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fredlap 05-18-2010 9:33 AM

I don' t want to create a war but I really want to know some informations about wakes. I want opinions from riders who tried lot of boats including the Epic 23v (because I believe this is will be my first boat, someday). I'm still open mind for other boats like Supra, SAN (used = expensive compare to others), Axis, Moomba, Mastercraft, etc.
I want the best wake, that's it!
... here some boats I tried and what I think...

SAN 210 2008 : great clean wake
MC X2 2008 : I'm not sure because of the weather and the pilot ... not impress at the end!
SAN 210 2005 : prefere the 2008 but it could be the ballast set up
Session Si with lot of weight : big wake, lot's of pop but harder to set
Malibu wakesetter 2004 : not enough weight... was not bad but I can't really know

My best rides : Session and SAN 210 08


tampawake 05-18-2010 9:47 AM

How much money do you have? Do you like ramp or more straight up? I think your going hear each manufactures wake machines and depends on what you like. What kind of boarder are you? Do you have length restrictions. How much extra ballast above stock do you plan putting in. Way too wide open.

PF X Star
Current SAN 230
New to the Scene
RZ2 with 2000k set up

tampawake 05-18-2010 9:48 AM

Oh and forgot Supra 24 worlds.

alans 05-18-2010 9:53 AM

MB Team WIdebody and F21 Tomcat have to be included if you are talking about the best wakes. :)

guido 05-18-2010 9:57 AM

If you're talking wake alone and have a ton of money for gas, then I gotta say X-star with lot's of weight. The wake is so much fun. The size of the boat is great, too.

$ for $, it's hard to beat the Axis.

cwb4me 05-18-2010 10:05 AM

tige has a great wake without weight and a awesome wake with weight. it's very affordable and the wake is adjustable with taps.

ironj32 05-18-2010 10:11 AM

No one has mentioned the 205V hull yet (older XStar, X2, and current X1)...this is right up there with the others. It's not the roomiest boat, but it has an excellent wake. I've ridden that hull, new XStar, 22ssv, SAN 230, VLX, SAN 210, Axis, and quite a few others but they're not worth mentioning. IMO, all of the boats create pretty good wakes, there just shaped a little differently, and that just comes down to personal preference (soft, hard, verticle, rampy, etc...). I've found that the current X1 wake seems to be kind of a blend of the new XStar and the SAN 230. Definitely worth checking out if all your concerned about is the wake. I've been told that the 23 LSV has a super nice wake, but I haven't had a chance to check it out.

Good luck!

fredlap 05-18-2010 10:15 AM

$$$ : I will put 40 000$ but not this year! Maybe in 2 years!
preferences : I Think I prefere steeper ones for wake to wake moves but I like to puch to the flat to! I don't have any limits for ballast but I love the 4000lbs of Epic to keep all your storage free!
style : I ride every w-e + summer break since 4 years (+/- 4 month per year) ... I think I'm a not so bad intermediate rider! lol
length : The bigest factor is the wake but I want some place to! That's why the SAN 210 is not my 1st choice! Small, expensive, but the wake is awesome! I prefere the Session for his size and the wake is very surprising! That's the boat I'm used to ride....

fredlap 05-18-2010 10:20 AM

I love it... good opinions!!

dirwoody 05-18-2010 10:33 AM

Check out the Tige RZ2 and RZ4 - they put out a good wake with some weight with a lot of space.
Otherwise......For 40K - I'd pick up an Axis, wake making machine and in 2 years you should be able to pick one up very nicely equipped for 40, with plug and play ballast being enough to satisfy anyone.

fredlap 05-18-2010 10:51 AM

Axis wake is that good!? Ok! Stock ballasts are ok?

jps912 05-18-2010 10:54 AM

Ive got a 2000 SAN 210 and I love it. Boots you straight up.

ironj32 05-18-2010 10:59 AM

if you go with Axis, make sure you have it equipped with a wedge. i rode one with about 3500 lbs of ballast w/out the wedge, and, in my opinion, the wake was mediocre at best. HOWEVER, once we put the wedge down it was a totally different wake, and can be competitive with the other top wakes.

fredlap 05-18-2010 11:02 AM

How big is the Epic wake compare to a 210 with every ponds it can takes!

fredlap 05-18-2010 11:03 AM


liquidmx 05-18-2010 11:21 AM

Fred...other things to consider besides boat cost (when you are looking at "best wake").

Size of the boat...A 23ft boat will take more weight to sink to create a big wake = more gas too.

Size of the gastank and relative efficiency in towing along with your ability to refill. If you want "the best wake" dont expect to be able to ride all day on 1 tank of gas, especially if you have to "commute" to a riding spot with a wake specific pitched prop.

Driver abilities to tow YOU!!! Do you have someone with experience driving a heavy boat? Do they know how to come off plane without taking a roller over the back of the boat? Do they know how to turn inside the rollers to keep the boat from taking them over the bow or even the side of the boat/windshield? Are you comfortable driving a boat with the rubrail 6-10inches above the waterline (or thereabouts)?

The fact of the matter is what exactly do you mean by "best wake"?...best factory supplied setup? Best pro-level weight (lots of ballast!)? Best "reasonable wake...(factory plus maybe a little extra)? Best dollar for dollar wake?

Are you comfortable towing with some lead in the boat? How much can you comfortable accept (and tow vehicle maintain).

With all that said if money were No object I would be looking closely at the following boats (all heavily weighted of course):

SAN 230
X Star
Malibu LSV & VLX
Supra 24SSV
and probably some that I am forgetting off the top of my head.

samhanna 05-18-2010 11:22 AM

I have owned a Malibu and now an Epic. I have ridden behind almost every boat, except a newer Tige. My Malibu wake was mediocre at best, with an additional 2400 lbs to fill up on the seats every set. One of my best friends Nautique 220 TEAM is good at best with an additional 3000 lbs in lockers and in the bow. My other friends X-star with the plug and play system is good. Supra loaded out mediocre. Then I got my Epic.... Running the Epic with 1/2 ballast front and 1/4 in both back tanks beats every wake listed above hands down in size and shape. And then if you want you can add another 2500 lbs and run the ballast full.... If you have seen it or ridden behind it you would never want to ride another boat again. It makes everything so effortless. The only complaint is with full ballast the wake is very touchy with where people sit... but if you have a good crew its not an issue.

The jump from getting on an xstar to an Epic is like going from Tee-ball to batting against Nolan Ryan in his prime. I would strongly suggest moving into the transition easily. I learned this the hard way and on my first set cranked the ballast all the way up and went straight into my inverts. First toeside crow of the day was way to huge and overrotated to a broken fibia in my left leg and a torn miniscus and ACL in my right knee.

Yah it really is that big.....

hyperlite 05-18-2010 11:26 AM

San 230 and the xstar for sure.

fredlap 05-18-2010 11:50 AM

M-Dizzle, I ride behind 2 boats... Session with 3500lbs and a 210 with 2500lbs.... all 5 guys can drive a loaded boat! No tow vehicule prolems. For 46 000$, you can find a 2009 new Epic (full loaded as always) and a 2005 used SAN 210 TE!

Sam! It's hard to read... I can wait now to get a 23V!

gotwake133 05-18-2010 11:54 AM

you cant go wrong with an xstar or any san!

liquidmx 05-18-2010 11:57 AM

Sam, please pass whatever you are smoking because it must be good.

samhanna 05-18-2010 12:18 PM

Dizzle, have you ridden behind an Epic? Are you a good rider at all? 5+ inverts? I'm guessing the answer to all my questions is a simple 'no'? I have ridden behind almost every boat made.

Fred, wasn't trying to scare anyone off in the last post. The Epic has the ability with no ballast to throw beginner wakes, to uncomparable wakes with full stock ballast.

If you havent been out behind one you need to!

fredlap 05-18-2010 12:29 PM

It looks clear for me!

alans 05-18-2010 12:42 PM

The words escape me

Luker 05-18-2010 12:48 PM

#1. SAN230 = Huge, fairly hard for redic boot but still pretty forgiving on landings, just right width
#2. SAN210 = A little more mellow than the 230, not as much pop but still great, wider thant the 230, very forgiving
#3. SANTE 211 = can be big if slammed, nice and poppy, a little more narrow than the 210, forgiveness between the 230-210
#4. Old school 210 hull = Can be huge, Straight up curb like monster pop, super narrow, super unforgiving
#5. 23LSV = pretty steep, not huge unless slammed, a little lippy for my taste, good pop, fairly wide like the 230 but not too bad
#6. Epic = Much like the SAN 210 in my opinion but a little mushy and not as consistent, can be really big though
#7. MC X-45 = Super wide, rampy, needs lots of weight
#8. MC X2 (circa 2003) = big and meaty, wider and similar to the Epic in style, a bit soft IMO

Just a few opinions... some of which are based on like one or two rides possibly even a few years ago, so take them for what they are worth. Pretty clear... I love Nautiques and think they make the best wake out there :)

Luker 05-18-2010 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by samhanna (Post 1586617)
First toeside crow of the day was way to huge and overrotated to a broken fibia in my left leg and a torn miniscus and ACL in my right knee.

Yah it really is that big.....

I prefer heelside scarecrows :p

alans 05-18-2010 12:53 PM

Luker, they are so extreme, but I know you are not a good enough rider to do them :D

Luker 05-18-2010 1:01 PM

^Hahahaha... I've been working on them but my Epic keeps shooting me to the moon and I can't stick the landing. LOL

fredlap 05-18-2010 1:05 PM

I'm pretty sure you are all better riders than me so I don't give a !!! about it! I want the greatest wake and boat for the price and if Epic have a great wake (but luker put it #6... not so good) it's the best for the price! SAN are so much expensive! I know it is good for resale but I don't want to change my boat every 5 years! Here in Quebec, we ride 4 months per year in fresh water... so the boats stay clean! I'll keep it until I can't ride anymore!

Luker 05-18-2010 1:18 PM

I never said the Epic wake was bad... I actually really enjoyed my set on it... but there is a reason Nautiques are so much more expensive in the used market... because they are the best most reliable used boat out there. I ride a 1996 Super Sport with 4,200lbs pretty much every week and it purrs like a kitten a throws one of the nastiest wakes you'll ever shred.... at 14 years old!

You get what you pay for... if you're looking for a boat that will last you forever and has a consistently great wake, CC is where its at.

alans 05-18-2010 1:22 PM

Fred, you have a MB dealer in Wilminton, Vermont

dadthedriver 05-18-2010 1:23 PM

Fred Go EPIC and dont look back. No complaints and if it is any consequence 2 weeks ago when we sold our epic and had only the VLX My son refused to ride the malibu and went back to florida to ride until the tour starts. His last words were, "see you when we have an EPIC back on the water. Its a great boat That can go from beginner to OMG in just a few minutes.

fredlap 05-18-2010 1:23 PM

great comment!!!!

bjeremi 05-18-2010 1:27 PM

Fred calm down just a little bit. The "!" on your keyboard is getting worn out lol.

fredlap 05-18-2010 1:31 PM

!!!!! !!!! !! ! !! !! !! I'm loosing controle !!! !! ! ! ! !! ! ! !!! ! ! ! ! lol

fredlap 05-18-2010 1:31 PM

Trust me... I can't be more relax than that!!!

hyperlite 05-18-2010 1:32 PM

Older SA's are sweet.....

fredlap 05-18-2010 2:15 PM

I think Ben C is Tony Caroll's dad.... so, I trust him. Thanks Ben!

liquidmx 05-18-2010 2:24 PM

Fred it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind, keep us posted with pics when you get it. FWIW I have had the great opportunity to ride behind some seriously loaded down boats including a SAN 230 & 210, X Star & 205V, VLX & V-Ride, Epic, Supra SSV, Axis, Tomcat, etc. My personal opinion is just about any wake specific boat can throw a killer wake with enough weight in it (and some with very different shapes). It also sounds like you have not gotten a chance to really check out fully weighted boats with proper setups. I would suggest networking with some peeps in your area to try and find some properly setup boats to see what you think when its "apples to apples". Its really hard to compare one boat's wake to another without a similar amount of weight in them. This can really help you figure out what hull you prefer.

fredlap 05-18-2010 2:37 PM

You're right M-Dizzle! I just tried couple of boats. I wish I will ride more in the next 2 years! It depends what's will be on the market at this time and not so far away from where I live! There's a lot of Epic on the west coast .... not so much on the est coast. Quebec to LA is a long trip! Thanks man!

bbr 05-18-2010 2:55 PM

Ben you sold the Epic...what gives?

I will put my two cents in here. I have ridden behind a ton of boats and will tell you that the Epic wake is really nice. When riding behind Ben's they only had about half the ballast in it and the wake was large. It had a pretty good transition, and a ton of vertical pop. You don't have to charge the wake at all to get booted, which is cool, cause you can just coast in. I was VERY impressed with the power, the wake, and the way it drove. We were on a private lake and it has no issues making tight turns. I would be stoked to own one. And when comparing to other boats, the price tag is much less then say a 230, or an X Star.

sidekicknicholas 05-18-2010 3:09 PM

My top wakes

1. Epic 23v - stock
2/3 (tie) Will C's X-star --- like 3k+ lbs - big, meaty, and great shape
My old style SAN210 2k lbs --- straight up and down, good on gas but still a big big wake

gene3x 05-18-2010 4:56 PM

I rode the SAN 230 for the first time at Wake Games..... holy chit mang. The first day I came in mellow and got bucked almost over rotating a crow so big it scared me a little. So I slowed my cut down even more until I got used to it by the ed of my pass. Best Shape and rivals biggest size I have seen. (yes I have been behind a slammed Epic. Both are super finicky wakes and wash easily side to side.
Made the finals and was first off the dock the next day. The damn 230 washed all the way down the line and I fell twice early but setup right was easily the best wake I have been on. BTW I have a 24SSV (My third maybe fourth fave) and can get it setup to come close but it all these including mine are sunject to wash easily if not perfectly weighted. Except the Malibu 23LSV & 247

Best Stock wakes:

Best Wakes overall:
SAN 230
Bu 247 (yes I said it, slam one and you shall see)

My Favorite:

Bu 247 and 23LSV (for the transition and wake)

The Epic has very little transition or landing zone.

gene3x 05-18-2010 4:57 PM

Honorable Mention a slammed 210

dizzyj 05-18-2010 5:01 PM

fyi, I run the same weight in my 230 and I did in my og 205v. The wake is bigger on the 230 (very similar shape), and I consume less gas.

cjh1669 05-18-2010 5:08 PM

If you're looking for a great wake at a price point go with the axis. I've only ridden one without plug and play, but have heard the plug and play axis compared to a slammed xstar

bobenglish 05-18-2010 5:54 PM

I have not ridden behind but I have been in an Epic watching some pros and the wake does seem quite nice with out slamming it with ballast. Similar to my X-star but less rampy and much narrower. Seemed similar to my old 205V but bigger. My only complaint is that I find the Epic cosmetically challenged. I know that should not matter, but I hope they redesign the top 30% of the hull in their next boat.

deltawake 05-18-2010 6:08 PM

Axis is the BEST wake for the money. Money aside, it's in the league with the best of the best. Epic throws a wake that people either love or hate. The Malibu and Axis hulls are not fussy. Just sink them and ride and they throw great wakes that most people really like. Nautiques tend to be pretty fussy- especially the current 210 hull. The X-star fully loaded is great. With less weight, it's underwhelming. Try an Axis. You won't be disappointed, and if you're in NorCal, get it from Boat Country. They are AWESOME.

irishrider92 05-19-2010 6:38 AM

I'm loving my 07 VLX. You NEED the power wedge though. Seems i can make the wake almost any shape i want which is handy for competitions.

cjh1669 05-19-2010 7:01 AM

I just got my VTX wake dialed in and love it.

05-19-2010 7:27 AM

2011 EPIC 23V !

I have one literally on the truck on it's way to me! I am not a dealer just an Insurance Agent who wanted the best. I know this is a thread about WAKES, but..... you also need to look at the company itself. I have become friends with the OWNER of Epic, and have his cell phone number and talk to him almost every other day. This would NEVER happen with any other company. You do get what you pay for, and in EPIC's case you also get GREAT PEOPLE. The owner of the company is actually flying up to stay with me next week as we put the boat on the water for the first time. That's right, HE is flying TO ME to make sure I am happy. So seriously, why would I buy anything else? This boat is ABSOLUTELY sick! Best people in the industry bar NONE! If you want anymore infomation FRED or anyone else hit me up. I spent about 6 months researching them and their company before I bought one. I talked with the owners weekly before buying and now much more since....so not only am I convinced this is the best WAKE, BOAT, and people on the market, I think for the MONEY you can't beat it. Just my 2cents....but I am getting one of the FIRST 2011 models out. Yes that is right 2011 model. They only make 150 boats per year and mine is already on it's way. I don't know exactly what number 2011 mine is, (I should ask) but I would imagine it may be a single digit. PM me if you want more info.

fredlap 05-19-2010 7:55 AM

Congrat man! It's realy ool to read how Epic people are! I'm done! I don't want anything else than a 23V! Except the 23E... lol!!!

dadthedriver 05-19-2010 8:02 AM

BabBoyRipper, We did sell the EPIC but a new One will be on the water shortly. A "new and different" :) EPIC that we are excited to try out. As soon as it is ready for pulls we will let you know so you can hit the new wake.

kent_harmon 05-19-2010 9:33 AM

Fred- Just get out and ride one man. Epics are sweet boats and they are decked out! But dont take every random hero's opinion on here. Its been said time and time again that you have to ride them and get your take on each boat. I was heavily looking at an epic a while back as well, but i ended up purchasing a SAN 210 because i loved the feel of the wake and the overall boat. Honestly, in the next two years work on your riding and demo some boats. And then when your ready to buy you will know what you want. Just my 2 cents bro.

cjh1669 05-19-2010 10:27 AM

Yeah demo away, don't buy based on others opinions. I bought my VTX after demoing quite a few boats. Everyone loved the SAN 210 wake on here, but I wasn't thrilled by it and I didn't like the boat itself once I got on the water with it. If I had taken the opinion of others I would have gotten a boat I wasn't happy with.

fredlap 05-19-2010 11:27 AM

I'm used to ride behind a Session with over 3000lbs and I really love the wake! My trick seems to be easier behind the Session than the 210 (the other boat I ride behind). I got more difficulties with my trip flip behind the SAN 210. I'm pretty sure the problem is me but...
I think the wake behind the Session can look like the Epic but how can I affirm this without trying one? I pretty you're better with the wake you ride most of the time! I'll try to be good behind a Epic...lol

cjh1669 05-19-2010 11:30 AM

Never buy a boat you don't try first, and also make sure you like the dealer, cause you're going to be close with them for the time you own the boat. I love the mastercrafts, but I met the MC dealer here in Denver and was not impressed.

Take the time, do the research and get out on as many boats as you can while the weather permits it.

etang789 05-19-2010 12:25 PM

I just got myself a 2010 SAN 210... moving up from the 2004 Moomba LSV

The straight up and super wide wake took a bit to get used to, but now I have gotten the feel to it. Now I usually ride with the only the stock rear tanks filled.

I would say its one of the best wakes out there, very similar to the MC x1

Boats that I have tired that are on my top list

X1 (slammed) - I cracked my necked from the first wake pop going up
Current X-star - very easy to ride on very rampy, havent tired it slammed
Current SAN 210 - very dense wake more straight up, took sometime to get used to
old SAN 210 - wow its like hitting a wall, very narrow wake

Next I want to try are
SAN 230

bbr 05-19-2010 12:44 PM

I agree with Gene. The SAN 230 from the Wake Games, is one of the best wakes that I have EVER been on. It'll boot the crap out of you, and you can just cruise in. Very nice.

fredlap 05-20-2010 8:37 AM

First time I see a wake thread without any pics.... congrat guys!!!! lol

Luker 05-20-2010 9:02 AM

^ If somebody had the time.... I would love to see an visual comparison from the boat of the top 5 or 6 wakes. The same camera, same zoom, same spot on the boat, every boat's best weight setup, etc... somebody should totally do that.

05-20-2010 9:12 AM

pictures of a wake aren't that important, riding that wake is much more important.

fredlap 05-20-2010 9:32 AM

I could be nice to be able to ride every wake guys have talked about!
It could be nice to see some wake pics to!

alans 05-20-2010 9:44 AM


kent_harmon 05-20-2010 9:45 AM

Is it just me, or does it really feel like Fred is not listening to a word anyone is saying?

fredlap 05-20-2010 10:09 AM

I'm listening the words I want to listen.... your don't help me! «go and try it» you said!!! I can't try every boats where I'm from because it's not very populare here and dealers ( of wakeboard boat) are rare!
If you have something helpfull to say... go for it, but at the end, don't forget that we only talk!!!

fredlap 05-20-2010 10:17 AM

The only «random hero opinion» I particulary believe is Ben C because of is son!!! I think he rides every top wakeboat on the market and Epic seems to be his choice! Tony can ride, he's a pro...

jeff_mn 05-20-2010 10:43 AM

how long have you worked for Epic now Fred?

innov8 05-20-2010 10:46 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Epic 23v wake is sick!!

We have been riding behind this Epic the last few weeks.

fredlap 05-20-2010 10:52 AM


fredlap 05-20-2010 10:52 AM

Jeff! Sick boat!!!

kent_harmon 05-20-2010 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by fredlap (Post 1587517)
The only «random hero opinion» I particulary believe is Ben C because of is son!!! I think he rides every top wakeboat on the market and Epic seems to be his choice! Tony can ride, he's a pro...

Thats right, and your not. He has demo'ed alot of boats and knows what he likes to ride behind now. As long as you keep this thread going on the answer is always going to be the same. In the long run your going to have to demo the boats anyway. Im not trying to be mean, its just the truth.

fredlap 05-20-2010 11:17 AM

I know that man!

fredlap 05-20-2010 1:31 PM

I just saw Murray ripping behind hi new 230 with 4000lbs! Awesome wake!!!

bbr 05-20-2010 1:37 PM

Jeff, that boat wrap is SIIIICK!!!

migs 05-20-2010 1:44 PM

the 210 wake isnt finiky at all. I know for a fact the 220 is , but the 210 is a wake machine.
whether i have a ton of weight or not - that boat just pushes out a clean wake -. just gotta speed up or slow down - the boat pretty much drives itself.
But like many have stated here - all these boats being mentioned will put out SICK wakes with weight - so anyone u pick will be money.
Just get the boat YOU & only YOU really like the best. Because if u end up getting something that everyone else thinks is the best, once u get it, youll always think about the other one in the back of your mind.

innov8 05-20-2010 2:44 PM

Thanks BBR!

We use Blue Sky Graphics out of Fort Worth Texas for all our wraps, Skip is the man, I give all the credit to Skip @ BSG.

fredlap 05-20-2010 9:14 PM

Awesome print! I love the 3D effect, the tint windows, everithing is perfect!

cjh1669 05-21-2010 6:40 AM

That wrap is kick ass

fredlap 05-21-2010 12:08 PM

Time for some wake pics! I never seen good shots of Axis, Tomcat, 230, Tige, etc.

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