Amazing. God truly changes people's lives and here are some accounts from my church. Say what you will about who you think God is, but the way he changes hearts is unquestionable. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XHYPbAZCjU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XHYPbAZCjU</a> <BR><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBhSpO0U3XI&amp;feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBhSpO0U3XI&amp;feature=related</a> <BR><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDpLuIRBuZo&amp;feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDpLuIRBuZo&amp;feature=related</a> <BR><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iOWzMXKFhI&amp;feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iOWzMXKFhI&amp;feature=related</a>

If beliveing in a higher power can make you a better person I'm all for it, just dont' let the higher power mask your real issues.

And what real issues are you referencing? Who is masking them? <BR> <BR>I'm also a little surprised that you support life change by people resulting from delusional belief in a fiction character? Why would you care that some Dude looked at porn and now he doesn't? I wouldn't support this kind of transformation but rather try to get these people locked up in the looney bin!

It's great some people found some crutch to help them with their lives. It says absolutely nothing about some fictional god and everything about what goes on in people's heads and what they think helps them.

What do you think would make somebody want to stop looking at porn, being less prideful, loving people that mistreat them, etc? I don't know many people that on their own accord make these changes in their lives. Most people don't consider these issues than need to be overcome. You can't explain the change that has taken place outside of something that is of a higher power.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>What do you think would make somebody want to stop looking at porn, being less prideful, loving people that mistreat them, etc? I don't know many people that on their own accord make these changes in their lives<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>How about determination and strong will? What I don't get about people is they never give THEMSELVES credit. Who said that it has to be from a higher power? <BR> <BR>As an example. If I get a huge promotion at work is it because god blessed me or the fact that I spend countless hours at work, producing for the company and striving to be better at my profession night and day? <BR> <BR>I know of someone very close to me who is a prime example of this, her mom and family were heavy drug users ( she didnt know her dad), grew up really poor and many more stories that would shock any of us. However she believed she created her own destiny not someone from a higher power. She turned the cycle around and didn't take drugs, graduated from college, happily married and turned out to be a great mother, has a successful career and lives comfortably. She's not one bit religious, she made the decision to stop the cycle and defy the odds. <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by pierce_bronkite on January 14, 2010)

<b>How about determination and strong will? What I don't get about people is they never give THEMSELVES credit. Who said that it has to be from a higher power?</b> <BR> <BR>I'm not discrediting determination or strong will. I will say though that a lot of these people aren't giving themselves credit because they KNOW that it is because of God that their lives have changed. You know how they know?? Because for years they tried to do it on their own and it was only when they came to know Jesus that things finally changed. That is the great testimony about what He does in people's lives. He does things that people aren't capable of on their own. That is why they give Him the credit. <BR> <BR><b>As an example. If I get a huge promotion at work is it because god blessed me or the fact that I spend countless hours at work, producing for the company and striving to be better at my profession night and day?</b> <BR> <BR>I think the answer is both. Obviously God doesn't pass a math exam for you if you never opened the book or went to class. Sure, hard work is part of the equation, but your prospective changes when you see him bring you blessing that was a bit outside of just your doing a good job or working hard. <BR> <BR>To succeed in a career I think takes hard work. I do think that God brings along opportunities though that are not just as a result of hard work. <BR> <BR>And to your last story...that is truly awesome! Seeing people come out of addictions and the like are wonderfully pleasing stories. I don't think those testimonies say that they would have never overcome some of their obstacles without God (although some I think do feel that way) but rather they give him glory when they realize how much easier those obstacles were overcome with his help. <BR> <BR> <BR>P.S. We need to ride together sometime. Do you ride throughout the winter? I might try to get out Monday as it's suppose to be decent weather. I'll have to look for you on DWB, and a lot of us are also now on <a href="http://www.wakeboardchurch.com" target="_blank">www.wakeboardchurch.com</a>. Come check it out.

Ya that still gets back to my point though. If you cant believe your are capable of doing it then you wont. You have to have the mindset and mentality to achieve your goal. <BR> <BR>I used to ride often during the winter but as I have gotten older (ie wiser <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>) I don't ride as much. I post on DWB as Pierce and ride with a lot of the regulars on that site. I know a bunch of people who attend Wakeboard church as well. I dont think it would be a good idea to show up to Wakeboard church with beer and Lil Wayne on the speakers. LOL. <BR> <BR>Im surprised I haven't run in to you at the lake or events I usually ride Lewy though.

Yeah, I used to ride with the Lewy folks back in the early 00's but haven't been that way in a long time. Who do you normally ride with? We keep our boat out at Lavon so I normally ride there. <BR> <BR>Hey, no judging here. If your willing to come hang with us you can bring your Lil' Wayne and beverage of your choice. You could always hang and then bail if you aren't feeling the devo portion of WBC. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>I've probably ridden with most of the people you do but marriage and having a baby have minimized my ability to go ride with new crews all the time like I used to!

<b>I'm not discrediting determination or strong will. I will say though that a lot of these people aren't giving themselves credit because they KNOW that it is because of God that their lives have changed.</b> <BR> <BR>I am in no way discrediting anything that these folks managed to accomplish, kudos to them and anyone who makes a positive change in their life. <BR> <BR>What is clear to me is that their belief in God (right, or wrong, true or not) allowed them to take the burden of the change off of their shoulders, which helps them to make the change. Weather or not that burden was actually lifted by a higher power or was lifted simply because they believed that a higher power was lifting it is irregardless. The end game is that their belief in the religion of choice helped them meet a goal that was important to them.

God can be a very powerful supporter/advisor if you believe him to be real. A very powerful placebo from the point of view of the non-believer. <BR> <BR>But, his message matters. <BR> <BR>Another video of the power of god... <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv4s3fn8jDc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv4s3fn8jDc</a> <BR> <BR>What other power can get dudes to fly planes into buildings filled with people?

Jesus, that jumper footage gets me everytime.

Thanks for the highjack GD. I think you know the God I am talking about. Way to bring something constructive to the table like a 9/11 video that had nothing to do with anything. It's truly amazing how much joy you get from crushing a positive story with a post like that. I guess I should expect it though.

I thought it was on topic relative to the debate about the power of god. Point being -- the power can work for good and evil. And, neither proves god's existence in anyway.

Nope. Wasn't debating the power of God. Just sharing true stories about life change that people have attributed to Jesus Christ. I'm guessing you didn't watch the videos. <BR> <BR>Their stories are about lives changed from the truths in the bible. It didn't have anything to do with religiosity or acts of Islam. You motivations are obvious and a little childish if I'm honest.

It seemed to me that the thread headed in that direction even if it was not your intent. <BR> <BR>You may also notice that I focus on the subject of these threads and tend to never make pointed personal attacks at people making posts.

My ex and I were divorced back in 2002. She is fanatically religious. But the circumstances fell in my favor to the point that if I was the religious one they would have been deemed miracles.