Which Boat to Buy?
 

I've been lurking here for a bit and I know the quick answer is to demo, demo, demo. That said no demo will make up for the combined experience of the folks here, so I'd appreciate some feedback on which boat to buy.

My criteria:

• 21 to 22 feet max (not including swim step)
• good factory wakeboard wake, with pro level possibilities

• not hard to get wake cleaned up at various speeds / lengths
• prefer not too much sensitivity to weight placement
• most days out its just 3 of us - driver, observer, rider
• ok surf wake without sacs
• quality "content", ie. features, construction, etc.

I only buy a boat about every 10 years, so I'm ok with spending some coin. My son is 8 and loves wakeboarding. We live on the delta and ride 5-7 days a week when its warm. We have a closed bow Malibu Response now. Good for skiing, but he's outgrown the wake. Plus, I'd like to start boarding more... and surfing. Since we won't buy another boat for 10 years I want something the boy won't outgrow. He rides at 21mph and 65 feet now, but plans to be on magazine covers in a few years. ;-)

Current contenders in order are Malibu VLX, Nautique SA210, Mastercraft X-25, or Axis A20.

Thinking new, but not opposed to used. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I would add Tige Z1, RZ2, and 22Ve to your list. My favorite being the RZ2.

I'd put the MB 21 footers on the list. Their out of box wakes are very good.

Any of the brands mentioned would be fine choices. It took us 2 years to buy a new boat in the end it came down to the BU 23 and the 210 SANTE . Both have the met your requirements . We went with the 210 because of the PCM power plant and the dealer. The dealer is a big part of the purchase and after the sale they can make the boat owning experience a joy or a nightmare. So it boils down to buy the one YOU like from a close dealer with a good reputation nobody builds a bad boat. Good Luck.

Go test drive each. You should also consider an Axis A22 if it is not too big. The extra room over an A20 is nice to have. You can get a nicely loaded A22 or A20 for under 50k. If you don't have a local Axis dealer, let me know and I'll put you in touch with mine.

My 2011 A22 is going to be done in about 10 days. Then it will be off to have the Wetsounds stereo installed, and then to the Chattanooga boat show. I can't wait to finally get it when it's done.

If you have any questions about the A20 or A22, feel free to pm me.

I'm really struggling with the Axis vs. VLX comparison. Axis did a number of things I really like, but I'm worried about the places they cut cost given my 10 year horizon. Would love to see them offer an Axis with the fit and finish of the others.

I think when it comes to a factory ballast, few match the VLX. One being the Supra/Moomba line, two being the Axis and also MB & Epic.

With a 10 year horizon I too would be leery of the Axis. IMO, get the VLX, ride it and as your boy improves stack lead in it or add a piggy back system. Out of the box they throw a great wake, add another 1,500 pounds and it is definitely pro level.

Check out the Malibu system that stores profiles for riders. Hit a button and it will adjust ballast/Wedge/speed for each individual. (You can see what boat I want)

I agree with small light. I have an 09 Malibu LSV and couldnt be happier with it. If your looking for a boat 21-22 feet the VLX is your boat with 3 standard ballast tanks, power wedge, and the maliview.

deltaskier, I will say, after a year of having my Axis and 146 hours, I have been nothing but pleased. It has held up great, and I plan on having it for another 10-15+ years. The size of the boat is great, the build quality is very good. I watched ours get built and working with the Axis crew is always awesome. They kept me up to speed with everything and were quick to respond to any questions. I havent seen any issues with mine and it looks new. I really believe its all about how you care for your stuff. I have had 4 oil changes and the fluids have been gone over. Everything as expected is working fine and looks normal. I bought our A22 with the expectation it will last many years and have Malibu quality. With fiberglass everything, and a dependable engine, I dont think I have to worry.

if your looking for a 10 year boat - the VLX & the SAN210 would be the 2 i would be deciding between.

I give another vote to the Axis A22. Fit and finish is good. Sure some of the other boats on your list are a bit nicer but they also cost 30-50k more than a fully loaded A22. The wake is one of the best right out of the box. Get the plug and play and wedge and you have a pro level wake. Don't fill the ballast all the way up and you have a good beginner wake. The boat does it all and it is way less $ than the other boats on your list.

No personal experiences but from your criteria I would think the MB team widebody or F21 Tomcat would be something to look at for sure. They have a lot of ballast under the floor and are a little on the smaller side, at least on the outside dimensions. From reviews they seem to be huge inside.

I am not sure you need to be worried about quality of the Axis. I am pretty sure almost all of the things they cut corners on are purely superficial and have nothing to do with the core construction of the boat. For example I don't think you have to worry about the hull, vinyl, eletrical and drivetrain anymore then any other boat. If you got one with the wedge or power wedge and the plug and play ballast you have a very versatile wake boat. You could have a pro level wake at the flip of a few switches and lowering the wedge, you can empty some ballast and not use the wedge to make a very consistant and unintimdating wake for beginners. The more I read about these and hear people's experiences the more I like these.

The VLX and VTX are obviously very nice boats with a plusher and more complete feel then the Axis. The only thing trouble I see here is that you will want to plumb in sacs in the rear for surfing or throwing a truely top level wake. That also means you have to counterbalance that rear weight with sacks or lead in the bow.

The Nautique 210 seems to be a very versatile boat and doesn't need a ton of weight but to maximize the wakeboard wake and surf wake you will need to plumb in sacs in the rear and probably something in the front.

After reading a thread about the X25 it might have the best wakeboard wake with the least amount of ballast. The reviews have said it needs extra ballast decent surfing but what boat doesn't. I believe you can get plug and play on this boat as well. Although really nice I think there is just way too much going on with this boat. There is way too many things that can break not to mention the high initial price.

You have so many excellent options that you really need to go test drive a bunch of boats and see what you like and dislike about each one.

I find these comments interesting. I may have agreed with what is being said 5 years ago, but now, I could not disagree more.
My first VDrive was an '02 Xstar that I bought in '04. One of the reasons I went with that boat was because I planned on owning the Xstar for a long time. In '04, if you didn't buy a top of the line boat like an Xstar, SANTE 210 or VLX, you did run a higher chance of having mechanical issues and depriciation issues over time. The early model SANTE's, XStars and VLX's had all of the core options that you needed as a rider, and not a whole lot of extra bling. Those boats were simple, well thought out, and rider oriented. Replacement parts were available and fairly cheap and easy to replace.

Since the old Xstar, I have owned a 2007 VLX, a 2008 SANTE 230, a 2009 SANTE 230 and a 2010 SANTE 230. IMO, it has gotten to the point now where, if you buy new and plan on sitting on a boat for more than 3-5 years, you are taking more of a risk buying a "flagship" wakeboat like a VLX or 210 over an Axis. Here's why I think this is the case:

(1) The cost of a "flagship" wakeboat from the big 3 have skyrocketed. I just don't see how new boats can continue to creep up 6-10% every single year from now on. When cost levels out on new models, depriciation on a 3-5 year old "flagship" boat is going to be tremendous - not that it isn't already pretty bad. To buy a $75k SANTE 210 and then it be worth around $50k in three years is crazy. While an Axis is also going to depreciate over 3-5 years as well, the depreciation curve should be less due to the lack of competitors in the same price point niche. Even if an Axis depreciates at the same rate as a "flagship" boat, the actual amount of money that you are losing over time is less due to the intitial lower cost of your investment.

(2) The new "flagship" boats are incorporating a tremendous amount of technology and options, such as touch screens, which are nice, but you have to ask yourself, what happens in 3-5 years when your boat is no longer under warranty and you start to have problems. How much is it going to cost to replace that touch screen display when it's on your dime? Axis is incorporating established, battle tested, compartmentalized technology in their boats. If a speedo goes out in 5 years on an A22, guess what, you buy a new gauge and its fixed. There's much less of a chance that a single electrical issue is going to completely cripple your boat while you're waiting for a part to come in. If a toggle style ballast switch stops working in 5 years, you buy a $20 switch and replace it. That's it. I personally love the paddle wheel perfect pass system on the Axis boats. Do you think that the satelite based systems are more reliable and are easier to repair? Axis may not have the fanciest or most complex interior on the market. However, what do you think you're going to pay for a set of skins in 7 years for your SANTE 210 verses an A22?

There is no doubt that the "flagship" wakeboats being produced right now have more bling than an A22. There's no doubt that the "flagship" wakeboats use more expensive materials - such as billit aluminum everything - on certain parts of their boats. However, I think people have become so desensitized to what constitutes "fit and finish" in boats these days it's crazy. People have come to expect polished stainless steel / aluminum friggin cupholders, hinges, carpet snaps, wedges, hydrogates, exhaust tips, etc. Seriously? Do you really need polished components that are UNDER WATER and that people can't see unless the boat is on the trailer? I mean, c'mon. Do you really mean to tell me that those items of bling make a better boat? A more expensive, blinged out, perhaps aesthetically attractive (depending on the eye of the beholder) boat - Yes. I've seen what goes into building these A22's and A20's. I seriously do not think that an A22 is not going to hold up as well as a VLX or 210 over the course of 5-10 years.

That's just my .02 - for the sake of argument. Feel free to disagree.

My dad was in the same situation a few years ago when I out grew the wake on our 2000 Malibu Sunsetter. I let him know that I was serious about the sport and he helped me take my riding to the next level. With that being said we went out and tested all the big name boats. Tige, Mastercraft, Nautique , Malibu. After riding behind each we made the choice to go with a new 2006 Malibu VLX. With the VLX you won't need to worry about your son out growing the wake. For the longest I boarded with just the stock ballast and wedge. Now sometimes I will use two extra sacks in the rear trunk but they are not really needed. I got the chance to ride behind the A22 this summer and thought it was a great boat with a killer wake but if money is no object I would choose the Malibu. Best of luck to your son.

Didn't axis just significantly increase the price of the A22 so that it now competes price wise with boats like the VLX?

I hadn't heard this but if so that is retarded. I could see it being in a similar ballpark to a Vride 21 but not a VLX. The VLX's are around 70k aren't they?

My buddy got quoted 68k on an 2011 axis a22, so if this quote is correct then they ahve and are pricing themselves out of their market. They are a great wakeboarding boat, but the fit and finish of those boats doesn't comapre to the big three.

That is insane. Sounds like your buddy got quoted list price basically. Anything over 55k for an A22 is craziness. They were mid to high 40's loaded I believe 2 years ago. No reason at all for them to increase by 35% in 2 years.

My vote is for the X-25. I have never ridden behind one, or ever even seen one in person. But since a vote was casted for every other boat, I figured I would cast mine.

My family has owned MC's since 1992. My dad bought a brand new ProStar that year, and still has it. My dad's interest as subsided some since then so the boat does not get used as often, but that boat runs as strong today as it did almost 19 years ago. It is still in good shape too, no tower though, and I am not sure if the boat has even pulled a wakeboarder. Part of this may be my father's anal behavior it taking care of the boat, but when you are dropping this kind of coin on a recreational craft, you should be anal when it comes to upkeep and maintenance. We have had two other MC's (98 Sportstar and a 2006 X-1), and currently have a 2008 X-star. There have been a couple of issues. Bad fuel pumps in the X-1 and X-star along with a couple of other minor issues. But I have been pleased with the performance of all 3 boats.

I would not object to owning any other brand, and may in the future. I am not one to advocate that MC is any better than another brand, I am simply sharing my experience that spans almost 2 decades. (Prior to my dad getting the Prostar, he had a 1980 Ski Supreme). I think you will be happy with any of the choices you have listed.

Unless your "buddy" optioned out a Vandal edition A22 with a Z5, the Raptor 400, full wetsounds' system and a happy ending from the dealer's daughter, I don't see how the price could possibly have been anywhere that high.

That's over MSRP.

For comparison, my buddy was quoted less than 50k for a 2011 Axis A22 with a z5, no tower speakers, standard tandem trailer, standard motor, wedge, docking lights, plug n play, chillax seating, pop up cleats, no heater, no underwater lights, tatami mat, and a few other options.

If you want the most loaded out A22 ever, then I can see you paying in the mid to high 50's. If you want the most loaded out VLX or SANTE 210 ever, you're paying between 75-85k.

I've got a message into my dealer right now to find out details.

I am guessing it had the raptor 400 engine in it since we are in CO and the altitude kills hp you have to have the raptor 400 to use the plug and play/wedge. Still that price is insanely ridiculous because we paid WAY less than that for our 2010 A22 with the raptor and pretty much every option out there except vandall and Z5.

I know there was a plan to increase the price going into 2011 wtht the release of the a20, not sure how much, waiting to hear back on that. If they did increase that much it's foolish

List prices on boats mean as much as the first 3 quarters of a basketball game. Find the boat you want first, then if it is too much money try to find a dealer that has a left over from the year before. Anybody that pays list price on a boat is an idoit so dont make your decision on that.

Axis and Malibu did have a small % price increase for 2011 - as did all of the other manufacturers. I can assure you that the price of the A22 did not go up any more than average for 2011, and that the A22 is absolutely not competing with the VLX pricewise.

I'm pretty sure the A 22 went up more than the avg boat price increase. I know part of that is due to the release of the A 20, I may be wrong, but will soon find out .

Great feedback, thanks everyone.

Chattwake - I've been reading your posts on your decision not to continue with Nautique. I actually tried to make the case with the Nautique product manager down at the INT tournament that they were making a bad business decision in their ridiculous pricing. Boat prices have outpaced inflation by about 50% since 2000. The reason in my humble opinion that prices have increased was that most people buy boats based on payments, not on price as many are financed. Same thing happened with housing. But housing has corrected, with prices down about 50%, and contrary to popular belief not because of foreclosures... but because that is all people can afford given the financing available today. The product manager said I was wrong, and it was the "content" that had increased prices. That's bull. It's arrogant and idiotic to think there is a brand new Volkswagen Jetta ($20k) worth of upgrades in a Nautique 230 -- and that's about the amount I think they are overpriced.

Boat prices have yet to correct like housing has. And I'm not certain they will. Unlike houses where there are many sellers, there are only a handful of boat manufacturers, giving them a lot more control. Sure they lost control for a while in 2008, but by slowing production and clearing inventory we are back to a place where there isn't much available. Looking around for a new boat, I have to say that inventory, color choices, etc. at the dealers really sucks. Basically if you are picky at all you have to order.

Bottom line... all the boats are overpriced right now imho. Even Axis. The big manufacturers all sold out at the peak to investors who overpaid, and are now clinging to a belief the market will come back. Problem is, sales won't come back until we either see: 1) cheap credit again (don't hold your breath), or 2) prices return to inflation adjusted 2000 levels (top boats around $45-65, second tier $35-45). In the mean time sales will remain slow as they sell a few boats to the few of us who want we want, and are willing and able to over pay vs. sit on the sidelines.

Didn't I read that all 2011 Axis boats now require a cat'ed powerplant, which by itself drives the price up a couple of grand vs prior years?

What about A20 vs. A22?? I get that there is more space in the A22, but how is the wake of the A20? As good, better, worse or just different?

ALL wakeboat motors have to run cats now (except for the supercharged 500+ hp CTS-V motor) That attributed, in part, to the price increase across the board in 2011. This affected all wakeboat manufacturers.

The A20 wake is really nice. It's a little wider than the A22 wake, but has a very similar shape. Ride 5' in and you'll like it alot. Go demo one and see what you think. I had my best set last summer behind the first A20 ever produced on its maiden voyage.

So got the details and my friend bent the truth a little when he told me about it. Should have checked my facts, but I don't need a new boat right now, so I'm not keeping up on the prices. Long and short of the story is that it was a Vandal edition and it was 66k, he also showed him another for around 55k.

Tige RZR :) or look at the Tige R20, same 20 ft hull as the RZR just much more basic interior.

X-25 as the Nautique is the only thing that compares to it in build quality, but none compare in storage, seating capacity and smooth ride in rough water.

Take a run up to your MB dealer after you've seen the rest of the competition.

Any body know what the "Vandal" edition offers besides graphics to get it to 66k? Their website seems to be down.

Delta, you know you can surf behind that malibu response?
and your going to have to add weight to the vlx, unless you have a large crew

joeshmoe - Yep, surfed behind the Response this last summer for the first time. I didn't think it would work, but I was visiting Orlando and one of the guys at Performance said I should try it. Not a very big sweet spot, but yes, it worked. Also not a fan of dealing with sacs - would prefer hard tanks or at least plug and play.
I actually like the Response a lot. It has been a good boat, and with some weight has been ok for wakeboarding to date. But it is 10 years old. Time for something new. And I prefer skiing behind my buddies Nautique which I can paddle over and borrow anytime - so no real need for a ski boat myself anymore.

any particular reason why you dont like sacks?
Look at these http://www.mbsports.net/model_view.asp?model=b5223wbx
hard tanks and a sweet gravity fill setup! No pumps or plumbing, and no sacks, but all the ballast you could want!

personally, I still like the looks of the new Tiges but I dont think they do hard tank ballast yet though.

I'd go for the VLX, but I'm biased towards Malibu... I found a 2010 A22 Vandall Edition at my local dealer in Salinas (ask for Bryan)... $49k MSRP, but you could knock a few grand off that easily:

http://www.salinasvalleymarine.com/n...23&pov=1584016

The Pleasanton Boat Show is going on now, so I'd probably start there.

Joey - my issue with sacs is primarily time and lack of hands. Easier to just flick a switch and watch a gauge. :-)

Jeff - been to the show already. No Nautiques or Mastercraft. Pretty quiet the afternoon we went. Thanks for the tip on the A22, I'll check it out.

If the boats are essentially equal (I'm not saying they are -- just stating a hypothetical) then go and shop dealers. If the Malibu dealer is close by and a good fit don't do yourself a disservice by buying a Nautique from a dealer 100 miles away.

I have been behind a VLX and an X25 but not the other ones on your list. New X25 is in production now and will be delivered sometime before the spring.

That is a great deal on that vandal edition.

I think a few different boats have the ability plumb in the sacs pretty easy. I would think any decent dealer can tap into the overflow for the stock ballast tanks and run an extra 350-700 in each rear compartment. Now you may not be able to see a gauge to tell how full they are but at least you don't have to use a seperate pump. Heck, you don't really need any extra pumps or switches installed. It is all fittings, bags and hose. The plug and play on Axis is setup so you can add like 1500# or so of ballast bags that are all tied in and work at the flip of a switch.

I really like the purevert on the MB but if you do want to plumb in ballast sacks for the rear compartments you are going to need to add switches and pumps as well as bags, hose and fittings.

Where do you take your current boat for maintenance? I'd ask your local mechanic about servicing and known issues with any of these boats.

You could also try Central Valley Marine if you wanted to compare the VLX, SAN, and Sanger at once place:
http://www.cvmarine.com/Page.aspx/pa...New-Boats.aspx

For MC, try Nor Cal Mastercraft in Pleasanton :
http://www.yellowpages.com/pleasanto...ap?lid=5717665

Have you been to Tracy boats yet? Larson Marine? Sporting Edge Marine?

As others have mentioned, find the boat you like and an even better dealer.

I would be happy to set you up for a demo on a MB product. If you are in Norcal, I'll take you out myself. When all the other boat companies are raising their prices, MB has been lowering their prices...

Also, I still have my Team 21' Tomcat for sale with low hours and all the options.

Email directly if I can help you.

I agree with Jason on the MB. I have had my F23 Tomcat for 2 yrs now and have been nothing but satifsfied. You cant beat the warranty or the fit and finish of a MB, I have almost 300 hrs on it and the vinyl still looks like new . The stock ballast is awesome and u can adjust the ride of the boat on the fly without having to bother your passengers. After owning my MB I will never go back to a boat that has pumps for a ballast system I am full and ready to ride in 60 seconds. There are too many good things I have to say about these boats to list, if you are looking for a long lasting quality built boat I would recomend an MB. Feel free to email me if you have any other questions. Good luck !