So I'm thumbing through the board buyers guide last night looking at some of the new offerings and it hit me like a ton of bricks, these are great days to be involved in wakesurfing. Much like the birth of true wakeboarding, we are in the birth of true wakesurfing. It is evolving into it's own legit sport and it's boundaries are being pushed daily. It's growing like a teenager and there aint nothin' that can stop it now. <BR> <BR>So cheers to everyone who gives this sport everything they've got and them some. These are great days my friends, great days.

I couldn't agree more <BR> <BR>On a semi related note I heard rumors that a certain forum member just put the finishing touches on a signature model<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

Mr. D? Mr. S? Mr. W? Do tell.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>

Actually there "might" be 2 or more signature models coming soon from Walzer. Mine is basically a standard 1" but a little more "aggressively" shaped, made with different materials and has oriental themed topsheet graphics.

i still need to ride one of these walzer boards, i love my phase 5 for the most part but it leaves much to be desired <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":-(" BORDER=0>

Nick, i totally agree with you on your "birth of true wakesurfing" speech. We're working very hard in Orlando to get some strictly wakesurf tourney's up and running on an annual basis and i don't know how many times i've tried to explain just how HUGE this sport can get. <BR> <BR>Think of it... how many surfers are there just in the U.S. alone? Now compare the number of lakes to the amount of shoreline and the number of skiboats and watersports athletes to the amount of ocean surfers and skimmers. The numbers just don't lie, there's infinite potential. <BR> <BR>Plus, the tricks aren't as flashy and big as wakeboarding but neither are the falls and injuries. The worst injury we've had on the boat was a stubbed toe, lol. The risk level is low AND the fun/stoke factor is HUGE!! Plus it's a sport open to any age group or skill level. You have to be pretty resilient to learn how to wakeboard and even more so to start learning tricks and looks how big it's growing, and growing still. <BR> <BR>I'll stop rambling now, but i really do think there's an endless potential for wakesurfers to sprout from ages 8-80, guys and girls. Not to mention the tricks/skills are mostly transfer knowledge for current surfers/skimmers so it's easy for them to transfer over too. <BR> <BR>So we're going full-steam on creating comps for wakesurfing here in FL and all over the east coast. Anybody else stoked on this? Any big dreams that you want to see a reality???

Jon, you honestly see a lot of people wake surfing in Orlando? <BR> <BR>In Clermont, on any given weekend there probably is one boat load of people on the water surfing - and that would be my boat. <BR> <BR>It isn't a birth here yet, it's still an embryo. <BR> <BR>Last year we were hoping we could scrape together 12 people to compete in a three event tournament (four of the competitiors would have included the Walker's and myself). <BR> <BR>My big dream I'd like to see a reality, is seeing anyone besides me wakesurfing the Clermont Chain.

Jon, you honestly see a lot of people wake surfing in Orlando? <BR> <BR>In Clermont, on any given weekend there probably is one boat load of people on the water surfing - and that would be my boat. <BR> <BR>It isn't a birth here yet, it's still an embryo. <BR> <BR>Last year we were hoping we could scrape together 12 people to compete in a three event tournament (four of the competitiors would have included the Walker's and myself). <BR> <BR>My big dream I'd like to see a reality, is seeing Kyle Scmidt wakesurfing the Clermont Chain.

I'm with Ed, our experience out on a lake is one of excitement when we see someone else wakesurfing. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> We still get the occassional group of folks that rush to our aid because they have concluded that our boat is sinking...AND we live in California where wakesurfing seems to have taken hold. <BR> <BR>One of the issues that we will need to address with contests is the visibility. Wakesurfing, as a spectator sport, is about as much fun as watching paint dry for folks on the shore. It gets WORSE when you are forced to watch the backside of the wake from 800 feet away. <BR> <BR>I think that about the only way to make it a decent spectator sport is with live video from on the boat, but even then it's not as visually appealing as something like wakeboarding where the layman KNOWS how hard a specific trick is.

Three times last year motorists passing on a bridge over my lake called 911 to report sinking boats. In reality it was boats rigged for wakesurfing. That sounds funny, but I have to go the city to get my event permit so I hear about the 911 calls. <BR> <BR>Now of those there times I was on the water only twice and of those two times I was only wakesurfing once. That tells me there are boats other than mine rigged for wakesurfing. I do occasionally see other wakesurf boats, it’s the exception. I know there’s a crew on the reservoir upstream that surfs often. <BR> <BR>Last year I was expecting to draw maybe 12 surfers to at Scioto Wakefest. I was counting on my crew, my daughter and a few others to show. We ended up drawing 21 surfers, 11 goofy, 10 regular. One thing that helped was I participated in a wakesurf competition in Indiana, talked to the surfers, and left event flyers behind. I also competed in a the NWL Ohio wakeboard state championship, left flyers at the event table and did a little networking.

I see more and more people every year out wakesurfing. 5 years ago, we we're the only ones we ever saw. People would always pull up along side of us and watch. You could see the stoke on all their faces and once we were done they would come over and ask about it. "What kind of board is that? How much ballast are you running? Is it hard? Man, I gotta get me one those!" We had a Sheriff pull up along side of us a couple of times last year. The first time was to warn us about CO (I immediately showed him my FAE) and the second time, he just wanted to watch. I finished my "set" and he pulled up to us just to tell us that that was the best surfing he had ever seen on his lake. It really made my summer to have "the man" stoked on our surfing. <BR> <BR>I think it's just starting to come on strong and the next 5 years are just going to blow up.

we get the rangers following us all the time (most of them are ocean surfers themselves)

My local water patrol is a part of our crew so we get by with surfing well after dark on some nights. <BR> <BR>When we started surfing 3 years ago, no one had ever seen it done on my local lake. We had cars stopping along the road watching. Now there are at least 5 boats on our lake doing it!

You really think that it's going to blow up Nick? We've been behind the boat for ages and every year I hear the same prediction, but I don't know. Exposure is tough for the sport and trust me I've tried to get sponsorship dollars for contests and the major players have all but said our sport is "gay" in that it simply doesn't hold spectator interest. <BR> <BR>I think it has some..."freakishly bizarre" qualities for passersby <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>, but I don't ever see it as a huge sport. I don't think it will ever rival the likes of surfing in the ocean or wakeboarding. Even wakeskating has more money behind it and more organized events and I would bet there are less than half the participants in that sport vs. wakesurfing.

I see the potential for a lot of growth in the actual participation of the sport but unfortunately don't see the competitive side of things going much beyond the grass roots stage. As much as I love the sport I do find myself bored watching too much of it.

<i>the major players have all but said our sport is "gay"</i> <BR>board manufacturers? If so that's fine by me (and helps explain all the half-baked board designs)

Well Jeff, I'll you want I do know. 3 years ago, in my neck of the woods, I saw a few people attempting to surf. 2 years ago, I saw few people starting to ride without the rope and keep it going for a reasonable amount of time. Last year, I saw tons of people out surfing. Realistically 10 times what I saw just two years prior. Maybe that was the blow up. Maybe not. I feel the true masses are just starting to get really into it. As you well know, once people get a taste of it, they are hooked. I'm just one guy with one boat. However, I have turned probably 20 people onto surfing, 2 of those resulting in two new boat purchases with a third on the way. Along with those boats, they both bought wakesurf boards. Both those guys are turning their crews onto it and who knows how many they will hook. The first wave of "The Hooked" are already hardcores, the next wave will be even bigger, ect, ect. Maybe it will fizzle, Maybe it wont. Personally, I feel a blow up comin'. It probably wont ever get to wakeboard status, but the growth is far from over.

Sean - Time for new players then and I think it will come from the ocean surfing world. I just purchased my first ocean board. Once some of the smaller ocean shapers get a taste of the money you will see a whole host of new board designs, boats, equipment and tricks. <BR> <BR>The reason and I know it has been stated many times is simple. The older folks who don't want to kill themselves on a wakeboard are eager to get on a surf board. Now instead of little Johnny and Suzy fighting over who gets a pull next it will be mom and dad in fighting with them too. In five years (or less) every wake board boat will have a wedge and surf racks standard. <BR> <BR>I remember when snow boarding, wake boarding and Computers were not mainstream/cool. How do you like them now? <BR> <BR>I don't think Wake Surfing is the next Rubics Cube or Hacky Sack and its roots can be traced back to the 50's when folks were riding long boards behind Correct Crafts.

I can remember when the Edsel was proclaimed the next big thing <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I don't think that you can throw out things like snowboarding, the PC or wakeboarding as having similar growth patterns without backing that up. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> From what I can see, there isn't any similarity in those references to wakes'ing. <BR> <BR>The sport will have some growth certainly, and John makes a good point, as we water sports enthusiasts age, wakes'ing allows us to remain active behind the boat. However, there are so many variables in that. A number of us are active behind the boat because it's a wonderful family sport and as our kids individuate and move on, I'm not sure that ALL of us will continue boating. <BR> <BR>I don't think the margins on hand shaped boards are so HUGE that you'll get a ton of folks rushing to the market. Further, there is a ton of R&amp;D (ripoff and duplicate <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> ) for smaller shapers to effectively make salable boards. There are significant differences between ocean surfing and wakes'ing. I think lastly, delivery becomes a problem. Mostly small shapers sell to locals, shipping a rather fragile and large board to Iowa adds significantly to the cost. I spoke with an individual in Greece that was telling me getting a board to Europe from the USA DOUBLES the cost, so a $400 board becomes an $800 board. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Lastly, with a relatively small margin further dilluting the market with a host of smaller shapers probably doesn't bode well for the industry. It might help the consumers if they can drive the cost down a few hundred dollars, though. <BR> <BR>The rate of growth of the industry will depend upon the money to be made. Boat manufacturers will jump into the market IF there is a demand for specific boats. Time will tell if that actually happens. There is certainly an aging of the demographic, but I'm not convinced that is what drives sales in the watersports industry. Look at any display ad in a watersports magazine and the target market is youth. <BR> <BR>I'm not trying to denegrate the sport and certainly I am a rabid enthusiast <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> but I just can't see the sport as "blowing up" nor do I see every boat coming equipped with surf racks standard in 5 years. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> It would be good to have a reasonable projection of the growth of the sport, personally I just think it's much slower and will ultimately be less than what folks tend to say about it.

<i>I don't think the margins on hand shaped boards are so HUGE that you'll get a ton of folks rushing to the market. Further, there is a ton of R&amp;D (ripoff and duplicate ) for smaller shapers to effectively make salable boards. There are significant differences between ocean surfing and wakes'ing. I think lastly, delivery becomes a problem. Mostly small shapers sell to locals, shipping a rather fragile and large board to Iowa adds significantly to the cost. I spoke with an individual in Greece that was telling me getting a board to Europe from the USA DOUBLES the cost, so a $400 board becomes an $800 board. Lastly, with a relatively small margin further dilluting the market with a host of smaller shapers probably doesn't bode well for the industry. It might help the consumers if they can drive the cost down a few hundred dollars, though</i> <BR> <BR>Unfortunately there's not much that's going to lower the price on boards. You're right the profit margin isn't huge, in fact it's almost non-existant. In the last 3 years the price for composites has more than doubled (in some cases tripled) and the demand keeps increasing from other sectors. ($100 less and there goes <b>ANY</b> profit margin unless they are being made overseas)

Jeff either you have too much time on your hands ore you never sleep. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>Ok, instead of wake boarding and snow boarding, how about inline hockey? Would you consider that a sport with a similar growth potential and scale as wake surfing?

Hey John, I know can you believe that I wake up at 4:30am every day - even on the weekends - it's tragic. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>I honestly wish that we had some good numbers to work with...I wanted to go back and look at the posts here in the wakesurfing forum segregated by year and get some idea of how that compared to some other activity that is represented - get the increase year over year. Lordy - if I ever do end up stratifying that I WILL have way too much time on my hands! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Jeff, try Tylenol PM. That gets me to 5:30am, or even 6:00am if Im lucky.

Saw the commercial for the boat show coming up this weekend last night. Through all the stuff they pack into one of those 30 second spots, wakesurfing made it's way in. Granted the footage was probably right out of a Centurian promo vid, but I don't care. Fact is, there was a dude on primetime airspace wakesurfing. Maybe that's commonplace in some other areas, but my wife saw it and made a point to make sure I saw it, knowing I would be stoked on it. I ran through that 2 second clip at least 10 times in slowmo trying to tell what board he was riding, what wake he was on, ect. If I saw it, so did a lot of other people, and I doubt I'm the only one who noticed the wakesurfing it. I know people around here are stoked on it more than they have ever been. <BR> <BR>So in review, <b>Jeff</b>, I would like to take back my previous comment of "blow up" and I would like to replace it with "continual growth". Is that Vanilla enough for your oh so level headed world? <BR> <BR>You know I'm just haslin' you right? You know I love ya.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/kiss.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>I have begun the yearly process of getting my INT to start a wakesurf division. Still no response from them, but all my sponsor money will be in one place at one time this weekend so we'll see what happens.

There are water ways issues with wakeboarding and wakesurfing, more so for wakesurfing. As the sport grows new surfers need to be aware of the impact of our larger wakes. Safety and Responsibility Education has to be something we promote. I think one of the best safety web sites out there is published by Larry Mann. Failure to operate wakesurfing boat responsibly will close waterway to wakesurfing and possibly wakeboarding.

Ah Nick, I can feel the vanilla love. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Without an acceptable definition for "blowing up" it doesn't really matter does it? You could define it as 2 more people <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I could define it as 10 million new participants. I just like to avoid the hype and make sure that we're all communicating clearly. Define the term, make it generally acceptable and we're good, but CERTAINLY...I would get behind "continual growth". <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Well, in a vanilla sort of way. <BR> <BR>I'd love to see the INT folks, across the country, a bit more responsive. Chuck and Linda Payton here in California are incredibly responsive and supportive. It would be great if we could have that same level of responsiveness to our sport throughout INT.

Uh yeah, vanilla love? Creapy.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0> I'm glad we can come to an understanding.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>As you know, this will be my third year trying to get my local INT to include wakesurfing. I'm going to try and get some sponsors and riders first then hit Mark hard with it. The last time I spoke with him, he just wanted at least 6 riders and he would see what he could do. I got 10, but still nothing. I'm hoping that if I can get some sponsor involvement along with the riders, I can tip the scale.

I'm wondering if our efforts are misplaced. I recruited Ed Sullivan in the midwest and he was greeted with open arms by the NWL. Even to the point of bringing wakesurfing to a national title. I know our NorCal rep was supportive, but that appears to be inconsistent throughout the country and through administration. I've tried to organize through the WWA in fact traveling back to Surf Expo a few years ago to talk with Shannon...but...that wasn't productive. Nick do you and your buddies get together for informal gatherings? Much like Ed does?

What do you mean informal gatherings? Like Scioto? No. When we surf, we surf my boat and that is it. I'm trying to get some of these loaches to buy a boat, but as of yet, to no avail. The few people I have turned on to surfing that have bought boats are always busy for whatever reason (Sandy Cooter). The INT is the only game in town and they seem to be wrapped up in their own little gig. We do have Pro Tour stop here and I tried getting in with them, but the WWA is about as responsive as Helen Keller. So it's just me and my loaches. There's lots of crews out there surfin', I guess I just need to start pulling up to their boats and start making it happen the hard way.

The informal surfing get togethers were born out of the first Scioto Wakefest. I kept in touch with a few wakesurfers from Indianapolis, we all thought it would be cool to get together again and just surf. At a competition you spend some time surfing but more time waiting for your slot to open up. This year art Wakesfest we should have two different brands of boats puling at the same time – twice the ride time – or half the wait time. <BR> <BR>At the gatherings we had three boats going all the time and everyone brought their boards. Before the “Gathering” some of the guys asked if I could “Score” some more demo boards. Jeff was able to get Trick Boardz, Walker, Shred Stixx and Inland surfer to send demos out to us. It was a really good experience, I rode on probably eight boards at the gathering, plus my goofy stance crew got a chance to surf behind a boat with a RH prop.

Also USA Water Ski/NWL and Chris Walker have been awesome and very supportive, Chris just called me this afternoon.

I have the same level of support with Chuck Payton and really all of the folks associated with the NorCal INT League. Not so much from the National folks. I also have the support from the folks at Centurion - well if I keep on top of them, easy to forget about us small fries when you're trying to manufacture boats (who would have guessed! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> ) <BR> <BR>Nick, Ed, it's been more than a tear or so ago, but Larry Mann was the one that proposed that we create our own sanctioning body. It's primarily organized to sponsor things like Ed's informal gatherings - get X number of folks together and ante up membership dues and we'll make sure you get X number of boards to demo, as well as, small grassroots contests. <BR> <BR>Preliminarily, the folks responsible for the World Wakesurfing Championships would be willing to accomodate the winners of the various "regional" (I believe is what we discussed, but don't hold me to that) in the lineup. <BR> <BR>Ed has agreed to having the AWSA sanction his events - that's not accurate, the AWSA is sanctioning the very limited component of the wakesurfing contests that Ed is putting on. <BR> <BR>I wonder if it's time for the AWSA to become it's own sanctioning body? With all the rights and obligations attributable thereto <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>What do you think Nick? Could you put on a one day contest and a one day demo event on your home lake? Doesn't have to be more than just your buddies as a start. Is there a local Centurion dealer by you? <BR> <BR>Then I need to get Ed G in Florida up and running too. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Jeff, I'd suggest that you make a call to Chris Walker and renew the discussion regarding organization of a "national wakesurfing club", under USA Water Ski rules. I think you can shed a lot of the sanctioning legal worries under the USA Water Ski banner. By shedding the legal worries you can then focus on rule development, tournament development, judge training, and promoting wakesurfing as a sport. <BR> <BR>Again I'm no expert, I'd suggest talking to Chris.

You know, I had a HUGE conversation with the folks in Florida, sent them details, rules, judging criteria and then...POOF, they disappeared on me. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>While I appreciate not wanting to recreate the wheel, I'm not so appreciative of being treated like a second class citizen. I know that Chris' change in position may very well help us ALL out, but I'm reluctant to invest more time with those folks based upon their inability to return a phone call or email. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> The same was true with the WWA - I prefered dealing with the IRS to those folks. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>That send button can be so hard sometimes. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Yup, Cope &amp; McPheters is the Centurian dealer here. Boarders Paradise is in the same joint and I was thinking of trying to get them in on it as well. They (C&amp;McP) already sponsor an INT event and I know just about everyone down there on a first name basis. I would really like to get my Tige dealer in on it, but they don't seem too pumped on the idea. <BR> <BR>I could put a crew together and get some banners made and draw some attention. My home lake is a state park though. What would I need to get through them? Special use permit? I have another site in mind, but I'm betting the permit and what not would an absurd amount of $$$. Right downtown though.

Jeff, The way Chris described the National "Wake Surfing Club" concept put's the club leadership in complete control with the backing of USA Water Ski. I know you had that history with the leadership in Florida. I think Chris is saying you can make up what you want as long as you meet the basic tenants of a club. The basic tenants looked to be pretty boiler plate to me. <BR> <BR>Again, I think it would be worth your time to call Chris. I'm afraid that my restatements of what I recall that he said (wrote) might be inaccurate. <BR> <BR>If you want the AWSA to become a national sanctioning body with all the needed backing I think you can do it for something like $65 a year, that’s it! (not counting individual event sanctioning)

I certainly will contact Chris, hash over the details. I know that I went over all of this with Tom Regan - what 2 years ago in Minnesota and it really was rather easy. <BR> <BR>Nick, I don't know that we need to do anything fancy, we can skip the banners just make it a "good old boys" gathering and/or contest. Our home lake is Federal! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> They aren't too bad about getting the permits though, they have bass fishing contests and the like on it. My guess is that you start with the friendly ranger <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Describe what you are trying to do and go from there. <BR> <BR>Nick, can you hold on until after I've talked with Chris Walker about the "National" wakeboard club?

Hold on? I surf. Let go. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>Well seeing as how I have nothing to hold onto, sure. You now have 24hrs and...

"Then I need to get Ed G in Florida up and running too." <BR> <BR>Jeff, better save your efforts for Jon Harrison. Seems like any Fl tournaments might happen thru him (in the near future). <BR> <BR>I'm now in Jamboree mode. One thing I do intend to do this year is get more of the pro Wakeboarders surfing on the donated boards. <BR> <BR>If any board manufacturer out there wants photos of pros riding their products, we may be able to get Trevor Hansen, Kyle Schmidt, Josh Sanders and who knows who else, riding on your logo. <BR> <BR>Send boards!

Right, like I said I need to get YOU up to speed. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Actually I'm just thinking out loud here. Outside of our incredibly supportive and innovative NorCal INT League folks, the rest of INT is pretty consistently passive or almost negative towards wakes'ing. <BR> <BR>When I attend the World Wakesurfing Championships almost 95% of the people in the Men's Open aren't truly wakes'ers. If you see most of the pictures of Josh Sleigh that have been posted here, he's in the ocean. Don't get me wrong, he's incredibly talented, but his roots are in the ocean. Same is true with Drew Danielo, he is one of the most talented skimmers alive, and he is also active wakeskating. <BR> <BR>So, in my mind, the "World Championship" doesn't cater to the enthusiast, it caters to professionals from other disciplines. That sort of convoluted implimentation of the contest is VERY confusing to potential sponsors. The "star" of our sport, "isn't" in the minds of potential sponsors with money. That makes it really hard for organizing bodies like the INT League to step up. When your claim to fame is that you can bring in these superstar ocean surfers we lose our identity. Like above, the professional wakeboarders are just that "wakeboarders". <BR> <BR>One thing that I know has been very popular is what Ed Sullivan does with his gatherings. Just a bunch of "good 'ol boys" out for the day with a bushel of boards to test. Maybe this is the direction we should be taking, rather than trying to organize contests where in the end, the glory winds up with folks that are behind the boat only marginally? <BR> <BR>Any thoughts?

You need to find a marketing wizard because IMO with the right voice that can be twisted around into a positive. With the right cross-promotion sponsors have the potential to reach into more then 1 market.

maybe we should be working on developing relationships with potential media outlets first. (surfline.com, Transworld, skim sites, etc...) <BR> <BR>If the exposure is there the sponsors will follow

Know any that wakesurf, Sean? <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

was that a hint to start picking things up on my end?<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>

I'm going to have to agree with Sean on this one. Bringing in talent from all walks can only be a good thing. The money and exposure that follows these "other world pros", can only bring more light to "our world pros". These "outsiders" have fans that follow everything they do, and when they get beat by an "insider", to me it validates the legitimacy of the sport. <BR> <BR>If I were on the proside of wakesurfing, I would welcome the challenge of all comers. A guy I ride with regularly is a former US Freestyle Ski Team member and actually got me started in wakesurfing some 6 years ago. The guy is truly a gifted athlete and is pretty damn good at just about anything he tries. When I can go out and ride "better" than him, I feel I've accomplished something. I quote Airplane!, "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash!"

Yeah Nick, but you'll also recognize: "WTH is an Aluminum Falcon?!" <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Tell me though, as a sponsor if I have a TON of money and I can invest it either at a SURF contest or a WAKESURF contest, both competing for my limited resources, which one would I choose? That is the response I am getting. Even the folks IN the biz that manufacture boards won't cut loose the cash. We all know, cash is what makes the world go 'round. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

<i>"Tell me though, as a sponsor if I have a TON of money and I can invest it either at a SURF contest or a WAKESURF contest, both competing for my limited resources, which one would I choose? That is the response I am getting. Even the folks IN the biz that manufacture boards won't cut loose the cash. We all know, cash is what makes the world go 'round."</i> <BR> <BR>If I had a ton of money, I doubt I would be limited to one or the other. I would choose both with dollar amounts for each based on a percentage of what I would feel each one would require for maximum exposure of my product in two different arenas. Red Bull is the perfect example. Those guys are into everything. You should see what they are doing to White Lightning, one the most famous race planes in the history of Air Racing. Does it do anything for their Skiing program or their NASCAR program from an average persons point of view? No, but to hardcore aviation heads around the world who know of this project, the rest of their endeavors are brought to light to them. Cross pollination is a good thing IMO. <BR> <BR>Just in case you were curious about White Lightning, here you go. The links on this page lead to some great stuff, especially the Ezell Av. site.<a href="http://www.flyingbulls.at/aircraft/p38/about_frame_e.html" target="_blank">http://www.flyingbulls.at/aircraft/p38/about_frame_e.html</a>

LOL - granted and the sponsorship is...$80 and a case of Red Bull. IF there is an existing drink sponsor with a sole source agreement for the sanctioning body...then we get nothing. Honestly Nick, what I've described is an actual scenario. <BR> <BR>Ok, let's do this. I want to put on say - 5 gatherings/contests and I'd like to have $1,000 to fund each. <BR> <BR>Find me that money, not hypothetical, because I have chased the dollars...find me a cash cow <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Hmm, 5G eh? Maybe you're looking in the wrong pasture for your cow. J/K. <BR> <BR>I'm not doubting your knowledge or knowhow on the subject, just playing Devil's Advocate. The wheels are turning though. Squeeky sqeek, squeeky squeek, squeeky sqeek.

What more could I ask for than the motivation of a man that can generate cash. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Soooo I'm still holding.... When can I start putting something together? I'm pretty confident I can get my local boardshop in on this. None of those guys, I mean none of 'em, wakeboard anymore. They all surf.

Wakefest will have a budget something on the order of $5K, mostly from entries. Note we're running wakeboarding, wakeskate, hydrofoil, and wakesurf competitions. <BR> <BR>The only gatherings costs were gas and board shipping. If a dealership showed up and brought a boat and paid for gas, well that could cut gas costs. If you awarded several prize boards to attendees then you might have overall event value/cost around $1,000, but gas only should be no more than a few hundred, depending on how many boats and surfers show up <BR> <BR>I’ve toyed with the idea of sanctioning gatherings as NWL learn to ski programs. Sanctioned learn to ski programs provide insurance for $5 per student. As an event organizer I worry a little about my personal liability, sanctioning would help relive that worry substantially. To make the learn to ski program legit you probably should have at least one Level 1 instructor and a trained driver. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bigshow on March 01, 2007)

Ed, I don't know that I would even CONSIDER a gathering with the sort of exposure you are taking. I would think a gathering wouldn't cost more than a few tanks of gas and some things to eat and drink. The board manufacturers (except for HL, LF, CWB and Phase 5 ) all toss in boards for demos. <BR> <BR>Personally, I don't have a desire to expand the contest beyond wakes'ing, so our attendance and draw would be less - and we can't really draw folks beyond about a 50 to 75 mile radius for a grassroots event. <BR> <BR>Nick...you can go ahead and drop the rope, I'm sure that we will get it organized under NWL - I mean they are willing, Chris, Ed S and I spoke several months ago and he was supportive then. I just need to get over my phobia <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

You mean wouldn't consider organizing a gathering without sanctioning, right? <BR> <BR>Other than a small sanctioning fee of $25, $5 per "student" insurance, and gas there are no other expenses. <BR> <BR>At Morse Lake we started off at Wolfie’s, an on the water restaurant. We had lunch and dinner at Wolfie’s, that was easy. Again if a local boat dealership was interested in supporting a gathering, they could help with gas or set up a grill and feed folks.

Right Ed, personally, I'd not host a gathering without it being sanctioned.

Are there any pro wakesurfers in the Orlando area? <BR> <BR>I'm pretty sure we could do some good publicity stuff with a pro surfing behind one of them there NASCAR themed Centurions. <BR> <BR>e

Ed, I don't know how close he is to Orlando but Drew Danielo calls Florida home and you couldn't do much better then the 3X world champion.

Drew also rides for Centurian.

I'm quiet sure they (somebody) was out surfing during speed weeks in Daytona. Lake Lloyd is plenty deep and plenty big. Centurian has been doing a demo during Speedweeks for at least two years that I know of, this and the last, as well as Eliminator (I gotta admit the DW Daytona was pretty rad). I'll admit I Tivo a lot Speedweeks coverage and if you pay close enough attention, you can see people out there riding all the time. I think it was Alliance that did a story on it last year? They (not exactly sure who) went so far as to have those guys ride during the 500. Talk about a dream vacation for me. Fat motorcoach in the infield, right next to Lake Lloyd. Come early for the 24HRs of Daytona. Chill for a week and ride, followed by two weeks of Speedweeks and riding in between, ending with the 500. Huh. Yeahhh. Wait, what we're we talking about? Oh yeah, I'm quite sure they (somebody with Centurian) are surfing at a NASCAR event currently. However, it's just the one event that they are actually riding at, so far as I know. Off the top of my head, I think they are doing 8 stops on the Cup circuit. Jeff, didn't you say you new a dude? I, along with several of my riding buddies will be at the Pheonix race in April.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0> I wonder how deep Firebird is? Time to break out a map and a phone. I'll find the spot, you hook up the boats. Readyyyyyy, BREAK! <BR> <BR>(Message edited by nickypoo on March 02, 2007)

Wait a minute. Drew! Can I be your friend and we can go to NASCAR and surf and hang out and stuff?<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

From the Centurian site: <BR> <BR><i>02/10: Budweiser Shootout, Daytona International Speedway <BR> <BR>02/18: Daytona 500, Daytona International Speedway <BR> <BR>02/25: Auto Club 500, California Speedway <BR> <BR>04/01: Martinsville 500, Martinsville Speedway <BR> <BR>04/21: Subway Fresh 500, Phoenix International Raceway <BR> <BR>04/29: Aaron’s 499, Talladega Superspeedway <BR> <BR>05/05: Crown Royal 400, Richmond International Speedway <BR> <BR>06/17: Michigan 400, Michigan International Speedway <BR> <BR>07/07: Pepsi 400, Daytona International Speedway <BR> <BR>07/15: USG Sheetrock 400, Chicagoland Speedway <BR> <BR>08/12: Watkins Glen International, Watkins Glen International <BR> <BR>09/02: California 500, California Speedway <BR> <BR>09/08: Richmond 400, Richmond International Speedway <BR> <BR>11/18: Ford 400, Homestead-Miami Speedway <BR> <BR>*Schedule is tentative and subject to change without notice.</i> <BR> <BR>How do I bum a ride Drew?

Oh, so your one of them dang tourists that clogs up I-95 for us Florida residents who have to use it to get home on Sunday nights <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>. <BR> <BR>I spoke with the Orlando Centurion dealer (who brought the boats to daytona) two days after the 500. <BR> <BR>He knows my passion for wakesurfing and didn't mention there was any surfing behind one of his boats. <BR> <BR>I'm telling ya, it ain't that big in Florida yet. <BR> <BR>Air Chair is more popular. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by ed_g on March 02, 2007)

Check the gallery brotha.<a href="http://www.centurionboats.com/gallery/photos.php" target="_blank">http://www.centurionboats.com/gallery/photos.php</a> <BR> <BR>Only one shot posted, but I'm doubting it was the only ride. Maybe Drew will spot this and stop by and tell us a story.

I got a note into the dealer. If those shots were taken this year, I'll find out the scoop and try to get the riders' name. <BR> <BR>I see the same guy is doing some wakeskating too.

OK, but yes, that was this year, the scoop is Centurian and NASCAR hook up, and the rider is Drew Daniello if I'm not mistaken, and he does quite a bit of wakeskating as well. <BR> <BR>Or I could be completely wrong. Always a strong possibility of that.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

I bet your correct - the weather sure looks right. <BR> <BR>I believe it was about 50 degrees (for the high) that day. <BR> <BR>It was way too cold for me to be out wakesurfing <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>.

Ya, it looked pretty miserable out there. However, I would have rather been there, rather than where I was.

So I'm not going to bother with trying to get the INT folks into it, at least for this year. They just aren't gonna do it. One story I heard was that a few families still feel wakesurfing is dangerous and they don't want their kids doing it and if the temptation were there, they might want to. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0> I don't know, just a story. I think the real reason is that this is going to be the final year for the current management. Pretty doubtful that they will want to start a new division when the ones they currently have are too much for the amount of available resources they have. That I can understand. Whatever. <BR> <BR>On the other hand, I talked to some other powers that be and got a lot of excitement going for at least some demo days. They seem pretty stoked on the idea. Everyone I talked to at the boat show, from salesmen, to factory reps, to board reps, to Joe Shmo boat buyer all surfed. It mostly smelled like a "blow up", mostly.

Does anyone have a picture of a hand grenade for Nick and his "blow up" - or maybe one of those inflatable significant others? I think you get confused with your terminology. <BR> <BR>Just so that I'm clear, the NV INT league isn't showing you the love when it comes to wakesurfing? This seems to echo the sentiments that I got from the top.

Nick, i still agree with you on the mad potential this sport has. Some people will always be conservatives and that's fine if it works for them. For me, i'm putting stock in this sport b/c i love it and have fun EVERY single time i go out, it never gets old! And since i was introduced to the sport a short 6 months ago or so we have been out riding every single weekend, twice if there's still gas left after saturday's run, rain or shine. It doesn't get THAT cold here in the winter but it's still enough to find out how committed you are to riding that day. <BR> <BR>We've also taught a good handful of (almost up to 10) people to ride and they all love it and keep calling to ask when we're going out again. <BR> <BR>I can understand Jeff's held-back enthusiasm b/c he's been involved in the sport for a while now and has seen closed doors and missed opportunities. However, that's not going to deter me in trying to set up events and get more and more people involved in the sport b/c it's fun and i tihnk everybody should get to try it at least once in their life. And if it's boring for spectators to watch from the sidelines then guess whose job it is to keep them entertained? <BR> <BR>So we've got to come up with more creative ways to promote the sport and then ways to keep the masses entertained at events and coming back for more. Otherwise it could die out or just remain at the grass-roots event level (which is still fun but national recognition would benefit everybody, riders and manufacturers and sponsors alike).

How much influence would we have if everybody who posts in the Wakesurf section of this 1 msg board were to work together to organize events in 2007 and help our sport get exposure? <BR> <BR>How many new surfers do you think that would create, and spectators and attention from possible sponsors and media? Where's that blow up doll!? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/yawn.gif" border=0> Nobody else is going to blow up this sport but us.

Jon, bless your soul. I LOVE your enthusiasm, what I don't want to have happen is for it to burn out. I think what I'd REALLY like to do, is nurture it in a positive manner. If we are being met by disinterest by national folks, then we need to cultivate a broader base at a local level. Set aside the national forum for the time being. In my mind, that includes the visions of grandiosity in favor of local events. <BR> <BR>I think, as you propose, if we could develop 50 local gatherings - one in each state, the sport is better served and folks like yourself are better served - you get the fun and the local contest, collectively, as you suggest, there is a GREAT deal of clout, but...only if it's organized and we are, in fact, acting as a collective "us" <BR> <BR>To me, what makes more sense is a collective effort. We create a standarized approach to throwing a contest or a gathering and then from a national level, "we" attempt to recruit one hardcore enthusiast in each state. <BR> <BR>If it's organized and a single unit rather than my group HERE and your group THERE when the likes of HL or CWB or LF come knocking on the door we can say - sheesh where were you 4 years ago? Sure, come on in and bring your checkbook. <BR> <BR>I think that our focus needs to be on supporting and building small local grassroots evets, demos of boats and boards and on the establishment of business relationships locally. <BR> <BR>I'm certainly open for discussion, I would LOVE to reach a concensus on how best to approach building the sport - grenades and blowup dolls aside <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Thoughts anyone?

Hmmm, I was thinking "blow up" like your bathroom.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>Yes, you are clear Jeff, no love from the NV INT. Quite frankly, I'm over it with those guys. They don't seem too interested in even thinking about it. I guess when you have 20 slalom divisions, 10 wakeboard divisions, 5 wakeskate divisions and an <i>Outlaw Kneeboard</i> division to look after, it's just too much to even look at another wake sport.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/angry.gif" border=0> OK, vent over. <BR> <BR>I'm starting to understand your point of view more and more each day, Jeff. The short sightedness of some people can be awfully frustrating. I'll try to keep my candle burning on one end. <BR> <BR>I'm thinking that in order to get to some sort of National level, the "standardized approach" is going to be key. Can we put together a plan for an event so we can all look at it and try to build off of it. Jeff, I know you put together a points list last year didn't you? I'm guessing you also have a contest format planned out somewhere? How do the other contests go down? Where do the judges come from? Where do the drivers come from? What dimensions work good for a course?

Not the bathroom! Judy just got through with the whole remodel, she'll skin me alive! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I do have the points document, but to be honest I did that work primarily for the INT League. The "grandfathers" of the sport have always promulgated a more freestyle format. I would like to use that trick list for training purposes, just not for actually judging the contest. <BR> <BR>The NWL - well in particular Chris Walker with the NWL is bending over backwards for us right now and I think that with the NWL wanting to promote the sport, we'll be able to build upon a solid foundation. <BR> <BR>We have a good solid format, Ed S has been using it and it's been the format used by Tom Regan, the AzWA, the World's, Blue Turns, etc, etc, etc...I think we have all the documets ready to go, we just need a supporting organizational structure and a bunch of enthusiasts. <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I'll send you all of that via email...if you stop making comments about my bald "spot" <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

Spot! Hell, I thought it was a full moon that day!<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0> OK, no more bald jokes. Sorry. I'll shoot you my e-mail address.

Nick, <BR> <BR>Just got a response from the Orlando dealer...turns out we were BOTH correct. <BR> <BR>The wakesurfing was done this year. <BR> <BR>The Orlando boat dealer did have his Nascar Edition Centurions there, but they were all on display under a tent and none were in the water. <BR> <BR>He said he was so busy at the event he wasn't even aware of anyone wakesurfing or wakeboarding. <BR> <BR>The Nascar edition used as tow boats were owned by Centurion. <BR> <BR>Supposedly, Speed Vision Channel was there to video the riding. <BR> <BR>regards <BR> <BR>e

Right on. Thanks for the follow up Ed.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>God bless the Speed Channel.

I think I'll chime in here again with why I think wakesurfing <b>will</b> "blow up" despite it's image problem of not being extreme enough. <BR> <BR>The fact that everyone in the boat can do it is obvious. What I think is going to be the deciding factor in it "blowing up" is that being so close to everyone in the boat really makes it more of an interactive experience then most boardsports. Sure it's not as flashy and dangerous as wakeboarding. It doesn't appeal as much to the 15-30yr old wanting to kill themselves in the name of glory but I guess I'm missing something here. Isn't the primary motivation behind most boating purchases to provide an opportunity to bond and do something together as a family. I know that's how I got introduced to water sports as a kid and IMO wakesurfing delivers on that experience. <BR> <BR> I also think there's a lot bigger demographic of aging "X" generation boarders such as myself then most people realize. Just because my body's too old to be hucking inverts anymore doesn't mean I'm ready for shuffleboard quite yet.

What, in your opinion Sean (and Nick and Jon and who else was there? <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> ), entails a "blow up" of the sport. If we are all saying the same thing, but the nomenclature is the issue - then there really isn't a discussion. The terminology is so vague as to be misleading. <BR> <BR>Maybe we can come to some terms...like there will be a 2000% increase in participation over 6 months or something. <BR> <BR>What constitues a sport "blowing up"?

Sean- That's just about what I got out of the boat show this year. Just about everyone I talked to (mostly aging "X" generation boarders) are all "over" wakeboarding. Most of us ("X" generation boarders) are just getting tired of going out breaking ourselves. I know I am. We are at the point in our lives when we finally have a little money and a little brains and we just want to go out and have fun. Torn ligaments and broken bones just aren't fun. Wakesurfing offers all the fun, the technical challenge and none of the risk. It's a win/win deal and everybody seems to be coming on board.