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-   -   WS-420 sub volume control (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=778247)

shawndoggy 04-05-2010 7:28 PM

WS-420 sub volume control
 
Is the sub volume on the ws420 a subset of boat volume? Meaning, if I want sub with my tower speakers I need to have the in boat speakers up too? I just got mine hooked up but only had about ten minutes to play with it tonight (boat stored offsite) but it seemed like I could not get any bass with the tower speakers going alone.

you_da_man 04-05-2010 7:58 PM

That's what I figured out as well. I just got mine installed this weekend and played with the system for about an hour so far. Tower volume is just that...tower only.

shawndoggy 04-05-2010 8:44 PM

I'm sorta thinking I might switch it around the other way then so tower does boats and boats does tower. I can always turn the sub down with the tower speakers on, but it adds a lot to the sound in the boat too and my bullets are loud enough to provide more than enough in-boat sound.

shawndoggy 04-05-2010 9:30 PM

Gah! but then if I do that, the PA mic won't work right! Man, this is a bummer. I really thought I was going to have three zone volume control, not 2.1 zone.

jonyb 04-06-2010 3:27 AM

Sub volume is slaved off of the in-boat output. After all, subs ARE in-boat speakers.

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 5:32 AM

With as loud as the bullets are, especially on an illusion x tower, my in-boats are going to get very little use. But I'd sure like a little bass to fill in the bottom.

volzalum 04-06-2010 7:33 AM

Not recommending this, but you could run your sub off the sub out on your HU and bypass the 420 for it. Then use your HU to control the sub volume.

wetsounds1 04-06-2010 8:04 AM

The bass knob is a bass boost knob so the sub is part of the in boats volume. The EQ is split into 2 zones. Tower and In Boat/Sub.

A few customers want sub and tower on with no in boats. I feel that it sounds better if you have a little in boats. So to have it with towers up and sub up with a little in boats. All you have to do re tune your gains so with the in boat volume is barely up and sub boost maxed and get the sub pounding with the towers. Then when you want the in boats all the way up, you turn the in boat volume up and the bass boost down to have the system to the way you use it

It is all how you set the gains to how you want to use the system. So no worries just re tune it

Tim
Wet Sounds

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 8:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsounds1 (Post 1570133)
The bass knob is a bass boost knob so the sub is part of the in boats volume. The EQ is split into 2 zones. Tower and In Boat/Sub.

A few customers want sub and tower on with no in boats. I feel that it sounds better if you have a little in boats. So to have it with towers up and sub up with a little in boats. All you have to do re tune your gains so with the in boat volume is barely up and sub boost maxed and get the sub pounding with the towers. Then when you want the in boats all the way up, you turn the in boat volume up and the bass boost down to have the system to the way you use it

It is all how you set the gains to how you want to use the system. So no worries just re tune it

Tim
Wet Sounds

Thanks Tim. I'd already kinda thought of that... the only problem I see is that it wouldn't be "wife-proof". I.e. she cranks the in-boat volume without reducing the sub volume and KABOOM there goes the sub!

brian_b 04-06-2010 8:26 AM

Just to clarify, although on the 420 it says the knob is sub volume, but it actually works more like a gain or bass boost, yes?

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 8:35 AM

no, Brian, I think it is volume, but it's a subset of the inboat volume. Think of two daisy-chained pac-lc1's, where the first would be a "master" volume, and the second would be sub. The master is controlling the input into the sub so the sub's volume is constrained by the master volume first, and then the sub volume second.

david_e_m 04-06-2010 9:45 AM

shawndoggy,

Its not a perfect solution but if you want a little wider control for your subwoofer than was intended then you can supplement the WS420 with a PAC LC-1 on the subwoofer output and gain the sub amplifier extra hot. This way as you minimize the in-boat volume you can compensate by opening up the LC-1 for the sub. And, this would be far better than trying to boost the sub via the WS420 paragraphic control which is equalization rather than overall gain. Again, this solution will not provide total sub restoration but a partial improvement.

David
Earmark Marine

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 10:08 AM

Thanks David. Great minds think alike. I can definitely add an LC-1, but it seems so cludgey, and it's just one more knob in a sea of knobs!

My sub and tower speaker amp is a Kicker zx700.5. Amp 1 is bridged to one Bullet 770, amp 2 is bridged to the other. The sub amp runs my sub. I have (but have not installed) a kicker remote bass control. Would I get the result as the LC1 I unplugged the sub rcas from the amp (they are listed as "optional" in the manual), thereby tying the sub's output to the input for the towers, and used the remote bass control?

brian_b 04-06-2010 10:11 AM

From 420 manual:

1. Main Volume. (1a) Outside Ring= Volume Control for the tower speakers. (1b)
Inside Knob=Volume Control for the in boat speakers/subwoofers.
2. Microphone Volume. Adjusts the volume of the talkback microphone. (you will
need to test your system to determine the maximum volume achievable without
feedback. Turning the microphone volume level up very high can result in
feedback. It is recommended to find the maximum level for the microphone and
leave the control set at this level)
3. Input Selector Switch. This switch selects between the main input or auxiliary
input
4. Illumination. This switch selects between Red or Blue background Illumination.
5. Subwoofer Boost/Frequency. The knob adjusts the subwoofer boost (5a). The
ring adjusts the subwoofer frequency (5b).

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian_b (Post 1570205)
From 420 manual:

1. Main Volume. (1a) Outside Ring= Volume Control for the tower speakers. (1b)
Inside Knob=Volume Control for the in boat speakers/subwoofers.
2. Microphone Volume. Adjusts the volume of the talkback microphone. (you will
need to test your system to determine the maximum volume achievable without
feedback. Turning the microphone volume level up very high can result in
feedback. It is recommended to find the maximum level for the microphone and
leave the control set at this level)
3. Input Selector Switch. This switch selects between the main input or auxiliary
input
4. Illumination. This switch selects between Red or Blue background Illumination.
5. Subwoofer Boost/Frequency. The knob adjusts the subwoofer boost (5a). The
ring adjusts the subwoofer frequency (5b).

my bad / good catch.... but when you turn the "boost" down it does also reduce volume... as opposed to an amp's gain and boost, where for a given gain the boost will just accentuate one frequency over others. In other words on my amp if I have my sub gain set at half I can have the "boost" at zero but still hear it. The WS420's "boost" also seems to attenuate the signal to the sub (ie. "turn down the gain"), no?

david_e_m 04-06-2010 2:55 PM

shawndoggy,

I'm not sure about the Kicker but Phil will know as will others on here who own this amplifier.

Typically a bass control on an amplifier is actually a boost control for a fixed EQ frequency and slope. That would be redundant with the WS420 and yet not as effective as the WS420 which is paragraphic since it controls both the boost amplitude plus it varies the center frequency of the boost.

A few JL amplifiers from the HD and CD series provide a fullrange gain controller (less the crossover filtering) which is exactly what your described needs are. Again, the easiest solution for you is to add an LC-1 and re-tune your lowpass amplifier. Neatly installing it to avoid clutter shouldn't be difficult.

On another note, the more you boost the bass EQ to try and produce additional gain the more the 'Q' will effectively narrow. And, this narrow spike will rob you of your tonal construction. You need a level controller that won't alter equalization or the crossover frequency. So back to the LC-1.

David
Earmark Marine

shawndoggy 04-06-2010 3:24 PM

Thanks David. Hopefully Phil will weigh in on what exactly the sub remote does on the Kicker amps.

joesell 04-06-2010 6:26 PM

I have two ZX 700.5's. I'd like to know exacty how the sub remotes work too.

I by-passed the sub knob on my WS 420 as well. I actually do have subs on my tower (transom), so I wanted to be able to control the inside, and outside subs.

wakeborder5 04-06-2010 10:15 PM

Some of the stuff you guys are talking about is over my head, but an option I haven't noticed being brought up is one of those PAC LC-1's being used on the output to the boat speakers from the WS-420 to the boat amp. That way the EQ would still control the overall volume and then with the LC-1 you could turn down the boat speakers to a lower level while keeping the sub at an even volume with the tower speakers. Sorry if I'm way off.

shawndoggy 04-07-2010 5:27 AM

Hey Ray that's a good idea too-- effectively turning the tables on the ws420 so the eq controls sub volume and in boats are controlled independently. Good thinking. I thnk I'm just going to pull the trigger on the LC1 And a couple of very short RCAs and call it good.

philwsailz 04-07-2010 8:02 AM

Guys-

On the Kicker ZX700.5 you have two different sub and bass controls.

The bass-boost knob on the face of the amp turns up and down a single EQ band centered at 45 hz. It is not a volume control or a gain control, it is only boosting a narrow range of frequencies with a fixed low-q EQ curve. You should not find yourself needing to turn this knob up too much, excessive use of the bass boost can cause problems as well as point to other problems with your system.

The remote bass knob provided with the RJ45, (telephone) cable is truly a volume controller for the subwoofer section of the 5-channel amp. It literally, exactly, and only raises and lowers the output of the subwoofer amp section. The purpose varies, but in general, one can use it to turn up the bass for songs where the bass is lacking for your personal taste, or you can turn it down for songs where there is too much bass.

There are lots of ways to set up the amp when you are using the remote bass knob. I will be totally frank: if an installer is setting up a system where there is a probability for ignorance and/or abuse on behalf of an uneducated consumer, (we used to call them "huh-masters") he might turn the remote bass knob all the way up prior to setting the gains on the subwoofer amp section. This will help prevent the uneducated consumer from turning the loudness control on his head unit on, turning the bass tone control to MAX and then cranking the sound up so loud that the woofer's cone jumps right out of the speaker, or worse, catches fire, or at least, just sounds really nasty... With the installer setting the remote bass knob all the way up prior to setting gains, the "huh-master" can only turn it down; his chances of ruining the system are minimized.

Now, for my own use in my own boat.... :D

I generally put the remote bass knob on my 700.5 at the 12-o'clock position prior to doing all my gains setting. That way the sub blends with the system in the "middle" position. If the bass is too much for my ears, I can turn it down. If I want more, I can turn it up. In this setup, I have the potential to abuse the system for sure, but I will usually err on the side of conservative, and if I hear warning sounds of amp clipping, or of a speaker reaching its mechanical limits, I am aware of it and can turn things back down.

Sort of on the topic and while we are talking about gains, and remote volume, Kicker has a new marine electronics accessory coming soon. It is an active two-zone preamp volume controller. I need to see where the press release is on this, but we should be announcing soon. Stay tuned for more details, but in general, you will be able to take a head unit's line level, (RCA) signal on the input side, and have two different outputs each with their own volume control. The volume controls are on remote boxes with cables, like the remote bass knob for the 700.5, so you can put the knobs anywhere in the boat you want to. The device is a pre-amp with gain so you will be able to have the outputs set at the same voltage level as the input, or you can have the outputs at a lower voltage level than the input, or you can have the outputs at a higher voltage level... up to 9 volts...

Hope that helps clarify the remote bass knob! It really is a level control, not an EQ control...

Phil
Kicker

shawndoggy 04-07-2010 9:03 AM

So Phil, if I'm reading what you wrote correctly, the remote bass knob is basically like a second gain adjustment that will give me from zero gain to 100% of the gain as set on the amp. So if the gain on the amp is set halfway up, the knob would allow me to adjust to anywhere from zero to halfway up (the max as set on the amp). Does that sound right? Sounds like exactly what I'm looking for....

Except, getting back to the WS-420, are the tower and inboat signals high passed or full range? If the tower signal is already high passed at 80hz, then I'd be starving my sub amp of a signal to work with in that range.

david_e_m 04-07-2010 9:32 AM

Ray,

That makes perfect sense to me. Once you have an LC-1 and a one foot RCA jumper you can try it both ways and see which route better fits your actual usage. But I like your idea better since you don't have to re-tune the amplifier.

David
Earmark Marine

philwsailz 04-09-2010 6:50 AM

Shawndoggy-

You are exactly correct.

Phil
Kicker


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