WakeWorld

WakeWorld (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/index.php)
-   Archive through November 14, 2005 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=268197)
-   -   2006 boat prices (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262774)

billybobfl2001 10-28-2005 7:17 AM

Are the 2006 boat prices getting out of hand? I have been at the local boat shows and really like the new MC X-2 and the SAN 220. I also think that the new Tige VE and Supra 22SSV are improvements over previous boats. I just can't get past the fact that dealers are wanting $58,000 plus for these new models. The number I hear for the new SAN 220 is closer to $70,000. I understand the luxury market and know that even some of our cars are this much but this seems to be getting crazy to me. <BR> <BR>Has technology improved that much from a boat that could have been bought for around $40,000 a couple of years ago? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have all the latest gadgets and extras, but that is a 45% increase in price over the last 3 years. I guess that is the reason MC and BU are also trying to compete at the "entry" level price now too. <BR> <BR>Even used boat prices seem inflationary given the costs of new boats. Is a 1-2 year old boat now worth more than what was originally paid for it? I see a number of 1-2 year old boats listed in the high 40s to low 50s. <BR> <BR>I guess ultimately, prices will be whatever the market is willing to pay. <BR> <BR>Any comments? <BR> <BR>

whitlock87 10-28-2005 7:33 AM

I think they get a little greedy.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0> <BR>I got a new Tige Switch V in 2004. I paid $33,600 for the boat. I t came with a tower, trailer, bimini, 340hp engine, and a towing cover. <BR> <BR>Tige had a 20V that ran just over 40. This boat had a nicer interior, the transom was slanted, and it sat 10 instead of 9. (Extra seat next to driver, but to get to the bow you had to walk over this. The Switch had a walk way) <BR>For 2006 Tige dropped the Switch line, and only makes the 20V / 20i. <BR>The thing that is funny about this is the new 20v is the old Switch with the better interior. <BR>The new price runs in the high 40ís <BR>(Just look at the back of the Switch, the opening to the bow, and the way the back deck sits on the boat it is the same as my 2004) <BR> <BR>I am sure glad I got it when I did. <BR>David <BR>

smylie 10-28-2005 8:36 AM

i totallly agree with you guys. I think that the boat manuf. are going to price themselves out of the market. I understand that boats are not cheep, but 70,000 for boat is kinda rediculous. NO, it IS rediculous! You can buy a house with that kind of money. When we bought our 2000 moomba mobius in 2001 Brand New for 23000 it was totally affordable. Now the mobius is like 33000. 10,000 in 6 years is crazy. And now X-Stars going for upwards of 80,000 fully loaded. I cant see where they can get charging that much more. Yes the interior is a little nicer and the fit and finish is too. But 50,000 more, i dont think so. Sorry bout the rant. <BR>danny

bazel 10-28-2005 8:49 AM

They are selling, that is why they can demand these numbers. I was speaking with a Supra/Moomba and Nautique dealer the other day and he was saying they aleady have a bunch on order and new boat sales are doing very well. I can't remeber the exact number of orders. <BR> <BR>It is simple less orders and more build slots will bring down the price.

jeff359 10-28-2005 9:03 AM

Like will said, if we pay it they will build it. Hey Danny, where you buying a house for $70K? I need to move and cash in on a deal like that. $70K would cover two years of my morgage.

uga33 10-28-2005 9:20 AM

IMO, Mastercraft and CC have to be accountable for these ridiculous prices. As MC and CC price their boats out of the average household. It only allows more room for the other manufactures to raise their prices. <BR> <BR>DICLAMIER::::: I'm not bashing MC and CC. I love their boats!!!!!!!!!!!

billybobfl2001 10-28-2005 9:20 AM

My local dealers also tell me that build slots are filling fast. I know that they are selling their boats at full retail prices. It just seems to me to be too much too fast. <BR> <BR>I mean I can afford to spend $70,000 on a boat if I wanted to (other than my wife saying "your spending $70,000 on WHAT") I just can't seem to make sense in it. <BR> <BR>Having said that, is $40,000 for a slightly used 2-3 year old boat more appropriate? I don't know. <BR> <BR>I typically try to put my money to work for me and exept for my vehicles don't put large sums of money into highly depreciable assets. Nowadays maybe the right boat isn't a depreciable asset. <BR> <BR>I could sell my present boat, although 10 years old, and only loose about $8,000 in value. I chalk that up to the enjoyment I received over the last 10 years. Although I guess if you count maintenance and upgrades, you could probably add another $12,000 to that total. <BR> <BR>Thanks again for your comments. <BR> <BR>

xtreme_kc 10-28-2005 10:37 AM

As a boat dealer, I can tell you that there is a boat for every buyer, at every price range. A boat can be as cheap as that make/model can be sold....included options drive the price rapidly up. A Moomba Outback V can be bought as cheap as $30K, but when you add tower, stereo, ballast, engine ups etc., the price climbs FAST! Engine advancements account for a good percentage of the cost increases, but are typically money well spent. <BR>Dealers stock what buyers buy (most of the time). So when you get prices of 70-80K, that is typically going to be a decked out-top of the line boat, <i>. The same boat can be bought more modestly, as fits your personal needs.</i> <BR>Certainly every market area has it's own margin, but keep in mind, if you live in an area where you make a good wage, housing is higher than average, and fuel is expensive....your local dealer has to support and pay a staff that has those same fiscal needs. Example: In my area, a nice 3/2 home can be had for around $200K, with escrow, a mortgage will run around $1,400 a month. A decent dealership would run around $16K a month...just for the building! Think of what a house costs in California or the east coast! <BR>Add the additional expenses of raw material that the manufacturers pay to get the product built and factor in the significantly higher transportation costs to move raw and finished products around the country. It all adds up to wholesale inflation....which always equals lower profits on fewer units. <BR>The best advice I can give is to pick a boat based on ride/wake, overall construction, visual appeal,and value (creature features always help, they never hurt) and when you find that boat-assess a number between 1-10 to it. <BR>Now guage the dealer that you are working with, <BR>and score him by feel, professionalism, and reputation. Score that dealer the same scale, and multiply his score by 2. (that tells you how important this often overlooked factor really is) <BR>Don't get caught up in what pros, magazines or posts tell you to buy, buy what feels right. Any pro rider will jump to a better deal, if it pays enough.

whitlock87 10-28-2005 12:54 PM

Bob sort of hit it on the head. <BR>I do live in southern CA, and in 2004 when I jot my boat; a house would go for around 400k. That same house today would about 550k <BR>I think my dealer has around 9 employees. This can high fast. <BR>

jpk 10-28-2005 2:16 PM

Boat prices are going up, but it seems there are also more value models becoming available. Those same manufacturers are offering their older hull designs as entry level models now. MC did introduce the X-80, but then they also did just introduce the X-1.

attila916 10-28-2005 3:10 PM

I think the real-estate boom has placed a lot of buying power into consumersí hands via home equity and people are going ape sh*% with their money buying boats they have no business owning. When hitting the delta and seeing the beautiful pieces of machinery out there it makes me want to splurge and flex my buying power by getting the latest and greatest boat but I restrain myself. (It takes a lot of restraint not to get rid of my Bayliner) As the real-estate market cools and fuel costs stay well above 2$ a gallon I think boat sales are going to suffer and there will be deals on gorgeous used boats. I am an econ student at USF and this is how I see it going down. <BR>BTW I hope I didnít offend anyone with this comment! <BR>

mcsammamish 10-28-2005 4:15 PM

I think the same margins are being held by both the dealers and the manufactures. They don't just randomly increase prices. They know what type of margin is going to pay the overhead and take the profit in the good years and then cross their fingers when years like '2000 and '2001 come around and the economy takes a dump. <BR> <BR>Petroleum products are used in building and delivering the boat and it's in materials that go into it. New ballast tanks (plastic/under the floor). Better software for the motors, ballast monitoring systems, fancier electronics for the gauges, all around newer, lighter, stronger materials. Nicer trailers with disk brakes, LED lights, alloy wheels, laser cut logos and then of course stereo systems. <BR> <BR>I think the car market has been going up pretty steady as well. HMMMMM??? <BR> <BR>All of this and yes, inboard boats sales are way up.

swab791 10-28-2005 4:37 PM

As my comments have shown I am PRO MASTERCRAFT...but for alot of good reasons. The comment about MC and CC forcing outragous boat prices is not a TRUE statement at all. MC has tried to hold the line as much as possible. 2003-2005 only saw about a 1.4-2.0% price increase as SIGMA SIX standards went into effect at the factory. MC and CC put ALOT more into the boats as most of you know and appreciate. The OLDER MC's are fetching better resale because of this. <BR> <BR> Guys it is pure economics 101... a MC costs more to make. As the ad states "Steak costs more than hamburger" with all that said every wakeboard and ski boat has its place in the industry. Not everyone can afford a 80K X-star...others can only afford a 40K boat or even used. Without new boat buyers there are NO used boats forsale. <BR> <BR> Boat pricing has increased this past year not because of GREEDY manufactuers but because they had to. Everything in that new boat is based on petroleum products, glass, resin, vinyl,plastics, shipping. The local dealer here was paying about $620 last year for a single boat shipment from the factory. Currently almost $800. <BR> <BR>Lance I appreciate your comments...what is "AVERAGE" to you. Are you faulting a guy for making $100K or more a year who can afford a $80K boat. The guy who is just starting out making $30 K a year, with due dilligence will make that 100K a year. MasterCraft keeps making them...people keep buying them so they must be doing something right on both sides of the table. The comment about people paying retail for a boat...well thats there own damn fault. Supply and demand maybe. That's just having to have it right now. Retail #s on a boat are unrealistic for any buyer. They are a starting point from the factories standpoint not the end users price. Don't fault someone for being sucessful for having something that you want. Get yourself up the scale and you can have anything. <BR> <BR>I am sure that I will once again get a ton of crap on this one...but it all makes sense and hopefully will make a few think first before commenting. These comments are not meant to offend anyone.

jpk 10-28-2005 5:16 PM

Yeah, listen to Matt Cour. He'll get you a deal on a Malibu, by the way. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>

bear 10-28-2005 6:04 PM

<font color="000000">TJK there not blaming anyone for buying the boat they want. All they are saying is that the prices for new boats have been going up. No one has said itís the guy who is making $100K or mores fault. They are just saying that $80K for a boat that last year was 70K is crazy! Don't get me wrong you have a point and I tend to agree, just playing d</font>}evils advocate here, but don't bash these people and say "hopefully will make a few think first before commenting." Just like you have an opinion and obviously share it, let them have one too! }

attila916 10-28-2005 7:16 PM

TJK, Please enlighten me on your "people paying retail for a boat... well thats there own damn fault" comment. <BR>If I want to buy a bone stock X-1 with a single axel trailer and no stereo, what should I pay? Do you think there is any way in he** that I will get it for a penny under retail? $39,995

bigshow 10-28-2005 8:49 PM

TJK, if I made $100K per year I might be willing to spend $30K on a boat, certainly not $80K. Otherwise I wouldnít have money for a tow vehicle, gas, wakeboard gear, to make house payments, put my kids through college, pay utilities, or eat. I think youíre talking about guys that make $250K per year. The high cost boats are for doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs. If you can afford that much for a boat thatís wonderful for you, the rest of us will have to live within our means. <BR> <BR>Iím sure that MC makes a very good boat, Iíve never been in one. I find it hard to believe that the production costs are so high. I think, and certainly donít know, that these are high costs are partly driven by marketing costs. MC does a lot to promote water sports and promote their products. Those costs have to be funded by something, the bill of sale. <BR> <BR>I think that wakeboarding is far more interesting and far more fun than any other water sport. There are a lot of boaters reconfiguring old inboards and I/Os for wakeboarding. Boaters that are really in to wakeboarding will eventually want to upgrade, if income increases they might upgrade nicely. Those with deep pockets will be fortunate enough to buy whatever the best might be. <BR> <BR>There can only be so much magic in the design and shape of a hull. Then you have wake enhancements, thereís no magic in ballast, and it looks like Malibu is no longer the only inverted hydrofoil out there. I think that many boat companies have figured out how to make a pretty good wakeboarding boat, and more will follow. Iíve seen new pontoon boats, jet boats, deck boats as well as standard I/Os all configured with wakeboarding towers. These boats may not be the best but it shows that there is a lot of interest in the sport. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by bigshow on October 28, 2005)

ghostrider_2 10-28-2005 10:41 PM

Its as simple as the supply and demand thing.... <BR>lets not beat his horse to bad! <BR> <BR>If I owned a company that sold product A.. and year after yeat it sold extremely well, my overhead is rising andI see the chance to make some real money...UP goes the prices....they are still selling like hot cakes then prices continue to rise just like the houseing market here is CA! <BR> <BR>I don't like it like anybody else but the only wya to get thier attention is for sales to drop for atleast 1-3 years, then they will get the message! <BR> <BR>Think about the car market, they are doing everything they can to move cars now! <BR> <BR>Easily put If you don't like then quit trading in your boat every year or two! If your not then just think it WILL cool off sooner or later just like the housing market is now... <BR> <BR>(Message edited by ghostrider_2 on October 28, 2005)

dahui 10-28-2005 11:06 PM

Kenny is right. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand supply and demand. If MC could not sell any X-Stars for 80K they wouldnt. If it was overpriced then people wouldnt buy it. Look at Ferraari and Lamborghini. 300K for a car? They are still in business because their is a demand for their product, just like a $80K X-Star. MC and CC are selling these damn things as fast as they can make them, as a result the price goes up.

jeff359 10-29-2005 9:39 AM

I have a combined household income over over $100K, and would never spend more than $50K on something I use 7 to 8 months out of the year. More power to those that do. Like I said in my earlier post, the builders sell every boat they pump out. Supply and demand, if someone will pay 80K, they sure the heck will sell it for 80K. <BR> <BR>15 years ago, who would have thought SUVs would cost 60k+? As long as real estate continues to rise, people will pull out money to pay for toys. When they can't pull out any money demand will level out, price will stabilize <BR>

wake4fun 10-29-2005 10:29 AM

15 years ago who thought gas would be 2.89 a gallon. It is all relative. Like Edward said, the 80k + boats are for the upper incomes. The rest of us hopefully will buy the best we can afford.

billymac 10-29-2005 10:57 AM

i know it's all realtive, but all i hear here is supply and demand, not a single person justifying the cost. lol. so they're not worth it then? <BR> <BR>;)

jeff359 10-29-2005 11:25 AM

IMO opinion and budget, no they aren't worth it. Most of the wakeboats out there will suit most of just fine. Most now have great wakes and great quality (compared to other boats). <BR> <BR>Someone who spends that kinda money might be able to justify it, I can't.

sjmedic 10-29-2005 11:35 AM

Bottom line: boats sell for what the market will bear. IF the boats are selling for 70-80 thousand, it is because the marlet allows them to be sold for that amount. As one of the dealers said, costs of manufacturing have gone up. BUT, if no-one buys the boats, watch how quickly manufacturers will find a way to bring down those costs by outsourcing and inferior material. There will be an equilibrium soon. I think 2006-2010 will see the highest jump, but profit will also increse in leaps and bounds. In essence, I will be holding on to my 2004 Malibu (and taking good care of it) for years to come. Who knows.....maybe I can sell it for what I bought it for in 10 years!

attila916 10-29-2005 3:57 PM

Howie, only if you gold plate everything...

paublo 10-29-2005 4:43 PM

If anyone really thinks that it is anything other than supply and demand you are kidding yourself. Get a good dose of reality. Sure crude oil has gone up, but you're dreaming if you think that is the major reason why boat prices are up. <BR> <BR>For example two years ago crude was around $30/barrel and is now around $60/barrel. In the same time, gas went from $1.50/gal to over $3.00 after Katrina hit. Now how much of what you pay for gas is based off of the price of crude? Figuring taxes, refining, distribution, retail profit, etc, I'm guessing no more thatn 1/2. The past week we saw oil companies post record profits in the tens of billions. It is supply and demand. <BR> <BR>There are also some other less obvious reasons for some boat prices to go up- like company debt (MC). But if there are enough buyers and plant capacities are full, what do you think is going to happen to the price of boats. They make it more palitable by adding a little more bling and extras, and we get in line and buy them. I'm not anti-boat companies, it is just the way it is. <BR> <BR>The really sad thing it has become a rich persons sport, out of reach for most.

bigshow 10-29-2005 5:37 PM

Paul, I disagree, this is not a rich persons sport, but itís not one for a pauper either. This summer I saw this one group at my favorite boarding spot. They had an old ugly faded yellow I/O, no tower, and I think no exhaust system, man that thing was loud. I talked to them once (about power turning), it looked like this was their first season and they were having a ball. Latter in the season I saw them again, they had spray painted a black skull and cross bones on the side of their boat, I wish I had my camera Ė who needs and X-star these guys were pirates. <BR> <BR>Itís a mistake, possibly very arrogant, to say that the only real wakeboard boasts run in the six figure range. I owned an outboard for one year, an I/O for 12 years and now have a V-drive. I boarded behind the I/O for maybe eight or more years. A had a lot of fun with my family and friends on the I/O, donít those years count towards wakeboarding experience? I bought my 1993 I/O for $13K and change, when I traded her in, I got over 40% of my investment back, not too bad. <BR> <BR>I bet there are some pretty decent wakeboarding I/Os. I thought about the Rinker RX boats, but the price on the Rinker line has increased so much that the jump to an inboard demo boat that I bought was in the same ball park, so I went for the inboard. <BR> <BR>There are a lot of great boats in the $50K range, thatís still above my comfort level. There are alternatives well below $50K too, just ask your local wakeboard pirate. <BR>

bazel 10-29-2005 7:27 PM

The price increase has nothing to do with skill of the boarders. There are many who buy the $ 70K MC or CC who can barley get up. All the manufacturer cares about is selling boats and makeing as much profit as they can. Quite frankly that is what they are there for. They are not in the business to give me a boat. <BR> <BR>Let's be honest, if you were manufacturering a product, pick anything, and you were able to make 100 of them a year but you had 120 orders at $ 10, would you not raise your price to $ 12 or $ 15 until the orders are closer to your production levels??

billymac 10-29-2005 11:52 PM

supply and demand, i get it <BR> <BR>but again, i ask the question <BR> <BR>are these 50k+ boats worth it? i want to know. because some day, if i can afford it, i'd like to probably buy one. you know, trade in my i/o, hopefully make 40% like Ed did (nice words btw). am i going to be horribly disappointed? please don't come back and give me the fit and finish crap either because that crap is obvious--again, i get it. what i want to know is, if i save up my hard earned cash and bring one of these things home, is it going to be a huge mistake? i keep looking at the classifieds looking for a seller's "true" reasons, but it's impossible. so tell me, are these 50K plus boats worth it or not? this last season my wife and i were walking down the dock right before we trailered home from labor day weekend and i told her i was glad we didn't spend 60k on a boat. she asked me why, and i pointed back to the water'd edge, 2-3 MC's, couple supra's, a tige or two, etc. all parked on the water. i said, honey, we were on the water all weekend right? yes. did you ever see any of those boats move? huh, no! exactly. i'm starting to think it's all show. and that's cool i guess. i know the wake is real. i get it. personally, i'll stick to my 7 year loan and feel good during christmas when i'm in the garage. ;) at least until i get a raise. :p

bigshow 10-30-2005 7:04 AM

Billy Mac, Try the find a third/be a third or another opportunity to ride behind an inboard. See if an inboard makes a difference for you. I've ridden for quite a while and though I still suck, this year I'd say that three things really improved my boarding experience: 1) an inboard with tower and ballast, 2) upgraded to a progressive rocker board, and 3) I invited Ron, another WW boarder to ride with us, he rode a lot better than anyone in my crew. Ronís technique was so easy and effortless that we all had to take a good look at our technique, it made a difference ridding with someone with much better skills. <BR> <BR>Probably the best way to determine if a boat is worth the $ is to drive one and ride behind one. All the on line discussion is helpful and all boats look great at the local boat show, but nothing can replace the hands on experience. <BR> <BR>As far as the parked boat thing goes, I used to get my I/O out once or twice per week. This was my first year with my V-drive. We started the boarding season in April in 40F water temperatures and ended in October. I generally got out three days per week and put about 180 hours on the engine, it has been an awesome year. <BR>

swab791 10-30-2005 5:09 PM

"TJK, Please enlighten me on your "people paying retail for a boat... well thats there own damn fault" comment. <BR>If I want to buy a bone stock X-1 with a single axel trailer and no stereo, what should I pay? Do you think there is any way in he** that I will get it for a penny under retail? $39,995" <BR> <BR>Attilla, <BR>$39995 is NOT retail on the X-1. $43-$45 is retail pricing on that boat. Ever notice on the net that MC dealers only advertize retail or no price at all? The X-1 nationally advertized pricepoint pricing is $39995. A loaded X-star retail is in the low 90's but sells in the low 80's (LOADED THAT IS NOT A BASE X-STAR w/ a RTP motor) The X-1 is a PRICEPOINT boat for MC Dealers. It is there to fill a VOID for more entry level pricing under $40K. You might find a dealer to come off the price $500. But I would not guess anymore than that. <BR> <BR>The MARGIN on a NEW X-1 with base pricing is not what a new X-2 or Prostar brings to keep a dealership going. <BR> <BR>Hope this helps...not trying to argue

talltigeguy 10-30-2005 6:19 PM

I agree with the supply and demand that folks have stated above. If I'm willing to pay for it, it is worth 50K. <BR> <BR>I think the future is going to be shaky for boats this expensive, though. You could borrow 40K for $400 per month a few years back, and now you can't. You also have had demand increase to the point that people could actually sell a used boat for as much or more than they bought it for. Increasing interest rates will hurt. We also have an economy that seems questionable with increasing government debt and trade deficits. Most boat owners do not have the cash for a boat. I might at age 50, but I'll be lucky if I even want to wakeboard then. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by talltigeguy on October 30, 2005)

cyclonecj 10-30-2005 6:36 PM

I bought a new boat in 2000, I don't think I'll ever do that again. It was top of the line at the time but I opted not to get a tower or the boarding package to lower the cost. Still, it was cheap cheap cheap compared to what boats go for these days. <BR> <BR>One thing is a fact, we all want a lot more stuff on boats now than we did five years ago, and five years before that if you had an AM/FM cassette you were blinging hard. I am still adding new stuff to my boat, that's half the fun. I wouldn't want to buy one that was already done. <BR> <BR>I don't fault MC or any other manufacturer for raising prices, they deserve to ask whatever the market will bear! <BR> <BR>Six Sigma is a bag of crap, btw.

attila916 10-30-2005 7:10 PM

TJK thanks for the comment on the X1... <BR>I will make a refundable deposit and take the boat out next spring before I begin hagling with the dealer... I don't mind paying 45-46 for the boat as long as I get to order it with my colors and a couple of extras like ballast, dual axle, engine upgrade, bullit dash, and fixed board racks but if they try to stick me at 45 with no upgrades, forget it!

billybobfl2001 10-31-2005 6:10 AM

Once again I guess it all comes down to personal preferences. Not to brag, but my household income is $350K+ but I still don't think I am willing to spend $70,000-80,000 on a new boat. I know many of you finance a boat for 10+ years to keep the payment amount more manageable, but I don't think I would ever finance a boat for longer than I would a vehicle. Once again, just personal preference. <BR> <BR>I know things have gone up in costs. Smylie, three years ago you could have bought a decent house where I live for $70,000, however, today that same house would costs $130,000. Things go up, I understand that. Have your wages increased by that same percentage in the last 3 years? <BR> <BR>Talltigeguy - If I were to buy a $70,000+ boat I hope that I can still board at age 50. Thats not too far away. <BR> <BR>Supply &amp; Demand, yea I understand that. I also think that most people tend to get over their head in debt. A real expensive "toy" can help you get there fast. Has anyone on this board spent more than half of their annual income for a "toy"? <BR>


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:01 PM.