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-   Archive through September 10, 2007 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=500944)
-   -   Blown head gasket? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494602)

teedub01 08-28-2007 4:00 PM

What are the symptoms and causes of a blown head gasket? Is it time-comsuming and pricey to fix?

laraujo 08-28-2007 4:30 PM

Water in the oil. Pull your Oil dipstick and see it the oil looks a milky whitish/brown color. Look inside your valve cover, thru the oil fill cap an see if you see this type of residue as well. If so, you have a blown head gasket. It is basically pull off the heads and replace the gaskets, but you probably should just have the heads redone (valve job/resurfaced) and your local machine shop since you got them off anyways.

denverd1 08-28-2007 4:40 PM

The gasket is a $65 dollar part. Getting to it is very time-consuming and pricey. also depends on how hot it got and else is wrong with it. <BR> <BR>kinda strange at 92 hours from a boat that was immaculate..

denverd1 08-28-2007 4:42 PM

(Very time-consuming and pricey) If you have it done by someone.

teedub01 08-28-2007 4:43 PM

Thanks. I think so too. There is a 3 yr warranty on the engine from Indmar. I think I might have to contact them...

99_slaunch 08-28-2007 5:11 PM

That should be a days worth of work to replace both head gaskets. Why did it get hot? Bad impeller? How long was it run hot? If the oil is not milky. The oil and water may have already seperated. Compression test or leak down test is a good place to start.

teedub01 08-28-2007 6:21 PM

I took it to a shop after I noticed it started running really rough and vibrating the whole boat practically. They said they two of the 8 pistons are running at 4 and 5 pounds of pressure instead of 170 like the rest. Based on other people's posts as what could be wrong, I came to the conclusion that it's probably a blown gasket. I'm not sure if it is both gaskets b/c it's only two pistons on one side that are running low on pressure. I just had the impeller replaced in March, too. I didn't even notice it was running hot so not sure how long it "could" have been. I haven't checked the oil yet but will do that. Such a pain!

99_slaunch 08-28-2007 6:39 PM

What ever you do don't just replace one head gasket.

teedub01 08-28-2007 6:45 PM

Yeah, that's a good point. If one blew, the other could too. I'll probably get it done at a certified Indmar repair place. I really don't want to take any chances.

johnsvt 08-28-2007 7:50 PM

I would definately have mechanic do a good inspection to try and figure out why the gasket failed. I would suspect you had a bad gasket, cylinder head that is not true, or massive detonation that caused the blown gasket. It really is not a tough job to do but doing the job vs. fixing the problem is the hard part.

oldschoolmalibu 08-29-2007 6:21 AM

Make sure you have both heads machined and both headgaskets replaced. Machining the heads will make sure the heads are not cracked and will get any imperfections off the heads where the gasket blew. If you just pull the head and replace the gasket and you got it hot enough to crack the head you will be doing this again real soon. Also remember cause and effect. There is something that made that engine get hot enough to blow the headgasket so you need to replace the inmpeller, the water pump, and thermostat when you do this for precaution.

rson 08-29-2007 7:49 AM

Hate to bring this up.....was there a warranty on the motor? (I don't know the standard motor warranty) <BR> <BR>Did you transfer the warranty if there was one? <BR> <BR>If there is a warranty is it based off hours and not actual life?

teedub01 08-29-2007 10:44 AM

I just had the impeller replaced in March (when I bought it). I just dropped it off at a certified Indmar service place so they will tell me today exactly what is wrong with it, hopefully. The engine does have a 3 yr warranty that is up at the end of this year. It's a limited warranty, but the place I took it to to have it serviced is going to find out if the warranty will cover this. If so, I am still within the window to have the warranty transferred so that's good. It's just such a hassle for a boat that only has 92 hrs on it!

rson 08-29-2007 12:41 PM

Here is a little post about SC and transfered warranties. I would jump right on that. <BR> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/464158.html?1184898657" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/464158.html?1184898657</a>

sean21v 08-29-2007 12:52 PM

Rich.. <BR> <BR>Don't start that CRAP.. She didnt come on the board bashing anyone.. She is taking the proper channels, unlike someone in the previous post.. <BR> <BR>Sean

rson 08-29-2007 1:02 PM

No crap started.....just a reminder to transfer that warranty and what happens when you don't.

sean21v 08-29-2007 1:05 PM

No, thats what happens when you try to resolve a dispute, when it has to deal with money by bashing a company over the internet.

rson 08-29-2007 1:12 PM

*** Ok, Ok Tara only read the first 5 posts cause the rest is crap and know that she didn't have a transfered warranty. <BR> <BR>happy now Sean? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

sean21v 08-29-2007 1:21 PM

Oh and by the way.. Notice Ronia hasnt poseted anything back since Mid July on her results???? <BR> <BR>Thanks for pointing that out Rich, I would have forgotten to ask Ronia what has transpired?

teedub01 08-29-2007 1:48 PM

WOW! Talk about a HEATED thread! I sure hope Ronia got her issue worked out. I did A TON of research before buying this boat so I am still a huge fan of SC. I know it'll get worked out somehow. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

sean21v 08-29-2007 1:51 PM

Good girl, Thats how you get things done!!!

teedub01 08-29-2007 1:59 PM

For sure!!

laraujo 08-29-2007 2:07 PM

Tara, <BR> <BR>Did you ever check the oil? Now you have me curious if it is milky or not!

teedub01 08-29-2007 2:15 PM

No, I didn't. I decided to have the service team take care of that. I took it to the place where I bought it so I feel comfortable with whatever they think is wrong with it. I'll let you guys know the diagnosis when I know if you're curious!

denverd1 08-29-2007 2:16 PM

pls do. and good luck with everything

teedub01 08-29-2007 2:29 PM

Thanks, guys, for all your help. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

sbt3 08-29-2007 4:17 PM

Tara- I had a similar problem this year only the pressure wasn't so low. It ended up being my valves got warped from a overheat. I did the work myself it took me about 15 hours and I had probably 800-1000 into in with parts and getting the heads decked and fluxed. hopefully it is just the gaskets also make sure you don't run it anymore. You can get a water bridge between the two cylinders where the water will actually cut into the engine block. I had to replace one of my buddies engines when that happened cause he kept running it. <BR> <BR>Sean- whats up, long time no see. I haven't been down to texas in a long time. hopefully I will get back down there one of these days. You guys still riding a lot. I was till I hurt my ankle a few weeks ago. I rode on it last weekend and it got all swollen again. Take care. <BR> <BR>Stan

sean21v 08-30-2007 5:43 AM

Stan.... <BR> <BR>Long time no see buddy.. How are ya...?? <BR> <BR>Come on down to Texas and ride with us.. I bought a new 21V this year, Didnt get to ride much last year, had a baby girl, and then had a motorcycle accident that took out my shoulder and knee for about 9 months, but we are back to full throttle and riding 3-4 times per week... Hope all is well with you and your.. Hit me up.. <BR> <BR>Sean

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:17 PM

So they are telling me it's most likely a cracked block. Great, just what I need. Could an improperly installed impeller or faulty impeller cause the engine to overheat? I seriously never even noticed that it ever overheated. This sucks...

99_slaunch 08-30-2007 7:31 PM

In my old boat the impeller shreded. The engine got hot and blistered the exhaust tubes and blew both head gaskets. 8hrs of my time and new head,intake,gaskets and impeller and I was good to go. How can they say it's most likely a cracked block? Have they pulled the heads? If they are telling you this before even touching it... owner beware.

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:33 PM

No, they definitely checked the heads. And they are not charging me for looking at it. Plus they said that they don't even do engine rebuilds so I would have to take it somewhere else anyway to get it fixed.

rio_sanger 08-30-2007 7:35 PM

Ouch! cracked block at 92 hrs.? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/sad.gif" border=0> Yes, a bad impeller definetly will cause an engine to overheat.

99_slaunch 08-30-2007 7:37 PM

When you say they checked the heads. How did they check them on or off the motor? Was there any damage to the head gaskets?

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:38 PM

I just had the impeller replaced in March and recently found out that the place I took it to doesn't really do quality work. I'll have to look into this...

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:41 PM

Hmmm, good question. Im not sure. He's going to email me in the morning and give me a play-by-play, so to speak. I'll ask him that.

99_slaunch 08-30-2007 7:44 PM

I have seen motors over heated to the point that they were knocking and did not crack the block.

rio_sanger 08-30-2007 7:47 PM

Cracked blocks are often caused by freezing, as well as overheating . If engine was not properly winterized in a cold climate, could be another possible cause.

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:47 PM

Really? That is crazy. Maybe it's time for a second opinion then.

99_slaunch 08-30-2007 7:54 PM

A 2nd opinion never hurts. Let us know what he say's after you talk to him. What kind of motor is it and is it a v-drive or dd?

teedub01 08-30-2007 7:59 PM

I'll keep you guys posted. It's a direct drive.

jlembas 08-30-2007 8:57 PM

We had a similar problem with our boat. We lost a water hose and over heated the motor. It started as a blown head gasket, but things kept getting worse as they broke the motor down for repair. <BR> <BR>Needless to say, we opted to install a new motor instead of fixing the old one. It was a bit cheaper and came with a warranty. The boys at Paradise Marine in AZ did a great job.

jmanolinsky 08-31-2007 7:58 AM

How many hours have you put on the boat since having the impeller replaced? Replacing the impeller is a relatively easy repair or maintenance item. If not done properly I would think it would fail immediately, not months later. You don't even really know if your engine got hot, do you? You need to work through the dealer where you bought the boat in dealing with Indmar. If this boat has been properly serviced and not started and run out of the water, they should take care of you. I wouldn't say anything to them to make them think that you expect anything less than a fully warrantied repair or replacement. And the dealer should stand up for you on this. <BR> <BR>My thoughts, <BR>Jman

psudy 08-31-2007 8:20 AM

Tara, I told you in the other thread, that you need to have them check the valves. The same thing happened on my boat. They were saying its probabley a cracked block and they were going to have to pull the engine out of the boat and it was going to cost millions. I got pissy with them and got them to check the head gaskets and valves. Low and behold, I had a burnt valve. It still cost millions though.

jon_roth 08-31-2007 8:31 AM

my two part exhaust leaked water into my heads, causing it to hydrolic and blow the head gasket...going unnoticed for some time caused the block to get gouged out beyond repair, new long block marine crate motor $2700 ,new one piece exhaust manifolds $1700.did all work myself to save money . boat works great.

teedub01 08-31-2007 9:30 AM

That's right. I'll have them check the valves, too. It just seems highly unlikely that the block would crack without blowing the head gaskets first. We've put about 15 hours on the boat after the impeller was installed. No, I don't know if the engine got hot b/c honestly there was no sign whatsoever. It's like this really came out of the blue...

oldschoolmalibu 08-31-2007 11:09 AM

Get a second opinion! And make sure they checked the heads off the motor. There is no way they can tell you the heads are cracked or good without taking them off.

teedub01 08-31-2007 11:37 AM

This is what the head mechanic said: "Most of the engine was left taken apart all ready from Ski Masters, we popped off the valve covers to find no damage in the valve train/top end of the engine which means something in the lower end/crank is broken. In our shop we donít do motor rebuilds because the cost for us to rebuild them is as much to purchase one but we can purchase a rebuilt or new long block (base engine assembled with cylinder heads) for you to get the engine going again. Typical engine repair job is $8-11,000 depending on engine type and whether it is a new or rebuilt engine."

psudy 08-31-2007 11:46 AM

Tell me you transfered the warranty!

teedub01 08-31-2007 11:58 AM

Nope. I didn't know I was supposed to b/c the dealer never told me about it. So I'm disputing it with the dealer b/c I could have transferred it but the dealer had to call and give them my name and serial number of the engine so now I couldn't transfer it if I wanted to. Great.

monkey 08-31-2007 2:31 PM

8->11K for a rebuild? Really? That much!

99_slaunch 08-31-2007 3:20 PM

They pulled a valve cover and saw no damage and said something was broke in the low end. Is the motor knocking or some thing. I'm confused how they made this assumption by pulling the valve cover. Will the motor run? Does it knock? More details please.

johnsvt 08-31-2007 9:26 PM

I agree with Aaron something doesn't sound right. If the something in the bottom end was broke you would hear it. 8-11k to fix...they are taking you for a ride.

wake_pirate 08-31-2007 9:41 PM

I'd perform a leakdown test on the 2 low cylinders &amp; that will tell you if its a head gasket, ring problem, or valve problem. If you ask your mechanic what a leak down test is &amp; he doesnt know....youre at the wrong shop. Always remove both heads when performing this repair, obviously since both opposing cylinders are low on compression. BTW in the course of the diag, you need to be able to locate what caused the failure. Good Luck

wakesetter101 09-01-2007 7:36 AM

Thats the problem these days with taking anything to any kind of dealer. Nothing is realy repaired anymore its just changed out and you get a LARGE bill. Not any mechanics anymore just parts changers. <BR> <BR>I would start by looking at the impeller and the raw water strainer to see if it is clogged. Maybe even the termostat to see if it opens at the right temp.(boil water and drop it in). <BR> <BR> <BR>Its hard to say but if it hasnt been in any cold temps lately and didnt overheat to the point that the warning/shut down went off. More than likely it was just a defective head gasket or it wasnt torqued right from the factory.

laraujo 09-01-2007 3:13 PM

Tara, <BR> <BR>When the motor was running did you hear a knocking or ticking sound? If so, then what you hear is the spun bearing piston/crankshaft noise. Did the shop confirm that there was no water in the oil? If there is, then it is a head gasket and all you need to do is have the heads taken off, valve job, and resurface. (maybe $1-2K)Any mechanic, boat or auto can do that and because you have a direct drive, that is easy to work on. $11K is crazy! It may be worth your while to pay the shop whatever they got into it and shop around for a better deal.

jlembas 09-02-2007 7:00 AM

I think the shop is right when they said the average motor replacement is between 8-11k. The cost is just not the crate motor, but all the other things that will be needed when you pull the motor from the boat. Not to mention that everything needs to be marine rated (which we all know means $$). They are going to need to send the heads out to be checked and fixed if needed $$. Time is the killer here. Shops need to make a profit too. A motor rebuild/replacement will occupy one of the shops service bays for weeks or more costing them $$.

wake_pirate 09-02-2007 11:23 AM

I replace engines at my shop all the time using factory crate enignes. They usually average $4-5000 installed, for most cars. I did do a 30' RV w/ a 454 for $12000 a couple weeks ago, but that was over 40 hours in labor. <BR> I think you should shop around, check out <a href="http://www.atkengines.com" target="_blank">http://www.atkengines.com</a>, or <a href="http://www.jasperengines.com/mari-products.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jasperengines.com/mari-products.htm</a>, they usually have marine applications in stock. If you're in Northern Cal, PM me &amp; give me some specific info &amp; I'll bid it for you.

johnsvt 09-03-2007 7:56 PM

A motor replacement shouldn't take longer than 8 hours. If you are taking any longer you need to find a new job.

wake_pirate 09-03-2007 9:56 PM

A motor replacement shouldn't take longer than 8 hours. If you are taking any longer you need to find a new job. <BR>WTF??? <BR>Typical salesman making things sound easier than what they are. <BR>I guess when you race a Ford you really get to let you engine replacement skills shine. haha

johnsvt 09-04-2007 6:58 AM

You know I actually only race that car, but what is so hard about loosening 20-30 bolts and unhooking a few wires. Really, there is so much room to work with on a boat in comparison to a car. I have mechanics in my shop that do complete motor swaps in less than a day. Are they good at what they do? Hell yeah, the reason they are so good is because of competition. My service department competes for business just like anyone else and if someone would take 40 hours to do a motor swap they wouldn't be paid for 32 hours of their work and the customer would never bring his/her car back. I am sorry it took you 40 hours to do an RV motor I would suspect they are much harder than boats or cars. <BR> <BR>Yeah, I did get pretty good at changin that little ford out...about 4 hours from start to finish. <BR> <BR>Marc I didn't mean to insult you sorry you may have taken it that way. It has been my experience that many of the dealers we have dealt with make a mountain out of a mole hill. In our area they are able to get away with what they do because they tend to look at you and say where else are you going to go.

swoop 09-04-2007 7:22 AM

After reading all that crap I still dont know what kind of boat this is or what motor it has. <BR> <BR>She likely didnt transfer the warranty because of the 450.00 fee associated with that. <BR> <BR>You can install an impeller incorrectly by instructing your summer help to complete a "simple" repair and fail to supervise them. <BR> <BR>The last time my boat started to overheat the computer shut the motor down without my permission before anything went wrong. <~~~ thats important with my aluminum heads <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>When mine overheated they said I should replace the impeller. They should have offered to do it themselves. Because, in the process of replacing the impeller, I found that someone accidentally bumped the handle on my raw water intake to a partially closed position restricting the flow of water into the motor thus causing the overheating while under way. <BR> <BR>I'm not saying its the dealers fault, I'm not saying its her fault. I'm saying there are too many hands in the cookie jar for you guys to make assumptions by reading a post and inadvertantly giving bad information.

wake_pirate 09-04-2007 5:06 PM

hey Ewing, its all good. My apologies as well. I should have been more clear. I, as well as other shops go off of book time. If the job calls for 40 hours, the customer pays for 40 hours. Thats how technicians get paid, its production work. <BR>The motorhome had to have alot of the facia removed to gain access to the engine. I agree w/ you Ewing, boats should alot easier. Its just keeping the interior clean is the real challenge.

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