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-   Archive through December 26, 2006 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=401011)
-   -   Centurion Avalanche C4 vs. Sanger V230 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390881)

angrygolucky 11-20-2006 5:36 PM

I'm weighing between the 2. Have yet to test drive, but will soon. I'm sure that will be the ultimate test for me, but I would love to hear from people who have experienced either boat and what their opinions are of them. <BR>Both positives as well as negatives.. <BR>Thanks!!

angrygolucky 11-20-2006 7:27 PM

Anyone?

fbi 11-20-2006 8:43 PM

Not much experience with the Sanger. The Avalanche is an awesome boat. Wide Beam, great rough water ride and if you are on the east side of the rockies, get the PCM engine. Great value for the money and the company is awesome. Think twice about the side swipe exhaust. Pretty noisy. No bow rise either. Huge plus. I do know Sanger is a smaller company so resale probably isn't as good and they have wood floors. Other than that, don't know much else.

angrygolucky 11-20-2006 8:51 PM

Not east of the rockies. California, is where i'm located. How's the wake? With and without stock ballast? Switchblade? <BR> <BR>Rough water ride is part of the reason I'm looking @ these 2. I'll be on Lake Tahoe for 2 weeks solid every year. It can get pretty rough on a large lake like that. <BR>I love hearing peoples feedback because there's usually little things that you wouldn't think of until you've spent some time on the water in or behind them...

mendo247 11-20-2006 9:23 PM

"Anyone?" <BR> <BR>are you sure you want to open the gates??<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

angrygolucky 11-20-2006 9:32 PM

hahaha.... anyone with something constructive to contribute???

wake_upppp 11-20-2006 9:45 PM

Bottom line Mike, once you test drive/ride the two, the decision will be quite easy! I'll leave it at that. That or I could tell you to buy the Sanger.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

mendo247 11-20-2006 9:47 PM

aiiiigggghtttt ill bite lol..and yes i am partial! the V230 is one of my favorite boats.. no one can argue that sanger makes one of the best boats out.. the wake is good stock and can get really meaty when weighted.. sangers have always been known for their great rought water ride and awesome handling..at first peak they wont have all the "bling" as some of the other companies.. Centurions on the other hand i really dont know much about the new ones, ive been around plenty of them 4 or 5 years old and have not been impressed at all.. they felt cheap and were just flat out falling apart.. i will say that the new ones seem a hell of allot nicer! personally id let someone else find out if they were going to hold up better in the long run.. ive also seen quite a few people fighting the wakes on the centurions (ie trying to get them form rolling over on one side) where you will literally have to try to mess a sanger wake up! a test drive will help you out for sure.. to conclude, i will guarntee that you will not be disapointed with a sanger...

typhoon 11-20-2006 10:08 PM

sanger...hands down...

angrygolucky 11-20-2006 10:17 PM

Any other reason TY? I'm wondering why? The Centurions seems pretty damn nice, and each owner definitely has goggles... Every Sanger owner is passionate about their boat. Why?? And is there anything you don't like about it? <BR> <BR>The kicker here is where I'm at there are 2 centurion dealers and only one Sanger.. And of the 3, I'm not convinced the Sanger dealer has great after purchase service. I'm going to check them out again, but I'd like to make the decision based mainly on the boat. <BR>Thanks for the help folks please keep it coming... <BR>Any Centurion owners?

mikeski 11-20-2006 10:24 PM

My friends with Sangers seem to have higher opinions of their boats than my friends with Centurions. Truth be know it's actually the same owner, but they are very different companies. <BR> <BR>Sanger probably has the edge when you focus on styling and gelcoat finish. <BR> <BR>Centurion probably has a more convenient interior layout. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by mikeski on November 20, 2006)

jovedawake 11-20-2006 10:41 PM

Well my family owns a V230 and let me tell you... <BR> <BR>It puts out an awesome wake. BIG and RAMPY. We have more ballast than stock, but the stock wake is still good, just smaller. <BR> <BR>Don't believe me? Go ride behind one. All of my friends that ride much better than myself have all loved the wake. They have all gotten back in the boat and said something similar to, "Sweeeeeeeeeeet wake" over and over again. And they have been behind other boats, such as Nauique and Malibu. GO RIDE IT! <BR> <BR>As far as Jason's comment, I'm sure the Avalanche cuts through chop good, but from what others have said on here, and simply just me assuming, it doesn't compare to the V230. We take our V230 out on the Great Lakes sometimes and it handles chop like a champ. <BR> <BR>It is no Boston Whaler, but this is wakeboarding, not fishing. Chop is no problem for a V230. Don't believe me? Again, test drive one on a choppy day. You will see. <BR> <BR>AND as far a the wood floors/stringers, that is one of the best parts about a Sanger. They won't rot because of Sanger's meticulous attention to detail and quality. And their wood is more sturdy than fiberglass. Leaving you with a more sturdy boat. <BR> <BR>Read this thread and see what Fuel writes about the wood that Sanger uses... <BR>}<a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/388641.html?1163616279" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/388641.html?1163616279</a> <BR> <BR> <BR>I know I'm only 18 and you are might be thinking, I'm only on the Sanger side because that is the boat daddy bought. <BR> <BR>Later in life I may try out other boats (it can never hurt to demo). I just love driving boats. But I know I will always keep an eye on Sanger as they are certainly (in my opinion) the best-built boat, especially for the money. In my opinion they are on top as far as build quality. <BR> <BR>Anyways, I don't consider myself a Sanger worshiper, but I definitely enjoy the boat, the wake, and the zero problems we have had for two years. <BR> <BR>I can answer any questions that you may have...about turning, engine, ballast, speakers, etc. <BR> <BR>I'm telling you though, once you are done test driving these two boats (do tons of hard turns, drive through lots of chop, and test out that wake), you will fall in love with the V230. <BR> <BR>That's my prediction.

krbaugh 11-21-2006 12:00 AM

"Truth be know it's actually the same owner, but they are very different companies. " <BR> <BR>They are different owners and different Companies <BR> <BR> <BR>Kal Kustom is a Distributor for both Centurion and Sanger but does not own either company. <BR> <BR>Both are great boats The newer Centurions will have more bling than the Sangers. Very different construction. Demo both boats my opionion the Centurion will have a bit better rough water ride.

r3612 11-21-2006 1:32 AM

I'd have to agree with Kevin on the rough water ride. Sanger's are def up there and I would say are top next to Centurion. But the ICS construction and that cooler in the center reinforces the boat tremendously. No flex at all in the chop...My fam has a house in Tahoe and have been out there so know how it can get. Both boats will be able to handle that water for sure. <BR> <BR>As to the bling...07 Centurions are again stepped up 2 more notches than 06. Looking very slick with swivel board racks and just offer a little more bling. <BR> <BR>I'd have to disagree on the gelcoat and styling though. I"d say it's a draw for sure.....All their accents and color codes are all in-the gelcoat. No stickers except for the logos....and personally I think the the Centurion logo's are much more stylish...but I like plain boats...just look at my profile pic. <BR> <BR>Wakes are going to be totally different. The Centurion is going to have a much steeper wake meanig it will give you a bucking type of pop...whereas the Sanger wil be much more rampy and smooth. Not to say one is better than the other it's all personal preference. I like th epoppiness of the Centurion wakes. Either one is going to be great. Biggest advantage though is the Switchblade option on the Avy. Gets you near pro level with just factory ballast whereas the sanger will require some extar sacs to achieve that. As some have stated the Centurion wakes have been known to be a little touchy, but that is mainly on their smaller boats such as the cyclone and Lightning. I have owned 3 Centurions and have been around them a ton.... will tell you that the wake problem is mostly prevelant on the boats with a manual wakeplate. If you get the hydraulic one it's almost a dead issue. Never had a curl problem when the plate is up and the wake was dialed. The problem is that most people think Centurion's wakeplate will shape the wake....It's just not true....you need that plate all the way up to a 1/4 down to get the best wake out of it. If it;s lower than a 1/4 it then starts to curl. Just most people are misinformed and not taken through the proper tests and demo's in my opinion regarding the wakeplate on the Centurions. It's use is mainly for cruising and to bury the nose on those choppy days.... not to shape the wake like other companies who offer a wakeplate. Would never buy a Centurion without a hydraulic one PERIOD. <BR> <BR>Storage wise both gonna be there as they are huge boats. <BR>Power plants ince you're west not an issue as both are mercs. In my opinion on those big boats opt for the upgrade for sure. Will help resale and fuel economy as well <BR> <BR>Either boat is gonna be a great time though so try and ride behind both and see which wake you like better. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by r3612 on November 21, 2006)

angrygolucky 11-21-2006 3:49 AM

So are you saying you prefer the hydraulic wakeplate OVER the switchblade? Or is the switchblade the hydraulic you're talking about. <BR>Will extra ballast do the trick if I'm not so sure about the switchblade and go with the plate? ( or are there 3 options and i['m missing one?)

walt 11-21-2006 6:23 AM

Demo, demo and then demo.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

typhoon 11-21-2006 6:38 AM

if you look at construction, centuraion has been plagued with problems over the years. Fit and finish of quality is way up there on sanger. Not as flashy, but much higher quality. It is the best rough water ride of any comp boat. Very ver sturdy. Also, when i was buying mine, i asked my buddy who is the service manager at a boat shop which boat he sees the least of. He said he sees the centurion with the most problems. He sees the malibu next, usually related to electrical in the dash and/or gauges. He said that when they sell a sanger, he never sees it again unless he is doing routine maintenance. Also, i know this will cause some disagreements but...i we trade off boats all the time when we ride betwee an mb, malibu wakesetter, sometimes a centurion, and my sanger.

typhoon 11-21-2006 6:40 AM

anyway, i really like the malibu, but the wake shape is one of the best on the sanger and by far one of the tallest. very rampy. I run mine with about 700 pound in the center to bow. If we really want to go larger, i fill twin 280's in the rear.

krbaugh 11-21-2006 6:58 AM

After spending 10 years on the MC promo team and 6 on the CEnturion promo team, and my close friends who are dealers that have sold Centurions, Supras, and MasterCrafts. Centurions in my experiance are no more plagued with problems than anyone else.

mendo247 11-21-2006 8:39 AM

"Every Sanger owner is passionate about their boat. Why??" <BR> <BR>not true! i have no problem admiting my boat is not "the best boat out there" yeah i would have liked to of gotten a vlx or xstar but at this point in my life i thought sanger was the most bang for the buck.. im sure i looked at the same boats as you have and most likely youll pick the boat that works for you.. good luck!

litlone873 11-21-2006 11:49 AM

Mike... you have been deliberating about this for MONTHS... pick the Sanger already! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0>

sangerlover 11-21-2006 12:33 PM

Buy the Sanger ! Nothing else needs to be said.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/talker.gif" border=0>

litlone873 11-21-2006 1:00 PM

Mike - I understand your concern regarding the service issue, but honestly I think it's far less of a concern than you think. We bought our boat from CV Marine in San Jose. We live in Sacramento. We have NEVER taken it back to CV Marine for service because its just too far, nor did we take it to the Sacramento dealer because we have heard bad things about them. Other places will work on your boat and as long as they are Mercrusier certified, you're good to go. Also, Sanger will pay anyone for warranty work as long as they are Mercrusier certified and will accept Sanger's warranty rate (otherwise you may have to pay the difference). For the last service, we drove it all the way to Delta Sport Boats near the Delta. We have also taken it to Larson Marine and even had a mobile guy do it. At this point, we are searching for the best price and highest level of confidence. Either way, dealing with finding a place to service your boat is far less of a concern than spending as many hours IN your boat and enjoying it. <BR> <BR>Now, one thing you should know is that Sanger has recently signed a contract with Marine Max so many of the previous dealers will no longer carry them. We will be looking into Marine Max for our next service in January. But if they are still more expensive, we may take it back to Delta. <BR> <BR>The bottom line is, with a Sanger, you won't need much service other than general maintenance. And if for some reason you have a real issue, Sanger is the best to deal with (the company, not necessarily the dealers). So stop stressing and buy the Sanger. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0>

jovedawake 11-21-2006 1:10 PM

Mike, <BR>Push hard on the hulls, see which one has more flex. <BR> <BR>Richard, <BR>Those boats may have more bling and fun little features, but when you look at the price and the solid quality of a Sanger, you or I may regret buying the more expensive boat when it begins to fall apart and the wallets are looking empty. I just hope I never get sucked into buying a boat because of the name or cool features that really just add more problems to a boat a times. <BR> <BR>I'm not saying our Sanger is a perfect boat. There is nothing perfect in this world and of course, I always want more. BUT Sanger sure does come close to being perfect.

jovedawake 11-21-2006 1:12 PM

I love Walts response. Instead of blabbing on like myself, he simply knows what will make your decision. DEMO.

r3612 11-21-2006 1:14 PM

Mike.....If I"m not mistaken you can get both. The wakeplate is still available with the switchblade. They are 2 different things. I have seen 2 Avy's that have the Switchblade and the wakeplate. Only been in a boat to see the wake so never rode behind one with the switchblade yet. but from what my buddy's have told me It's def an option worth splurdgin for if you can. BEst of both worlds if you ask me <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>I havw owned 3 Centurions in the most recent years. 00 Air Warrior, 02 Hurricane(now lightning) 04 Cyclone. Can honestly say only problem with gauges was that stupid Pilot One gauge from Faria that Centurion used. On both my later boats that thing just went haywire all the time. Centurion has addressed the issue and no longer does that gauge. Was a waste anyway if you ask me....too many useless things on an overpriced depth/water and air temp gauge.. <BR> <BR>Other than that gauge never once experienced an electrical malfunction whatsoever. Engine wise had couple problems, but that is null because both use same powerplants. <BR> <BR>Again agree with Kevin......Have several close friends who run a Mastercraft dealer, Nauty dealer and Supra dealer. All new boats have kinks for the most part. Centurion is no more plauged than others, <BR> <BR> <BR>This biggest problem we face with Centurion is that the dealer network here in Northern IL/Southern WI SUCKS. been through 4dealers in past 3yrs. All but oine has frikin plain blown! So def make sure you look into the dealer. They are basically who is gonna help you on warranty claims and are usually the one with the extra oooomfff to get stuff covered.

tomcalabria 11-21-2006 5:28 PM

Sanger, Sanger! One of the best boats for the money IMO. It was a tough choice for me between Calabria and Sanger. The Centurion had more bling factor but I did not like the quality and finish on The Centurion. It looked good from a distance but when you get closer it was not impressive.

c4avalanchen 11-21-2006 6:33 PM

Tom, don't bash another boat if you've only seen it. How stupid is that! <BR>Mike, it's impossible to get unbiased opinions on these websites. Both boats are great. However, i'd go with the better dealer whichever it may be. What dealer do you want to do all of your buying at, and not just boat repairs, but accessories and such. Because you will spend more money on accessories than boat repairs. My dealer gives me great discounts on boards, ropes, vests, clothes, etc..., just because I bought a boat from them. They also have a great boardshop inside. Stuff like that is more important. <BR>DEMO AND DEALERSHIP. The two most important words in boat buying. Period!

walt 11-21-2006 6:47 PM

Charlie, <BR> <BR>The truth is I've done more than my fair share of blabbing about different boats but the bottom line is Mike needs to get his ass out there and experience them both for himself.

zipe 11-21-2006 6:59 PM

Don't know about those two specific models in comparison, but I bought my Sanger DLX back in '99 as an entry level boat because I simply couldn't afford a Correct Craft or Mastercraft. The plan was to buy it and hopefully upgrade in two or three years. Well, seven years later and after being in and behind all of the big boys out there I decided to finally upgrade. I now can afford a Malibu or Mastercraft, but arriving in my driveway tomorrow morning is a new Sanger V215. Go with the Sanger. You won't regret it! <BR> <BR>Shawn

litlone873 11-21-2006 7:26 PM

Mike... I would hate for you to choose a boat based on dealer. Don't be a victim of: <BR> <BR>"Man this boat sucks, but I sure do like my dealer!" or; <BR>"It's a good thing I got a great dealer because this boat spends a lot of time in the shop" <BR> <BR>I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Centurian, because I'm not. It's just that based on what I have read on this and other threads, Centurian has a history or problems that may or may not have been corrected in newer models. Sanger has a history of being well built and great customer service.

krbaugh 11-21-2006 9:17 PM

Or I love this boat but I can't stand the dealer they are incompetent so I have to sell it or drive hours to a good dealer. It can go both ways

mobv 11-21-2006 9:26 PM

I have an 05 Avalanche C4 that we have put 300 plus hours on since July 05. There have been no problems with the boat, a couple Mercruiser issues that the dealer an Mercruiser took care of in very timely manner. Never missed a day on the water. The boat is very solid and makes a great wake when balanced properly.

bigshow 11-21-2006 9:38 PM

I've had a great service experience with my Centurion - both dealer and factory. This year I had a Merc electrical problem - Fineline got involved, the factory support looks to be very good. <BR> <BR>I'd be surprise if the wakeplate and switch blade work together, maybe shocked. <BR> <BR>My Lightning feels very solid, it's the walk-thru cooler - a smart idea. <BR> <BR>I had the Pilot One gauge it was nothing but trouble, but was replaced with a new temp-depth gauge at no cost. Thatís a vendor problem which the boat manufacturer corrected. The new gauge works great. <BR> <BR>I think the boat dealership business is a difficult one, much different than autos. The local dealer that had MC, bu, and CC folded this year, not to worry someone will fill the void, in some cases already have.

krbaugh 11-21-2006 9:45 PM

Ed You are right. <BR> <BR>The bennet trim tab and switchblade DONOT work together it is one or the other

r3612 11-21-2006 9:53 PM

So I do have ownership goggles I would say.....I"m curious to those who posted that fit and finish was poor on the Centurions....What exactly sticks out in your mind? What type of things "made it poor". Everyone is always saying this sucks that sucks go with this instead, but never with any validation on why. I"m just curious what jumps out at people..... <BR> <BR> <BR>I have a couple such as my cup holders don't sit level. Annoying but tollerable...and the shifter knob I replaced thought the standard was cheap, but that has changed now as well. Any boat has things that stick out that we don't like. can guarantee that. Like I said just curious as to what others see. <BR> <BR>Charlie,,, <BR> <BR>Curious to see how exactly pushing on the hull will flex it...You must change into the Hulk...Do you know how much fiberglass and reinforcement is in a hull? A one hand push is not gonna get you far on any MFG's boat........Mine as well kick the tire to see how good she's gonna hold up too.

r3612 11-21-2006 10:01 PM

Kev <BR> <BR> The Boardstock edition boat I was in and behind I could have sworn had both.... maybe just was a manual one, but I'm 100% it had both as did the one I saw on the showroom floor. Gonna have to check that out.......HMMMM <BR> <BR>(Message edited by r3612 on November 21, 2006)

krbaugh 11-21-2006 10:03 PM

They do have a small manul plate

r3612 11-21-2006 10:10 PM

Ahhhh knew I wasn't crazy Thaks

jovedawake 11-21-2006 10:35 PM

KJ, <BR> <BR>That is just something I have always done and believe me or not...there have been boats that I have pushed on with one hand and there was flex in the hull. I also knock and listen (although I'm not really a expert on how a hull should sound exactly, but I don't like it when I can push the hull in). <BR> <BR>I'm not saying a Centurion does, just something I would test if I were to ever consider buying one. <BR> <BR>If you don't believe, next time you go to a boat show, knock and push on all the hulls. Some sound and feel cheap...

r3612 11-22-2006 5:11 AM

knocking is totally different than just pushing. It creates a resonance and also a sound that can give you some insight. And that you can notice things especially dampening. <BR> <BR>You look like a chooch when you do it, but it does give you a good idea.

bigshow 11-22-2006 6:14 AM

I think the small "manual plate" is fixed. It's about as wide as a regular trim tab but only 3 or 4 inches long and FIXED. <BR> <BR>About fit and finish (FnF) - that's kind of nebulous, I'd like a good description of what it is. It would be interesting to go to a boat show and score boats. I saw in another thread that one manufacturer doesn't use backing plates for hardware, in my mind that's not FnF, it basic design. FnF is how well assemblers did their job, did quality make them do it over (or let it slip through), and some design details.

jovedawake 11-22-2006 10:52 PM

You're right. It is totally different, but they are both useful. I would not want a hull that sounds like crap, nor would I want a hull that has a lot of flex.

angrygolucky 11-24-2006 5:02 PM

Thanks for the input folks... I can tell the Sanger owners are every passionate about their boats.. I think I'll try another thread to hear from the other side only.. <BR>Hopefully I'll have a test drive in the next week or 2..

tomcalabria 11-24-2006 9:12 PM

Rodney, I tested most every boat out there before I bought mine. I drove/ have driven the Centurions, Mastercrafts, Sangers, Supras, Moombas, Nautiques, etc. and I still say that at at distance the Centurions look good, but up close I think that it still looks poorer in quality than the other boats. The wake has also tends to wash out, IMO. <BR>______________________________________________ ___ <BR>So Rodney, before you go throwing negative comments about someone else, get over your ownership googles. By the way, I do not own a Sanger but I think that it is a great boat not bashing another just my opinion (which I have every right to have). <BR> <BR>(Message edited by tomcalabria on November 24, 2006)

angrygolucky 11-24-2006 9:24 PM

Everybody says the wake is more sensitive on the Centurion. I would figure that has to do with the deeper V hull. So what's the worse case scenario with that? Move a few people? Add extra ballast? <BR>As far as the up close appearance, thats really a judgement call that could easily be debated.. I saw 2 sangers side by side that looked far different from one another. One looked really good, while the other looked flat and dull. The Centurions up close looked just as good, and not all that different finish wise from any of the other boats I've looked at. What makes it poorer in quality? Was this consistent for all centurions you've seen?

jovedawake 11-24-2006 10:17 PM

As far as quality goes, it's more what you don't see. They may both appear about the same on the outside, but for a Sanger the materials used and how they are used will pass the test of time and wear.

angrygolucky 11-24-2006 10:43 PM

I was asking what made the finish poorer in quality. What was it that caused Tom to make that observation?

c4avalanchen 11-24-2006 11:41 PM

Mike, let a Centurion owner give you facts not biases about an Avalanche C4. <BR>First of all, a lot of these people are basing their opinions on older model Centurions. Which I can somewhat agree that before 05', Centurion's interior quality wasn't exactly top notch. Anyways, the Avalanche C4 has been in the lineup since 03'. I believe as every other Centurion owner believes that 05' was a turning point in the interior dept. The vinyl is much thicker and eye-pleasing with triple stitched seams and a billet package (optional) that really spruces it up. The carpet is 40oz snap out. The hatch clamps are top notch etc.... In other words, there is nothing garbage about about the interiors anymore. <BR> The hull has been the same since 03' and takes some tweaking to weight it correctly, but that seems to be the same for every boat i've been in except maybe a VLX. The Avalanche likes lots of weight up front. <BR> I have over 100 hrs on my boat, and haven't had an issue. My wake is steep and lippy with great pop back to 80 ft. Some of the things I don't like about my boat that were corrected in 06' and 07' is the transom mounted ballast pumps, the smallish teak only swim platform, and Pilot 1, which is no longer available. It has been a great boat so far. I would easily buy another, but with the Switchblade.

jovedawake 11-25-2006 11:35 AM

All you care about is the finish? <BR> <BR>That's like eating garbage covered with chocolate(To the extreme, I know). <BR> <BR>Any boat manufacturer can make their finish look good, if they want to. It is more what is underneath that counts (The time and careful building process). <BR> <BR>AND I would not buy a boat that has a super touchy wake that is washing out all the time. If one person were to slightly make the boat a little off balance and I were to be charging the wake for a raley, and the wake washed out...........ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that would be a great way to get hurt. <BR> <BR>NO thanks.

jovedawake 11-25-2006 11:37 AM

Rodney I think you're opinion would be biased too...if not more.

angrygolucky 11-25-2006 12:32 PM

Charlie, of course I care about more than the finish, but I was responding to Tom's specific comment about the finish. <BR>I have yet to see that any boat in this price range is garbage so please refrain from the "extreme" comments. That doesn't nothing but insult people. <BR>Now, your example of the touchy wake is great. Something that could be based in fact - which is what I'm looking for. I would figure people moving would do that to any boat. My cousin was behind the MC-X-30 and she motioned for one of us to reposition so it balanced the wake to her liking. <BR>Fact is both boats have plusses and minuses. I've heard from more Sanger owners about their boats, thats why I was asking centurion specific questions. I started a new thread to get their feedback as well. Now it will be time to test drive, which I'll be able to do the first week of Dec.. Right now as far as the boats go, I'm split down the middle. But when it comes to the dealer, I'm leaning one way. I'm looking forward to the test drives.. <BR>Any any other opinions from people, opinions based in fact is what I'm looking for. Thanks to everybody for all of the input and if there's any more please don't hesitate to post or email me. <BR>Thanks!

jovedawake 11-25-2006 12:57 PM

sorry mike for the extreme comment. I was giving an example "to the extreme". I was not calling centurion garbage or anyone for that matter. <BR> <BR>enjoy the test drive.

angrygolucky 11-25-2006 2:33 PM

Dude, it's all good. I'm just looking for fact based opinions and things to look out for. I had heard about bad quality in Centurions, Rodney's post alluded to that above. When I went and saw them I was impressed. It was after I saw Sanger's so I could see how Sanger owners could say their boat lacked the "bling". <BR>So, thats why I wanted to find out more info on 2 boats from people that know the 2 brands. Was one lacking in a certain area more than the other. <BR>Both are good for choppy water, both seem to do skiing as well, both good for boarding-Although everyone agrees the Centurion is a little touchy and I'm sure it needs additional weight added to it to be cool, as where the Sanger would a lil easier in that departent.. <BR> <BR>Anything else that hasn't been addressed?

r3612 11-25-2006 2:53 PM

As to the touchyness <BR> <BR> <BR>Everyboat has that problem when people move around....One person in the wrong spot can give you wash in any boat.. The problem with the Centurion wash is due to the fact that it has such a deep V running surface. The boat is just a little more sensitive than most. It's not going to wash at every little thing and isn't gonna take you forever to get the weight placemnt right. It cleans up very nicely. It just is a little more sensitive to deal with COMPAREd to other boats not IMMANGEABLE (if that is even a word.) <BR> <BR>For me that is a small trade off that I choose to accept for the ride a performance I get. The biggest advantage that Centurion has is their out of the box wake. Have tons of non-Centurion owners who will say the same and back me up. The boats deep V asso takes very little weight to get their wakes kicking. Huge plus imo. They have one of the best factory wakes out there. It's bigger than a CC's Bu's and Mc's for sure in their compatable boats, but the advantage that the big three have is that you can just keep throwing weight after weight in them and they still stay clean. The Centurion just can't handle the 2200lbs that those can. It makes the wake very touchy. and that is where that part comes in about the touchy wake for sure....but to me who has 3 solid inverts and can claim 2 more but not consistantly....I don't need 2200lbs in my boat. Never will. All these people who Say you need at leats 2000 otherwise it aint big can blow me. I'm tired of hearing that. Half those people can barely go toeside. I'd say that I"m an intermediate for sure and can pull all my tricks on any stock wake. The Centurion's stock just tends to be bigger, but the big boys just have a greater potential to get MASSIVE. I"ve seen an Avy and have ridden behind one with about 1500 and 6peeps .... And it was sick scary even for me. I would say that most people don't need 2000lbs in their boat, but its all a show of whos wake is thge biggest though.

wake_upppp 11-25-2006 3:33 PM

KJ, could you post some pics of the stock wake? I doubt the Centurion has a bigger stock wake than the 05 and newer VLX, but maybe I'm wrong. Also, I know the dealer is important to alot of people, but you are investing your hard earned money in a company and it's product first and foremost, just remember that. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by wake_upppp on November 25, 2006)

r3612 11-26-2006 1:14 PM

Sparky <BR> <BR>I would agree with you on the factory product, but truth be told when you have a dealer on your side who is in your corner....things move much more smootly and things tend to get done on a much quicker time scale. I"ve been through 4dealers here in the past 3 yrs. One out of those 4 were top notch.....others left you hanging.....Things were taken care of for the most part by all...but when the good dealer was on my side time reduced in most cases by a half and much less of a headache.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/391967.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>Stock Centurion Cyclon C4 wake 23mph 75ft length rider is my buddy 6ft 1inch tall <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/391968.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>Stock Centurion Cyclone C4 wake 23.5 mph 80ft line length Rider also my buddy who is 6ft 1 inch <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/391969.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>Stock 05 X-2 (meaning X1/ old x-star 205v) 23.5 mph 80ft rider me 6ft <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>So let the fun begin <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0>

walt 11-26-2006 1:29 PM

I was riding behind a V215 this weekend. Here's a shot of one side. I think we were going on the slow side (21 mph or so?) <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/391972.jpg" alt="Upload">

krbaugh 11-26-2006 1:32 PM

How much ballast? How long was the line?

walt 11-26-2006 1:38 PM

She was riding at 70 ft. I'd have to check with Richard on the weight but I think he said he was running stock ballast plus 400 in lead.

r3612 11-26-2006 1:40 PM

Walt very nice<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Must say pretty much any wake would be great right about now <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> DAMN WINTER

walt 11-26-2006 1:45 PM

I feel for you guys that can't ride now.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/sad.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>One of the guys had a Centurian this weekend. Nice looking boat but I didn't get to ride in it. <BR> <BR>Check out the ski lockers. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/391975.jpg" alt="Upload">

r3612 11-26-2006 1:50 PM

I just don't know where the guys with all these systems find the time to do them. I barely have enough time to go and ride<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Systems have gotten out of control, but they def look sweet. And alot of props to those who do them

walt 11-26-2006 1:56 PM

It sounds like he's not done with his system yet either.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

litlone873 11-26-2006 4:40 PM

Mike - If you have having issues with ANY Sanger dealer, I'm positive Sanger would like to know about it. Shoot me a PM and I will give you the contact info for Sanger. <BR> <BR>P.S. That's me in Walt's post above <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

wake_upppp 11-26-2006 7:44 PM

KJ, if someone throws up a pic of an 05 and newer VLX wake, you will see the biggest factory wake going IMHO, and I understand dealer is important, but to me, selecting the dealer before the manufacturer is basically conceeding the fact that you're going to NEED that dealer frequently.

angrygolucky 11-26-2006 7:53 PM

No. Not necessarily. In my case I have had 2 not good experiences with one of the dealers. Both left me a little irritated and a little p*ssed off. So do i go to them for my business?? Probably not. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, I'll go talk details, but if I get a lousy vibe from them, I WILL NOT buy my boat from them. <BR>One of the other dealers in the area ( other boat brand) had a good guy working, they have other services that appeal to me, and if they get the #'s right, I would buy from them. <BR> <BR>Dealer can play a big part! But how is that conceding I need anything? I'll give the money to the guy who takes care of his stuff, isn't a jerk, and will take good care of me whenever I do need it! <BR>I had to edit my message because I used a lot of swear words the first draft.. this is part of what has frustrated the heck outta me, and part of the reason I've wanted to find out as much as I can regarding these 2 boats! <BR>You shouldnt spend money like this, and not feel good about it, or have an uncomfortable feeling like you could get stuck because your dealer gives you such a shoddy impression. <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by angrygolucky on November 26, 2006)

wake_upppp 11-26-2006 8:10 PM

Mike, I don't know where you live but in Cali, there is a TON of dealers all over. I bought my boat 4 1/2 hours away from where I live. The boat will never go back there for any warranty work, I can have that done localy. Just because a dealer pisses you off, you write off the boat manufacturer? Common sense would tell you to buy the boat YOU LIKE! Dealers come and go. You can choose from any number of dealers. At the end of the day you have to feel good about the boat you bought, and the deal you got, not who you bought it from. They'll all kiss your a$$ until it's a done deal, then you're just another number, you'll see.

mendo247 11-26-2006 8:23 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>They'll all kiss your a$$ until it's a done deal, then you're just another number, you'll see.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>preach on sparky preach on.. unfortunately that is the case! not all the time but most of the time, im sure there are some exceptions.. personally i trust myself and my friends way more than i would ever trust a dealer! luckily i havent had any warranty related issues but if i did i really dont have a clue where i would take it, there is probablly 6 sanger dealers within four hours of me to choose from lol.. <BR> <BR>o by the way, that sanger wake pictured above is HUGE!<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by mendo247 on November 26, 2006)

wake_upppp 11-26-2006 8:35 PM

"o by the way, that sanger wake pictured above is HUGE!"...any pics of it at boarding speed?<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0>

r3612 11-26-2006 9:24 PM

I still would never buy sometyhing from someone that rubbed me the wrong way. Why would you want to give your business to a dealer who is a complete arrogant ass. Just doesn't make sense at all. Why would you support something/someone who you want nothing to do with after the deal is done. That makes no sense whatsoever except for the case of the "SUPER DEAL/ LAST YEAR'S BLOWOUT!" Even then I"d still have a hard time giving a guy who rubs me the wrong way business. <BR> <BR>Imagine this scenario Bought bought from dealership A. Boat now has problem in the middle of summer and needs to be fixed....Boat taken to dealership B. Boat will sit at dealership B til all of dealership B's boats from customers are taken care of....and then your boat from dealership A will be next in line. How is that gonna ever be a good thing. Never is or will be. Why would you want to give your hard earned dollars to a place that hasn't earned your business? <BR> <BR>It's not conceiding it's being realistic. Your boat will have to go to a dealer at some point no matter what. I"be be shocked to find a boat that has never been to a dealer after it left the lot......this includes other places such as outside mechanics or home mechanics due to the fact that most people don't do their own work to their boats so are going to need the dealer. Warranty issues are usually void unless taken to an authorized ealer in most cases. When a good dealer is on your side things move much quicker and get done. The Mfg's would much rather work closely and trust the dealerships that sell their products. Therfore usually give the the benefit of the doubt when it comes to small that can go either way. With the extra push it will usually end up in your favor and save you a ton of $$ on Excedrine. Buying a boat is just not about the boat itself.. There a other things to consider in the grand scheme of things <BR> <BR>And the quote...."they will all kiss your ass til the deal is done" To me that says that isn't a dealership I want.....Though all too true. TI would venture to say that you wouldn't hear that from someone who bought their boat from a "GOOD' dealer <BR> <BR>(Message edited by r3612 on November 26, 2006)

jovedawake 11-27-2006 12:04 AM

Wow, lots of good points here...interesting.

c4avalanchen 11-27-2006 1:30 AM

Mike, the odds of you absolutely hating either of these boats after purchase is unlikely. So I think going with the better dealership is going to be best. Do a search on these 2 boats and i'll bet there are very few negative comments about the Avy C4 or the V230. A lot of the "washed out wake" comments seem to be from the guys with the smaller boats in Centurion's lineup and also the non C4 Avy. I have no such issues.

r3612 11-27-2006 9:47 AM

Rodney hoit it on the head. <BR> <BR>The curl problem was a huge issue on the old Hrrican/Lightning. REason it was so talked about was because that was Centurions most popular boat 3-5 yrs ago. That particular boat was on an older hull that had been around for a while. A straight ski hull. Was and still is a great great boat. Problem with that boat was that it just didn't respond well to additional weight so it pretty much stayed at a beginner/intermediate wake. That boat was the most popular and gave you the most bang for you dollar in the Centurion line up So everyone was talking about it. <BR> <BR>With the advent of the Lightning C4 the redesign of the hull. The problem has pretty much disappeared for the most part, but the reputation still floats around and that is something that will be hard to kick. The wake specific hulls on all their boats Storm C4 boats are very up to the challange and the uissue has pretty much gone away. The boats that experience it these days are those without the hydraulic trim tab or the switchbade. The manual wakeplate is just hard to keep adjusting so you sacrifice some performance by not opting for the hydraulic or the switchblade option.

wake_upppp 11-27-2006 7:30 PM

KJ, no one has to buy a boat from someone they don't like. They're are plenty of dealers. If you've found a dealer that will pamper you long after the sale, you should go buy some lottery tickets because you got lucky. My boat did have a Merc warranty issue in the middle of summer, an exhaust manifold gasket, it went to an independant Merc dealer, not the one I bought the boat from, and they put it ahead of the other bigger jobs and had it back to me in half a day! What happens when your super duper dealership changes hands a year after you buy? When you go to buy a new car or truck, do you settle on a dealer first? No, because dealers are just that, dealers. They'll tell you everything you want to hear. Instead, you do your research. Then you drive, touch, look, feel, etc. and you buy the PRODUCT you're happy with. Why would a boat be any different?

jovedawake 11-27-2006 9:16 PM

Mike, <BR> <BR>Sparky Jay does have some good points...still go with the gut feeling. <BR> <BR>BUT <BR> <BR>A dealer is a dealer. They are like the weather. One day great, one day bad.

jovedawake 11-27-2006 9:20 PM

HURRY UP AND DEMO!!! <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I can't wait to hear about your experience with the boats. Coz I know which one you fill fall in love with <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>...then there is the dealer<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>...weather. <BR> <BR>Added this in during edit: Did you ever see if you could talk with past/current customers??? <BR> <BR>(Message edited by jovedawake on November 27, 2006)

angrygolucky 11-27-2006 9:48 PM

I'll demo next week. We'll see how it all goes!

r3612 11-27-2006 11:28 PM

Unfortunately some of us are not blessed like those in Cali having delarships every 100mi. <BR> <BR>There is pretty much one dealer per mfg. Selling guidelines are strict and fully enforced between same mfg dealers in the cases where dealerships are near. Dealers are actually fined for selling out of there areas . We'll take supra Moomba for example. I have to buy my boat from dealership in my area.... that particular dealer will never see my business as it has seen myslef walk out twice with money in hand as well a two of my buddies. That's the way it goes here in Chi Town. <BR> <BR>Guess I should have been more clear in my statements. I can see your point as well, but that's just it....you're still going to be able to take your boat to a MFg dealer of some sort. Maybe not the one you bought it from, but it is still a Sanger dealer nonetheless. And in that position I would consider doing that, but here in Chi Town my Centurion would need to go to an MC/Supra/ or Malibu dealer or backyard mechanic in the case our dealership blows (which it does). And I can assure you it will sit there at those other mfg dealers til they are good and ready. But having a friend there helps<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>There is no way you can compare a car dealership to boats IMO. There is a car dealer every 20mi. Regardless of dealership its still a GM dealership or Ford dealership. You are not going to be taking your Ford to get fixed at the Nissan dealer I would hope. So I guess our opinions are based on different situations being located in 2 different areas. But I wouldn't think you'd want to be taking your Sanger to a Nauty dealer or any other dealer and think that your boat will be handled above theirs. <BR> <BR> <BR><b>on a side note sparky check your PM f or me if you could...thanks</b> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by r3612 on November 27, 2006)

aboatguy 11-28-2006 11:57 AM

These are all very interesting and somewhat disturbing. Remember there are always two sides to every story. I am confused about how comments are taken as fact, and furthered by someone else who actually knows nothing about it in the first person. Dealers do not intend to offend people by not being able to attend to their requests as the customer would like. Let's talk about service and warranty of any boat. The consumer uses it for about 1/2 the year and puts it away for the winter. When the crush comes during the peak season, parts get delayed, service tech's may start a job and find bigger problems that push back other jobs in line, and finally the consumers who call in adding more and more things to be done further adding to the dilema. <BR>Tough huh! Then to say, well just add more mechanics! Easier said than done... what about those six months that slow when people put the boats away? I know, I know, "they make plenty of money, look at how expensive the boats are" Look around, see how many dealerships went under during the first six months this year due to a strained economy and high fuel costs that hindered boat sales a little! So when a consumer is asking to match a dealers blowout, going out of business deal and is turned away by the mathmatics of it all, well it is a bummer for the dealer. When telling a consumer that The dealership can only support servicing what they sell due to capacity constraints? Also a bummer, and not intended to offend.


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