Just got this e-mail from Prisilla. Gonna make it interesting next year. Any thoughts???? <BR> <BR> <BR>*** Beginning in 2009 there will be some changes to the Junior Men division for the Wake Games, WWA Nationals &amp; WWA Worlds. <BR> <BR>- The ages for the division have changed they will now be 14-18 as of January 1st <BR> <BR>- There will be 2 Junior Men divisions at Wake Games, WWA Nationals and WWA Worlds <BR> <BR> <BR>Here are the descriptions for the divisions: <BR> <BR>Junior Men ages 14-18 – WILL NOT USE APPARATUS <BR> <BR>Judging Format will be the WWA 3 judge standard system <BR>Wake Games: Any rider that finished in the top 20 on the 2008 Junior Men PWT rankings cannot compete in the Junior Men division. They have to compete in Junior Pro Men. <BR>Nationals: Any rider that finished in the top 20 on the 2008 Junior Men PWT rankings or in the top 20 at Wake Games in Junior Pro Men cannot compete in the Junior Men division. They must compete in Junior Pro Men Division. <BR>Worlds: Any rider that finished in the top 20 on the 2008 Junior Men PWT rankings or in the top 20 at Wake Games or Nationals in Junior Pro Men division cannot compete in the Junior Men division. They must compete in Junior Pro Men. <BR> <BR> <BR>Junior Pro Men ages 14-18 – use apparatus <BR> <BR>Judging Format will use the 5 judge DRIVE format

I think it is great. It is just another step that the JR riders can take as they are advancing through the ranks. I think it is also great because now you can get more Jr Mens riders at the events. What I see is Jr Men will now be a Mobe Fest and Jr Pro will be require a more all around run just like Pro Mens.

I think it will allow for more riders at young ages, and allow for progression. The top 10 or so Juniors this year are pretty much Pro's.

Seems like a good way to get more people involved. Also like mathcing the age with the pro tour Jr. Men.

I think it's bunk! Just another ploy to make more money IMO.

Damn them for wanting to make more money. HH99, I guess you dont ever need to grow your business and make more money? That must be nice.

I think its a great idea! If I was good enough to be in competitions I sure as hell wouldn't be wanting to compete with the likes of the Pros... If this is used a lot more teens will be more interested in competitions because they are riding within their age group. Doing any form of competition against someone much older than you (not falling apart old of course) can be quite intimidating... I really love the idea!

Still bunk! Jr. Pro Men?, how about Jr. Pro Women. How about Jr. Jr. Pro Boys, Let's have three judging formats, not two. C'mon. Most of those kids that will be in Jr. Men can hit the rails. If they want to make more money, have more comps in places that will actually draw more spectators. Do some PR work, grow the sport, not put limitations on it.

Who stole the jelly out of your doughnut?

I also think it is good for the industry. It will allow those who do not have access to rails to be competitive and ease their way up to the next level. So what if it is a mobe fest, bring it on. The tricks are just going to have to be solid. It also give the 14 and 15 year olds a taste of it without jumping in the deep end and competing against the guys who have been in Jr Men 3 years. Hey, and if brings in more money so what, the industry needs it right now.

HH99 you've been bashing the tour for years, get over it. This will have less of an impact then you might think. The top 20 riders from the 3 events last year will ride Jr. pro, that said, Wake games only had 19 riders total, so they all ride Jr. pro. The new Jr. men's division (no rails) will consist of the young guys coming out of Boys and your local outlaw riders who want to try the next level without getting killed by the Jr. pro's or getting worked on the "box", it's a good thing. Nationals &amp; Worlds is similar, 30 and 28 riders competed, so most of them will ride in the Jr. pro division anyway. Also if anyone wants to move up and ride with the big boys they can sign up for the upper division if they want. It's kind of like men's 1 in the pro division. The tour is doing a good job, thinking outside the box and creating more opportunity for riders to experience the big stage.

Are there really 14 &amp; 15 year old boys that cannot hit rails??

jr men vs. junior pro= same thing just separated for those who cant hit rails all the time. i think its good for them. either way your not getting paid or even big sponsorships until you ride the actual pro division with the big guys. thats the only difference. and for kids that age that just want to have fun with it its a good thing for them

Jason the top Jr. mens riders are getting paid and have big sponsors, Jimmy LaRiche, Harley Clifford (LF Pro model next year) are doing pretty good.

This is very interesting. Synchronizing the age range with the PWT is a very good thing IMO. It makes it more standard. For a Jr. men's rider who is up and coming, it gives an interesting choice. Play with the big boys or not.... It's the little fish in a big pond or bigger fish in a smaller pond dilemma. Hmmm....

i like contests and enjoy watching them. I have awesome time everytime. <BR> <BR>I'm not going to say it doesnt make sense but i will say 2 things first if you want to travel a few thousand miles to a event and spend that kind of money you should be prepared to compete against the other guys. This includes hitting rails. why cant someone find rails to hit seriously??? If you wakeboard you have access to rails. If they choose not to hit rails thats cool too it may competition makes you better and its not about winning to say you won unless you are truly best of breed. riding in a division that you are a bit overmatched for will make you better, give you rolemodels and an idea of what you have to do to win. Its kinda like the carmakers crying because they have to compete against the foriegn makers. getting a taste of whats out there means getting smoked by kids that are better than you. Do you see soven saying well dude you should win your liek 25 and I'm 18? <BR>This does breed the parents you are living thru thier kids. I played sports my whole life competivly and saw way to many parents there for the wrong reason and think the world revolved around thier kids winning or playing all the time. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by nsolis220 on December 04, 2008) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by nsolis220 on December 04, 2008)

I can understand them separating junior men and junior pro men but the rail thing?? Are there really boys that age that cannot hit rails?? Most girls that age are hitting the rails.They should rethink that.

I think there are numerous boys (and girls) around the country that have very little opportunity to hit rails. There are very few places away from Orlando that have quality rails for younger kids to practice on. Phil hit OWC every time we made it to Florida, went to the projects for a day, then spent 2 days at Gravity Research before he attempted the transfer box for the first time on tour when he was 15. There was a huge gap in experience between him and the boys who live in Orlando or have the opportunity to stay in Orlando for months at a time.

i think by doing this you will be slowing the progression of some of the younger guys by giving them the option to hit rails or not. your giving them an excuse for not being able to hang with some of the big names in the now "pro jr men". when they shouldnt be making excuses. they should be trying to get better.

"If you wakeboard you have access to rails. <BR> <BR> i don't know what world you live in but it's not like there's rails around on every lake around the country. And winching a ditch is nothing like hitting it behind a boat. I'm sure most haven't hit a rail other than the rare occasion they got to go to the cable park (FLA, KC, TX), or they built one that probably lasted a week or two at the most before it was torn down or they were kicked out. Yet they ride well behind a boat and should be considered a top rider. Rails have always seemed like something that keeps the advantage and resources within the current elite, creating a ceiling effect.

Well, maybe they should be encouraged to hit them in comps and maybe it should not count hugely to the overall score. <BR> <BR>If you do not have access to rails, and you are not allowed to hit them on tour, when and where are you going to learn?? <BR>I just think those kids are all so talented, they will pick it up super fast. <BR>I remember when I used to despair of Nicola ever being able to hit rails. And now............. <BR>And most, if not all 14-15 year old boys would smoke her on a wakeboard. <BR>They should hit the rails on the tour. <BR> <BR>Both Nicola and Raimi Meritt learned to hit the transfer box on the tour.In fact all the woman probably did? And if they can do it..............

Another Thought: <BR>Since it's now a 5 year bracket. What about Jr. Men for 3 years 14-16 then Jr. Pro-Men 2 years 17-18 and keep the rails and the judging the same.

Yeah and the really talented, like Harley, can move up anytime they feel ready. But they ride rails in both divisions. If they do not have access elsewhere and they are not allowed to hit them on tour they are never going to learn.

Just because the girls had to learn on tour doesn't mean that is the way it should be, and that if they don't do it there they will never learn. They will learn when it is the best time to do so, or maybe when their parents feel they are old enough to travel somewhere that actually has access to rails. Doing the Tour is a major investment obviously, and this way can attract more riders who aren't hindered because they don't have access to rails. With the investment in mind, why would any intelligent person compete when they have an obvious disadvantage? Rail riding isn't necessarily wakeboarding, it's an aspect of it, let alone if rails is kept within the more elite (Pros), that gives them another thing setting them apart from the normal crowd and making their divisions unique.

I would wager that the percentage of boys that can hit rails as opposed to those that cannot is huge. <BR>And if you are going to wait until you are 16 or 18 before you think you are old enough you are going to be playing catch up for the rest of your career.

"And if you are going to wait until you are 16 or 18 before you think you are old enough you are going to be playing catch up for the rest of your career." --> Finally something Chris &amp; I agree on. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

my take on rails is this...if you have enough board control to be riding jr mens then you have enough board control to hit a rail. if you can do 5's, 7's &amp; multiple mobes then, in my opinion, you should have the required board control to hit a rail. <BR> <BR>all it takes is one comp to take your hand at a rail and then you've got it.

The way I see it, JR Men has the largest potential turnout of any division. The problem is that the division of skill level is pretty wide; you have the Jimmy LaRiche's and the Harley Clifford's that are presumably gettin money gettin paid like someone mentioned above, and then there are the rest of the kids around the country that fall into that age bracket. There's probably a ton of potential revenue lost because kids that would be riding in that division just stay home instead of spending all that time and money just to ride once on a Thursday and get waxed by Jimmy and Harley. Same goes for the lack of sliders. Some kids kill it on the wake but would lose every time because they never have the opportunity to hit rails like some of those top guys. <BR> <BR>This just seems like a way to even the playing field a little bit. My guess is that the tour sees the new division as a way to encourage more riders in that age bracket to come out and compete. <BR> <BR>I guess it's cool if you insist on riding in contests but you don't want to get smoked by kids that are way better than you. At the risk of bringing up bad memories of old threads, it's starting to sound eerily similar to another tour...a novice tour...that is run internationally...

i agree the ability should be there, and they will be playing catch up. They already are though. Kids are moving to FLA for months just to practice on rails. This is about resources and access, living in FLA shouldn't be a pre-requisite for doing well at the age of 14. I think some of you need to realize what it was to be 14 again, or to have a 14 year old that wants to do this. Obviously Chris has too much experience with it.

i think it is a very good idea. i dont see why people are so against it when they arent even going to be riding in the divisions. i think this will give kids a chance to push themselves to get better to make it to the next division. they wont be getting smoked by the good kids that could be doing good in pro. yes it does push you when you ride against those really good guys, but when you know you dont have the oppurtunity to train and ride as much as they do then it is good to have another division.

I like it. There are not that many legitimate wakeboard tournaments for young guys to ride in at that level. And it is only those 3 tournaments, not the tour. It will open up the door for a lot of riders who don't want to compete against pro level riders but would love to compete against other kids around the country. I think you will see a very good turn out, economy willing. <BR> <BR>Most riders don't have an opportunity to hit those kind of obstacles around the country. It is a lot of money to travel to a tournament and if you have no chance of advancing against those top 20 guys you won't go. Now it will open up some spots for people who don't live in FL. There isn't enough demand to separate the other divisions such as the Jr Women and boys. This will be like the Men's 1 and 2 divisions they now have at these tournaments.

Nice move...I think it is a GREAT idea. The difference between Jr. Mens and Jr. Pro Mens can be immense these days. <BR> <BR>Chris...the real world outside of Orlando is that there are not rails in most places. Orlando is unique in that it has everything for a wakeboarder....lakes, cables, rails. Most have to travel for that opportunity. Hitting a rail at a random contest is not like hitting it over and over for practice.