Ok I really didn't want to do this but I just wanted to see what you guys thought of this...The tower on my 07 Supra has a crack in a weld which to me is obviously a craftsmanship error. My dealer has tried to resolve this matter with XTP but they would not step up to the plate and replace the tower. <BR> <BR>At one point their website had this q/a about warranty: <BR> <BR>Q. What is the warranty and maintenance? What if it doesn't fit my boat or I don't like it? <BR>We provide several ways to make sure you believe in XTP products as much as we do. First we provide the Best in the Industry 5 Year Warranty against defect in parts or workmanship. We will repair or replace any defective part at no charge to you <BR> <BR>We then were told that this was just their universal tower products so it was a guessing game on which website to use..there was xtpwake.com and xtremetowers.com....I still haven't seen any warranty info which applies to a 06-07 model tower but, the website currently states that there is a 1 year warranty from date of purchase which would apply on all the current model boats. <BR> <BR>Let me know what you guys think... <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754152.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754153.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754154.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>}

And before anyone asks, Ill vouch for the fact that there has never been any tubes or anything other than wakeboarders pulled from the tower.

OUCH!

Is that just one crack photo'd several times, or multiple cracks? Where at on the tower?

The warranty on all factory towers is 1-year, which could be confirmed through Skiers Choice (which you probably tried to get it warrantied through too) and for all of the factory towers built by XTP. XTP used to build universal towers (X-Change, X-Caliber, and Edge) which had the 5-year warranty. XTP's old webpage is xtpwake.com and catered to those universal towers, which explains why 5-year warranty was mentioned. <BR> <BR>This isn't anything XTP is trying to spring on you, anyone who has bought a factory tower from XTP or has purchased a new boat with a factory tower has the same 1-year warranty, it's been that way since around '02 if i'm not mistaken.

Have you called Skiers Choice directly? Call Anthony and ask for Rick Tinker directly if you need to. Email <a href="mailto:rloucks@skierschoice.com">rloucks@ski erschoice.com</a>, <a href="mailto:mbrown@skierschoice.com">mbrown@skier schoice.com</a> or <a href="mailto:rtinker@skierschoice.com">rtinker@ski erschoice.com</a> <BR> <BR>Post up at supraboats.com/bbs <BR> <BR>(Message edited by wakemikey on January 04, 2010)

Ouch is right. Tinker has stepped up a number of times for other warranty issues. While I can see the 1 warranty has expired, it sure seems like XTP towers should last more than 3 yrs. Hopefully he can pull some strings for you. <BR> <BR>Where is this crack located? I'm guessing front side where the upright is welded to the lower section? Just boarders? Nobody sitting on the tower? How many speakers? <BR> <BR>Might be a good idea to have a fabricator look at it &amp; come up with a good fix. Seems like you could brace it somehow. The trick would be making it look good too. <BR> <BR>Good luck. Hope you can get it resolved.

I am interested to hear how this plays out. I am not taking any sides at all and don't know much about welding. <BR>The main question I have is how is the crack in the tubing and not just the weld? I could see a crack forming around the weld which could be perceived as craftmanship, but how does that crack continue on into the solid tube. Wouldn't that be caused be a greater force? On the opposite side I know the dealers sometimes have to flex and force those towers into place. Could that happen from the flex over time?

Once a crack starts it forms a huge stress concentration so it could easily carry over to the original structure.

I don't think XTP or Skier's Choice owes you anthing...take your boat to a welder and have the tower repaired...

Here is the location of the crack..only on one side....WakeMikey thx for the info...I have contacted Rick. XTP is putting the blame on the wetsounds 3some now... <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754187.jpg" alt="Upload">

wow! thats not good bro, take it to a welder and have em make it look good

welds look bad as they do on most towers.the crack is in the heat affected zone which is not as strong as the rest of the tube after welding. in my opinion the crack was caused from flex in the boat and tower over time and would have to be a warranty fix through supra.

Wow, really surprises me that the crack is happening in spite of the gusset below that joint. <BR>How heavy is the WS 3some? Doesn't surprise me at all that they would point at the speaker weight. Combined with some rough water conditions, that point in the tower is going thru some big stresses. <BR> <BR>Find a good TIG welder &amp; have them add a plate behind that joint &amp; the gusset, and weld all the way around it. Should be fine.

When you weld two things together the weak point becomes the tempered metal right outside of the weld.Even if you weld it back up it will look like total crap with the weld following a sideways crack. <BR>You could replace that whole section but the tubing is not thick enough to support your stereo and would only crack again. <BR>In my mind they should use a thicker tubing to reflect what is considered normal stereo equipment nowadays but seeing they don't your only option is to modify the tower you already have with a gusset in the weak area or change towers.

To much weight on the tower. Find an experienced fabricator and have them fix it.

The weight difference in the stock tower speaker/light bar set up that came with that year is actually heavier than the 485 and the 2 Pro 80's. This is crap that they are screwing with you. <BR>I had the same tower on my 2006 and had much more on the tower than you have and we never had any problems. <BR>The welds on most towers isnt the prettiest of weld jobs, but as long as it is welded at the correct heat and the root of the weld is solid and slag is grinded out properly the finish cap on a weld is purely cosmetic. <BR>This is definently an overheating issue when they welded the joints. That is what weakened the metal thus caused the cracking when put under stress. <BR>The warranty is one thing, but I am sure that XTP has General Liability coverage under their contract with SC. This is a closed case of Construction Defect. I would contact XTP and Skiers Choice directly and let them know that you are requesting a copy of their weld procedures, next I would file a GL claim for Construction Defect. <BR>I would give Rick a chance to respond first but at some point you may have to bring out the big guns on this one to get resolution.

The thing I see is that its not like it would take a whole new tower, just the smaller upper part.. That shouldn't be anything for them. Just surprised that in this industry, you would rather save a very small amount of cash, in the scheme of things, placing the blame, rather than step up and show riders that if they trust in your product, you got their back.

It would be interesting to get actual figures for the total weight of the Wetsounds compared to the the total weight of the stock speaker system. <BR> <BR>Be careful about bringing out "the big guns" in a case like this. Tinker has been very cooperative to his end users in the past. But the second you tell them you are contacting a lawyer, they will tell you to talk to their lawyers &amp; stop talking directly with you altogether.

The design of the tower puts a huge amount of stress in that exact point. A basic statics class would tell you that. Since the larger member on top is cantilevered at that point it wants to bend downward. I would love to work out the "static problem" on that tower and figure out the loads at the various points on the tower. The little curved member does very little I bet. The "dynamices problem would be ever more fun!

Bill, I totally agree. This should be a last resort. I think that Rick is very gracious in how he handles situations like this. <BR>My bigger point is that warranties are great but they arent the end all. If there is a true defect in the craftsmanship due to the lack of following simple weld procedures than just saying that it is out of warranty shouldnt be the answer from the manufacturer. <BR>I agree wholeheartedly with Lyle. It is amazing that rather than XTP standing behind their product in a situation like this, that the company just doesnt take care of the guy. This isnt a regular occurance for their product and the cost to them is very minimal. Especially when the 2007's were at the peak of the markup. They definently made their money on this boat.

I bet inferior Chinese aluminum and an overheated weld caused already crappy metal to be weakened even more. Take it to a good welder and see what he says. I'm sure machinists on this site will agree that a lot of metal comes from China and is not the quality its sold as. At least thats what one of my friends who is a machinist is always telling me!

^^^^ LOL if keeps saying that then his company must still be buying crappy metal. Keep the overhead down and the pockets fat.

"It is amazing that rather than XTP standing behind their product in a situation like this, that the company just doesnt take care of the guy." <BR> <BR>I partially agree, but c'mon, Jeff put 60lbs+ (maybe way more, not sure what those things weigh) permanently on the tower- that wasn't going to end good from the get go.

Like someone stated though. The stock set-up would be heavier.

Jeff, you've got me interested now. The tower on my 07 Supra flexes like you wouldn't believe in not-so-smooth water. I sometimes look up like it's gonna come crashing down on me. I've even been so scared that I wear the dead-man-switch just in case it does come down and take me out. <BR> <BR>Guess I'll be inspecting mine real closely next time I'm in the shop. <BR> <BR>What about the pad under the rear feet of the tower on your boat? Is it coming out? I haven't checked, but I don't think there's a backing plate under mine and the rubber pad between the deck and foot of the tower is slipping out.

This is my old boat set up. This is the same tower on a 2006 21V. I never had any problems and we took this through double up after double up many times. It isnt a design flaw. Its a poor craftsmanship issue. Or like Aaron is saying a bad or cheap metal issue. Both are a products liability issue. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754328.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/754329.jpg" alt="Upload">

Tower speaker weight is not the reason for the failure. The bead is too narrow and not centered. Too much of the weld is on one bar and not enough on the bar where it cracked. Just a badly positioned, narrow weld bead. It happens to us humans. Robots, not so much.

"Robots, not so much" <BR> <BR>Had me cracking up.

I hate to tell you guys this but allmost all metal comes from china.I cannot find a American supplier other than some of my drawn over mandrel stuff. <BR>Something else I find strange is they grow cotton over here and ship it to china then ship it back as pants.Is labor really so cheap you can freight two ways and still come out on top?

John, the tower mounts are all tightened and secure.....I haven't heard back from Rick yet he was supposedly looking into the issue. XTP has offered a tower top for $886 bux, but to me why should I be out that kind of money when craftsmanship issues are present.

886 $ For the top!!!! what a deal!! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> I just cant see how they could even act like the speakers would matter anyway.. The boat comes stock with more weight than that on it.. Just makes them look super shady... Own up so your customers will feel confident

I talked to a mechanical engineer and showed him the photos and here's what he had to say: <BR> <BR>The most common defect in a weld is high hardness in the "heat affected zone" (HAZ). The HAZ occurs in the base metal not the weld bead itself. So the crack starts at the intersection of the weld metal (bead) and base metal and propogates through the base metal (and often the weld bead itself remains intact). The photo is a classic example of a defective weld due to high hardness in the HAZ (probably by applying too much heat during the weld process). <BR> <BR>Also, he theorizes that the Pro 485 and pair of Pro 80's may be a "possible catalyst". The weight (and more importantly, the inertia caused by the weight) should be a consideration in the design of the tower. If it is not, they are getting close to making some foolish statements to the public, and have regrets later on for doing so. That is like designing a boat assuming it will not have any passengers.

Im nowhere close to a mechanical engineer. <BR>1)not all welds are perfect <BR>2)your the one that screwed up <BR>1+2= Fix it

Obivously the xtra weight of the speakers did not help. Those speakers are not light. All that weight on the upper portion of any tower adds considerable stress and sway. <BR> <BR>For what its worth I had a similar issue on my last boat. We installed a Skylon tower on the boat and about a year later it cracked. No questions asked they stepped up and fixed it.

did my last post get deleted??

@ Brock.....not all metal comes from china, lol. Maybe all the stuff your buying??? <BR> <BR>I work in oil/gas/ pipeline industry....our $30 billion company does not purchase any piping with any china made metal in it. But then again we catch 99% of our bad welds. <BR> <BR>And yes, it's much cheaper on a large scale to outsource labor on clothing products like that...even with shipping factored in. <BR> <BR>In this industry, with the exception of a few aftermarket companies, my impression are most owners/builders are unqualified to build/design the products they sell, compounded with the fact most companies are relatively young being held to standards of a mature company.

I had a similar problem on my Sanger.... End result: Pro-Flight didn't care. I sold the boat and bought a Master Craft. <BR> <BR>Pretty lame how some companies wont stand behind their products. If it were a 10 year old boat I'd understand, but mine was 2 years old when it had the problem.

I don't understand how a 60 lbs. speaker system should be that big of a contributing factor on the crack on this tower. Especially when compared to how much pressure is put on these towers from loading the line while wakeboarding over and over and over again. I would think that is a massive amount of routine pressure and force occurring to which the towers are built for.

Would be cool to be a fly on the wall when the tower was designed, huh. Based on the curved down tubes &amp; the serious overhang on that top bar, I'd be willing to bet they weren't banking on any large amount of weight being loaded on the top of the tower....... or it just wasn't tested under those conditions.

The towers are designed with lateral forces in mind, the rider. You start loading it up with speakers, vertical forces, it may fail. Rider forces are not a stress on the tower when going over rough water or double ups as much as a speaker system. <BR> <BR>I think that the failure is in the manufacturing, it is pretty easy to see where it came from. I am just saying that speakers may or may not have been a factor, but it didnt do the crap weld job any favors.

I have to say that these are some of the strongest towers on the market. I will not name names for fear of incriminating them or their warranties if a problem ever does arise. <BR>-I have seen three grown men of 200lbs each sitting on these towers all at once and have more tower speakers than Jeff. <BR>-I have seen the same said three men up there and have people jumping off into the water. Imagine the pressure that creates. <BR>-I have seen this type of behavior many times. <BR> <BR>Ha ha.... true story though. Sounds like others on this board know more about welding and sounds like it could be a defect. <BR> <BR>I am sure Tinker is doing what he can to get the manufacturer (XTP)to step up behind the scenes, but it is one of those moral dilemnas. Cover a product that is our of warranty or point them in the right direction to fix it. <BR>Either way good luck to you Jeff and I hope you get it all fixed up. My best advice is to handle it very politically and professionally no matter what the outcome is.

I can verify that the OEM Roswell speaker/light bar is just as heavy or heavier than the 3-Some. My boat came with the Roswell, and now has the 3-Some. <BR> <BR> <BR>You won't hear back from Rick. You'll hear from someone else. I've had lots of issues with my boat (built like a Kia, paid for a Cadillac), and Mr. Tinker has seen some of my complaints on here and other forums. He offered to help, but when he told me to call, he never answered, never returned calls, but just passed it on to someone else.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>By TRDon (trdon) on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 1:55 pm: <BR>The towers are designed with lateral forces in mind, the rider. You start loading it up with speakers, vertical forces, it may fail. Rider forces are not a stress on the tower when going over rough water or double ups as much as a speaker system. <BR> <BR>I think that the failure is in the manufacturing, it is pretty easy to see where it came from. I am just saying that speakers may or may not have been a factor, but it didnt do the crap weld job any favors.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>Do you have an engineering degree by chance or are you a PE? <BR> <BR>BTW everyone to quote you type: <BR> <BR> \ quote{whatever you are quoting} <BR> <BR>Don't include the space after the slash though...

Jeff, <BR> <BR>Tony Williams of XTP has been trying to reach you today. Hopefully you guys can talk Weds. <BR> <BR>Rick

What tower is designed with 10 aftermarket speakers installed on it for the long term in rough water conditions? You dont need to be a engineer to see that. I havent seen any factory speaker systems matching what he has, nor have I seen any factory components over engineered. Because of that, sometimes they fail. I have a supercharger on a mustang. It didnt come stock with it, I put it on. It is stressing the factory engine because it was not designed with that in mind. It may stress it and burn up a ring land or piston. Factory parts are engineered for longevity with the factory components or options in mind. <BR> <BR>Like I said, I am not saying the speakers are the factor by any means. My engine is still running. Sometimes aftermarket components can co-exist just fine. But if my engine failed, I would understand why ford would not warranty it. It may be consiterd abuse adding all the speakers, therefore voiding the warranty. Though the addition of speakers very likely did not create the broken weld, it is a way out for warranty. Just playing devils advocate.

Thx guys for all the help and input. It was determined that the crack was caused by side to side sway instead of a construction defect. Myself and XTP have reached a solution that I am happy with. Thx to Rick and Tony for helping me resolve this issue.

TRDon, what are you talking about? The tower that cracked didnt have ten speakers on it. That was another posters identical tower with no issues even though it had ten speakers... <BR> <BR>Jeff, glad you reached a mutual agreement especially since it was out of warranty. Gotta hand it to Rick and XTP for that one. As someone with 25 years welding experience, I know a bad weld when I see one though. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by wake_upppp on January 05, 2010)

I didnt say it did. I just asked the questions of if it is designed for it and made the comment that somtimes it will be fine, sometimes it isnt. Nowhere did I ever say that the speakers caused the crack, on the contrary, I said it likely did not.

"What tower is designed with 10 aftermarket speakers installed on it for the long term in rough water conditions?" I assumed you were refering to the tower with 10 speakers as the one that had the failed weld, but it wasnt. Even more proof that the OP didnt overweight his in my eyes.

Nice to hear that it was resolved Jeff. Great to hear that the manufacturer stepped up to your satisfaction. <BR>My experiences with SC has always been that they try and get their manufacturers to step up to the plate. This is great business.

Good to hear it's resolved.... The side to side sway is what worried me about mine. <b>It did that with the Roswell light bar and the 3-Some.</b>

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>It did that with the Roswell light bar and the 3-Some.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>pretty much proof for TRDon's theory that 60lbs IS too much weight on that tower. I don't think that's XTP's problem, it's Supra's problem for putting a Roswell system on there that is too heavy. <BR> <BR>Without the 60+ pounds of weight up there, you wouldn't have nearly the sway. <BR> <BR>Good job XTP for making this right- those are some stand up guys.

Pretty <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> that it can't handle the extra weight, if that's your theory. Every other tower can handle the weight. I guess you believe the XTP towers on a wakeboat can't have boardracks, lights, or speakers, huh?

No way "every other tower can handle the weight" of all the racks, speakers &amp; other crap people put on these boats. <BR>This is an old story... tower failures due to overloading. It may be new for Supra/XTP, and a drag for the OP, but loads of other towers have failed from being overloaded or used improperly. Metcraft would have died years ago if they hadn't won the lottery with the Illusion &amp; Malibu. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by bill_airjunky on January 06, 2010)

Companies spend millions to promote their products. Letting posts like this go on and on will do more damage to brand loyalty than the cost of a new tower. I for one will never buy a XTP product and SC is not high on my next boat list. I read all the forums and there are a choice few companies that know what Customer Service is. Thanks for the forums with out them nobody would even know.

Way to step up to the plate guys! faith restored

President of the boat builder, contacting the guys at a vendor for you, and setting up a phone conversation to work it out? I'd say this company knows what customer service is. <BR> <BR>Hopefully the end result will be satisfactory to both parties.

Ditto, NAW... a few need to consider the bigger scope of how this was handled. Did you guys forget this is a tower that is three years out of warranty?? It should be recognized that Supra and XTP stepped up and worked with the original poster towards a mutual resolution. I'm surprised that's not satisfactory to some. <BR> <BR>I've been in and behind most everything and can tell you my XTP is one of the best designs out there and is more consistent and moves less than most. but they all flex, and eventually, some will fail. These are boats, after all...! <BR> <BR>(Message edited by phenom_1819 on January 06, 2010)

"Pretty •••••• that it can't handle the extra weight, if that's your theory. Every other tower can handle the weight. I guess you believe the XTP towers on a wakeboat can't have boardracks, lights, or speakers, huh?" <BR> <BR>John, I'm not sure there are many towers out there that can really handle 60+ pounds of static weight on the top of the tower. Thats a huge amount of weight- makes it tough to fold down, tougher to drive through dubs and sharp turns, and makes for crazy sway and rattle. Not sure why you don't believe me since you've obviously seen it yourself. <BR> <BR>I have an XTP tower on my boat, it's a beast, but I only have 4 tower speakers on it that weigh 6lbs each. Even so- those 4 tower speakers, due to their location, cause more sway than 4 boards in the rack, which probably weigh 3-4 times as much. It's all Physics John.

Congrats Jeff and another example of seeing SC and XTP step to the plate to help a customer.

Also, though this thread maybe long it was all resolved in 1.5 days once you get the right people involved. Pretty impressive.

I agree with Diggs. 1.5 days to come up with a solution is damn fast.

Rick and SC are great. A good part of the reason I purchased another Supra. Nice job to XTP too.

And yet the same tower with more than twice the speakers has no issues. It's not the weight. All the essentials for a good quality weld are not always going to be there, and thats why every brand tower is only really going to be as good as the build quality, craftmanship and design especially when its humans doing the welding.

All this talk about speakers, what about the load on teh tower when the boat's pulling a wakeboarder?

A simple Weld Procedure, and a good Quality Control Program goes along way. It also keep humans working. <BR>In this economy I have to hand it to those companies that are employing people through these hard times vs. turning a bigger profit by cutting staff and integrating to computerized welding machines. <BR>Im sure that this tower was built in 2006 during the boom in sales for the industry. Thus getting the product out the door was the biggest focus and not the quality or the craftsmanship. <BR>The problem with welding and structural Construction Defect issues is they usually dont show themselves until after the warranty term is expired.

According to the original post Jeff tried to get the problem resolved through his dealer. Only after he reluctantly made the problem known to the public did the problem get resolved. I am glad he got it resolved but without the posting I wonder if it would be handled the same?

I think if he would of contacted Rick Tinker and not have posted this it would have been handled the same. SC really took care of me on my first boat and they did not have to what they did for me. I never got to talk with Rick Tinker no matter how hard I tried. They took care of me before the phone call got that far. The illusive Rick T.

I disagree. Skiers Choice is easy to talk to on the phone imo. I have only called a handful (5-10) of times, and I have been given Rick Tinkers email and his office phone number. He sent me an email in regards to a post. Every time I call I get a live person. IMO it is very common for someone (rick) to say, "If you have any issues call me" and mean "us" as in Skiers Choice. I have the email of the customer service person Anthony, the cs manager as well as the engineer/parts guy. Every time I call, I am transferred to whoever can help answer my questions. I dont have a new boat, but sometimes I think people post issues online instead of being persistant over the phone. IMHO.

Sometimes pestering and returning phone call after phone call and waiting waiting waiting, you get tired. Maybe you haven't experienced that, but I know some people have.