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-   -   Help! Tips for toeside jumps!!! (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=781872)

07-21-2010 2:01 PM

Help! Tips for toeside jumps!!!
I continue to struggle with my toe side. Are there any tips for getting this down? I'm going to try shortening the rope from 55 to 45 ft . Heal side is going great. Can clear both wakes with decent height at 55ft.


Luker 07-21-2010 2:10 PM

Without a vid I cant say for sure... but I'm about 99% positive the following tips will help you hahaha

1. Stand tall at the top of the wake
2. Don't let off your edge
3. Keep the handle tight to your lead hip all the way through the top of the the wake
4. Chest to the shore and stay out over your toes (keep edging) on the landing.

newmy79 07-21-2010 3:15 PM

the place I have trouble with toeside is my tendency to let go of the handle with my left hand to try and stabilize my landing (I'm goofy-foot), and it's also because it's so unnatural for me and my body wants to do a 180. I'm going to keep practicing this though all summer and get it down because it's annoying have to cross the wake back to HS each time because I can't do a TS jump. I always just ollie 180 into switch HS and then do a half-cab 180 back to regular stance. It's my signature move! lol

jcollinge 07-21-2010 4:18 PM

Leaning down the line is really important to maintain a good edge and get some good pop...

wakerider111 07-21-2010 6:03 PM

1 Attachment(s)
A common thing with toesides is that people unintentionally do 180s and or having a habit of letting go with the back hand.

keeping the board traveling on path has a ton to do with Handle Position. it is critical to keep it near the lead hip. it actually helps to lower the handle a bit as you rise through the air and let it it almost come around to the backside of your front hip. think about where the handle is when you edge as far out as you can toeside, it is going to be at your lead hip, almost just behind you. having the handle more at your navel while jumping is going to pull your navel toward the boat, initiating a 180 or less, resulting in the nose pointed toward the boat and slipping out on landing. keep the nose pointed in the direction of travel.
The attached picture is the best example i could find in my collection, notice the handle position, placement

if you must let go with the back hand, try to do it at least until after you have left the top of the wake, this will help considerably as you learn to delay letting go to the point you won't have to.

You might even actually lengthen the rope out as far as you can. with the rope out you can get double the practice with half the intimidation when learning jumps. you will jump the first wake from the outside in, landing about half way across the wake and then proceed to edge and jump the second wake from the inside out. do this for heelside and toeside. no case-ing the wake involved, just double the time learning good form and habbits. then shorten the rope back after your feeling comfortable

calexan 07-21-2010 6:04 PM

Yea to me it feels like its trying to yank my front hip towards the boat once i leave the water.....i dont know if my line towards the wake is too horizontal but it seems like im fighting not to spin when im no longer on edge.... Im gonna try to video it this weekend and maybe yall can help, but im pretty sure im keeping the handle on my hip.

john211 07-21-2010 6:12 PM

I've seen many riders better than me heelside struggle clearing the wake toeside and I've wondered .. what's the hang up? It's surely easy. (Don't hate yet.)

First, get a copy of Retrospect, and watch one of the Gator episodes, the one where Byerly flies over Gator with a TS Raley and then sets up out in the flats to show Gator how to lean. The lean is stiff, absolutely tall, and leaning all the way back away from and down the rope.

You want the center of the rope pull waist high, but part way around your back. Twist your lead hand as needed to get the rope pull that way. (Maybe, place your front hand about on the inside front quarter of the handle, rear hand against the front hand and about on the inside back quarter of the handle. Maybe you point the handle down -- rear hand down -- as if you're going to put the handle in an imaginary rear pant pocket, or, that is, about 2 inches away from your leading butt cheek.)Your rear arm will carry most of the tension. YouTube videos will show you people doing it with the front hand let loose. I advise -- courtesy of the scolding of Mr. Murray -- hanging on with your front hand or else you'll lose elevation.

Start out wide. Drift (let the boat pull you) in. It all unfolds slowly. I transition from pointing the nose of the board parallel with the course of the boat, to slowly pointing at the rear corner of the boat nearest me, to -- as I'm closely approaching the wake -- pointing the nose to the rear corner of the boat fartherst from me. Stand tall. It's easier to stand tall toeside than HS because of your twisted position. Then I take my eyes off the boat corners and look about 45 degrees to the opposite shore. Just hold that Byerly position.

Don't ever fold. Don't freak. It's form of a tall, gradual, slalom-skier's attack at the wake.

Maybe you might hit the wake soft a couple of times, just to get inside the wake. Maybe (uh-oh, this is controversial) loosen your bindings so on a crash you eject rather than hold. I mean, wakeskaters do this with no problem ... and they aren't attached to bindings.

cwb4me 07-21-2010 6:31 PM

a young man at the lake i ride at told me stand on your knees . by that he ment stand on your tip toes with your knees slightly bent . so your body is in line with your knees your whole body will be straight when you push off the wake like pushing off the diving board on a back dive. you want to go straight up so you push straight up. last year i couldn't even clear the wake toeside at 65 feet consistently this year now that i understand how to do this i can clear the wake toeside and do a 180 at 85 foot rope length on a stock wake with no ballast. it may not happen that quick for you . i'm a young man of only 50 years and young people learn quicker. a 16 year old taught me the secret. get some coaching from someone who understands the science behind this sport.

bmr82 07-21-2010 8:50 PM

My biggest problem was I was turning my body but not the board. I have to really focus on kicking my back leg towards the back of the boat. It's so much easier to stay on edge that way as well.

jsw 07-21-2010 11:25 PM

luker's tips are spot on. edge out to approach the wake toeside. on your edge in, pin the handle to your lead hip. this gets you the strong pull you need to get pop and clear the wake. make sure to stand tall at the wake to stay in position. if you are uncomfortable in the air it is because you were leaned to far over your toes, which will throw you off balance. you should have no trouble if the rope stays at your lead hip literally almost against it and you stand straight at the wake. hope this helps. just practice short (1 wake) until you feel the pop. then go for it.

garveyj 07-22-2010 10:44 AM

I learned that when edging on the toe side to point your belly button up to the sky to get a good edge going and keep it there....That should also help with the standing up tall piece. Alot of people bend over at the waist when they come in to the wake and the collapse at that point when they hit the wake.

bmartin 07-22-2010 12:42 PM

Many good tips up there and will just emphasize; edge, edge, edge. Stay on your edge through the wake, and when you think you can't edge anymore, stay on your edge. I see a lot of people let off 'the gas pedal' and get off their edge as they hit the wake which you can get away with on your heelside, but not so much toeside. Good Luck.

fly135 07-22-2010 12:56 PM


Originally Posted by garveyj (Post 1612164)
I learned that when edging on the toe side to point your belly button up to the sky to get a good edge going and keep it there....

I'd like to see someone do that. I'm visualizing someone twisted like a rubber band.:confused:

texastbird 07-24-2010 6:50 AM


Originally Posted by fly135 (Post 1612234)
I'd like to see someone do that. I'm visualizing someone twisted like a rubber band.:confused:

LOL - I had the same problem.

stuey 07-24-2010 11:57 AM

Practice doing backside slides behind the boat to get the position down. Slow the boat down to start to avoid catching an edge. You can start with one hand which is easier, then work your way to doing it with both hands on the handle, handle pinned to your hip, a little more towards your butt side. If you can hold that position well behind the boat, bump it back up to normal riding speed and go for it. My biggest problem used to be being to parallel to the wake, which would pop me up and land me in the middle of the wake and pull me forward. Harder to keep edging out on your toes that way. Make sure you go with what the above poster said and angle yourself on a 45 degree perpendicular to the wake. Think of your board position jumping heelside, that's how you want to be toeside to clear the other wake.

kitewake 07-25-2010 4:25 PM

Here is a edited version of the "how to TS" reply I posted on the forum at learnwake.com...:

1. Spend a ton of time doing the TS drills. Grabbing your shorts drill (look up Toeside Drill on youtube) helps you understand how to lean properly against the rope, and use your right arm (if Reg stance) to react the line tension. The BS slide drill (I dont think this one is on Youtube) really helps with the 'twist'.

For me, the short grab drill really had two phases of progression. First you learn to arch your back.....and stick your belly up/hips forward. This will allow you to hold the position and lean against the rope properly. Once you have this solid...then you need to learn to hold that position...AND get more knee bend (rolling your knees forward) THIS is very important..as it allows you to modulate your edge power.

-Get the "grab your boardshort" drill dialed...WITH control over knee bend and edge power control
-Add your other hand...but use that hand only to drive the handle back to your left hip. Keep the pull on your right arm. Try using only your fingertips with the other hand to position the handle more to your hip/rear.
-Another good drill is to sit in the trough of the wake one the side so you can edge out TS away from the wakes. BEND YOUR KNEES as much as you can, and then try to edge out TS with one arm. Bending your knees will make you want to break at the waist...but you must not do this. Keep the knee bend (especially the front knee...having a some front knee bend is key to a great TS edge)
-Once you are able to edge out TS with bolt hands..and hold that form, here is a new drill I came up with. Start in the wake on the right side (TS landing side). Ride up the wake a bit (HS) to get some momentum...swing down...and edge out TS with a VERY moderate edge...3 on a scale of 1-10..... in proper position. Pick a target spot about 10' in front of you...and at that point, learn to quickly but smoothly go from a moderate edge...to a very strong (7-8) edge. Being able to edge TS and modulate your edge power using your knees is key.

Now...you have all the ingredients to pop TS. Do some one wake jumps with a 3-4' approach. ....so very short. Use that increasing edge you learned how to do on the other side. Learn to build line tension right before the wake. Hold that line tension AND POSITION up the wake. Do not change your body position AT ALL. If you do things right...and build that tension so close to the wake...you will nearly be going W2W with the super short approach. Keep practicing this over and over until you are casing it...and you can take the beatings no more. Then take the approach out to 6'-8'..and you will clear it easy. Just be patient and build that line tension very late. You have to have the confidence in the edge to build the line tension with good form very late.

As for how you manipulate the board up the wake...DONT. Some people will tell you to edge away from the boat (more square to the wake) even more... at the last instant. It does not work. It will force you nose high..and out the back. With TS...I found you get much better pop if you actually don't try to square the board up to the wake as much. The nose of the board can be pointing more towards the boat...and you will actually get BETTER pop. Watch some wakeboard vids...and you will see how the pros get huge pop TS while they are hardly even edging into the wake. This is how TS works. Maximize line tension at the base of the wake...and hold your good edge position. Dont worry about the board being pointed more towards the boat. It works that way... In this respect...I disagree with what Stuey said. There is no way a TS jump can ever be as square to the wake as a HS jump (unless you are doing a TS backroll or OA release). It just does not work that way. My final breakthrough on TS jumps was when I learned to stop trying to square the board up to the wake as much. As soon as I realized this counter intuitive point, I added 2-3 of pop to my TS jumps. I now pop higher and more consistenly TS that HS. I have even started taking TS jumps grabbed into the flats....

Once you get better...the only thing you will change in your position right at the wake for a normal jump is knee bend. You can deepen your bend as you increase the line tension...and stand tall a bit to increase pop. But for now...dont worry about that. To much to think about... Just hold the same correct position. Most people...even some pros...will crouch down and increase the break in the waist just before the wake...and then stand tall. This is not ideal. If you are going to get low, then try to get taller to increase pop...you must do it all in the knees....

Some other tips....
1. Unless you are an advanced rider...you should always go back to the wake to start a new wake jump. Your TS jump actually starts with you in the trough of the wake...edge up the wake slightly TS...then swing out solidly HS. Your strongest edge out is at the start. Go flat...then start your TS approach edge.
2. The TS transition is faster than HS. Don't linger as long as you do HS.
3. When you are at the transition back in..and starting your TS edge in...drive the handle lower. This will lock you into a stronger edging position. Make sure your position is solid though. If you do not have the belly up position fully locked in...driving the handle down could cause you to break at the waist.

A good basic TS jump is all about a good TS edge....and nothing more. You can spend months working on handle position, timing, board manipulation, and if your TS edge is bad...none of it will matter. If you spend a few days working on your TS edge though....then try a jump after getting your edge dialed...you will probably nail it....

kitewake 07-25-2010 4:43 PM


Here is what he means by belly up.... vs not...

See the 0:35 point of this vid...


If you can not do the one hand drill with your shoulders back, it is because your position is wrong.

As an aside...the position at the 0:35 point could have even more knee bend. I can not emphasize how much it improves your edge to be able to hold the belly up position with a lot of knee bend...especially the front knee.

fly135 07-26-2010 12:30 PM

When you look at it on video it's a lot different than I visualized in my mind. I even went back and checked a vid of myself and sure enough my belly is pointing up on the toeside cut.

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