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-   -   Weird starting problem (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746646)

mrm2083 11-11-2009 12:48 PM

My boat starts up just fine the first time but if I let it run for a few minutes, turn it off, and try to start it back up again it wont. I hear it trying but it just wont start up. It doesn't make sense, the battery is brand new, fully charged, the alternator is working perfectly. I thought maybe it was the starter but what's strange is it starts perfectly when it's cold. Any ideas what it could be?

polarbill 11-11-2009 12:56 PM

Start by checking all your battery cable connections. Your boat is in saltwater all the time, right? I would pull off the connections at the starter/block and clean them all up with a wire brush. Also if it is your original starter it may be kicking the bucket being in a saltwater environment for it's whole life. <BR> <BR>When you say it tries to start but doesn't do you mean you can hear it cranking the engine over but it just isn't cranking fast enough to fire off the engine or is the solenoid just clicking?

mrm2083 11-11-2009 12:59 PM

I hear it turning over. What doesn't make sense is that it start fine at that beginning. If the cables were rusted then I would think that it would have starting problems at all times.

polarbill 11-11-2009 1:08 PM

I am not sure if this is right but a really technical person here at my work says that the compression will be higher once the oil is distributed through the motor. This may cause it to be a little harder to start. This is coming from someone who really knows his stuff. <BR> <BR>If you have a voltage tester check to see what your voltage is while cranking cold and then compare that to when you are cranking it warm. The voltage may have a bigger drop when cranking warm. <BR> <BR>I would still clean up the connections at the starter and where the ground cable from the battery attaches to the block. What kind of battery did you put in and how many cold cranking amps is it?

tuneman 11-11-2009 2:33 PM

Vapor lock?

bill_airjunky 11-11-2009 3:34 PM

Vapor lock is typically when the engine is hot. Like when it's 95 degrees &amp; you've been idling around at low speed. <BR> <BR>Does the starter spin slow? Or the same speed each time?

denverd1 11-11-2009 3:44 PM

MCX engine? Does it fire at some point? <BR> <BR>Great suggestion on cleaning cables and contacts. Especially in salt. <BR> <BR>Brett, if hydraulic lifters are in there then that makes sense. On first crank, the lifters are compressed and they wouldn't fully seat the valves, giving some loss of cylinder compression. Not sure if MCX is a roller motor or not. But like he said, it would a little harder to start. Wouldn't sound anything like a dead batt. <BR> <BR>Sounds like vapor lock. Should be injected, so it's likely not the issue. Unless your fuel pump has crapped out on ya but it still should turn over just fine.

mhunter 11-12-2009 5:32 AM

Manny <BR>What year, make ,engine, fuel system if you want some answers you have to give some info.

mrm2083 11-12-2009 6:19 AM

It's an 06 rtp-1. Basically the engine has starting problems after it has already been started even if it has only run for a few minutes. For example I start it and it runs fine, turn it off after about 5 minutes and then try to start it up and it won't. I hear the starter turning it but it just doesn't seem like its getting the full amount it needs. I've already had a fuel pump problem so maybe it's that again but whats weird is it starts fine cold so it must have to do with heat. Would a hot starter have more trouble starting? Would a hot cable pass less electricity through? Would a hot fuel pump work less? etc

polarbill 11-12-2009 8:37 AM

Heat does affect how well your systems work but I doubt they would affect you that much right now. What is the temp right now in Florida? Even if it is 90+ it shouldn't affect it that bad after only 5 minutes of running.

wakeitnofakeit 11-16-2009 6:38 PM

Ok this is were I prove how bad I am when it comes to engines or not. Does it happen all the time every time? You actually hear the engine turning over? If so does it sound like it is choking itself out? If it is turning over my guess is fuel. If the boat sits fuel can tend to leak so there may be enough to catch after it as sat for awhile. If not that check everything electrical. Pull the plugs and every other wire. Is the inside connections clean. Look at your starter. There are wires leading of of it that go to a check (no idea what they call it) look a the back is it corosive. There is usualy two of them so look carefully. I had a similiar problem but my old boat would start great and the every now and again just decide not to. We chased it back to a corosive sod joint. Seven bucks at nappa and it ran great.

denverd1 11-17-2009 1:23 PM

Dan, "wow" is all I can say. You're talking about a starter solenoid. And WTF is a sod joint? <BR> <BR>Manny, don't start pulling wires off your engine! How old is your battery? have it tested if more than a year. Could be coming off the charger w/ strong juice then get weak as soon as you crank once. Does the boat ever fire back up??? <BR> <BR>I guess you could check the fuel rail for pressure to rule out vapor lock symptoms. <BR> <BR>more symptoms needed...

polarbill 11-17-2009 2:24 PM

When he said sod joint I am assuming he meant where the lug us crimped to the battery cable. I don't know the exact reason but our shop guy doesn't recommend soldering lugs. He recommends crimping them really good with good shrink tube sealing it.

wakeitnofakeit 11-17-2009 9:55 PM

Like I said not sure what you call it but in most engines there are wires that lead of the starter. Not the one going to the distributor. They are usually small electrical wires that go to a safety circuit. They are usually soddered on. Like a computer board. Soddered gun and wire that you melt. Anyway if it becomes corrosive between them the can short out. My old boat had two of them and it was the second one that was failling. It would always start. Then whenever it felt like it it wouldn't.

chilidog 11-18-2009 9:17 AM

Could be your starter solenoid. My brother has a 67 camaro that had the same issue but the full headers were causing the heat buildup in the starter. went to a mini starter and fixed that problem after 23 standard starters w/lifetime warranty so replaced for free every time. Yes I said 23, we kept track. However a boat with water injected exhaust manifolds should not have this issue. <BR> <BR>I am thinking it may be an ECU problem because sounds like you aren't getting spark if it turns over but will not fire. Maybe warm it up, shut it off, pull a plug and ground it on the motor and have a friend crank it to see if you have spark to the plug. Maybe you are getting a voltage drop somehow that won't let the ecu work right and all power is routing to the starter. i could see a bad battery causing this but you said its new, maybe a bad voltage regulator? <BR> <BR>For 80 bucks you could probably get a new starter in there and see if that helps. or maybe just take it to the boat shop. <BR> <BR>So you start it when cold everything works, then you shut it off and restart and it will turn but not fire, you are dead in the water? how long do you have to wait before it will start up again? We need more info on exactly what goes down, how you remedy it on the water etc. Corrosive cable issues can do different things at different times too. <BR>Were these the same symptoms that got you replacing the fuel pump last time?? <BR> <BR>You could have an air draw in your fuel system that could be burning up your fuel pump, what if there was a clog in the return line? creating more pressure on the pump causing it to get hot and cavitate and then it shuts itself off for safe mode?

psudy 11-18-2009 9:25 AM

Water in the fuel filter? It sits and the water settles, you start it and it gets pulled through? Just a thought.

justintime 11-20-2009 2:04 AM

so it turns over no start? <BR> <BR>you have a vapor lock or air in the fuel lines <BR> <BR>what boat

mrm2083 12-07-2009 2:23 PM

ok I've been playing around with it trying out different things and this is what happens. I tried starting it cold, fires up perfectly, turned it off 30 seconds later, fires up perfectly again. Did that like 3 times, all fine. I then let it run until it reached regular operating temperature, turned it off and back on imediately, started fine. I turned it off again and this time let it sit for about a minute, now it won't start. I figure its definitely not the starter, could it be the fuel pump, I've had problems and had to replace it in the past?

justintime 12-07-2009 2:45 PM

you will need to do fuel pressure checks when cold, in gear, then under load <BR> <BR>i bet you have a vapor lock <BR> <BR>what motor please also and i can send you the manual

mrm2083 12-07-2009 9:31 PM

It's an 06 rtp-1. Justintime: do you know what would cause the vapor lock?

justintime 12-07-2009 9:57 PM

ok 5.7 PFI motor <BR> <BR>you will need to test fuel pressure <BR> <BR>your going to need a fuel pressure gauge and the computer program <BR> <BR>i would check for codes <BR> <BR>got the manuals??? <BR>do you understand EFI motors?

mrm2083 12-07-2009 10:06 PM

I have the manuals, I understand the basics of EFI, as far codes go I don't have the computer program. With the gauge I'm guessing I'll just need to compare the different PSIs and see if there is a drop when it's not starting?

justintime 12-07-2009 10:18 PM

hope your using the factory manuals not some aftermarket crap <BR> <BR>follow the hard starting procedure, it goes step by step

mrm2083 12-07-2009 10:33 PM

I miss understood you, I don't have the service manuals.

justintime 12-08-2009 10:30 AM

well, without the proper manual, your going to be hunting a ghost, i can tell ya that <BR> <BR>email me i will help you out

peter_c 12-08-2009 11:22 AM

Have you tried clear flood mode? That is full throttle and it will not fire the injectors while cranking. This rules out flooding by a leaky injector. <BR> <BR>Then when it is acting up, hit the starter about two to three times not really cranking but letting the engine blip, but do not turn off the key for a few seconds. You should hear the fuel pump run for three seconds. If you do this and it now starts you have a bad check valve in the fuel pump or a fuel pressure regulator issue. A fuel pressure gauge is the real test. A volume test may also be needed. One quart in less than 30 seconds. You have to jump the fuel pump relay to perform a volume test.

mrm2083 12-08-2009 12:23 PM

Ok tested for pressure, when I click the ignition on it it hits 60 and goes back to 0, when I crank the boat it hits 60 and will stay there until the fuel pump stops running after about 2 seconds and goes back to 0. When on it stays at a steady 60. When starting it hot it still hits 60 on the crank, does this rule out a fuel pressure issue?

peter_c 12-08-2009 1:22 PM

It is a fuel pressure issue. The check valve has probably failed. Now you need to determine whether it is the return or inlet side by pinching off the lines IF you can. Do not pinch of anything other than a rubber line. It might take putting a cap on the return line. If you can pinch off the inlet line to the fuel immediately after priming and it stays near 60 psi then the check valve is definitely bad. <BR> <BR>I am not sure where they put the check valve. Often it is part of the fuel pump assembly.

justintime 12-08-2009 1:32 PM

check valves are in there so fuel does not get sucked back down due to pressure differences <BR> <BR>i will email you the manual, it goes step by step <BR> <BR>but if you have a code running, fuel pressure will do that also!!

mrm2083 12-08-2009 2:18 PM

Thanks for the manual, ok so is it definitely a fuel pressure problem? From what you guys are saying it seems to either be A) bad check valve or B) ECM code? Mastercrafts have an in tank pump so I don't know how I'll check the valve, If I had a code running wouldn't I have a service engine light on? I don't have a marine scan tool so I can't run the codes.

mrm2083 12-08-2009 2:33 PM

Another thing, the pressure doesn't hold whether it's starting hot or cold, why does it start fine cold?

jimmy_z 12-08-2009 2:49 PM

What you are getting is vapor lock due to lack of pressure in the fuel line. <BR> <BR>Boiling point of gasoline varies between 100-400F at atmospheric pressure. <BR>When hot and not pressurized the fuel vaporizes in the fuel line causing a hard start or no start condition.

mrm2083 12-09-2009 7:19 AM

I decided to take off the flame arrestor and I think I figured out the problem. When starting up the boat it isn't chocking, I pushed down the little flap to completely closed and now it starts perfectly every time. Does this mean that's my problem? Would that be electronic related?

peter_c 12-09-2009 10:22 AM

Choke? Not on a fuel injected motor. Post a CLEAR picture of said flap.

mrm2083 12-09-2009 11:05 AM

I know it's not a choke but the way to start the engine is "choking" it. The first pic is the way it naturally closes alowing just a bit of air threw, the second is me pushing it completely closed, this is what alows it to start perfectly.

mrm2083 12-09-2009 11:10 AM

normal <BR><a href="http://yfrog.com/j5img0326lj" target="_blank">http://yfrog.com/j5img0326lj</a> <BR> <BR>closed <BR><a href="http://yfrog.com/31img0327jj" target="_blank">http://yfrog.com/31img0327jj</a>

justintime 12-09-2009 1:02 PM

that boat looks like a salt water boat <BR> <BR>you need to plug that motor in!! <BR> <BR>you need to adjust the throttle cable to adjust the throttle plate

mrm2083 12-09-2009 1:28 PM

It is 100 percent a salt water boat, I know it takes it's toll. The boat has an electronic throttle though so Im not sure how you would adjust it. The throttle plate is 100% controlled by an electric mottor, the throttle cable just sends the signal to the ecu.

meathead65 12-09-2009 2:01 PM

Have you run the voltage figures on the throttle position sensor?

justintime 12-09-2009 2:17 PM

i need to read my manual, just to busy right now trying to drain motor blocks because NOR-CAL people would not listen to me about winterizing!!! Going to snow again here tomorrow through Sunday!!!

mrm2083 12-09-2009 5:48 PM

Ok found the problem. I always turn my key to the on position, wait till the systems boot up, and then start it. Well if I just start it without letting it boot then it starts perfect so I'm guessing there is a sender or something that is bad?

justintime 12-09-2009 5:50 PM

sounds like bad key switch <BR>you should be able to turn key on, let pump prime, then start <BR>also relay

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