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-   -   Upgrading ballast, Jabsco questions (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=768350)

jonyb 01-11-2010 7:55 AM

My 07 Supra OEM ballast hasn't worked right since I've owned the boat. I'm no longer replacing sprinkler valves or dump pumps. <BR> <BR>I'm considering installing 4 Jabsco reversible pumps. 1 for the 1100# center sac, 1 for each rear side sac, and an extra pump for temporary surf sacs. The plan would be to add 3 more grates to the bottom of the boat so each pump would have a water intake, and a spot to dump. No more draining through the holes below the deck and rubrail. I'm assuming all I'll need are the 4 pumps (that come with switches), hose, and fittings. <BR> <BR>Any suggestions?

bchesley 01-11-2010 8:01 AM

You pretty much have it. There will be people telling you that you dont need to drill the extra holes, but I did and think its more effective that way. I like the idea of the fourth for surfing as I only have three right now. The only thing that I would add are some inline check valves in your vent lines. What they will do is help the pumps to pull the bags completely empty like a vacuum. I used some inexpensive ones from west marine.

tre 01-11-2010 8:53 AM

My 09 Supra has the exact setup you are talking about. It came from the factory that way and works great. Highly recommend it.

jonyb 01-11-2010 10:45 AM

tre, your's came with 3 reversible pumps? <BR> <BR>Brad, I was wondering about the check valves. The single grate can only bring in so much water. Having 1 for each pump will allow a lot more flow into the boat, and for dumping as well.

phenom_1819 01-11-2010 10:52 AM

John, the 09s and 10s come stock with the setup you want to install. I was going to do the same install until I started researching costs. It will cost considerably more than it would seem (well over $2k), and would imagine more wiring and plumbing than you would think. Some guys on the moomba site have played around with options. Consensus seems to be that adding a second fill pump using the existing manifold is the best way to go. Good luck with whichever route you choose to go.

ironj32 01-11-2010 11:40 AM

"Well over $2K"??? Does that inlcude the bags? The pumps should be around $250 each. Check valves around $25. Wiring maybe $50 or $75. Flexible PVC tubing might be upwards of $200 (get it on-line...much cheaper), depending on how much you need. Thru-hull's are like $5 each. Add on $50 for misc fittings (t's, water hose clamps, etc...). I figure that if you already have the bags, it should cost you around $1400-$1500. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by ironj32 on January 11, 2010)

tre 01-11-2010 12:40 PM

Yes, my 09 came with 3 jabsco reversible pumps (one for each bag). There is one hole in the bottom of the boat for each pump and they fill and drain via the bottom. The only holes in the side of the boat are to vent each bag.

wakemikey 01-11-2010 12:44 PM

John you are always up to something. What do you have now as far as intakes? Manifold? If they are reversable pumps I dont know why you would need more thruhulls. Also note they are somewhat loud, draw a lot of power and are somewhat slower. <BR> <BR>Have you considered replaceing the gate / sprinker valves (which are the real problem)? Who was it that posted their solution of using the anti syphon valves? I also saw someone else with another great solution, he used a one way check valve, but the spring type. That way it sealed unless there was significant pressure from the pump turning on. <BR> <BR>I have had absolutly ZERO problems with my Simer pump over two years, it has performed flawlessly and at $75 it is actually reasonably priced.

fman 01-11-2010 2:41 PM

I have a Supra '08 22V and I completely re-did my system using Tsunami pumps. I have been very pleased with the results. It takes about 7-8 minutes to fill 1900 lbs of ballast. No more sprinkler valves, I chose the aerator pumps because of the cost and reliability. I also did not want to drill any more holes in my boat. <BR> <BR>Check out the link, it gives you a step by step on how I did it. Total cost was about $400, which also included venting the bags. Might be worth a look. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4595" target="_blank">http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4595</a>

jonyb 01-11-2010 4:07 PM

Travis, we all know what you did, but it'll cost me $400 for those parts, and still have 1 pump. <BR> <BR>I'm figuring the 4 pumps will cost around $800. I own a car audio/marine audio and security shop, wiring and labor is nothing. Bags are already there, most of the hoses are already there. <BR> <BR>To those that asked, my boat has 1 800gph pump, 3 crappy sprinkler valves that never have worked right in the last 2 years I've owned the boat (from new), and 3 small pumps that dump the bags from a second connection on the bag to 3 thru-hull fittings on the side of the boat just below the rubrail. That's what came factory from Supra. I've replaced countless dump pumps and sprinkler valves. Fill time (when it works properly) is about 20 minutes, sometimes more. When I add an extra portable pump and bag, I get water all over the boat. <BR> <BR>I'm not worried about power consumption, I've got a $2000 battery and charging system. <BR> <BR>I'm not worried about noise, because i want it to work right. <BR> <BR>Mikey, you have ZERO problems with anything. Do I need to remind you of my stories? I'm not dreaming this stuff up. You've probably added that yourself. <BR> <BR>At this point I'll pay almost anything to have a working ballast system. <BR> <BR>Thanks for all the help so far.

fman 01-11-2010 4:19 PM

Hey John, <BR> <BR>Did not realize that was you. Actually I have three seperate Tsunami 800 pumps, one for each bag. There are pro's and con's to both. <BR> <BR>I do believe the aerator pumps will take much more abuse than the impeller style. You can run an aerator pump dry with no problems, you will burn up impellers if this happens with the JABSCO's. <BR> <BR>Also keep in mind, JABSCO's are rated for 10 GPM (gallons per min) and the Tsunami 800's are rated at 13 GPM. If you went with the Tsunami 1200's you would be up in the 20 GPM range. For the max. fill I would recommend 3 Tsunami 1200's with a seperate intake for each pump, this will far outperform the JABSCO in fill times. At 60 GPM you could fill 2000 lbs of ballast in 4 minutes. (2000 lbs is 240 gallons). <BR> <BR>The only downfall to aerator pumps is they will not prime and they must be mountd lower than the draft line in the boat. The impeller pumps can be mounted anywhere because they will pull there own prime. Aerator pumps also need the vented loops to prevent water from being forced into the bags when they are turned off. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by fman on January 11, 2010)

chilidog 01-11-2010 4:36 PM

John I have the same type system planned for my boat and have bought almost all the parts. <BR> <BR>Couple questions....how will you know when the bags are completely empty so to not run the pumps dry?? <BR> <BR>if you plan on looking at them to be sure they are empty then shutting down the pumps that's one thing but I wanted fully automated ballast where all I have to do is flip the switch, so I chose to go with thru hulls on the drivers side for drains so when they are done emptying I can see that no more water is coming out the side. <BR> <BR>Also if you are running 3-4 pumps you should be fine with a 1" hole in the bottom. I believe you can flow 60gpm through the 1" hole/grate. I think the jabscos flow 9 gpm. As long as it doesn't neck down too much, and even at a 3/4" coupler it shouldn't reduce that much. So making a solo intake for each pump probably isn't necessary from the research and advice I have come across. <BR> <BR>Between the manifold and the pump you put a check valve then between the check and the pump put a tee with a hose going out the side so when your reverse it goes out the side thru hull, if you choose to do it that way. <BR> <BR>Look up wakemakers and talk to Jason, he helped me out a ton and they have a schematic for this type of system on their website. They also have every part you need to make this happpen. (I don't work for them) <BR> <BR>Another option is to get the timer that shuts off the pumps when they empty but its pretty expensive, haven't looked at that route myself. I understand that the pumps have run dry protection but for how much these pumps cost I didn't want to go against the built in safeguards every time I use them.

tre 01-11-2010 5:27 PM

I can answer a few of the concernes about the Jabsco pumps. In my 09 Supra there are 3 pumps. When they are empty, the pumps will auto-shutoff after 10 seconds and flash a red light on the switch that controls the pumps. No worry about burning up the pumps. They also auto-shut off when full. There is an adjustable timer that can be programmed to shut the pump off after a certain amount of time. The front 1100 lb bag is programmed at 11min. from the factory (which is a bit much as the bag is full before this). The rear bags shut off after 4 min. and are full. Since each bag has a dedicated pump, the 2000 lb factory ballast fills in 11 min. I can upgrade the rears to 750lb bags and adjust the timers and the whole 2600 lb will still fill in 11 min. As far as I know, the timers and run dry protection are on all the new Jabso ballast puppy pumps (not 100% sure). You can find them for $175 on line (was looking before I purchased my new boat). They come with the switches as I recall. So far I have never had an issue with fill or empty. It fills 100% every time and the bags are 100% empty every time. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by tre on January 11, 2010)

chilidog 01-11-2010 5:45 PM

Tre, <BR> <BR>Do you know if the shut off on empty is from the timer or from the run dry protection? I bought my pumps with switches 2 summers ago, I wonder if this is a new feature or if they are unchanged since I bought mine. Also do you have one timer per pump or is it a brain that controls all three pumps and can be adjusted independently per pump?

jonyb 01-11-2010 6:15 PM

How will I know when the bags are empty? From where they dump now, I can see the water coming out. You'd think that when the water stops, the bag is empty, but that's never the case. For the rear I had to build a set of ramps so the drain hole is the lowest physical point of the bag, and they now dump completely. The front, I always have to get the boat moving forward to get all the water out of that one. <BR> <BR>Travis, you're pumps don't prime, so I'm not interested in those. I have a system that doesn't work now, I don't want something that you have to "play with" to get it started. Also, like they've said, the Jabsco's have the auto shut-down when they're dry. <BR> <BR>With the Supra sacs, you'll never know when they're empty until you open the lockers to see if they really are.

fman 01-11-2010 8:20 PM

John, <BR> <BR>I used the Tsunami's for 5 months last summer and never once did I have a problem with priming. As I mentioned, if you mount them properly in the boat they will always prime because they are lower than the draft of the boat. Being lower than the draft water is forced into the manifold. As soon as I put my boat in the water I can see water in the fill port line of the pump, its a fail safe system. <BR> <BR>Like I mentioned both have some pro's and con's. I think overall the Tsunami system will have less problems. There has already been a problem posted on the Moomba site about water filling a bag on an '09 Moomba because the JABSCO failed to stop water from entering the bag because the impeller went bad. I have also seen other posts of users on this site with Mastercrafts having to replace impellers which is $40-50 a hit. If speed is what you are after having a 4 minute fill time with 2,000 lbs of ballast would be awesome with the Tsunami 1200 pumps. <BR> <BR>Either way, regardless of what you choose you will be much better off than the pre '08 systems from Supra. Good luck, I am sure it will work out well for you.

jonyb 01-12-2010 3:36 AM

Not really concerned with the speed, just reliability.

you_da_man 01-12-2010 6:57 AM

Seems like people who have the Jabsco pumps are going back and forth on which color impeller to use. Not only that, didn't Jabsco themselves start installing one color over another because of customer complaints? I just purchased an 08 Moomba XLV with GGI system. I have the dealer doing the install on the GG3 system in a week or two and they gave me the choice on the 08 system or the 09 Jabsco system. I chose the 08 system with the 1 fill pump and 3 drain pumps and the dreaded sprinkler valve. I did this because I'm going to immediately remove the 1 fill up and the sprinkler valve manifold, make my own manifold and use 3 Tsunami 800 pumps powered off the wires from the sprinkler valves. Instead of using vented loops I'm going to route the intake line near the driver seat and have a shutoff valve that I can just reach to prevent water coming in while underway. The cost of the Jabsco pumps is a little high in my opinion for something that has mixed reviews about impeller sticking or being too soft (letting water in/out). Also, Jabsco pumps can burn up if ran dry and 1 Jabsco draws more amps than 3 Tsunami pumps. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by you_da_man on January 12, 2010)

wakebdr2002 01-12-2010 7:24 AM

If you are worried about burning up the Jabscos you can put in the pump timers (available here <a href="http://www.wakemakers.com/mastercraft-ballast-pump-timer-module.html" target="_blank">http://www.wakemakers.com/mastercraft-ballast-pump-timer-module.html</a>). These timers will shut the pumps off after a set fill time. When emptying they will shut off after the set time or when it senses a current drop. They are the same thing Mastercraft and Supra use for the factory systems and should keep from burning up the expensive pumps.

towboat_222 01-12-2010 11:15 AM

John I got a hand pump up here that would work.

jonyb 01-12-2010 11:25 AM

hand pump.... HA! <BR> <BR>So it's $100 for each timer, and I'd need 2? I'll just pay attention to what's going on and skip those. <BR> <BR><i>The Jabsco Wakeboard Ballast Puppy is designed to pump water into Wakeboard Liquid Ballast Tanks and when reversed will also pump water out of them. It has a flow rate of 540 gallons per hour, so it can fill most ballast tanks in about five minutes. <u><b>It is equipped with a Run-Dry Protection Device to automatically shut-off the pump and protect the impeller from run-dry damage should the pump be mistakenly left on after the Ballast Tank is empty</b></u>. The Ballast Puppy also features ignition protetion which allows the use of this pump in the engine compartment unlike its less expensive cousin the Simer Pump. This is the same pump found used to fill and drain OEM ballast sytems in Mastercraft Wakeboard Boats, 2009 Supra Wakeboard Boats, 2009 Moomba Wakeboard Boats, and Centurion Wakeboard Boats. <BR></i>

didierz 01-12-2010 2:01 PM

I use 4 Johnson Ultra ballast pumps,One on each rear sac one on center and one for both bow sacs. cheaper than Jabsco, heavy duty with better flow 13GPM at 3 ft head pressure. Since the smallest diameter of any pump is the inlet, intake scuppers, strainers or thru hulls only need to match that diameter. I did two 1 1/2" brass scuppers for each pair of pumps. You will never starve the pumps with that size. I used above water line overflows with one ways but under water will work as well. You can hear a noticable pitch change when the sacs are like rasins when empty, And like some one else said they are run dry protected as well. If you plumb the rear surf sacs correctly, you can empty one side and fill the other and draw fresh water into the side you are filling to. essentially increasing the flow rate. Pics on request.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768699.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768700.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768701.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768702.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768703.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/768704.jpg" alt="Upload">

davomaddo 01-18-2010 4:32 PM

Keep it Simple - Jabsco pumps are not simple at all. The impellers wear out, they aren't cheap to replace, they have timers that you have to set and they get randomly reset, and they are expensive. The Jabsco pumps sometimes shut off if you work them too hard. <BR> <BR>The old plastic pumps are nice because they are simple, relatively cheap, and have no maintainance. When seomthing goes wrong, you throw it away and buy a new one.

ironj32 01-18-2010 5:03 PM

"Jabsco pumps are not simple at all." - I'll have to disagree. I think my Jabsco's are super simple. With Jabsco's you only need one pump to fill and drain...the others you need two separate pumps. <BR> <BR>"The impellers wear out, they aren't cheap to replace," - Not if you take care of them. Plus, they are super easy to replace. They are not that expensive either...$25 or so, I believe. <BR> <BR>"they have timers that you have to set and they get randomly reset," - You don't have to have timers. I don't, and I know many others who don't as well. <BR> <BR>"and they are expensive." - Yes they are. But they are self priming, reversable, and durable. <BR> <BR>"The Jabsco pumps sometimes shut off if you work them too hard." - I have never had mine turn off in 3 years, and I fill and empty 4000 pounds of ballast into my boat twice a day, 3-5 days a week (from April-November. <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by ironj32 on January 18, 2010)

tampawake 01-19-2010 9:40 AM

Curious how do you take care of the impellers? I have the jabsco and what color are you running??

baitkiller 01-19-2010 10:06 AM

Gentlemen have any of you used the Jabsco Cyclone pump? <BR><a href="http://www.jabsco.com/products/marine/circulation_pumps/low_pressure_centrifugal_pump_50840_series/iid_2098-item2098/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jabsco.com/products/marine/circulation_pumps/low_pressure_centrifugal_pump_50840_series/iid_2098-item2098/index.htm</a> <BR> <BR>I have struggled for years with bait systems and water flow issues. Now into my first wake boat and thinking of ballast this pump would be my first choice. Not cheap but surely the best at 29GPM and stainless steel. (I ride in the salt) It is not self priming but who cares. <BR> Dumping of course presents another issue but I'm not there yet. <BR>I would like you opinion on this pump please. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by baitkiller on January 19, 2010)

jrbishop4 01-19-2010 5:54 PM

jonyb, the Jabsco pumps would be a great upgrade. I always thought that the setup that Supra and Moomba had was bad. I had a few problems with them on the moomba. I have had no problems with the pumps on my Mastercraft filling 2400 lbs. 3-4 times a week and my impellers still look new. I would say don't mess with the timers if they are the same ones that Mastercraft uses they are a pain and I am in planning on bypassing them this winter. <BR> <BR>Good luck with the project. How does Josh like the Moomba?

jonyb 01-20-2010 7:58 PM

The Moomba was sold before Summer was even over. I don't know what happened.... Guess he's just not a boater.

davomaddo 01-26-2010 4:34 PM

jay I am glad to hear your experience has been better than mine. <BR> <BR>Impellers are easy to replace once you get to the pump. Accessability is the issue. <BR> <BR>If you install them yourself, you can make sure they are easily accessable.

jonyb 01-26-2010 6:03 PM

I'll be doing this install myself and since the boat is 24', there's plenty of room between the transom and the engine.

jonyb 02-03-2010 8:53 PM

Back to the top.... <BR> <BR>My boat is going back to the dealer for some work. It looks like they'll be upgrading my ballast system to what's OEM on the newer boats, which is 3 Jabsco pumps. I'm gonna have them add a 4th that's plumbed in so that I can fill an external sack for surfing or whatever. <BR> <BR>Can anyone give me a parts list independent of the dealer just to make sure we're on the same page? <BR> <BR>I know I'll need the 4 pumps, I'm not sure how many scuppers are on the new boat, but mine has 1. I'd like at least to have 2, so 1 for each 2 pumps. The boat already has 3 switches since it has the Gravity III system. <BR> <BR>Mikey, any ideas?

wakebdr2002 02-04-2010 5:33 AM

My '09 has 3 scuppers with a brass shut off at each one. They have 1" line going to each pump and 1" line from the pump to each bag. The overflow lines are 3/4". You can get most of the parts from wakemakers.com. Some of the quick connects and the hose is cheaper from <a href="http://www.flow-rite.com" target="_blank">www.flow-rite.com</a>. I have ordered from both companies before and they both had fast shipping and good service. The pumps are all mounted in the port locker on the transom and covered with a carpeted panel.


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