what is the difference again (from a s-bend to a whirlybird)? Which one would you guys consider more difficult?

s-bend is a raley based move and whirly is tantrum based. You see a lot more people thowing a whirly, so s-bend.. Depends..

whirly is a flip with a 360

A whirlybird is a tantrum with an overhead 360. <BR> <BR>An s-bend is a raley with an overhead 360.

Whirly's have what you would call a weedwacker, which is a two wake overhead 360 (ole's are surface overhead 360's). I don't remember if doing the trick one handed was a requirement, but that's the way I've seen them done. And as others have mentioned, the whirly is a tantrum based move. <BR> <BR>S-bends (raley based) have that two handed backside spin, but the motion isn't the same as a weedwacker, if that makes any sense at all.

Whirlybird = Tantrum w/ overhead backside 360 (generally w/ lead hand on the handle) <BR> <BR>S-Bend = Raley w/ backside 360 (both hands on the handle) <BR> <BR>electricsnow, has anyone done a tantrum w/ a frontside 3?

doesn't ole also apply to two wake spins (ala watson's ole 5)? <BR> <BR>another difference is that one is a mobe (invert with a 360/+ spin), and one isn't. <BR> <BR>joe, someone was claiming a friend of theirs had landed a tantrum with a frontside 3, but so far i haven't seen any evidence of it. how was the rest of the day at elsi? <BR> <BR>(Message edited by deepstructure on April 03, 2004)

The problem is that one person would classify a raley as an invert and the next person won't. But, if you were to look at an official local event scoresheet (INT), raleys are under inverts. So, if that rule applies, then wouldn't an S-Bend be a mobe as well? <BR> <BR>The rest of the day was good! The topic of the day after you left could be seen here! <BR><a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/106911.html?1081036638" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/106911.html?1081036638</a> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by dakid on April 03, 2004)

A "weedwacker" is what happens if you miss on the S-bend. Especially here at the Delta! :-) <BR> <BR>Personally I see a whole lot more people throwing whirlybirds than S-bends.

joe, although raleys may be <i>counted</i> as inverts for competition purposes (as are spins usually), that doesn't make them an invert-based move. by that definition a 720 could be a mobe. <BR> <BR>is a 313 a mobe? <BR> <BR>to me a raley (aside from contest classification needs), is not an invert. you simply don't get upside - even if your legs go up above your head. <BR> <BR>not being one who has been in the sport long, i don't know a lot of the history (as electricsnow can attest to! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>), but i'd heard raley-based moves fell out of favor for awhile and have since started to come back. that seems a pity to me because raley moves seem to be the most unique thing wakeboarding has going for it. <BR> <BR>heck, even motorcross guys do off-axis spins! and flips are exclusive to no sport - but what other sport really has raleys? wakeskaters can't do 'em. it's a unique combination of a move that requires air time, the tug of a rope and a ramp.

Raley-based moves fell out of favor for a few reasons. First of all, once learned most of them are pretty easy. Under the old scoring system, raleys were worth too many points. So back in the day, people would go to competitions, and they might have six of their ten tricks be raleys. It was kind of lame to watch a competition and see someone do an s-bend, switch s-bend, vulcan, and switch vulcan all in a row. Also, if done correctly, everyone's raleys basically look the same. There isn't really any way to add individual style (apart from some grabbed variations, but even most of those look the same if they're done well). <BR> <BR>In my opinion, raleys are an impressive trick for someone who isn't really familiar with the sport. So if you're trying to impress the ladies, it's the way to go. However, I personally don't get much satisfaction from charging in and hucking something. I prefer doing different spins, throwing in different grabs... riding smoothly. And I love watching someone who rides with their own unique style and interpretation. I look at it as more of an art as opposed to a sport, I guess you could say.

Christopher, "ole" is actually a misused term when applied to watson's spins, or erik ruck's "ole mobe" or whatever you want to call it. I suppose it would date way back because one wake over head 3's were called bains, two wake overhead three's were called weedwackers, and surface overhead spins were called ole's. So there are three names for the same trick that are just performed slightly different. Whatever, I suppose. At any rate, ole is just misused nowadays... <BR> <BR>As for whirly's with a frontside 3, I have seen gregg necrason try a tantrum with a frontside 3 (in the vid 24-7, I believe) but he didn't make it. I think as christopher said, someone on the internet was claiming it...I'm sure someone has done it somewhere. <BR> <BR>I was watching an old tour stop...I don't remember if it was from 1997 or 1998, but parks had cut into the wake toeside and performed a toesideback roll type maneuver with a backside overhead 3...kind of like a toeside whirly type deal. People try to say that diesel's or big wurm's are frontside whirly's, but even todd brendel said that it's nothing like that. Anyway, blah blah blah, mneah, mneah, mneah.... <BR> <BR>As for the raley "is it an invert" question, I don't know how they came up with that, but it is definitely an older concept. If you have the video "how to ride a wakeboard" by gravity (I think that's it...I could be wrong) anyway, they group the raley based moves as inverts. That was always confusing to me...perhaps it has to do with body position, i don't know, but it's weird.

wow - great info chef. <BR> <BR>in this thread: <a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/76643.html" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/76643.html</a>, the following is claimed: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>By Greg Hodgin (eccpaint) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:43 pm: <BR> <BR>Matt &amp; Kyle you both are correct. Alex Hamrick threw a tantrum with a late fs 3.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I'm guessin' lots of 'em do Tantrum to Fakies and I'm guessin' throwin' an extra 180 w/ a handle pass wouldn't be that hard for them. But, what I'm actually thinkin' was a Tantrum w/ a simultaneous FS3, like a Whirlybird is a Tantrum w/ a simultaneous BS3. <BR> <BR>As for the TS version, the only way it would be a TS version is if it was a TS backroll w/ a BS3. Diesels and/or Big Worms, aren't they off of Front Rolls? <BR> <BR>Either way, great info once again, electricsnow.

Tyler i dont know about charging in and hucking a raley, ive only landed about 2 so far and they were never hucked, the ones (many ones) i didnt land may have been hucked but the ones i did had as much finesse as any move ive done or seen done including grabs, hell for that matter try one yourself and for a small pinch of flavor make it an oriental or hoochie glide (add your grab) <IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>As far as calling it an invert im sure they put it in that category due to the difficulty level.

I can't do them anymore, but when I was doing them, the Raley is actually a really easy trick. The thing that makes it hard for everyone to learn or even try it is convincing yourself to lay yourself out and that you can bring the board back down. <BR> <BR>Sure, it was hard to learn. Once you get it though, you'll say to yourself, "That's it? That was easy!" <BR> <BR>(Message edited by dakid on April 04, 2004)

Tyler I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone's Raleys don't basically look the same! Look at Shaun Murrays no body does a raley like him or Shapiro.You can catch a glimpse of a video and be like yep that was Murray throwing that raley for sure that guy just goes nuts when he throws one same with Shapiro.

The very first response on this thread (by CDM) answered the question.

Yes joe, you're correct. For whatever reason, some people were saying that either a diesel or a big wurm (I can't remember which..it seems appropriate for both) was a frontside whirly. <BR> <BR>I should clarify that parks attempted this frontside whirly deal, and didn't actually land it ( I don't think it has ever been landed...that's the only one I've seen attempted). But it was what you described--a toeside backroll with an overhead backside three. When you think about it, it seems impossible to do a tantrum with an overhead frontside three...it's MIND boggling!!! <BR> <BR>I don't think raley based maneuvers were categorized as inverts because of difficulty...maybe it's because sometimes your body is past being parallel to the water? Maybe not...I don't know...again, MIND boggling!!!

I'm gonna have to agree with Tyler on this one in terms of both the difficulty and finesse/style issues, and I can attest to the fact that he is absolutely correct in his historical perspective on the issue relating to scoring in competition. Certain riders have won big comps (e.g., 97 Worlds) simply be stringing together a bunch of Raley-based moves (with little or no spinning), and that is one of the things that instigated the backlash and contributed to the eventual overhaul of the scoring system on the pro tour. <BR> <BR>Bob, careful... I hope you won't take this personally, because I have been impressed with the thoughtfulness of some of your posts in the past, but if you have stuck 2 raleys ever then you currently are at the level of intermediate rider. You might want to tread cautiously when engaging somebody with Tyler's skills and style in a debate about the difficulty, techicality, and stylistic aspects of tricks.

ooh, i'm going to disagree with doc oc! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> not about the historical perspective as i wouldn't know, but i'd have to agree with bob, at least in theory... <BR> <BR>first, i'd say your individual skill level has nothing to do with your ability to visually distinguish style when watching riders. im sure there are plenty of armchair wakeboarders that can discern the vagaries of style between the pro boarders much better than i can. <BR> <BR>so although i have much respect for tyler's skills, i would disagree that he's more qualified to say whether shapiro or shaun's raley's look the same as anyone else's. i've certainly noticed a variation in the way raley's are performed. <BR> <BR>second, to me the idea of tricks looking the same applies to ALL tricks. right now there's enough variation in free-ride moves that you see differences. but there are many moves (especially mobes), that look basically the same no matter who is throwing them - <i>especially</i> in competition. <BR> <BR>by saying this i don't mean everything looks the same, im saying i think there's as much potential for variation in raley-based moves as any other. a good example is the bee sting. perhaps the innovation just hasn't been concentrated there yet - once we see as many folks trying to stylize raley-moves as much as with spins in the past few years, then perhaps we'll see more variation.

btw, i completely understand folks referring to the big wurms or diesels as frontside whirlys - although technically not the same, it seems a fair moniker as it's the <i>mirror</i> image. it's done from the opposite side of the wake, instead of being a back invert with a bs rotation, it's a front invert with a fs rotation - and both rotations are overhead. <BR> <BR>and if you want a good look at some, check out higher education vol. II. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by deepstructure on April 05, 2004)

Q. How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop? <BR> <BR>Q. How many wakeworlders does it take to answer a simple question? <BR> <BR>A. The world will never know. <BR>

oh my bad. i thought this was the wakeworld <i>discussion</i> board. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>

ok now, so the info ive seen posted by so many about the raley biting so many people compared with other tricks is false?? Im sure i read that right, does that not add to the difficulty of a trick also, the risk of attempting it?

I personally love the look of raley tricks over a lot of others. Especially Shapiro's Raley to blind I have seen in a few vids. Simply awesome to watch.