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-   -   Ballast design critique... (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748091)

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 9:21 AM

Been doing a lot of searching and planning and wanted to run this by everyone to see if i am missing anything. I am going with aerator type pumps, i just cant justify ($) reversible. Comments? <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/748092.jpg" alt="Upload">

polarbill 11-19-2009 9:30 AM

It looks like a lot of of pumps for one through hull? What keeps water from pushing through the fill pumps into the bags when you want to leave them empty or will they just not fill because they are above the floor? What is the purpose of the ball valve things on the empty/overflow on the rear bags?

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 9:40 AM

well the ball valve from the thru hull will stop water from entering bags from thru fill pumps. The ball valves on vents are for surfing because i stack bags on top of the existing bags and this will prevent bleed out.

05mobiuslsv 11-19-2009 9:44 AM

If that's the 2" thru hull for the water pickup for the motor it would work with the 4 pumps but don't try and run the motor when the fill pumps are on. You'll also want check valves before the fill pumps to keep water from being sucked out of your bags by the water pump on the engine. <BR> <BR>Can you confirm if this is a separate thru hull or not, what size? Looks like a well thought out system to me.

denverd1 11-19-2009 10:33 AM

looks pretty good. You'll want an easy way to close off the whole system. the main ball valve would work, you could also look at sprinkler valves or RV gate valves. I'd go 2" dedicated intake scoop to feed those pumps. <BR> <BR>Should be fast as hell w/ 8 pumps. I'm running a similar system w/ 4 pumps and it rocks. Aerators rock, you just need to think about a few more things than impeller pump systems. Looks like you have those covered. Good luck and keep us posted.

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 10:42 AM

How much do four reversible pumps cost versus eight of the aerator pumps? Then figure in extra wiring and switches for the four additional pumps, plus plumbing and check valves. Why do you need two empty pumps for the front bag and only one supply pump? <BR> <BR>With that many pumps working off one inlet you will have to make sure every valve is closed to work the others, or you will end up having to do a lot of priming in my experience.

polarbill 11-19-2009 10:42 AM

Is the ball valve the brass main shutoff you have pictured right next to the intake through hull? Does that mean you would close and open that everytime you fill/empty?

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 11:09 AM

It is a separate thru hull not touching the raw water intake for engine. the blue circle is a generic designation for ballast intake thru hull or thru hulls. How do u calculate the needed diameters for flow? I have thought also about using electric valves that will open when the feed pumps are activated <BR> <BR>reason for 2 empties on bow bag is because of how it sits its possible for one leg to retain water if the empty pump is only on one side <BR> <BR>as for price, i have 2 pumps currently on my factory system that i am going to re-purpose. I think even with extra plumbing, valving and wiring it still will not come close to paying $200+ each for 4 impeller pumps ($800 plus total) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by liquiddiet on November 19, 2009)

ord27 11-19-2009 11:13 AM

food for thought.... <BR> <BR>looks pretty good. There are some good comments and questions here.... <BR>I have had both types of systems. On the aerator type, I had a manifold that was below the water line. A gate valve was used to allow or prevent the manifold from filling. I wish that I had a light that would tell me when the valve was open. I was always forgetting if it was open or closed. <BR> <BR>The main disadvantage with the aerator type for me, was the need for drain pumps at the bag. It made it difficult to move the bags. I am always removing bags in order to clean the boat, or for allowing the carpet to properly dry.

denverd1 11-19-2009 12:11 PM

you could think about T'ing the "legs" of the front back together and running one drain pump up there. In fact, I have two bags up front and one drain pump for both. Also, its pretty easy to add ports to a bag if they're in the wrong spot. <BR> <BR>Aerator pumps are the shiz. They just take a little forethought in your design. <BR> <BR>Cliff, sounds like quick disconnects would help. Old ones leaked pretty bad, not sure on new stuff.

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 12:13 PM

Why not go with two big pumps and a manifold?

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 12:20 PM

i am going to use quick connects on everything so if i need to i can pull out the bags easily. <BR> <BR>Sam, <BR>2 big pumps? as in what kind? how could you control filling of each bag individually?

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 12:23 PM

Nacho, i am going to use my slower stock pumps for emptying the bow sac, so not really too worried about it being overkill

05mobiuslsv 11-19-2009 12:25 PM

Ryan I've heard that a 3/4" through hull is good for about 2000 gph.

newty 11-19-2009 12:29 PM

You can also loose the vent lines if you put a swing check on the discharge and make sure the bags are void of air the first time you use them. <BR>The other thing to consider if you want to save a little doe, is make the original vent line on the floor sack an overflow fill to the integrated bow sac. You will just need a spring check on the floor sack empty line to make enough pressure to overflow to the bow. If you have big sacs in the back then I'll bet both of those front bags will fill faster, even with one pump. I did mine that way and it works really well. <BR>If the bow sack is in a relatively flat area you would only need one drain pump.

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 12:50 PM

Newty, i did think about removing vent lines and moving the check valves to the empty lines. Is that how you did yours?

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 12:57 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>By Ryan (liquiddiet) on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 11:20 am: <BR>Sam, <BR>2 big pumps? as in what kind? how could you control filling of each bag individually?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>Well if you are going to only have one inlet why not just one pump with a manifold directing where the water goes. You could use the biggest pump that you can find. Use electric solenoid valves at the manifold. Depending on the size of the inlet you will be limited on speed regardless of the number of pumps. This way you could just use two pumps, one for fill, one for empty and four solenoid valves. You could even empty out of the same hole you fill with. If you get a reversible pump you only need one... <BR> <BR>I understand that you normally would not do this, but with only one inlet hole to begin with what is the difference? Your limiting factor either way is the size of the inlet.

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 1:04 PM

well my bug thing for my system is having the bags empty and overflow above the waterline so that i can tell when they are full without opening compartments. <BR> <BR>I dont know of a large cost effective pump to accomplish what you are proposing. Do u have a pump in mind that you think could compete with 4 tsunami's? Also electric solenoid valves are the same $ if not more than tsunami pumps. That is just my rational.

newty 11-19-2009 1:21 PM

Yes that is how mine is set up. The only difference is I still have the sprinkler valves to control flow. A waist gait would work pretty well but be sure its approved marine use.

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 1:23 PM

You will be limited by the size of the inlet hole, not the size of the pumps... but for giggles lets say that you get the Tsunami 1200 GPH pumps... <BR> <BR>1200 GPH X 4 = 4800 GPH @ $100 X 4 = $400 <BR> <BR>Now lets compare a basic 12V remote water pump for a small block chevy: <BR> <BR>55 GPM x 60 (60 mins/1 hour) = 3,300 GPH @ $385 <BR> <BR>and I still think that with only 1 inlet hole you will not reach the maximum capacity of the Tsunami pumps... <BR> <BR>You could use this pump or any number of others... <BR> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEZ-WP316R/" target="_blank">Meziere Pump</a> <BR> <BR>Of course this is thinking out of the box and is not using fishing boat parts... <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/748135.jpg" alt="Upload">

newty 11-19-2009 1:24 PM

The other thing I did originally is when I planned on stacking bags in the back I used spring checks on the discharges to build a little back pressure so the water wouldn't leak by from the weight.

jonblarc7 11-19-2009 1:25 PM

Supra uses Electric soleniods on there systems they are not reliable and cost to much. That is why this winter I'm going to replace thier system with three tsunamis. <BR> <BR>But Ryan if you're going to already open and close a ball valve for your fill pumps I would use one pump and a manuel manifold. Rule makes a 2000 gph pump (think this is the supra fill pump for all three of my bags) <BR> <BR>One more suggestion after your fill pumps run a loop or get this<a href="http://www.wakemakers.com/3-4-inch-vented-loop.html" target="_blank">http://www.wakemakers.com/3-4-inch-vented-loop.html</a> and mount it as high as you can right after your pumps then run a line to your bags. It will keep your bag from filling while under way as long as your not using a scooper style intake. Then you can leave your ball valve open at all time and just have it for emergency.

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 1:35 PM

i was looking at the tsunami 1200's for fill <BR> <BR>1200 GPH X 4 = 4800 GPH @ <b>$40</b> X 4 = $160 <BR> <BR>and the 800's for empty because the screw straight into my fly highs

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 1:39 PM

You are still limited by hole size...

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 1:57 PM

i agree, does anyone have the throughput's for the different size thru hull diameters

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 2:03 PM

You can calculate it yourself... Look up Bernoulli's Principle...

denverd1 11-19-2009 2:12 PM

1.5" on my intake. for two Rule 1100's.

duffymahoney 11-19-2009 3:39 PM

Centurion boats come stock with mayfair 1000 gph 3/4 thread aerator pumps. You can get them in 90 degree or straight thread. The work great and are cheap like 25 bucks or so. I hate the attwoods 1 1/4 thread. I would trade the 3/4 thread for 200 gph any day of the week!

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 3:43 PM

I still want to see someone use the 55 <b>GPM</b> pump... I know they can move a ton of water!

tre 11-19-2009 3:57 PM

Ryan, here is the problem with that setup. The aerator pumps let water in while moving so you need solenoid valves to close off the through hull - the ball valve will only do it if you manually close/open every time. Your drain lines need to be more forward then the sac it drains or the sacs will empty while getting on plane and moving. They will start to empty through the pump due to gravity since the front of the boat is now higher then the back (even though the pump is off). Aerator pumps don't prime reliably no matter how well the system is designed / installed. You will have issues getting the pumps primed to fill/empty. Trust me, I've had that setup and it is a headache. Just buy two (or even four) self priming reversable pumps and call it a day. It will be a more simple system to install, much easier to maintain, and will be more reliable (fill and empty every time without constantly screwing with stuff). <BR> <BR>Blair, Supra no longer uses aerator pumps and solenoids starting in 2009. I have a 2009 Supra which has factory reversable pumps. This works much better (always works 100% of the time and is faster then the old Supra setup). There is a reason Supra dumped the aerator/soleniod setup.

05mobiuslsv 11-19-2009 4:51 PM

Malibu uses aerator pumps and they work great all of the time, I've never had an issue with any of the pumps. I've never had an issue with filling on their own either, that's what the vented loop is for on the fill lines.

liquiddiet 11-19-2009 8:47 PM

yea i am using aerator pumps in my existing setup now and have had no problems with them. plus i like i can get 7 faster aerator pumps for the price of one slower impeller type. I just dont like the idea of one expensive point of failure either.

wakeboardsam 11-19-2009 8:56 PM

The pump I suggested pumps water for high end racing motors. I know one that runs that pump which costs over $50k, so I think it'll work on your ballast system...

tazz3069 11-19-2009 9:08 PM

The reason everybody that uses aerator pumps and bags do not fill while under way is because of the vented loops. They create a pocket of air that does not let water pass through. I ripped out the sprinkler valve crap in my boat. I replace it with 3 Tsunami 1200GPH pumps. I also drilled 3 holes in the hull. I have 3 Scuppers. I removed the scoop part of the scupper to keep the water from flowing. My system works awesome. Let me find my link with pictures. So in short, I have a 1" scupper, 1" ball valve, 1200gph Tsunami pump, and the stock 3/4" hose to a 400lb bag. From empty to fill, it was 7 min. The bags do not fill while I am underway. It sure beets the 20 min fill time. The sprinkler valve system is crap, IMO. There is alot of restriction in the valve. Now there is a few post in regards to the Valve itself. Some people remove the center spring. Yes that works fine when the boat is not moving. Water flows very fast. But with the spring removed, the pressure pushes the diaphragm open and water flows through. Try not to use Wakemakers to purchase anything. When I heard about them, I did order a few items. I never received them. I had to out source everything that I purchased.

05mobiuslsv 11-19-2009 9:20 PM

I've heard alot of issues with wakemakers. I don't think they actually stock a single part.

liquiddiet 11-20-2009 11:15 PM

well today i started ripping out the old ballast system. I hate to say it but i am actually giving thought to reversible pumps now. I was trying to play with manifolds and pump placements. Its tight and havent figured out good placement for aerators. I really hate to drop all the $ on 4 jabscos...uggg torn <BR> <BR>are there any deals or group buys on jabscos?

chpthril 11-21-2009 5:38 AM

Ryan, <BR> <BR>Use a 1" thru-hull and ball-valve for each pump and sac. This allows you to spread them out in the bilge instead of one large manifold with 3-4 pumps hung off it.

liquiddiet 11-21-2009 9:55 AM

how do you open and close the ball valves? do you have to reach down and turn them every time?

tre 11-21-2009 11:37 AM

Ryan, <BR> <BR>here is a plcae to buy the Jabsco w/ switch for $179 <BR><a href="http://www.interceptmarine.com/jabscowakeboardballastpuppy12wreversingswitch.aspx " target="_blank">http://www.interceptmarine.com/jabscowakeboardballastpuppy12wreversingswitch.aspx </a> <BR> <BR>$180 here <BR><a href="http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/jabsco-wakeboard-ballast-puppy-reversing-switch-p-10967.html" target="_blank">http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/jabsco-wakeboard-ballast-puppy-reversing-switch-p-10967.html</a> <BR> <BR>$183 <BR><a href="http://maritimeprotectionproducts.com/raymarine-st60-plus-tridata-display-only-p-8954.html?zenid=030bc5822f4b9224970a6301a4dcbe6c" target="_blank">http://maritimeprotectionproducts.com/raymarine-st60-plus-tridata-display-only-p-8954.html?zenid=030bc5822f4b9224970a6301a4dcbe6c</a> <BR> <BR>$183 <BR><a href="http://www.manventureoutpost.com/products/Jabsco-Wakeboard-Ballast-Puppy-W%7B47%7D-Reversing-Switch-%252d-12V-" target="_blank">http://www.manventureoutpost.com/products/Jabsco-Wakeboard-Ballast-Puppy-W%7B47%7D-Reversing-Switch-%252d-12V-</a>(18220%252d1127).html

chpthril 11-21-2009 5:29 PM

No need to close the ball-valves unless you spring A leak.

talltigeguy 11-22-2009 4:23 PM

Those are good deals on the Ballast puppies for sure. <BR> <BR>Don't listen to anyone that says you need to open and close the shut off valve with aerator pumps. Just run the loop from the intake slightly over the top of the bag and you will not generate enough force in your through hull to fill the sac on purpose unless you have a scoop. I used a mushroom through hull and never had accidental filling. Others above said this too, but some seemed to indicate you needed more than that. THe only reason to shut the valve off is in case of a pump failure or hose popping off below the water line.

jonblarc7 11-23-2009 6:38 AM

Agreed ^^^^^^^^^

fman 11-23-2009 10:32 PM

Ryan, <BR> <BR>I run a very similar setup to your system on my '08 Supra. I just completely re-designed the system this year. Some food for thought.... <BR> <BR>You can get about 39 GPM out of a 3/4" intake grate. If you are running the Tsunami 800's, they will produce about 11 GPM (rated at 13 but you will loose some GPMs with friction loss). If I were you I would add one additional intake grate on the bottom of the boat and run (2) pumps off each intake grate to get you the maximum flow. With 4 pumps you will be pumping 44-46 GPM's and one intake grate will not work well. Especially if you are running 1200's, they are rated at 20 GPM. <BR> <BR>Make sure and mount your vented loops as high up as possible in the boat, they work good, the higher up the better. I have had no problems with bags filling when you dont want them to. <BR> <BR>I vented each bag as well with a one way check valve and it works great, I would keep this in your design. Also works as on overflow when the bags get full. <BR> <BR>Aerator pumps will not prime themselves, so you must mount them as low as possible in the bottom bilge/trans area of the boat. They need water forced into them to work. When your boat is in the water you should see water in the lines just above the pump fill line. If you dont, then you know your pumps are not mounted properly. <BR> <BR>I dont understand why you have ball valves on your empty lines, but it wont hurt anything. If you are concerned about loosing water out your drain lines I have never had this problem. <BR> <BR>I would also recommend using the flexible ribbed bilge line. Its much better than the black line. Does not kink, and is much more durable. You can get this at wakemakers.com for about $1.60/ft. <BR> <BR>Your design looks good, as I mentioned its almost identicle to my boat. It will work good for you, and I elected to go with Aerator pumps because you get more GPM flow and they are bullet-proof. Also does not hurt they are $29/each. You can run an aerator pump dry for hours with no problems. The JABSCO pumps will burn up quickly if you run them dry. I have seen a few posts on this board about impeller changes on the JABSCO's that were only a couple years old. <BR> <BR>Good luck with your system..... <BR> <BR>(Message edited by fman on November 23, 2009)

05mobiuslsv 11-23-2009 11:10 PM

This is a better location to get hose than wakemakers, better customer service to. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1298" target="_blank">http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1298</a>

jasonwm 11-24-2009 9:19 AM

Ryan- <BR> <BR>Looks like you're doing a lot of research, which is the key to setting up a functional system. You can setup a fantastic system using almost any type of pump, it will just need to be designed specifically for the pump that will be used. <BR> <BR>There is a lot of information in this thread, so I won't go into specifics, but I would using T1200s to fill is a perfectly viable option, and results in a very fast system. If you use aerator pumps DO NOT use a scooping type intake or you will have problems with passive filling unless you use a manual or electronic valve to close the system when not filling (additional hassle and cost). Use a mushroom fitting and a vented loop on each pump to prevent passive filling and draining (this is how Malibu sets up their system) and you'll have a completely passive system that functions perfectly. <BR> <BR>If you have any other specific questions, please let me know. <BR> <BR>nu bu, you've got a PM.

liquiddiet 11-30-2009 12:41 PM

Going to keep with the existing 3/4" thru hull to run 2 1200's to the rear vdrive sacs, and going to add a 1" thru hull in the ski locker to run the 2 pumps to locker and bow bags. Going to keep manual ball valves on them for safety. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/749423.jpg" alt="Upload">

sinkoumn 11-30-2009 1:15 PM

I would put the check valves after the empty/overflow junctions

liquiddiet 11-30-2009 1:28 PM

sinko i have check valve planned on the vent lines they are the red circles with arrows in them

sinkoumn 11-30-2009 5:59 PM

Yeah, my bad, plus what I said makes no sense after I thought about it <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

liquiddiet 12-01-2009 9:28 AM

Here is my fitting plan <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/749573.jpg" alt="Upload">

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