So, as an average Joe is perusing the shelves for subsonics it seems he better have a good grasp of what will be stable in each individual application.... or you ding up your expensive semi-irreplaceable can. Therefore, Ive decided in recent weeks to really get an understanding of these variables or at least a somewhat workable knowledge so I dont make a bonehead mistake.

brett33 08-18-2011 7:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidmx (Post 1702175)
Nauti sounds like you got a real shooter there (I hear that 2 stage match trigger is pretty nice). FYI MOA = Minute of Angle = approx 1 inch group at 100 yards or a 10" grouping at 1000 yards...once you get to distances that far out so many variables come into play its pretty hectic to say the least (do you shoot long range much, if so I am jealous since our 1k range here is open only once a month and is hours away.). Are you reloading or shooting box ammo?

Yeah i just re-read what i wrote. Worded it a little wrong. You're right, 1in at 100m and 10in at 1,000. That's right at what our groupings have been with the Armalite using box ammo at 100m. We are reloading 168gr loads in the .308 that have proven to be right at .3 to .5 MOA @100m, which is exceptional.

At my ranch we have a range that is 400m with 4'x4' steel hanging up past it at 600, 800, and 1,000m. Its a blast to get out there and have contests.

For anything over 400m we are using 190gr @ 2600fps reloads, which seem to work awesome.

guido 08-18-2011 10:36 AM

I wish we could go out that far. We've got 50/100m flat. 200 and 250 up hill. There is a 500m target, but you've gotta do some climbing to get to it.

Oh well.... At least we don't have to play by range rules. We're usually the only ones shooting.

I bought my first scope last night. I've always gone after 250 with steel sights. You feel good about just getting on 12" of paper at that range with steel. You can hardly see the target. It's more of a bright spot in the sun than a target. Getting a 2" group at 250 would be awesome. We'll see how it works out.

I'm not sure about this shooting thing being cheap.... Maybe once you're geared up, but there are so many little toys that I want. Plus you can never have too much ammo. Oh well...

barry 08-18-2011 11:25 AM

Jason, I tried sending you a private message, but I'm unable. Shoot me an e-mail when you get a chance.

WastemoreATcomcast.net

jason_ssr 08-18-2011 3:07 PM

sent

brettw 08-18-2011 5:43 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC1O_...e_gdata_player


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