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CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 9:59 AM

surf boat question
 
I just got into surfing, and I really love it. I've been looking at all the pictures and posts about how people have the wakes set up. Right now I just have a 09 yamaha AR230. I get a decent surf wave, but its nothing like some of the waves I have seen on this site. I"m hoping in a few years I can step up to a true wake boat. I"m not sure what are the best options in terms to look for, and what company's are known for the quality. From just looking at pictures it seems centurion avalanche seems to through a great surf wave. But then I seen people with tige, master crafts and malibu's that have good waves too.. It also blows me away at the price these boats can go for. I am assuming most of these boats are like 70-90k boats?? They dont list any kind of prices on there websites. I have no idea who builds quality and reliable boats in this category..

ilikebeaverandboats 07-23-2010 10:14 AM

Centurions make good surf waves, but you need to add more weight than you would on a Tige, just from what ive read on the here. If you want a good surf wave, you will need to add a significant amount of weight regardless, but more so on the centurion. You need to weight different hulls in different places, just kinda how it goes.

If you plan on buying a new boat, depending on what you want and options, itll probably be in the 60K-70K range, but you dont need to buy new. Look and see what you can find use, Tige's hold up real well. We have an 02 20V thats got like 500hours on it, and is basically spotless. A lot goes into personal preference here, because many of the manufacturers make quality boats its just what detail oriented things you like. For example, I am not a huge fan of the way the interiors on the Nautiques are done, not to say they are lacking quality, just not what I like. The Tiges, especially the new ones, really have stepped their game up.
Just get out and start looking at them and riding in them. you will know when you get in the boat and drive it.

As far as surf boats go, dont fall for a company telling you their hull has been designed to "surf" because they werent. The engineer didnt sit down and specifically design a boat to wakesurf...because if they did we would have much bigger wavesn :) Some will probably disagree with me here but the hull, is just a deeper V, they will also tell you it handles chop well too. Its just a deep V.
Tige, Centurion, Sanger typically have the biggest and baddest surf waves behind them.

ragboy 07-23-2010 10:47 AM

Y, I think at this point, any good surf hull is an accident, but maybe not in the near future.

There are plenty of good used boats, I know we are selling our 2007 Tige 24Ve, if you are more interested you can PM me.

The avalanche throws a good wake on both sides, the enzo heavily favors one side. The sangers and the tiges mentioned on the forum are good on both sides, and the sangers and the tiges seem to not require quite as much weight. There is a new boat, supreme v226 that make a good wake on both sides, and is cheaper, without as much of the bling.

So used or new, there are some good choices out there.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 11:00 AM

I ride goofy foot.. would like a boat that throws a decent wake on both sides.. You guys are saying the avalanche throws a better wave then the enzo? I haven't done much reading on the tige's yet. are there certain models that are better? I definalty enjoy surfing over wake boarding so I"m going more for surf. Also what kind of maintenance do these boats require? Thanks for the info so far!

ragboy 07-23-2010 11:14 AM

A good wake is like a beautiful woman, much of it is subjective. I think a good consensus would say that the enzo throws a GREAT wake, on one side, one of the best. That one wake on that one side, may be better than the same side on the avalance, but not much better, and subjective. However, the avalanche basically throws about the same wake on both sides.

So someone who rides only one side, looking for the best wake possible, may feel the enzo is the best for them. Someone like myself, and you, who want good wake on both sides, would want to look at avalanche, tiges (Ve or RZ), Sanger (V237, can't remember the other good models, I know at least one is harder to weight), Supreme V226, and probably some more, but those are the ones I have experience with.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 11:23 AM

ragboy, I saw your post on your new rz2. whats the difference in it and the ve model? It looks like the hulls are a lot different.

ragboy 07-23-2010 11:27 AM

The RZ2 and the 22Ve, are basically the same hulls, just the pickle fork bow is different, but that part isn't in the water, so they make essentially the same wake. I am going from a 24Ve to an RZ2, the 24Ve makes a good wake, but it takes more weight to get it, and since the RZ2 takes less, I can safely add more, and get an even better wake. The 22Ve and the RZ2, should be about identical as far as wake goes.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 11:51 AM

how come the rz2 takes less weight... if there the same hull?

ragboy 07-23-2010 11:53 AM

RZ2 as compared to 24Ve takes less weight, for same wake. The RZ2 is a 22' boat, and the 24Ve is a 24' boat. The RZ2 and 22Ve, should be the same, and the RZ4 and the 24Ve should be the same. Make sense?

dennish 07-23-2010 11:54 AM

Less than the 24ve not the 22ve. It is a smaller boat and normally smaller boats require less weight.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 12:07 PM

ahhh ok gotcha!

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 12:51 PM

what side does the enzo throw the better wake?

dennish 07-23-2010 12:53 PM

Regular side. They make a "right surf" boat if you want to surf on the goofy side.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 12:56 PM

ya I ride goofy... what do they do to switch it?

dennish 07-23-2010 1:00 PM

It has a reverse rotation prop. The transmission is changed to change the rotation.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 1:04 PM

oh.. I saw a vid on tige's site that says you don't need reverse props or anything.. same wave on both sides?

ragboy 07-23-2010 1:17 PM

You can look at this post. Virtually the same wake on both sides. Tige 24Ve, and RZ2.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...69#post1612484

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 1:31 PM

wow both those wakes look good... your saying the rz2 is better though.. I would think a bigger boat would make a better wave..

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 1:59 PM

it looks like your 24ve has a longer pocket, were the rz2 has a taller wave..

ragboy 07-23-2010 1:59 PM

You would think, but not always the case. I thought, the RZ2 would have a bigger wake, taller, with less weight, but the pocket would be shorter. Thinking that the shorter boat would sink down deeper easier. But the RZ2 has a bigger wake, and the pocket is as long, and maybe longer. I can't tell you why.

ragboy 07-23-2010 2:00 PM

@brendan, the RZ2 is stock in that picture. When they are both setup with about the same weight, RZ2 wake is both bigger and longer. Again, not sure about all the reasons why. But because of wake9, I had lots of time to test the RZ2, and I own the 24Ve. Tige actually got me one of the contest RZ2s a full week ahead of the spring festival and told us to have fun. And we did. This is the video from that time out:

This is STOCK RZ2, 250 in under hull tank, and 1000lb sac stuffed above it, nothing else except people.

<object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Icr8aYxxZ_w&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?rel=0&amp;hd=1"> </param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Icr8aYxxZ_w&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?rel=0&amp;hd=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>

Sorry about the audio.

lakesurfer 07-23-2010 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats (Post 1612620)
Centurions make good surf waves, but you need to add more weight than you would on a Tige, just from what ive read on the here. If you want a good surf wave, you will need to add a significant amount of weight regardless, but more so on the centurion. You need to weight different hulls in different places, just kinda how it goes.

Tige, Centurion, Sanger typically have the biggest and baddest surf waves behind them.

You dont have to add a lot of weight to surf a Centurion. I can get a very nice wave just filling up my 1,200lb custom Avy sac plus crew. Most of the weight I run is because I surf a lot with just me and a buddy. So I am basically replacing people ballast. The fact of the matter is, most guys that own Centurions are really into surfing and are maxing their boats out. If I run mine at the rub rail, I can surf all day at 11.7mph and 10-20ft off of my boat. I will run my Avy against a Tige any day with similar weight. and would be honestly surprised if the wave was as large/long/powerful and cleaner.

You are right by the fact that Tige, Centurion, and Sanger all make very solid surf wakes.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 2:05 PM

Ya, I like the avy, and tige.. I never see them around here, lots of Malibu's though..

lakesurfer 07-23-2010 2:10 PM

The Enzo throws an AMAZING wake on one side and a great wake on the other. You can actually pick which side you want the AMAZING wake on by buying a boat with which ever prop rotation works best for you. I always hear about the bad goofy wake. But on the Enzo I have ridden in TX, we get a great goofy wake. You will need a Bennett/Lenco trim tab to get a good wake on the goofy side.

The thing you can not see in a picture is how powerful the Enzo wave is. I have my Avy dialed in and the Enzo wave is significantly more powerful. The waves look very similar, but the Enzo has more push at the back of the wave.

ragboy 07-23-2010 2:10 PM

@jkw you are probably right about the centurion, my only experience with them has been Inland's boat, Sean Cummings, boat 2007 Worlds, and at least one other I can't remember, all heavily weighted.

I must have posted at the same time you did, I agree on the weight part you stated. But we have had experience with the goofy wake on enzos, 1 time with a right-surf boat, wake was great, and 3 times on normal left-surf boats. All 3 times, boats were weighted to give the best goofy wake, and I would not have called it a great wake at all on goofy side. It was very lacking from the regular side on those boats. I have heard that an enzo with a LOT of extra weight on the goofy side can throw a good wake, but takes a lot more than regular side, and I just haven't seen it, not that it doesn't exist, just haven't seen it.

lakesurfer 07-23-2010 2:12 PM

You have to run a lot of weight to surf a Bu

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 2:12 PM

I'd like to have a long pocket, that be sweet. those tige pics ragboy has are very convincing.

lakesurfer 07-23-2010 2:15 PM

@Ragboy: from my experience with Avy/Enzo, you can get a very solid wave with Enzo sac plus people. The wave just gets bigger/longer when you add weight. I am not griping, I just dont want him thinking you have to sing the boat (like a Bu). I have never surfed a Tige, but I hear great things.

islander033 07-23-2010 2:17 PM

I agree with Lakesurfer on all accounts.

You must also take into consideration that some of the people on this thread are sponsored by boat companies......a grain or 2 of salt may be needed...lol.

ragboy 07-23-2010 2:18 PM

@jkw its all good. Well thought out disagreements, or conversation are just fine with me. To date, I have never had a up close and personal experience with the Avy, but would love to. I have ALWAYS spoken well of them, because of all the pics and testimonials I have heard.

So anyone with an AVY up in the NorCal area, come on up and I will give it the same treatment as our Tiges with the video and pictures. I have no problem documenting other boats with great wakes on both sides.

ragboy 07-23-2010 2:22 PM

Can you tell I have been in boring meetings all day? I rarely post this much. Meetings have been NUTS....

@dennis, yes that is true, and starting with this new RZ2, that is true of me also. Tige has become the "official wakesurf boat chosen by wake9.com". But we take great effort to take lots of pictures and be very honest with our setups, so you can judge for yourself. Not to mention we LOVE taking people out to ride and do it all the time.

Also, my relationship with Tige does not preclude me from giving honest reviews of other boats, which I will always do to the best of my ability. The sport is much better off with great choices of great wakesurf boats.

lakesurfer 07-23-2010 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragboy (Post 1612765)
I have heard that an enzo with a LOT of extra weight on the goofy side can throw a good wake, but takes a lot more than regular side, and I just haven't seen it, not that it doesn't exist, just haven't seen it.

From my experience, this is a true statement. My guess is that it take about 500lbs more on the goofy side. I actually think this is the key: trim tab all of the way down and the extra weight.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 2:35 PM

ragboy, how much factory ballast can you get in the tige rz2? I assume you can get the 1000lb sac for the lockers... how do you fill them? can you plumb them perminatly?

ragboy 07-23-2010 2:41 PM

I plan on replacing the 350 sacs with as large as I can, about 1000-1100 lbs, and they will just swap out, fully plumbed. Just buy the sac, swap out the fittings and done. I am VERY excited to try that out and test it, how cool will that be?

Plus the 250 lbs under floor, and the 800lbs up front.

NOTE: I only plan on filling one side at a time, I don't plan on filling it all up and sinking or overweighting my boat.

CarFanatic5 07-23-2010 2:58 PM

sure just weight the surfing side!

lakesurfer 07-24-2010 10:15 AM

One more boat I would take a look at is the Centurion Typhoon. If you are looking for a bigger boat than 22ft but dont want to pay $60K take a look at the Centurion Typhoon. This boat is exactly the same as Avy but 1ft longer. Throws a great wave on both sides and the newer ones can be bought for +/- $38K. Centurion quit making them in 2010 because they wanted to stream line their boat offerings.

green210 07-24-2010 12:56 PM

Another really good boat is the nautique 210. It has some of the best warranty. The wake is equally good on both sides and all you really have to put in is a 350 in the back and another 350 up front to get a good wake. You can also load it up with an enzo sac, the center sac they make for the nautiques and a little bit more weight in the front to get a monster wake. The price is around 60k with the team package, which contains almost all of the options you can get.
I will agree that the wake on the starboard side is horrible on the enzos. I have surfed behind one with 750 pounds in the back and the wave was all washed out. The prop wash kept coming into your face. If you want to surf on the starboard side behind this boat you need to get the right surf system.

This is a pretty funny story we went surfing behind an enzo sv230 and we put 600 in the port side locker and 540 up front. We then later went on a natique 210 and put 300 in the port side locker and 400 up front. The wave was bigger than the enzo. The enzo also has a lot more internal ballast than the nautique too. The enzo wake on that boat is bigger than the 210 when fully wieghted because it can hold A LOT more weight than the 210.

ctimrun 07-24-2010 1:16 PM

The Nautique 210 does throw a decent wave for its size, however there are some issues. To get the nice wave the boat has to be loaded to the point that water easily comes into the side vents and over the bow if not totally watching out for rollers. I don't mind driving it like this but my wife hates driving it this way and complains the whole time I want to ride. It takes the fun out of it for us. Not to mention there is a big secondary lip which interrupts the face of the wave. Here is what I am talking about.

Nice wave but notice the secondary lip.....

http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/10...600x600Q85.jpg

This picture was accidentally taken by my daughter and just happened to capture how close the vent is to the water. This is with less weight than I would like to run but the water gets in too easily to run more....

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/95...600x600Q85.jpg

islander033 07-24-2010 2:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green210 (Post 1613001)
...
I will agree that the wake on the starboard side is horrible on the enzos. I have surfed behind one with 750 pounds in the back and the wave was all washed out. ......

Weight the Enzo properly and then try it again.

Starboard Enzo sac + 750# on the surf side seat + ~200# in the bow going 11mph via GPS.

Total = ~2400#s with a small crew of around 400#s.

dennish 07-24-2010 2:14 PM

For reference the Sangers don't have side vents so you don't get water in the engine compartment. Looks like Lake Perris

ragboy 07-24-2010 2:33 PM

Y, that secondary lip is ok when you are just beginning, but after that, its a major hurdle.

gunz 07-24-2010 3:06 PM

The V210 is very surfable,but requires some sack savy,which,through my own trial and error, I know have.
Surfed it this whole week,everyday.
Not a boat you want to be surfing in rough chop,but most people(not including myself) wont go in rough chop.

It is what you make it.
If I had it to do over again,I'd probably end up with a V215,or a Tige like Ragboys,due to everyone else in my family being goofy footed............doh!

green210 07-24-2010 3:24 PM

Ctimrun wut is your surf setup in the 210?

ctimrun 07-24-2010 6:50 PM

Green210 I have spent a lot of time trying to get the wave dialed in, it is tough to get a nice starboard wave with this boat. It might be easier on the port side but I haven't put much effort into that. The picture above is stock belly and starboard full plus a 400 ib sac in starboard locker, along with two people sitting on the sun pad on the starboard side. If I was keeping the boat I would have removed the stock ballast and put in 750's in their place. IMO this boat needs a lot of weight as far back in the corner as possible to get a decent surfable wave. I have tried to put another 400 lb sac in various other places on the boat (side seats, floor in front of engine, bow) and it never did anything except wash out the wave and make the boat more likely to take on water.

When you do get enough weight in it to make a decent wave you have to deal with water coming in the side vents and over the bow and the secondary lip from the swim step. I briefly thought about trying to cut the swim deck then decided I would make a custom deck, but have also scratched that idea to get into a more preferred surf boat. I love the boat, it has one of the best wakeboard wakes and is an awesome ride, but I am not and never will be a great wakeboarder so I want to get a boat that is more suited to our needs.

ctimrun 07-24-2010 6:51 PM

Good eye Dennis! It is Perris. I haven't been there in years before this season but we are really digging it.

green210 07-24-2010 7:06 PM

Thanks, we have enzo sacs in the back, the nautique center sac and 750 in the front. We were actually thinking of putting more weight in the front, taking a little bit out of the center sac. We found that the nautique needs a lot more weight in the front. The port side is a also a little bit more easy. Try putting the hydrogate down it will help out a lot with the secondary wave.

ctimrun 07-24-2010 7:11 PM

I have ran the hydrogate in all different positions to try and help. The picture you I posted is the best I could get it.

bac 07-24-2010 7:17 PM

I know some of the guys with centurions that are really weighted will cover up the vent on their surfside to allow them to the extra weight.

Not to familiar with these newer Nautiques when it comes to this, but would it be possible to seal off your surf side vent with a a piece of rubber cut to fit your vent opening?

islander033 07-24-2010 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green210 (Post 1613077)
Thanks, we have enzo sacs in the back, the nautique center sac and 750 in the front. ......

Got a pic of your wave with that setup?

green210 07-24-2010 8:42 PM

Sorry dennis i do not have any pictures with the enzo sacs or the center sac (we just got them) and we are away right now. I could try and get some for you in about 2 weeks if you want me to.
Huh thats wierd the hydrogate usualy helps us out a lot and make the wave pretty long. Nautiques need for wieght in the front makes it fun putting a ton of wieght in the back and none up front. Then you get this HUGE wake, i mean this thing is scary big but it is only 2 feet long and then you just drop the hydrogate and it gets longer but is still pretty big. The only boat that does this better is the 220, but they stopped selling them for that problem... i think, and because they were too listy. We haven't done that in a long time but we have gotten the surf over some kids heads that are 12 years old. I might be off but the biggest it would be height wise is 5,5 and the smallest is 4 feet with putting all the wieght in the back. The wake is like a wall it has a 90 degree angle at the bottom. It is fun just to get one of those huge boards that no one ever needs or uses that is a little less than 6 feet and hang at the top of the wake. If you go to the back of the board and go to the "launching " area of the wake your boared is over the swim deck and can almost touch the top of the back of the boat. I think if you got it there and had someone hold the board you could make a bridge over the swim deck or you could jump to the sundeck.

ragboy 07-24-2010 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islander033 (Post 1613014)
Weight the Enzo properly and then try it again.

Starboard Enzo sac + 750# on the surf side seat + ~200# in the bow going 11mph via GPS.

Total = ~2400#s with a small crew of around 400#s.

OK, so I just read in the WWSC thread that the regular Enzo at worlds got damaged, and they were not able to make a regular wake with the goofy boat and so used another, I think an Avy. Doesn't that settle this argument?

I mean if Centurion/Towanza can't make a good enough wake on the opposite side from the Enzo, doesn't that settle it? Avy good wake on both sides, enzo only on one?

We had the same thing happen to us at the Spring Festival, we just kept switching the same RZ2 over from side to side and we were fine, same wake. It did screw up our broadcast a bit, since we had to switch everything from side to side, and it caused us problems, but the wake wasn't an issue.

I was looking for official updates on the contest today, wanted to know how several of my NorCal friends were doing, and so I went to centurion.com and towanza.com and couldn't find any but noticed the Flickr feed for centurion. I love pictures, so I clicked it. These pictures were near the top, from Centurion France:

What we are used to seeing, a nice Centurion Enzo regular wake.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/...3f37e04f_z.jpg

And then the very next picture, assuming same boat

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2535/...db6_z.jpg?zz=1

That picture is what I remember from the times we have been out with a goofy wake on a regular enzo.

You can see the centurion public photostream here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4185887...th/3983094993/

Its like when people ask me about Sangers, I say "Its a good wake on both sides IMO, but they are shallow, and water rides up very high, so test it out, unless you are looking at the V237"

There is a disclaimer people should know about that boat.

Or on Tige, I have said many times, "We love our boat, good wake on both sides, we love the layout, but the vinyl in the interior is not the best quality and not up to the same standards as BU and MC."

Another disclaimer, I have always felt that was important. I should add that the 2010 Tige's resolve this problem.

On the Centurion Enzo, "Some people think it has the best wake, and it may, its preference, its definitely a good wake, but only on one side".

Anyway, sorry for waxing. I just think when people ask for help, we should be as honest as possible. That is why I always try to put up as many photos/angles as possible, so the person looking for info can judge, and ALWAYS offer a ride if in the area. As long as they are not serial killers or pedophiles or something. ;-)

If I am wrong about my assumptions of the Avy replacing the goofy enzo, then by all means correct me.

colombiansurfer 07-25-2010 4:44 AM

Brendan, I have and Avy and YES it will put out a great wave on both sides. When we first bought our boat, I borrowed a Landlock board, went to the ramp we filled jus tthe stock tanks and I was able to surf. Just with stock tanks! On bot sides too! Later on, I wanted more weight, so I added the Enzo sack. So in my Avy, all I have is the Enzo sacs, center tank, and my eye candy crew. That is all I need and we can surf all day long no problems.

islander033 07-25-2010 6:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
@Ragboy

My point was that they made a pisspoor attempt at weighting that Enzo on the darkside. Here is my pisspoor attempt but it was obviously better than theirs.

Enzo sac+200-300#s in the bow +600#s in peeps at 11mph.

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 7:22 AM

Take a look at James Walker's winning run to see the Avy in action. He is riding an Avy wave that is not even loaded up with weight. In the pick you will notice that the rub rail is riding a few inches above the water. On my Avy, this wave can be set up with Avy/Enzo sac plus small crew people. I dont agree with Ragboy on the Enzo (I am use to the wave Dennis is showing above). However, I do agree that the Avy has an awesome wave.

CarFanatic5 07-25-2010 7:29 AM

well it looks like the Avy and rz2 are what I am after.. I am a goofy foot rider so that side is more important to me.. Do botht he avy and rzr 2 have vents on the sides? also what do these two boats go for new? They offer any decent financing? I wish I had tried wake surfing before I bought my yamaha. We are still working on our wave, but we can surf it just fine, its just a very short pocket, which sucks. only maby 3 or 4 feet length wise, but I think we need more weight.. MY goal is to upgrade to a better boat as soon as I can.

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 7:41 AM

You dont have to worry about the vents on the Avy until you have over 2,500lbs on the surf side.

islander033 07-25-2010 8:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 (Post 1613143)
well it looks like the Avy and rz2 are what I am after....

Both great boats to pick from

h20king 07-25-2010 8:28 AM

Islander your wave is beautiful and is Prof that the enzo is king cant wait to see what is possible with the new 2011 enzo with the pure vert ballast,blade and enzo sack.Off topic I talked to crew admin and they said they are working on the problem with the sight as we speak

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 8:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islander033 (Post 1613154)
Both great boats to pick from

X2 - Cant go wrong with either. It would probably come down to which local dealer I like best.

CarFanatic5 07-25-2010 8:46 AM

there are no local dealers for either boat here in Cincinnati...

that huge ancher looking thing from centurion does it help much?

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 (Post 1613158)

that huge ancher looking thing from centurion does it help much?

Anchor-SwitchBlade

If you took a poll on Centurion Crew, my guess is that 50% like it and 50% dont. It is a must for the Falcon, but is not a must for Avy/Enzo. Most guys will tell you that it will take 2-4mphs off of the top end speed, takes some use to driving in close quarters. It will add a few inches to the height of wave and will help clean up wakeboard wake. Personally, I would not spend $4K on it. Actually, I dont think any of the dealers in TX order their boats with them.

h20king 07-25-2010 11:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I have an anchor on my falcon LOL but like said above it does make close quarter handelling difficult and is really not needed on the avy or an enzo but a trim tab is a must on them.I think the falcon gets the best results from the blade JMTC

ragboy 07-25-2010 11:28 AM

@brenden There are no vents at all on the tige on the side.

@dennis and @lkw I am sure you are correct that it is POSSIBLE to get a decent opposite wake on the enzo, and I REALLY appreciate the civil discourse. Understand that I have 6 kids, and 5 of them are goofy, 3 compete, 4 soon, and they are all goofy. So its not just a point I wish to make. This issue has effected us.

2400lbs is a LOT of weight, I believe excessive for an average person to get a decent goofy wake. And if it is true that they tried to use the goofy boat to get a reg wake at worlds, couldn't, and had to find an Avy, that says a lot. You have to at concede, that says a lot to this issue, and that maybe you can get a decent opposite wake, but not near the good side, or they would have surfed it. Heck, just the fact that centurion offers a boat with a different prop rotation makes the case, doesn't it?

I hope that this issue becomes just an understood issue, and that events that use enzos, have a right-surf boat for goofy riders, so goofy riders are given the same great wake. And that prospective buyers are given a disclaimer when they are thinking of getting an enzo. That's all. Fairness and honesty, and let people make the choice. I am not trying to get everyone to want a tige, just get accurate info. I prefer the tige, but hey, thats just me. ;-)

Anyway, again, I appreciate the civil discourse, and I think Brendan has gotten a lot of good info, and hopefully others.

ragboy 07-25-2010 11:30 AM

@brenden there may be a gas vent on the side above the rub rail, I don't remember. But with the hundreds of hours of surfing, never been an issue, nor have I heard of it being one.

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 12:09 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ragboy (Post 1613191)
2400lbs is a LOT of weight, I believe excessive for an average person to get a decent goofy wake.

So how much weight do you run on your Tige (ie this pic)? From what I gather, you want to run 1,200lbs in back locker, bow weight plus people. I would be surprised with your crew that is not 2,000lbs or more on the goofy side. Also, why does it matter if it is 2,400lbs. In Dennis set up, that is all under the seats, which is what you always say is a big deal to you.

BTW - I can run 2,600lbs in my Avy before it runs this low in the water.

Either way, you are right, people need to buy what works best for them. So if I spent 95% of my time riding one side or the other, there is no doubt I would buy an Enzo. If I was riding 60/40 or 70/30, I might looked to something else.

Note: I hope people buy a lot of Tiges. They are made in the great state of TX:)

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1613197)
So how much weight do you run on your Tige (ie this pic)?

@ragboy: Sorry, I just saw this: "This is the pro stock ballast from Tige, empty in the front, full in corner, only 600 lbs of water. 250 in under floor tank, and 350 in a sac in the locker, thats it, plus the people you see"

CarFanatic5 07-25-2010 2:31 PM

ragboy, just curious the reasons you went to a rz2 over your ve24?

ragboy 07-25-2010 5:26 PM

@jkw Those RZ2 pics are with 600 in the corner like you said, NOTHING up front as far as ballast. But you may not see one of my daughters is up there, 140 lbs or so. And maybe 900 lbs of people, I am 400. So that is like 1640 lbs. Also, that boat has NOTHING in it. No gear. It was a factory demo boat so lockers and storage were all basically empty, I believe it did have a full tank of gas.

I will add, that the competition weighting we did on the RZ2 probably added 700 lbs in corner, but probably half of the people weight.

On my 24Ve in the pics from this session below, I have an Enzo type sac that I probably get about 1000 lbs in it. No ballast up front. So that one sac is the ONLY ballast filled. We have very little people weight on this session, just me and 2 daughters, because the rest are on the chase pontoon. I am 400, daughter 130-140 driving, and maddie is like 80 lbs on the opposite side. This is how we run all the time, but with a few more people normally.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/...4c3ef316_b.jpg

For lots more pics, here are links:

This is the RZ2 session that I used the stock setup, detailed above, lots of pics.

2010 RZ2 Stock Setup

And here is the 24Ve session, with the setup detailed above. I have better wake pics of both boats, you can have fun looking through our photostream, but this is the one session that is what I detailed from the Ve above.

24Ve Session

ragboy 07-25-2010 5:52 PM

@brendan
All the time we spent on the RZ2, it was clear that that boat makes a better wake than the 24Ve with less weight, not just bigger, but the same length or a bit longer, and more push. Add to that, I plan on putting the same type of 1000lb sac in the corner, and keep the in hull 250 tanks, its an amazing platform to build a great wake. Also, I HATE dealing with sacs and pumps. We custom made our own ballast system in the Ve, 2 ballast puppies and those 2 sacs so we just hit switches in the Ve to fill or empty on either side. It takes about 16 minutes or so to fully fill one side, and I can fill/empty independently on either side. So I can switch from one side to the other completely in about 20 minutes if motor off, because those pumps suck a lot of juice, and 16 mins if motor running. So we always go out, fill up one side on the 5mph run out of the marina, then surf one side, then stop, swim and switch sides. Then we surf the other sides. We don't have to deal with pumps or sacs. The only thing, its a custom system so when you empty a side, you have to check to make sure the pickup in the sac is sucking water out correctly. So when we start empty on one side, we usually have to reach in and jiggle the hose. We almost never have to help on fill.

Now with the RZ2, it fills and empties with the touch screen. You have four corners on the display, and you can fill/empty each corner independently at the same time. We did a test and it took 6 minutes to move the 600 lbs from one side to the other. Now here is the part that really gets me excited, the way the stock ballast system works.

First, there is a under floor tank, and its where it needs to be, in the corner, 250 lbs. Then above it, is a 350 FlyHigh sac in the locker. Here are 2 pics from when they were building the boat, this is the same sac, with and without the engine.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/...d7ceeedc_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/...372d6415_b.jpg

Now, tige's design, this 350 lb sac velcros into the sidewall of the rear locker, so you have full storage, but when you want to surf, unzip and fill it up, and after you can zip it back up. That is GREAT for the casual surfer. The stock/pro/surf ballast is plenty for making a good wake as the pictures I have posted show. However, a guy like me, says screw the storage, I will put my stuff somewhere else. So we are making custom sacs that have the SAME fittings as the 350, but much bigger to take up the entire locker and up along under the seat, like a custom enzo sac. Based on the space that is there, I think I can get about 1000lbs in each side, so I should have a system with 1000 - 1250 in the rear corners. The great thing is that its all still fully automated, I don't have to add new pumps or anything. I can't wait to get the new sacs and test this, and don't worry, I will post. So the short of your answer is better wake with less weight, and an amazing automated platform for ballast.

HUH, I never noticed before til right now. I think those are the hard tanks at the bottom of the hull. You can see, they are exactly where you want them. 250 lbs in that spot is very efficient. on the bottom of the hull, all the way in the back and in the corner. Funny, I didn't notice those tanks in the picture before. And you can't see them in a new boat. Cool!

lakesurfer 07-25-2010 6:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragboy (Post 1613255)
@jkw Those RZ2 pics are with 600 in the corner like you said, NOTHING up front as far as ballast. But you may not see one of my daughters is up there, 140 lbs or so. And maybe 900 lbs of people, I am 400. So that is like 1640 lbs. Also, that boat has NOTHING in it. No gear. It was a factory demo boat so lockers and storage were all basically empty, I believe it did have a full tank of gas.

Thanks. My take on weight is not how much but how nice a wave you can get and still run at the rub rail or below (ie safe). Whether that is 1,700lbs in a Tige or 2,300lbs in another boat does not matter to me. Boats I dont like are the ones that you really have to sink to get a good solid wave out of. People can choose to weigh their boats more aggressively for a bigger wave, but you should not have to for a nice solid wave.

ragboy 07-25-2010 6:07 PM

I agree. On those tiges we find a real nice wake when weighted so the water kisses the rubrail when riding at 11mph in smooth water.

CarFanatic5 07-26-2010 6:32 AM

I built a custom ballast in my ar230, and it fills with ballast puppy. Its super nice, but I still need to add more weight to it. we get a decent wave with decent push, its just not as long of a pocket as an v drive makes. Which is why I am interested in upgrading to one soon. .. better start playing the lotto :)

colombiansurfer 07-26-2010 10:40 AM

@Brendan - Just FYI, this weekend it was myself and 3 other people out surfing. We have a newbie with us that has never surfed before. I filled up the Enzo sac and center tank on my Avy and off we went. Trim tab up and everyone was surfing. Newbie got up on the second try and road the boat board (Broadcast 4'9") for a long time. After 3 pulls she was able to toss the rope. Wake was huge and she was a little scared to get in the pocket, but she did and now she is hooked. Water was a couple of inches from the rub rail, wake was long and just enough lip to make it perfect. Some guy in a BU came over when we stopped and wanted a pull. When we stopped he asked if I knew anyone that wanted to buy a Malibu Boat. He said he was going to check out the Centurion line a little more. I directed him the the CC page and he called me a few minutes ago, telling me he put an ad in the ATL paper to sell his boat. Now he wants to ride with me if his sells soon. I showed him what we were running and he was sold on and Avy. Meeting up with him on Wed to head over to the Centurion dealership.

ctimrun 07-26-2010 12:17 PM

What year Avy would you recommend for a good surf wake on both sides? Are all the Avy's the same size and same hull?

ilikebeaverandboats 07-26-2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctimrun (Post 1613003)
The Nautique 210 does throw a decent wave for its size, however there are some issues. To get the nice wave the boat has to be loaded to the point that water easily comes into the side vents and over the bow if not totally watching out for rollers. I don't mind driving it like this but my wife hates driving it this way and complains the whole time I want to ride. It takes the fun out of it for us. Not to mention there is a big secondary lip which interrupts the face of the wave. Here is what I am talking about.

Nice wave but notice the secondary lip.....

http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/10...600x600Q85.jpg

This picture was accidentally taken by my daughter and just happened to capture how close the vent is to the water. This is with less weight than I would like to run but the water gets in too easily to run more....

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/95...600x600Q85.jpg

Nice wave man. Best Ive seen behind a SAN. Ones ive seen dont normally look that clean, even on the port side.

ctimrun 07-26-2010 12:28 PM

Also didn't some of Centurion's towers have issues? What towers and/or years to stay away from?

CarFanatic5 07-26-2010 12:56 PM

are the avy's cheaper then the tiges? any idea what the starting price on one is?

lakesurfer 07-26-2010 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctimrun (Post 1613607)
Also didn't some of Centurion's towers have issues? What towers and/or years to stay away from?

Some of the Evolution towers legs have cracked at the base. Based on how often this comes up on Centurion Crew, my guess is that it is way less than 5% of the towers produces. So it is not that often, the real problem is you cant get it fixed easy because the manufacturer is no longer in business. So guys are having to replace an entire tower when they only need one leg of the tower replaced. Some of them have cracked because water got in and expanded in the winter when it froze. Other I have seen cracked because of manufacturer error.

ctimrun 07-26-2010 1:04 PM

What doe the evolution tower look like? So I know what to stay away from if I go the Avy route.

lakesurfer 07-26-2010 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 (Post 1613629)
are the avy's cheaper then the tiges? any idea what the starting price on one is?

My guess is that generally speaking, an Avy is cheaper if you buy a used one (compared to a used Tige). However, if you buy a new one they are probably not that much different. The Avy now comes with the LCD screen, etc.

BTW - the hull on the Avy has not changed in several years. So if you find a nice used one, it will produce the same great wave.


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