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-   -   Easiest invert? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78062)

joe_788 08-11-2003 10:11 AM

I just started wakeboarding several months ago, and have been riding at the river 3-5 times a week since. <BR> <BR>I can throw pretty big heelside and toeside 180's into the flats, but that's all I can do, and it seems like any other trick is a pretty big step. I'm moving to socal in about 3 weeks, and that will probably be the end of my wakeboarding career, so I'd like to learn at least one flip before I'm done. <BR> <BR>What is the easiest/safest flip to learn, and why? Any hints or tips that will help me? I've got a good board, (Hyperlite Drifter, Highback bindings) and I ride behind a good boat, (2003 X-10), so now I just need some balls.

tfdhyprider 08-11-2003 10:16 AM

i think a tantrum is pretty easy and so is a backroll ...you should try one of those

tfdhyprider 08-11-2003 10:18 AM

a scarecrow is also pretty easy...all u do is go in ts. wait until ur board has left the wake to get the max air on ur rotation..hold on w/ both hands and it will spin u 180 while ur in the air..and ull land if u get ur rotation

dcervenka 08-11-2003 10:37 AM

hs backroll - <a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/Tricklist/TrickTip004.asp" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/Tricklist/TrickTip004.asp</a> <BR>Make sure to keep edging through the top of the wake, hold on with both hands, and keep your eyes open. <BR>

joe_788 08-11-2003 11:37 AM

Thanks for the link DC, I've looked over that in the past, but I'm still having a hard time visualizing the trick because the guy in the video rides goofy. <BR> <BR>One of my friends started riding at the same time as me, and he learned a tantrum in less than 10 tries last week. It looks so easy when he does it, but when I get out there I can't even get myself to try it. It just feels really un-natural. I'm hoping a backroll won't be so scary. <BR> <BR>If I could download a video of a guy throwing a heelside backroll riding regular stance, it might help me a little bit. <BR> <BR>I took a board to the head awhile back (lots of blood), so I'm still a little gunshy about trying new tricks. Do any of you guys wear helmets?

dcervenka 08-11-2003 11:52 AM

Joe - This video has a slow (and regular) motion regular HS backroll, it took my buddy 3 times before he got it (I show the crashes too....) <BR> <BR>!! Only watch the first rider to see successful completions of a backroll. The second rider attempts but never lands any because of bad form/technique !! <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.cervenka.net/videos/WatchMovie.asp?MovieID=34&amp;Rating=3&amp;MovieLi nk=EveningSessions7-8-03.wmv&amp;MovieTitle=Evening%20Sessions%20II%20-%20Flip%20Nation" target="_blank">http://www.cervenka.net/videos/WatchMovie.asp?MovieID=34&amp;Rating=3&amp;MovieLi nk=EveningSessions7-8-03.wmv&amp;MovieTitle=Evening%20Sessions%20II%20-%20Flip%20Nation</a> <BR> <BR> <BR>Kung-Fu Wake (wakeboarder formerly known as DC) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by dcervenka on August 11, 2003)

typhoon 08-11-2003 11:55 AM

what is kung fu wake?

dcervenka 08-11-2003 11:59 AM

TY - no idea... just bored. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> <BR>

deepstructure 08-11-2003 12:24 PM

lol fu. <BR> <BR>joe, i learned a backroll first and then a tantrum - but imho the tantrum is <i>much</i> easier. but some folks have a problem thinking about it because you change edge slight as you come in. for me, it was an easy thing because i've done springboard diving and some gymnastics and backflips seem like a natural thing - you've done a backflip off the side of a pool or boat haven't you? <BR> <BR>whereas backrolls don't resemble anything i've done in my life - since i've never skateboarded in a full pipe and done a complete loop. about the closest thing to it would be if i could stand sideways on a rollercoaster as it went through a loop. that's the rotation. but it took me a while to visualize it.

joe_788 08-11-2003 12:34 PM

Were those his first 3 times ever trying it? <BR> <BR>That second guy took a beating!

joe_788 08-11-2003 12:46 PM

Chris, I can somewhat visualize the tantrum, especially when I'm sitting on the boat watching somebody else do it. It's the approach that really scares me. The real hard cut, then easing off and sort of "backing" into the wake. I've done backflips on trampolines, rope swings, diving boards, all kinds of stuff. For some reason I'm just terrified of approach to the Tantrum. <BR> <BR>The backroll approach is less scary for me, progressive edge all the way into the wake. After watching that video I can sort of picture what I need to do. If I go out today or tomorrow I'll try it and see what happens.

dcervenka 08-11-2003 12:49 PM

yes. But what you don't see is the 2+ hours of trampoline time that went into practicing the side rotation. <BR> <BR>Too bad you're heading to so-cal because there's a gym (<a href="http://www.acrosports.org/" target="_blank">http://www.acrosports.org/</a>) in SF that offers an "Extreme Sports Trampoline" class that allows you to practice on the tramp with a snowboard. <BR> <BR>Just remember to keep edging through the top of the wake (It's weird feeling at first because your board will go up and away from the boat) Stay commited otherwise you'll end up like the second guy (notice that he does NOT keep edging all the way through). Keep your legs stiff and both hands on the handle. If you do those 3 things, you'll get the feeling and it will be easy after that. <BR> <BR>

boofhead 08-11-2003 2:41 PM

I have a mate who is the same - good enough to try but not psyhed enough - the other day he just went out and did it - FIRST TIME, guy went nuts - you have to be in it to win it

slob180 08-11-2003 11:48 PM

I really have a hard time visualizing the back roll. When you pop off of the wake do you throw your head down toward your toes, like a front flip on land, or do you throw your head towards the tail of your board sort of like a cartwheel?? <BR>

laptom 08-12-2003 4:37 AM

I throw my heads up and follow the rotation (or the rotation follows the head). <BR> <BR>Cheers Tommy

toolfan 08-12-2003 6:32 AM

look up and over your lead shoulder as if you were trying to bite your ear. thats what i was told and it works. so far as visualization goes, a backroll is like a reverse of a diving board except that instead of doing a back flip and moving away from the diving board(forward), you are doing a cartwheel but not as extended. rolls are merely cartwheels. <BR>i try to think that my pivot point is where my elbows touch my hips as i tuck the rope in. im a rookie as far as wakeboarding goes, but i can land backrolls with regularity. one last thing, if you try it, make sure you are balls to the wall. you cant half-ass it, at first anyway. <BR>

deepstructure 08-12-2003 6:49 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>When you pop off of the wake do you throw your head down toward your toes, like a front flip on land, or do you throw your head towards the tail of your board sort of like a cartwheel??<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>actually both. there are two ways to throw it - the most common is like jacopo said, look back over your lead shoulder. but if you do it mexican style (which is what is used for backroll to blind, double-backs, etc.), then you throw your head down and forward. <BR> <BR>watch tyler heinz in this video - he does a mexican backroll: <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/news/2003/balfour2.asp" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/news/2003/balfour2.asp</a>

joe_788 08-12-2003 8:08 AM

Ok, I'm going out today at 4pm, I'm gonna try the backroll at least once. I have another question though... <BR> <BR>Does it have to be wake to wake? I think if I didn't have to take it wake to wake, I could focus on more pop/rotation instead of trying to get all the way across. (This is how I learned my hs 180). <BR> <BR>The gnarly cut is what scares me on a tantrum, but it seems like on a backroll, a real progressive edge from about 10 feet out could get me up and around.

dcervenka 08-12-2003 9:17 AM

Joe - Try it at 55/60 ft. Most people under-rotate digging their nose into the back of the wake. Shortening the rope will help. <BR> <BR>Remember.... edge through the top of the wake. <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by dcervenka on August 12, 2003)

rootc 08-12-2003 10:01 AM

The tantrum is easy to throw. Throw it once and you will realize that the wipeouts don't hurt. On the Tantrum you can spot your landing during the whole rotation.

deepstructure 08-12-2003 11:23 AM

i agree with root, you'll realize once you throw it that the wipeouts don't really hurt. although if your bindings are tight you can hurt your ankles if you under-rotate. ;) haha root. just had to say it. <BR> <BR>but yes, you can definitely do your backroll w/o a large cut. you can also try it inside out one wake if you want to take it easier.

dizzyj 08-12-2003 11:31 AM

so, is the only real difference between a backroll and a tantrum that your edging more (normal) during a backroll, so you kinda corkscrew more, where as a tantrum you stop edging so its more of a backflip (gymnyst syle).

joe_788 08-12-2003 11:50 AM

"so, is the only real difference between a backroll and a tantrum that your edging more" <BR> <BR>If you are in the boat, watching a regular-foot rider, he will spin clockwise on a tantrum. He will spin counter-clockwise on a backroll.

ahuser22 08-12-2003 11:55 AM

The difference between a backroll and a tantrum: <BR> <BR>Imagine a quarter lyings heads ups, flip the quarter so it is now tails up; that is the movement of a tantrum <BR> <BR>Imagine a quarter balancing on an edge, roll the quarter back and forth, that is the movement of a backroll or frontroll

dizzyj 08-12-2003 12:03 PM

Ah, I see, this is why i was confused <BR> <BR>"from the wakeworld faq: <BR> <BR>Q. What's the difference between a roll and a flip? <BR> <BR>A. A roll is when the board goes end over end (toeside over heelside or heelside over toeside), whereas a flip is when the board goes tip over tail. The definition of a roll and a flip, in wakeboarding, is based on the motion of the board, not the rider. So what seems like a flip to a gymnast (the rider does a somersault-like move) is a roll to a wakeboarder as the board goes end-over-end (i.e. a backroll). And what seems like a cartwheel to a gymnast, is a flip to a wakeboarder as the board goes tip-over-tail (i.e. front flip)." <BR> <BR>so, quarter rolling on its edge would be tip over tail, or tail over tip, where as a tantrum would be toe over heal, or heal over toe. That sound right? <BR> <BR>

mossy44 08-12-2003 12:06 PM

if he is tails up, he is on his head. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>aaron is right though. a back roll is more like a "cartwheel" motion, as where a tantrum is more like a "back flip" off the diving board. <BR> <BR>i learned the backroll first. i can do botht the tantrum and the backroll now, but i had a harder time learning the tantrum. i had problems with the whole "changing edge" thing.

roskow 08-12-2003 2:27 PM

Funny line of thoughts. I really liked the scarecrow description toward the beginning. My 2cents ( or should I say Quarter) on a back roll is hold on to the handle with both hands good and tight and keep it close. Just keep throwin' em.

deepstructure 08-12-2003 2:33 PM

dj - you're right to be confused. one of the wonderful thing about wakeboarding naming - the backroll really should be a flip given that explanation (tip over tail vs. rail over rail). of course, if you do it mexican it is a roll. but hell, <i>that</i> should be called a hs front roll probably. ;) <BR>

slob180 08-12-2003 6:31 PM

So now when you guys say "look back over your lead shoulder" is that the shoulder leading the rotation. For example I am Left foot forward so is my lead shoulder for a back roll my right shoulder??? I am so confused!!!! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/angry.gif" border=0>

deepstructure 08-12-2003 7:01 PM

now now...calm down. you've heard of leading hand and trailing hand right? same thing - the lead shoulder is the one you're leading into the wake with - for you it would be your left shoulder - the same shoulder as the foot you have forward when going towards the wake. <BR> <BR>so as you come up the wake you'll look back over your left shoulder which will start the cartwheel rotation.

joe_788 08-12-2003 9:22 PM

I stomped it twice! I just now got home(9pm). <BR> <BR>It was sort of weak because I didn't take it wake to wake. I didn't feel like my progressive edge was strong enough to get the height. <BR> <BR>Towards the end of my second session I had the driver slow the X-10 down to about 17 mph (the wake was well above my knee). I cut out about 15 feet, and just went for it. My rotation was so far off, I went in head/back first, completely upside down. It didn't hurt though, so my confidence went through the roof. <BR> <BR>The second and third try, the board was the first thing to hit the water. But for some reason I was holding the handle with one hand, BEHIND my back (and my back was towards the boat). <BR> <BR>On the fourth try I made a conscious effort to keep both hands on the handle. I got the rotation just about right but the board was facing perpendicular to the boat(like I was doing a board slide), and the toe edge caught and yanked my feet right out of the bindings. <BR> <BR>The fifth try I had the rotation perfect but I still landed in sort of a board slide and slid out on my ass. <BR> <BR>The sixth try I stomped it. Money. <BR> <BR>I tried about 10 more times and only landed it once more. I landed on the board every single time, but I was always leaning too far back, and I was in a board slide. I must be doing something wrong because the whole flip/rotation feels scary as hell, and I never spot the landing until the board is on the water. As I'm coming up to the wake, my only train of thought is, "Ok here comes the wake, alright now I'm upside down, Ok now I just landed a back roll." I'm going again on Friday, so I'll try looking over my lead shoulder. <BR> <BR>To anybody that wants to get upside down, I highly recommend going for a back roll. I fell almost 20 times and never got even slightly hurt. Just slow the boat down to 17mph (as long as the wake isn't breaking like an ocean wave), and the falls don't hurt at all. You pop straight up, so when you come down you aren't even going very fast. This really was sort of a pussy way to do it, but once I really get the rotation dialed in, I plan on going wake to wake with it.

dcervenka 08-12-2003 10:48 PM

AWESOME! congrats! <BR>

nautiboarder 08-13-2003 5:07 AM

Something that helped me was at a camp, they had me stand with my back to my friend, who was about 10' behind me. The coach gave me a boat bumper, had me hold it in the position I would have the rope on my approch, and then taking both hands I would look over my sholder while throwing it to the person behind me. All in the same motion. They said that was the motion to do the backroll.

roskow 08-13-2003 6:32 AM

Good deal dude! I slid out alot, then when I landed I would butt cheek it. As your mental check list goes down, (hold rope,good cut,look over shoulder,etc.) it's easier to start spotting your landing which is huge. Try to take it wake to wake, landing on the down side of the other wake is cake. Casing the other wake is a different story. <BR>I ride with my family mostly and nobody who pushes me, you've given me a little shove. I'm going out today, I'll never throw a tantrum unless I try. <BR>Congats on landing it your first session.

mcfatty 08-13-2003 12:10 PM

Ya'll have pumped me too. I'm going after work.

joe_788 08-13-2003 12:23 PM

Mcfatty and Larry, if you go and try it today, just be prepared for the fact that your first try will probably be WAY off. My rotation on the first 3 tries was way off. It's really wierd. Just cut hard up the wake and make sure the board goes up and away from the boat, after you leave the wake you will have pretty much NO idea what is happening until you hit the water again. Make sure to look over your lead shoulder like everybody has been saying. I didn't do it, and I'm pretty sure that's why I was so inconsistent on the landing. Good luck! <BR> <BR>(Message edited by joe_788 on August 13, 2003)

dizzyj 08-13-2003 2:18 PM

congrats, good to hear you can do this without having to go wake to wake. I still think ill get a helmet before I try first tho <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

rogerw44 08-13-2003 2:43 PM

I have been trying backrolls for a few months now (have yet to ride away clean) and after reading this post, i am confused on which way to move my head. This thread says to look over your lead shoulder, but other videos and instructionals like Wake Physics say to move your head toward the tail of the board. These seem to be contradictive. <BR>BTW, I ride goofy so my lead shoulder is my right, and when i look up and over my right shoulder, i do a roll to revert while eating sheit. I have yet to try moving my head toward the tail of the board. <BR>Anyone have suggesstions?

deepstructure 08-13-2003 3:25 PM

congrats joe! i've been backrolls for almost a year and im just now working on spotting my landing. for the most part it's just as you describe it. <BR> <BR>roger - actually those two things aren't necessarily exclusive. if you turn your head to look UP and over your right shoulder (even just as you sit looking at this screen), you'll notice your head actually inclines towards your left shoulder, which is the tail of the board. <BR> <BR>if you're going to revert that's probably more to do with your handle work. are you keeping both hands on the handle and keeping it at your waist? if you take your leading hand (right hand) off during the rotation you'll automatically start going revert. got any video? <BR> <BR>(Message edited by deepstructure on August 13, 2003)

inadrummer 08-13-2003 3:37 PM

i have been trying for a few months too... and i believe what they mean is to tilt your head to the tail of the board WHILE looking back over your lead shoulder. the tilting back towards the tail will help you get your full rotation, while looking towards your lead shoulder will direct your roll, as well as keep you ready for the landing! <BR> <BR>i was also taught to reef the handle down (like all wake to wake jumps) as well as back to my leading hip. the reason why i havent been able to land these is because i land with my board under me BUT not enough on edge ...so i usually catch my heelside edge and fall back. after reading this forum post, i am realizing that it is because i am bringing my handle out to the side that i am falling. im guessing that the best way to keep me from rotating is to keep my handle down at my waiste, but directly in front of me. does this make any sense????? where do you guys keep your handle when throwing backrolls? <BR> <BR>thanks <BR>~Jesse

inadrummer 08-13-2003 3:38 PM

haha, christopher got to it before me <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>anyways back to the handle position?

deepstructure 08-13-2003 3:47 PM

well from everything i've learned you pretty much just want to keep the handle close at the waist - at the center of your body. you rotate around it basically. if you're moving it to one side or another you'll start to turn, as that's how you do the rotation on a 180.

inadrummer 08-13-2003 3:54 PM

you rotate it around? which way?

joe_788 08-13-2003 6:39 PM

I had to make an effort to keep the handle in both hands, and I believe it was more towards my trailing hip. Once I was in the air though, it's anybodies guess what I was doing. I have a digital video camera, and I think I'm going out tomorrow so I'll try to video it and get it up by tomorrow night. My buddy (who owns the X10) is all amped up to try it now, so the video should include a whole lot of falling down.

mcfatty 08-14-2003 7:53 AM

We went out wednesday and I tried a backroll. Didn't land it but got close. We were pressed for time so I only got four attempts. <BR> <BR>I am so stoked now, going back friday night.

seattle 08-14-2003 9:33 AM

Video's please fellas. <BR> <BR>I'm still leaving way to early, and not edging all the way through the wake. The problem I seem to have is, I have no feel for when my board leaves the wake. Either I start too early and have no pop, or I wait to long and end up sprawled out on my back. Any suggestions???

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