What's everyone think about traditional contest rules and divisions? I think this is what's traditionally been done, but what do you think? <BR> <BR>Beginner < 2 inverts/spins <BR>Intermediate: < 4 inverts/spins <BR>Advanced < 6 inverts/spins <BR>Expert Outlaw > 8 <BR> <BR>Down and back, 10 trick max. <BR>2 falls, 3rd you swim. <BR>1 fall outside of course doesn't count. <BR> <BR>Based on difficulty, amplitude, and style. <BR> <BR>I kind of liked the idea of having the top 5 start fresh, go head to head in finals later in the day or the next day, and be allowed 3 falls. I'd also like to see bonus points for style and have unlimited tricks. Cash and trophy prizes? <BR> <BR>Tell us what you think.

Steve, I think you have the bar set a little high in the beginner class. 2 inverts &amp; spins are not beginner tricks. Just my opinion.

Way too high. Here the division and skills that Chris Walker is using for the 2007 NWL events. <BR> <BR>"Novice riders are working on surface tricks, lip slides, one wake jumps. Heel side 2 wake jumps a.k.a H/S w2w are the top tricks, Wildcards - any w2w T/S, and w2w 180's" <BR>"Intermediate (including masters 30-39 &amp; Veterans 40 &amp; over) are working on all grabs, all w2w T/S, all w2w 180's. Wildcards are any one invert or one spin." <BR>"Advanced riders are working on 1 to 4 inverts or spins. Wildcard is 5th invert/spin or any 720 spin or any mobe (combination invert with spin)." <BR>"Outlaw riders are working on 5th inverts/spins, 720's and mobes." <BR> <BR>Riders having previously won or placed in a division should ride at the next level. Wildcards are out of division tricks that the rider is just mastering. Too many wild cards will promote a rider to the next division.

Steve. With the rules set that way, it will be impossible to get true beginners involved. The future of the sport depends on those riders. I think Chris Walker's set up is a much better alternative. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by saroberts70 on January 28, 2007) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by saroberts70 on January 28, 2007)

I respectfully disagree with the NWL divisions. I have yet to meet a rider who could do a 7 and not a mobe. And a rider who has a mobe has 8-10 inverts. Looks to me that the folks in Carolina CWS have it about right with the following format: <BR> <BR>Novice <BR>Grabs, Jumps, 180's...no inverts. <BR>Beginner <BR>One Invert, 360's, Grabs <BR>}Intermediate <BR>Up to 5 inverts and 360's <BR>Advanced <BR>540's, and Up to 8 inverts. <BR>Open <BR>Anything goes, this is why we are giving away $$$ to 1st place.

From the WWA website: <BR> <BR>"VI. Divisions of Competition: <BR> <BR>A. Divisions of competition are broken down into age brackets with the exception of the pro and open divisions. Age as of January 1 of the current year will be used to determine age bracket. The WWA U.S. National and World Championships will operate under the following divisions. <BR>Jr. Boys ages 9 and under <BR>Boys ages 10-13 <BR>Jr. Men ages 14-17 <BR>Men’s I ages 18-24 <BR>Men’s II ages 25-29 <BR>Masters ages 30-39 <BR>Veterans ages 40 and over <BR>Girls ages 13 and under <BR>Jr. Women ages 14-18 <BR>Women ages 19 and over <BR>Open any age (see VIII) <BR>Pro any age <BR> <BR>1. Divisions may be created or merged at the sole discretion of each contest director. <BR>2. All divisions except pro are considered amateur age group competitions. <BR>3. Only the pro division pays cash prizes. <BR>4. Riders can only compete in one division per competition. <BR> <BR>VII. Grass-roots (Amateur) Contests: <BR> <BR>The purpose of grassroots competitions is to encourage greater participation at local and regional wakeboarding events. As competitors in these events may vary greatly in experience levels, the contest director has the option of creating divisions based on ability level rather than age. <BR> <BR>A. Suggested Grassroots divisions: <BR>Novice: No previous contest experience. (Refer to novice trick list.) <BR>Intermediate: At least one contest and can perform no more than three inverts/spins. <BR>Advanced: At least three contests and can perform more than three inverts/spins. <BR> <BR>There will be no grass-roots divisions at the WWA Nationals or WWA Worlds."

I think they suck. <BR> <BR>The best tournament I ever rode was a college event put on by USC. There were heats of 5 guys, top two advance to the final round. 10 minutes, unlimited falls. It was so fun, if you fall it kills your time but if you keep riding you can pack so many tricks in. <BR> <BR>For everyone though you have to have the divisions based on skill level. Its rough when there is a ringer who should be in the division up but keeps themselves down. Come to the Canyon Lake comps, thats how a community event should be run!!

I've seen this last bit of information on the website and am well aware of what INT and WWA does. I like the suggestions but let me clarify my question. <BR> <BR>"What does everyone think the bar should be set at for grass roots or local contests?" <BR> <BR>Beginner = what <BR>Intermediate = what <BR>Advanced and/or Expert = what <BR>Open = (obviously pro/open)

Kevin - I respectfully agree we are saying the same thing. Advanced wild card is 5th invert/spin OR any Mobe OR any 7

Steve - post or pm your email address and I will send you our 16 page guide.

HEAD TO HEAD is the only way to go.

i like everything except beginners dont do 2 inverts they r beginners intermediate should be 2 inverts

NorCal WWA has a good format. <BR>4 passes 3 falls. Each pass is scored separately and then averaged. Works well. <BR> <BR>Northwest Sessions runs a 10 min. 3 falls format, the clock keeps running during falls. <BR> <BR>Andy, I also like the head to head, but in a grass roots contest for all divisions it would take to long, you could do it in Open though.

i like the 5min run no fall limit but since the clock does run during the fall/pickup it equates to about 3 falls maybe three passes .Have a first day ride off top two in each heat advance to next day final 5-6 riders in final max . <BR> <BR>10min wuld be nice but the time would not allow a good full event to get all riders out by dark. <BR> <BR>Beginner/novice 1 wake tricks and grabs ,surface stuff,wave to judge ,but touches etc and then a wildcard two wake trick of a 180 or big grab etc . <BR> <BR>Intermeditate-all basic two wake tricks like 180s and grabs and one big wildcard trick of a basic invert and/or spin .No 5s or advanced inverts of anykind . <BR> <BR>INT2-same as intermediate except two inverts allowed and one wildcard of a advanced invert. <BR> <BR>advanced-5 invert/and or spins combined none over a 540,no mobes,whirlys or tootsieroll type tricks etc . <BR> <BR>expert-8 invert/spin combined nothing over a 720 allowed ,one sbend,tootsie or whirly allowed but no true handlepass Mobes allowed . <BR> <BR>outlaw/open-anything goes in 5mins no Pros allowed .winner take all <BR> <BR>If theres time if any pro is willing to ride in an exhibiton it would be cool for him to do it say the love of the sport and free food and drinks for the day . <BR> <BR>Id keep prize moneys low to discourage sandbaggers maybe some real nice trophies with small cash purse/garb to be had .

I think age divisions should not be restricted in trick level. If you are an old fart in Masters or Veterans, then those divisions should either be divided into different skill levels or just do what you can do and not have to bump out to ride against younger riders just because you can do more advanced tricks. It seems now that a mens novice and veterans are the same.

Jim, From an event organizers stand point there are a lot of divisions. The Scioto Wakefest will have Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Outlaw, Masters, Veterans, Wakeskate, two hydro foil divisions, and four wakesurfing divisions. That’s 13 divisions and 39 trophies! <BR> <BR>If you’re an “old fart” you can ride with the rest of us geezers or you can choose to ride with the young bucks in the Intermediate, Advanced or Outlaw divisions.

hydro foil divisions in a wake contest?

Manny, <BR>Your profile pic is awesome the boat color and the water!!

Surfing and wakeskate too, so?

I haven't been to many contests but I've never seen that included. It just seems like a random thing to have, like a having a waterski contests with a wakeboard contest or something.

We have some hydro foil riders at the Scioto Boat club, one used to ride professionally. For me riding the foil is very humbling, I can barely control the thing for a few seconds. Foil riders get way more air than most wakeboarders, its cool to watch. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bigshow on February 04, 2007)

I like the idea of advancing to the next day. much like a snowboard contest.

Steve, in Colorado (wich I am assuming where the contest will be) this is how we have run them in the past. <BR> <BR>grom- 12 years and under <BR> <BR>novice- no inverts or spins <BR> <BR>intermediate- max one invert and spin <BR> <BR>advanced- max 5 inverts and spins <BR> <BR>outlaw- semi-pro anything goes <BR> <BR>masters- 40+ <BR> <BR>Womens- open <BR> <BR>wakeskate- open <BR> <BR> <BR>2 minute free ride, unlimited falls works well for us. But swim on 3rd fall works too. <BR> <BR>If you make it too competitive people will not come! It's got to be about fun and there has too be a class for everyone.

Great info everyone. Thanks.

according to your rules and divisions, i'm barely a beginner. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

btw the way, the whole age thing doesn't work. you get a lot of sandbaggers in the age divisions. right frew? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

Joe, If I have money to award at an event I would put dollars from highest to lowest as follows: <BR>Outlaw <BR>Advanced <BR>Intermediate <BR>Masters <BR>Veterans <BR>Novices get prize boards, ropes, whatever. <BR> <BR>If you were sandbagging in the veterans division you'd take home an $8.00 trophy, a T-shirt and maybe a few bucks. If you could have placed in the Advanced division you should have done much better. <BR> <BR>For the Scioto Wakefest I expect to have a mix of cash and prizes to award, the total cash value commited so far should be around $2,000. Most of that prize war chest looks to be prizes, not cash. I have a few cash sponsors that haven’t firmed up yet, when they do I’ll UPdate my prize estimate. It’s a lot easier for some smaller sponsors to offer some product rather than cash. I like to see prizes at the lower ranks and cash for you guys and gals that can really ride. <BR> <BR>So if the point of sandbagging in Masters or Veterans is winning valuable cash and prizes, I don’t think that strategy would pay off for my event. It would work if you want a shiny trophy; if you’re old enough for the division and a trophy still floats your boat then you should do it. I see Veterans as dad’s chance to have some fun while the kids are trying to see how good they are. <BR> <BR>If you're in Ohio near the 4th of July <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/412238.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR> <BR>Follow these guys the the Scioto Wakefest <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/412239.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/412240.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/412241.jpg" alt="Upload">

the problem with having age divisions is like i said, sandbaggers. guys that have maybe 2 inverts have to go up against guys that have 6+ inverts/spins. the guys w/ 6+ inverts/spins compete in the age division because they know they'll win, as opposed to actually "competing" w/ guys of their level. the chances of them losing is pretty slim compared to "competing" in their appropriate division. <BR> <BR>i know to most that compete in the masters or veterans divisions do it for fun. call me a brat if you will, but it's not fun losing. that's one of the reasons i don't compete anymore...sandbaggers. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by dakid on February 09, 2007)

Hey Joe what are you talking about when you say you get a "you get a lot of sandbaggers in the age divisions"?

I guess I don't understand. <BR> <BR>We’re not talking about the veterans division, right. I mean if you’re 40 and can knock out every trick in the book I don’t see a problem sending you home with the Veteran first place trophies and other awards. <BR> <BR>How old are both of these guys, both 40, or is one 12? The guy that's 40 has skills, right? <BR> <BR>Let's say that the 40-year old can ride in any division. If he enters the Intermediate division and pulls six inverts, no problem he's booted up to Outlaw. <BR> <BR>Let's say that the 40-year old again enters the Intermediate division, but he's clever and only pulls one invert, but the invert is a thing of beauty, the rest of his W2Ws, 180s, are also pro quality, the invert might be the division winner. The rider can pull expert inverts all day, but only pulls one in the event. That level of deception might work, but I wouldn’t expect that the intermediate prizes are really that great so the 40-year old that can turn out inverts with out fail probably wouldn’t go that low, right? <BR> <BR>Let’s say then that the 40-year old is pretty good, but not Outlaw 1-2-3 good. He’s old enough to enter the Veteran division but the prize sucks and he’s greedy. He’s good enough to show well in the Outlaw division but probably won’t place in the top three. So, to ensure he wins a prize he enters the Advance division. The first place Advanced is maybe $150, worth the deception effort. This guy nails 4 inverts and a wild card 720! This guy probably gets away with it this year. I know who won last year at my event, next year at my event he can enter Outlaw and Veterans, not Advanced, so he only gets away with it once at my event. <BR> <BR>I have to ask how good is the average (above average) 40-year old? If you’re 20 something you’ve got a huge, a huge, advantage. I don’t think there are too many 40-year olds that should ride in the Outlaw division but would scheme to step down to advanced so they can take candy from the babies. Must be talking about the 30-year olds, I can't remember that far back.

kevin, for example, the master's division is for riders 30 and over. the only requirement to ride in the masters division is to be at least 30 years old. most 30yr olds that compete in that division are intermediate riders at best, with 1 or 2 inverts and 1 or 2 spins. in most tournaments, that would be like riding in the intermediate division. now, there are also 30yr olds that compete in the masters division with 5 to 6 inverts and a handful of spins (3s and 5s). with those skills, they should be in the advanced or expert division (in most tourneys). but, they don't enter in the advanced or expert divisions because competition's harder. they have to compete w/ younger guys with the same trick list. so, they compete in the "easier" division, the masters division. it's "almost" a guaranteed win. <BR> <BR>in some tourneys, the masters division has limitations such as invert and spins limits. if the rider can stick 5-6 inverts and several spins, they bump him up to advanced or expert. that's how i think it should be.

Ed please look at my earlier post. You have set the bar too low...bottom line. <BR> <BR>The age vs. level is a separate issue. Personally I think age grouping will progress the sport faster as the national level events have proven. <BR> <BR>However, I get that at a grass roots level age grouping may not work. <BR> <BR>Again, the original reason for my post is that NWL has the bar set too low.

Joe, I do understand your post. But the future is not the 30 plus guys.

I'm not sure that I agree with protecting the skill level at the Masters or Veterans division. If you're a 40 year old novice you can still enter the novice division. <b>What are the Masters and Veterans prizes like at the comps you go to?</b> <BR> <BR>I won the Ohio NWL Veterans division last year. I will not let the fact that there was no one else from Ohio entered in my division tarnish this accomplishment or diminish the absolute perfection of my W2W, with grab. For winning this grass roots event I took home the hardware, that’s a plaque, no cash, no ski rope, no.... No really I suck, and no one else from Ohio over 40 entered. The two other guys that were over 40 were from Indiana, they took overall first and second, I was third, but they were from out of state so I took home the sate trophy. <BR> <BR>If you enter either Masters or Veterans divisions you're giving in to age and swallowing a little pride by not competing with the young pups. There's a local Veteran rider here that routinely places in the WWA Nationals Veteran division, I will never compete at his level but I have a good time. <BR> <BR>Joe, at the National level how good would you allow the Masters and Veterans to be? At a national level competition would you let 30 and up crowd pull any trick in the book? If you let them perform any trick at the National level but not at regional, state, or local level, then where do the unlimited Master and Veterans riders come from to fill the ranks of the division at Nationals?

no, but they are the ones buying the boats.

take gerry nunn for example. he rides in the pro tour. he used to ride in the men's II or something like that (for the "seasoned" rider), but he now rides in the division he should be riding, not one he's qualified for because of his age.

Kevin, I’ve been wakeboarding since 1996, I really enjoy wakeboarding but will probably never reach your beginner level. <BR> <BR>The posted NWL levels, aren’t mine, they were proposed by Chris Walker. The main purpose of the list is to help riders figure out where they should compete, it also gives them something to shoot for. They were reasonable for last years series and will probably do for '07 as well. <BR> <BR>I think there are more Wakeboats out west than in the Midwest. I also suspect that there are more riders and the skill level might be higher out west. So when this list begins to have separation problems I expect the criteria would be slide up the scale.

Joe, it's not me I just put up CWS, I don't even know anyone from that group. And BTW I will not reach the beginner level, so what. <BR> <BR>You say "it also gives them something to shoot for" that is my point it is too low.

So Gerry Nunn would go all out to win a $8 plaque? <BR> <BR>For now it seems to be high enough. Season is another regional difference, hard core riders can eek out an 8-month season, sane folk probably have a 4-month season.

edward, that's exactly my point. he didn't go for the $8 plaque. he had learned a bunch of tricks, and instead of stickin' to mens II division where he'd probably own it all, he joined the pro tour.

I know Gerry a big time rider, but I really don't know his history. Who cares who took home the $8 plaque that you're protecting? <BR> <BR>I still think you're completely wrong. If you've got skills but decide to hang out with the rest of the old folks, then you are allowing up and coming riders a chance to move forward, not hogging the lime light. The youth is the future, Veterans and Masters are for Dad. If Dad happens to be Gerry Nunn so be it, but then I bet junior gets to ride behind a sweet boat. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bigshow on February 09, 2007)

I've put together a few grassroots tourneys and use a bump rule, during sign up and in the riders meeting it is explained that in the eyes of the head judge if you are sandbagging you will be bumped to the appropriate division and your score will be used in the correct division for your riding level. Never had a problem with master / veteran division, at my comps, if their walking after 2 passes their pretty stoked. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

edward, it isn't abour right or wrong. it's a matter of opinion.

We'll OK, you right, not right or wrong, perhaps agreement to disagree. (remember it’s not about right or wrong<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> ) <BR> <BR>The purpose of this thread is along the lines of establishing reasonable competitive grass roots divisions. Addressing you're position that older riders shouldn't be allowed to ride in their age division, well I disagree.

i just don't believe in sandbagging. it's that simple. nothing more, nothing less.

Back in the day I rode a in a comp against my son, I was planning on riding in the old man's division but in the week leading up to the comp there was a lot of trash taking going on at home so on the day of the comp I signed up for the intermediate division to go mono / mono. Alex was 9 and I was 40 something. He did win but I came in a strong 3rd. It must have been my roastbeef grab or was it a slap. Anyway, most fun I ever had in a comp. The point is, in grassroots comps it all about having fun.

randy, to be perfectly honest with you, i have a blast at the comps. the people are great, i get to see old friends and make new ones. then i go out, ride, and know someone else w/ 5-6 inverts is going to win. that's the worst part.

No one wants sandbagging riders. Sandbagging is some how dishonest, possibly with an unearned gain. Riding in your age division can’t be dishonest, earning an $8 plaque provides no real monetary gain. Unearned status would be dishonest, but if your over 40 (or 30) I still don’t see that as dishonest. <BR> <BR>I still don’t see any harm allowing a 40 year old amateur rider, capable of unlimited inverts, to participate in the veteran division. If Gerry Nunn is over 40 and if he were to attend my event, I’d ask him if he wouldn’t mind putting on a show, running a clinic, or judging. <BR> <BR>If you make a significant portion of your living on the professional wakeboard circuit and you enter a grass roots event because you need the trophy and the recognition then you probably need professional help.

Ed, I think we might be saying the same thing. If age is ok in the upper divisions then it would be ok in the lower divisions. There is no such thing as sandbagging. Your age is your age end of story. <BR>Personally, I'm ok with that. <BR>If however a grassroots event wants ability divisions instead, then CWS has got it better than most.

ED,JOE and others talking about sandbaggers. If a sandbagger has the big enough ego to under-state ability at registry, make it past 3 judges and then me without getting called out or bumped, well then I guess thesandbagger gets placement. BUT to get placement, sticking a wildcard trick is pretty much needed. THATS GREAT - Problem solved- That rider gets bumped at NEXT event to a higher level. <BR> <BR>One other thing - at almost every event Im asked about a NEW competitor thats states his ability is on the breakpoint of divisions. I will ask "have you ever done those wildcard tricks in a compition" knowing he will say NO. I will place him in the lower division and hope he places and bumps out. That is what grassroots are about. Its all about having fun and just because he can do 1 or 2 or even 3 wildcard tricks in practice does not mean he can do them cold off the dock. <BR> <BR>The WWA grassroots divisions for example require a rider to compete in an event before moving up to <BR>intermediate. Quote below from WWA 2005 Rule book <BR> <BR>A. Suggested Grassroots divisions: <BR>Novice: No previous contest experience. (Refer to novice trick list.) <BR>Intermediate: At least one contest and can perform no more than three inverts/spins. <BR>Advanced: At least three contests and can perform more than three inverts/spins.

im with Joe on this one,the age only divisions do seem unfair and lopsided ,not much of a competition if theres many skill levels in the same division ,it obvious whos going to win.. <BR> <BR>you are gonna get sandbaggers in the skill only comps but like has been said not enough to matter much and most people are honest and enter the correct division ... <BR> <BR>anyway everybody runs their comps the way they want so good luck..i myself only enter the ones that i can do well in and like the format.However if i dont ride ill still come out to hang out and support the other riders .

I have put on a lot of events and I have to go with Randy on this one... Grassroots events are all about fun! The only time age comes into play is groms and masters. If some one is sandbagging, you bump them up! This is not the pro tour, it is all about growing the sport we love and having a good time! When you make things too complicated and competitive it takes the fun out and no one wants to come back. Remeber why we are wakeboarders guys? Oh yea... because it's fun!