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-   -   1/2 Ton Diesel In the Future (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=785126)

flattirenotube 12-14-2010 11:57 AM

1/2 Ton Diesel In the Future
 
Looks like dodge may be the first to break into the market in the U.S. I know it's just speculation at this point, but can't hurt to dream a little.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-versions.html

*EDIT* - After a little further reading it looks like Ford has a 4.4 planned for European Markets

http://green.autoblog.com/2008/07/23...sel-underhood/

and GM has a 4.5

http://green.autoblog.com/2008/05/06...ty-diesel-v-8/

lifetimewarranty 12-14-2010 4:13 PM

Look at the dates for the GM article. It has been fully developed and tested, and is ready to go..., but evidently there is no market for a 1/2 ton yet...:confused:

bill_airjunky 12-14-2010 4:58 PM

No market for a 1/2 ton diesel in the US? Really?? I would think small diesel vehicles of all kinds would sell as easily in this country as they do overseas. .

jeff359 12-14-2010 6:37 PM

The 1/2 ton diesel unicorn won't appear until the market speaks. We like to think it has, but it hasn't. The energy market and auto manufactures are still in bed. Until we demand a light duty, real pick up that gets a real 25 MPG, it won't change. They still sell us the same crap, because we buy it. If Ford or Chevy gave me a 1/2 ton SUV with a true 7500 towing cap, and could get me that 25 MPG empty, 17 towing at the current $45K they are asking, i'd buy. They can do it, but why? we are stilling buying at current levels.

ilikebeaverandboats 12-14-2010 6:42 PM

the way the economy is, it wouldnt be beneficial financially for them at this time. which is what one of the guys at the ford dealership told me. fords half ton diesel was supposed to be codenamed the "raptor" while the new powerstroke was codenamed the "scorpion"

havent heard anything about the half tons in awhile, but they are all working on them and waiting for the right time to drop them on the market!

flattirenotube 12-14-2010 7:37 PM

I did read the dates on the GM motor. It is a bit depressing, but I wonder what the premium is to go up to the diesel vs the std V8 in a half ton. Like a said before, its nice to dream.

epic1 12-14-2010 8:07 PM

the ford 4.4l "lion" diesel is in use in europe. I think land rover uses it. I would like to see what the ford ecoboost f150s will get in the real world. A diesel would be nice though.

fuzzball147 12-15-2010 4:23 AM

From the sounds of the people testing the new eco-boost, unless you need a 3/4 ton for work purposes, the new towing bar is going to be the eco-boost 6 cyl. It completely shamed both Chevy and Dodge's V-8's in towing tests. This coming from someone who owns 2 Chevy's. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around a V-6 being able to do it but from all the tests the eco-boost in quite the sight to behold.

srock 12-15-2010 6:37 AM

Chey shelved the diesel when the economy tanked and I believe Ford did the same. There is information to that effect published after those 2008 articles.

Perhaps Dodge will beat others to the punch in an effort to sell cars and the others will step up to the plate as well. I want that diesel option in a reasonably sized SUV.

antoddio 12-15-2010 8:14 AM

Spending the week in Thailand here and you can't blink twice without seeing a Toyota diesel Hilux (Tacoma ish) or Fortuner (4runner ish). All with a 3 litre common rail. http://www.toyota.co.th/en/models/Vi...b2009_spec.asp

They are all over the place, there nothing new that has to be developed. Manuf just don't think they could make any money on it in the US I'm sure, especially because diesel is taxed at a higher rate than gasoline in the US - so I have read. If the US reverses the tax policies maybe, but that's unlikely to happen.

epic1 12-15-2010 10:14 AM

I wonder if the epa diesel exhaust systems have something to do with it. I know the exhaust on my tdi jetta is about 10g's worth. That cuts into profit a bit?

jinxton 12-16-2010 4:58 PM

I was in Costa Rica last week and saw a lot of the Toyota Hilux that Todd posted about. Great little trucks. I got a ride back into town with a local in his. Really hard to tell how much these trucks have under the hood when no one goes over 45 mph down there.

hunter660 12-16-2010 7:26 PM

I would have an Acadia in my driveway tomorrow if I could get one with a 4.5L diesel.

brit_rider 12-17-2010 3:09 AM

You literally cannot buy a gas pick-up in the UK. They are ALL diesel. Generally 2.5-3.0 Turbo.

I run a 2.5 Turbo Diesel, Has about 150HP/250ft ;b torque, Pulls anything up to 23ft boats fine and gives me about 30mpg avg. It has a 1 ton bed payload, as most of them here do...

If I drive like a loon I can get down to 22MPG, or if I'm towing I see about 29MPG.

I just don't get why America doesn't have these vehicles??

I can only assume its because the American consumer prefers more power? You'll struggle to see a Pick up here with more than 200HP, but then, if you want a fast car, you don't buy a pick up! European consumers don't seem to tow huge loads regularly enough to warrant a 6.0 with 400+ Ft LB torque :D

hatepain 12-17-2010 11:09 AM

The reasons we don't see the diesel's that we produce and use in Europe is becuase its cost prohibitive here. The engine's are produced over there and paid for with Euro's, with the exchange being so poor it doesn't pencil. Factor in the emission changes and shipping that would have to be changed and its way over budget. We have produced, R&D'd and tested a 1/2 ton diesel here in the states but the emission standards keep changing and the market just doesn't bare it. Your seeing 1/2 tons now that are coming so close to the heavy duty trucks that they are already cutting into their market share let alone dropping a diesel in them. In the 2011 F150 you can get an 11,300 lb towing capacity and a hauling capacity over 3000lbs in a gas truck that gets better than 20mpg on average. If these trucks keep heading down this road there will be no need to drop a diesel in them.

epic1 12-17-2010 4:06 PM

It is also the same difference in motorcycles. American are sit up saddle type, we have long open stretches. Europe(UK) has shorter roads, with twisties. Thus sport style position. I doubt you tow your boat 8 hours each way for vacai in the UK. Us yanks just like giant motors that could up root a house. Thats why UK top gear hates us. Tanner foust is a better host anyways.

brit_rider 12-18-2010 7:34 AM

"It is also the same difference in motorcycles. American are sit up saddle type, we have long open stretches. Europe(UK) has shorter roads, with twisties. Thus sport style position. I doubt you tow your boat 8 hours each way for vacai in the UK. Us yanks just like giant motors that could up root a house. Thats why UK top gear hates us. Tanner foust is a better host anyways. "

I agree with everything there other than the last bit :P

US Top Gear is about as entertaining as listening to an English chap explain the rules of cricket ;)

epic1 12-18-2010 9:28 AM

yeah cricket sucks. british top gear said the lightning is junk. coming from England with its rich history of junk cars means verry little.
I do think it sucks us top gear is just redoing all the british tests(attack helli). AMERICA F#$K YEAH

epic1 12-18-2010 12:59 PM

I should clarify, I love england. They are like our big brother. They brought us up, then we kicked their azz. Then they kicked ours. Now we are homies and bail each other out.

cadunkle 12-18-2010 2:49 PM

I don't see the point, unless you want a short wheelbase truck. Even then a diesel isn't really necessary, because if you've ever towed a heavy load with a short wheelbase you know it's not pleasant. Though if you really wanted one, either get a F-150 SWB and put a 7.3 in it. It's all bolt in.

Only difference in Ford trucks at least between 1/2 ton and 1 ton is springs and axles. Everything else is the same. It's just shy of a bolt in to make a 1/2 ton Ford into a 1 ton Ford. If you need a truck you may as well get a real truck and go 1 ton. If you don't really need a truck but want a truck you'd be fine in a compact truck for occasional hauling.

In the context of here, the fact of the matter is most of the boats we tow are pretty light and could be towed with a full size car. This speaks for itself since many folks here tow with lifted yuppie-trucks and misc. poser vehicles. It is what it is. When you start doing all that stuff to a truck you reduce its towing capacity as well as handling and stopping. Such is life. To each his own, but I don't think there's a market for 1/2 ton diesels. If there is, it's a bolt in deal and there's no reason any of the manufacturers couldn't put the diesels into 1/2 tons for minimal cost. It just doesn't make sense to do so since the 1/2 ton suspension and axles/brakes aren't going to allow you to make the best use of it.

hatepain 12-18-2010 3:20 PM

Quote:

I don't see the point, unless you want a short wheelbase truck. Even then a diesel isn't really necessary, because if you've ever towed a heavy load with a short wheelbase you know it's not pleasant. Though if you really wanted one, either get a F-150 SWB and put a 7.3 in it. It's all bolt in.

Only difference in Ford trucks at least between 1/2 ton and 1 ton is springs and axles. Everything else is the same. It's just shy of a bolt in to make a 1/2 ton Ford into a 1 ton Ford. If you need a truck you may as well get a real truck and go 1 ton. If you don't really need a truck but want a truck you'd be fine in a compact truck for occasional hauling.

None of this is even remotely close to being true.

12-18-2010 3:29 PM

for does have a raptor now. it's basically a production off road vehicle. saw it on top gear recently.

cadunkle 12-18-2010 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatepain (Post 1650620)
None of this is even remotely close to being true.

Then fill me in on how it is, because I'd done 460, 6.9, and 7.3 swaps into 1/2 tons and also 1 ton axle swaps into them. Everything else on these trucks is the same. Newer 1/2 ton trucks have crumble zones, plate them up nicely and problem solved. Other than that, cab, bed, fuel, wiring, frame, etc. is the same. Unless I'm really blind, everything else is the same.

Aside form those facts, towing heavy loads with a short wheel base truck does suck. Ever tried it? It has nothing to do with being a 1/2 ton with a small gasser. Facts of the matter is though, a SWB 1/2 ton or even compact truck is fine to tow most smaller inboards. They're light boats and tow easy. Not exactly something that's gonna yank around a 1/2 ton or even full size car too bad.

cadunkle 12-18-2010 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo (Post 1650621)
for does have a raptor now. it's basically a production off road vehicle. saw it on top gear recently.

I've seen these. Nothing to write home about. Maybe for playing in the desert if you're not into rock crawling, but no good for rocks or mud. Cool trucks, but at the end of the day it amounts to a factory mall crawler.

hatepain 12-18-2010 4:54 PM

Quote:

Then fill me in on how it is, because I'd done 460, 6.9, and 7.3 swaps into 1/2 tons and also 1 ton axle swaps into them. Everything else on these trucks is the same. Newer 1/2 ton trucks have crumble zones, plate them up nicely and problem solved. Other than that, cab, bed, fuel, wiring, frame, etc. is the same. Unless I'm really blind, everything else is the same.
I'm gonna have to see some pictures, you must have them. I don't think you could even fit a 7.3 in the engine bay of the F150 nor the tranny. I also don't think the front suspension would support the weight.

Quote:

I've seen these. Nothing to write home about. Maybe for playing in the desert if you're not into rock crawling, but no good for rocks or mud. Cool trucks, but at the end of the day it amounts to a factory mall crawler.
The Raptor is a baja rig and has succesfully ran and even podiumed in the Baja 1000. Do you really expect a company to make an out of the box rock crawler? They actually do quite well off roading for an out of the box rig.

bawshogg 12-18-2010 6:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadunkle (Post 1650623)
Then fill me in on how it is, because I'd done 460, 6.9, and 7.3 swaps into 1/2 tons and also 1 ton axle swaps into them. Everything else on these trucks is the same. Newer 1/2 ton trucks have crumble zones, plate them up nicely and problem solved. Other than that, cab, bed, fuel, wiring, frame, etc. is the same. Unless I'm really blind, everything else is the same.Aside form those facts, towing heavy loads with a short wheel base truck does suck. Ever tried it? It has nothing to do with being a 1/2 ton with a small gasser. Facts of the matter is though, a SWB 1/2 ton or even compact truck is fine to tow most smaller inboards. They're light boats and tow easy. Not exactly something that's gonna yank around a 1/2 ton or even full size car too bad.

Good call. You are blind. There is a whole lot different on the newer trucks than you think. Just about NOTHING from an F-350 will just "bolt on" the 150 platform. You are talking old technology there bud. They haven't been interchangeable since the mid 90's.

cadunkle 12-18-2010 7:43 PM

Hatenpain, engine bay of F-150 through F-350 is identical. I have pics of at least some 460 swaps if you really want to see. I've done a 460 into a few '78-78' trucks, and more '80-'97 than I can count. 7.3 drops right in these trucks. A couple 6.9/7.3 swaps over the years too. It's all the same bro. Only difference is the coil v. leaf and misc crappy independent front axles vs a Dana 60.

The raptor is a cool truck, but like I said, no good for mud or rocks. In my neck of the woods everything is flat, all we got is mud. Could be a fun desert truck but that's about it. We don't have deserts on the east coast. Truck is pointless here and would be all sorts of stuck and expensive if you tried to use it as a truck. Cool idea, but useless for msot people anywhere, especially on the east coast.

Bawshogg, the new trucks are crap, F-150 through F-350. Some clever gimmick ideas poorly implemented.Friend at work was all excited about his new 2009 junker F-250. First time he hooked that luxobarge up to his camper it crapped out and left him stranded. Give me a 7.3 any day over that new junk. These new trucks aren't even worth seriously considering as a daily driver/tow pig/whatever. I certainly wouldn't trust one to get me to work every day, much less anything more intensive than that.

epic1 12-18-2010 9:38 PM

I call b.s.

bawshogg 12-19-2010 9:07 AM

Wow. I am suprised this guy even bought into the INTERNET thing.

hatepain 12-19-2010 9:09 AM

So funny.

bawshogg 12-19-2010 10:14 AM

Ho kiddin! "JUST GIMME A DOUBLE PUMPER AND A 3/4 RACIN' CAM!

cadunkle 12-20-2010 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bawshogg (Post 1650686)
Ho kiddin! "JUST GIMME A DOUBLE PUMPER AND A 3/4 RACIN' CAM!

Since you seem to be getting a kick out of this... My daily driver has a double pumper and a mild cam, along with ported heads, long tubes, etc.. Boat has a double pumper, and the car a vacuum secondary. All are big blocks. Funny thing is my truck is faster than my car, though I built the truck's engine a bit stouter to tow the boat.

epic1 12-20-2010 5:59 PM

all we want to see is a pic of a 7.3l in a f150. or a 7.3 in Lons H2

bawshogg 12-20-2010 7:43 PM

In a 04 or newer F150 for that matter, "They are all the same". Just weld in some plates for the crumple zones and BANG! It fits. Cory, It is funny. I have run into so many rednecks in my time that think the same way as you. All this technology is crap, the old stuff was the "real" stuff. I would take a newer rig ANY DAY of the week compared to that old garbage. Newer vehicles are soooo much more reliable, better for the enviroment , and they are sooo much more comfortable to drive. Most of the time that train of thought comes along with a lack of understanding about how the new fangled , wizz bang inovations actually work. When you learn how, they can build just as much, if not more reliable, useable power than those old turded out BIG BLOCKS. Ever heard the term. " Passes everything but the gas station"?

epic1 12-20-2010 7:49 PM

bawshogg is a hippi, he said the e word.

bawshogg 12-20-2010 7:55 PM

Not quite a hippy, Just don't enjoy chokin on HC's at a stoplight with my window down.

epic1 12-20-2010 11:04 PM

I got ya, every one knows im the hippi from colo. I am an enviromental science major. dam hippis.

srock 12-21-2010 12:39 PM

I think there is a market for the 1/2 ton diesel. It may not need 650 torque and it could be more efficient than a gasser. We also need diesel in cars as well.

bwake 01-03-2011 5:25 PM

That Hilux that was posted above is one of the most common utes down here in NZ. They have a 3 tonne tow rating and use around 9 liters of diesel per 100kms (60 miles) no idea what that is in gallons and. Plenty of grunt to tow something. Personally i dont quite get the American obsession with requiring a 7 litre engine to tow something as you probably do 5% of the vehicles total use in towing and then have to put up with the thing the rest of the time....

srock 01-04-2011 12:17 PM

I would not call it an obsession I would call it what choosing what the manufacturers have provided. In my opinion we need exactly what you are driving. Maybe someone can explain why we don't get these vehicles, particularly diesel, in our market.

epic1 01-04-2011 12:43 PM

if we stoped buying the huge diesels, they would stop makeing them. They sell what we buy.

01-04-2011 1:29 PM

A Cummins 4BT (the same motor as the 5.9L Inline Six minus two cylinders) would/is a great motor for half ton trucks... Tons of these 4bt conversions are out on the street already...

guido 01-04-2011 3:46 PM

I just traded my 6.0 PSD for a 4.4 Land Rover because I finally decided that the F250 was overkill. Yeah, the small truck will tow a boat, but it wont do it with the same ease as the big truck. For me it was just about being tired of driving a monster around daily. When the new F150 comes out with the eco-boost it'll probably be really hard for me to pass up.

As for the new trucks being crap... Those 6.0's that got such a bad reputation are nice motors surrounded with a really nice truck. Maybe the early ones had issues, but my '06 left the dealer and never went back for anything in 70k miles. That truck saw it all, too. Super heavy snow, deep mud, some heavy uphill towing, but mainly lots of climbing in/out of the mountains. All the while it averaged 16.6 MPG over the life of the truck. I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

A 1/2 ton diesel would be nice, but like Hate said, the eco-boost is pushing solidly into it's territory. Gas motors are bada$$ these days, too. They could twin turbo a V8 and get very similar HP/torque/economy numbers to what the diesels are turning out. Heck, the Germans are already doing it.

lifetimewarranty 01-04-2011 4:35 PM

From what I've heard and read, the main reason we don't have those vehicles is they aren't capable of selling them in Cali, therefore they just don't even bring them here. The same thing happened with the Jeep Liberty, - they never really took off since they weren't offered in Ca.

It does seem that there is a serious slow acceptance of Diesel among the general population, though, when it comes to smaller vehicles. Odd how as a society, we want the 1000lbft monsters, but not the 450lbft more than capable smaller trucks.:confused:

I think the new F150 with that new ecoboost will be sweet - but not sure the price will warrant the purchase. I wonder if it will have the longevity of a diesel and the resale of a diesel, which, imo is a huge proponent of spending the extra money up front for one. Diesels normally have a 5k surcharge (for example) over the gasser, but always get you 5k more on the used sale vs the gasser.

bwake 01-04-2011 8:42 PM

Something like this is a great truck and probably the biggest that we get here.Plenty of capability for towing a 24 foot wake boat and can easily take over 1/2 tonne in the tray. People towing huge 3 axle cabin boats and 5 wheelers normally import a big F250+ sort of truck from the US and convert it.

http://www.nissan.co.nz/commercial/navara/index.php

http://www.thecarconnection.com/mart...-u-s-heres-why

- interesting article about why smaller trucks arent coming to the US

Im sure if we could get a better range of new bigger trucks they would sell more here, but otherwise our roads are way too small for some of the bigger ones.

Im driving a Toyota Landcruiser at the moment to tow the Sanger. The size of it drives me nuts around town.


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