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Let the shaping disasters begin
Haha, After debating on buying or building my wife convinced me to just try my luck at building some boards. So here the journey begins. I built my shaping stand and should be ordering my blanks tomorrow. I gonna go down to Harbor Freight tools and pick up a power planer, spoke shave, sure form, hand planer and some other tid bits. Might look into that counter sink router they have, might come in handy on the fin boxes. Anyways heres a few pics of the stand with my 6'6 ocean board sitting in it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ofIMG_1238.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...0/IMG_1240.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...0/IMG_1239.jpg |
Right on dude, let the foam fly!!!
The shaping stands look great. Have you pinned down your desired board dimesions? Which & how many fins? |
The shape is gonna mimic the board in the pictures 5'0'' with the side step wings and a swallow tail. . Gonna do a thruster but will be road in the twinzer configuration or do the twinzer with the side biters. I need to get some calipers and measure my board and see what the thickness measurements are for a starting point.
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Nice stands! C'mon, build photos of the stands! Dim's and assembly!
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Go for it, it's amazing to ride on board you made!! :)
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@Petr yea I can't wait it's gonna be an adventure I'm sure. I was over at Swaylocks doing some research and read that beginners should stay away from the DRAGON SKIN and SUREFORMS. What you guys that shape think. They say its pretty brutal on EPS. |
So I picked up my assortment of sand paper 40, 80, and 120. 2 hand planes(one small and a medium size) a sure-form even though I read not to use it on EPS and a Spoke plane. Got my egg crate foam sanding pad cut to size. now all I need is some eff'n foam. Still undecided on which power plane to buy.
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Surfoams tend to pull the beads out on cheap EPS. Pukas being the result. You can patch it, but you still end up with those unsightly "holes" if you aren't careful. I'd look for a good solid plane also, one that you can swap a carbide barrel into. The rotating blades, do the "puka" thing, only deep, faster and more prevalent, on EPS. I haven't had any issue with dragon skin - doesn't do the job as well as a 40 grint sand block, though. I'm a big fan of sandpaper and carbide barrel planes on EPS.
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Thanks for the info Jeff. I did a little more homework and read that I can get away with a planer with blades for getting me through the learning curve. If I start shaping more boards I can upgrade to the planers that will except the barrels like you use. amin thing they stressed was not to go to fast or to deep so it doesn't rip. So I went and bought a Ryobi power planer from Home Cheapo. lol. Taking a road trip to Westminster Ca tomorrow to pick up my blanks and some supplies. Its 130.00 dollars to ship the boards and I can drive in my wifes Scion XB for a a fraction of that.
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Yeah, if you can drive to the supply house, you'll save a ton of cash on shipping the stupid oversized blanks. Say Hello to Grant for me. They are really nice folks. Do you have a shop vac? :) If not, can you have someone take a picture of you after you've mowed some EPS, pleaseeeeeeee. :)
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Jeff do you do the spackle treatment or the micro-balloons on your EPS boards? |
Keep us posted. I'm about to try my hand at this too. I cannot afford the board I want, so I plan to make one. My wife and son are not so supportive though. So, I HAVE to show them. They forget so quickly some the the sh@t I have pulled off just by wanting to do it, reading about it and then doing it! WooHoo!
Good luck! |
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In all honesty my wife really wanted me to build instead of buy just cause its cheaper. She won't tell me that but I'm sure thats what it boils down to. But I used to custom paint cars and have done lots of fiberglass work so I have those skills to fall back on. We'll see............. |
@ wakeboardingdad - I have MADE some sh@t although I've never really wanted that. :)
@ hematoma - on a straight EPS blank I use the fast and final lightweight spackle - actually the Ace hardware brand of the same stuff. The microballons and epoxy is really freaking expensive for the purpose. What you're concerned with is that any void in the EPS will allow the resin of your lamination to puddle, creating a hard spot in that void and leaving the glass above it dry and weak. Hard spots in boards tend to create places where board breaks...it doesn't flex like the rest of the board and so just immediately PAST the hard spot gets the focus of any bending movement and eventually a snap. So a quick hit with the spackle, smooths the surface and fills any voids. The external lamination then maintains a pretty uniform resin/glass ratio - which is what you are really concerned with. On my sandwich builds, where the high denisty skin is filled with craters, I place the fiberglass down between the layers DRY. Either side - the EPS core and the HD foam I skim with a resin and talc based filler mixture. The talc fills the porous surface of the HD foam and the resin then absorbs to a uniform depth - creating a uniform flex/stiffness across the entire surface, rather than hard down the middle where a stringer would be or out at the rails. Looking forward to your build! |
Jeff do you thin the spackle with water or do you use acetone or something to that effect, I read that the foam absorbs the water from the thinning process and that could be a factor in peoples boards delaming on them, that and putting to much spackle down.
Also the process should go like this. Once I get the final shape and final sanding I should do the skim coat of spackle then any art work? Or laminate it and do the art work and seal the artwork with a hot coat/gloss coat? What paints do you use? waterbased or acrylics? |
The spackle I get has moisture in it and I just spread it thin with a squeege, no thinning unless it dries out, then I add enough to make it moist again. I don't cover the EPS, just fill the voids between beads. There is so much misinformation on EPS based on old tech. Current expansion processes creates almost closed cell EPS, the OLD processes almost destroyed the home insulation manufacturers because EPS did suck water. That's basically ancient history and currently manufacturer EPS doesn't suck water and the smaller beads/higher density doesn't need a seal coat...Marko foam is a good small bead compressed EPS foam. It machines and finishes really well.
Crappy 3/4 pound density eps still has issues, but the higher density foam isn't really so tempermental. You can paint directly on the foam, or on the lam coat. Water colors on the foam and just about anything on the lam coat. Any styrene in the paint will dissolve the EPS, so pretty much you're down to waterbased through spray equipment - or finger paints! :) directly on foam. The only issue with painting on the lam coat and sealing with a hotcoat is sand thrus. You'll sand the hotcoat to bring the surface smooth and it takes a practiced hand to keep from hitting the lamination...and the artwork. I suck at artwork, but I know that folks who are major artists tend to spray on the foam, before the lamination. But some colors/paints like that color changing paint on cars are going to be sprayed on the lam coat. |
Dude, you're hardcore!!! Love it bro!!!
I'll be in San Diego, so if you venture down from Westminster, give me a shout. I used spackle thinned down with distilled water for my filler coat. Although, I did also order the micro balloons from fiberglass supply.......maybe next time. For the artwork, I used Crayola paint brush pens from hobby lobby ( http://shop.hobbylobby.com/products/...h-pens-119529/ ) FYI - acrylic = water based, in paint terms, same thing. For the planer, I used a cheapie power plane from Harbor Freight. Let me know by 6:00 am tomorrow, and I'll leave it by the front door for you to use. :) |
@jeff thanks for the info, you are a eff'n encyclopedia. I been trollin Swaylocks discussion forum but those cats are REAL technical about explaining stuff. I need just the basics for now and I'll learn as I go lol. To much shizz over there to take in all at once.
@ Scott, DOH I just went and bought a Ryobi. Oh well. Hey how was your day? Did you get rained on? From my place it looked like the backside of the mountain was getting hammered. We are leaving out at 5:30 gonna hit Foam ez and check out Long Beach if we have time we might head down toward San Diego and take the 8 back. I'll give you a holla if we head your way. |
We're going to be on the 10 @ the same time tomorrow. We're planning on heading out around 5:30-6:00 and headed to LA to pickup the girls from Lorrie's parents, then hanging in Hollywood for the day before going to San Diego for the night. We've got an extra room in SD for the night :)
If you're bored on the drive, give me a shout, or a LOUD honk when you blow by the little white EOS...... |
@ Surfdad - That is my biggest fear. I make something that is useless.... BUT it might look nice as a shelf if it rides like .... :)
I had no idea there was such a wealth of knowledge over here about board building. Before talking to another friend, I was just going to watch North Shore one more time... knarly eh? :p |
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@ hematoma - yeah sways folks are truly gearheads, but there is no better place for building and shaping info.
@ wakeboardingdad - I used to have that fear, but I've made so many pieces of crap it's second nature now :) Actually, it feels like a learning process to me. On the path to creating something stellar, you have to fail some - so bring on the failures FAST and EARLY so I can get to the stellar. :) I think every failure I've created I've learned something and hopefully don't repeat it :) so in that context while the resultant board sucked, the process imparted knowledge, which I value. From my experience, most any board you make will ride well enough. Some are truly magic, but none are totally worthless. Well...maybe one exception: |
Mistakes are steps to perfection... you will learn important thing from them, that all knowledge is simply built from mistakes :) So dont be scary and cut that foam :)
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Whew I just got home from our round trip excursion to Cal, I will never and I repeat NEVER take the 8 from San Diego back through El Centro to Yuma and to my house what a BOOTLEG drive. I took my wife and kids down the Pacific Hwy and checked out some local surf spots on through Encanitas to San Diego. Instead of back tracking I took the 405 to the 8 what an abortion that turned out to be. Ok rant over, I got my foam and got the Quad production fin set gonna figure out my measurements and make a template and SHOULD be mowing some foam. Wish me luck lol.
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Be sure to document the process Shane. I can't wait to see the progress.
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Ok, let's get down to what makes this stuff fun. I cut the template it's a 5'0'' quad. I way 220 pounds so this board is being shaped for guys my size. Tail and nose are 1'' and middle is gonna be 2'' . It's 21 1/2'' wide her are some pics of the progress so far.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1281.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1277.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1280.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1283.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1289.jpg |
Where did you pick up that blank? Was there already rocker in the blank??
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http://www.foamez.com/ |
LOL - is the name of the template "The Tanker"? Too funny. Good choice of colors for cutting eps - that way you can EASILY spot all the staticly charged beads that stick to you! :) Loving the look of the outline, looking forward to following along!
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@Jeff. yea it's the tanker lol. Well I have been outside rough shaping and got it planed down, what a eff'n mess! I didn't bother hooking up the vac and I got foam everywhere. Oh well what fun would it be to be so clean. Hahaha. Oh yea the cats at Foam EZ said to tell you whats up.
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This is NOT a pretty visual, so if you have a weak stomach, stop reading now. My wife, Judy, makes me strip down to my underwear in the garage before coming into the house after shaping. :) EPS is miserable stuff for the "cling" effect. Aren't the guys at Foam EZ nice to work with? I like 'em even though they're a tad more expensive.
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Oh man can you say static cling!!!! that stuff sticks to everything within 15ft lol. I had a towl outside with me and was using it to keep the build up down. I will hook the vac up next time. Yea, those guys are a class a outfit. I called them on Tues to make sure they had the blanks instock. Grant went ahead and pulled them aside for me. When I got there he pulled them and sure enough, there was a piece of tape on the board saying to hold for Shane pick-up on Wed. I figured when he told me over the phone that he would pull them it was just lip service. They got my business from now on for sure.
Now lets get to the dirty shaping porn. I roughed in the top rails and worked on the nose, still need to block sand the top and bottom and work on the concave, Jeff does the concave exit out the tail? Here are some pics including my wifes board, Doing a little swallow tail fish type twinnzer for her "The Supa Glide" lol. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1295.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1294.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1293.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1297.jpg |
Most single concave's fade to a V or flat out the back. What you'te trying to do with the concave is flatten the rocker down the middle for speed, leaving the curve of the rocker out at the rails. Speed going straight, and turns on rails. The other thing that concaves do is sort of control water flow. You might read that concaves add extra surface area, but it's less than 1/10 of a % if you do the math, so the effect is minimal, if any. Since it isn't a closed system, you don't really get a venturi effect but what it will do is organize the flow of water down the length of the board while going straight and release water when it's on rail. If you take the concave out the back, the board tends to stick at the tail. A V or flat will give you some lift under your rear foot and then as the water flows from the concave INTO the flat, it distributes chaotically and releases really well.
A single to double tends to give more drive, but reduces that "skaty" feel on the tail. Same issues going out the tail - sticktion if the double exits the tail. BUT it's very dependent upon where the double starts...different effect if it starts in front of the fins, at the fins or behind the fins. |
My board is like a naked woman......I cant quit looking. Hahaha
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AND...the board is looking good!
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Ok let me get this right? So what your really doing is kinda tricking the water into not bunching up infront of the board? If you put the concave in, the water flows right under the board without the rocker eff'n things up?
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Why shape 1 board, when you can do 2.....
Looking good Shane, your going to have those things ready to ride for Thursday |
@ Shane - exactly. Flatter rockers don't push water (as much) so down the middle the concave allows you to achieve that. Boards with more rocker turn more aggressively - the concave leaves the FULL rocker on the rail and allows the board to turn hard, on rail. We are almost always on one rail, so the concave is very effective behind the boat.
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@ Jeff , thanks for the info, I never really payed to much attention to WHY boards had concaves, makes since now that I'm shaping one. This stuff is FUN, I think I'm already addicted.
@ Scott, I can't order my resin til Wed, Saturday would be the earliest I could get my hands on it with it being delivered. Oh well patience will make a better board. |
What are your plans for the epoxy resin?
There's a place on the west side called Sticky Stuff Sales that stocks cloth and resin that I found during my initial research. I didn't feel like driving all the way out there when it came time to order, so I just ordered from Fiberglass Supply. You can order directly from Resin Research, and they are based out of Tucson, so your order will get to you next day. I did that for my second order of resin (didn't order enough the first go round). I have enough resin for your cloth coats in case you get itchy to do some glassing before your order comes in, let me know. |
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I'm working on a logo as we type. Gonna be pretty rad. |
Ok I shaped in the concave and pretty much have the top done maybe a little final sanding with 120. Anyways couple questions for Jeff. In these pics does the concave look ok or does it need to be deeper? I think I read somewhere 1/8th to a 1/4 deep? And these divits in the foam, is that normal and will the spackle cover them? Thanks
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1304.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1305.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1306.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1307.jpg |
That is damn good for a first effort! You should be proud! A solid concave is 1/4", less than that is ok, but 3/16" is too light behind the boat. It's hard to tell, but that looks to be maybe just a smidgeon under 1/4'? I think you're good. This is NOT a criticism, that 'cave is better than I did after a few boards...but in the picture, it looks like the stringer is proud of the foam, which will give you a weird effect. Did you get a spokeshaven? A little tiny hand plane? Run your hand rail to rail on the bottom and see if the stringer is proud, if so, knock the area down with the 'spoke until runnig your hand rail-to-rail feels smooth.
Yeah the pukas are normal for us garage shapers. The professionals use a barrel in the planer or a CNC machine which avoids that. It's mostly cosmetic, but you'll want to fill it in before laminating. If you leave the puka, the epoxy will drain out of your lamination into the crater and give you a weak spot in the glass and a hard spot in the foam. Hit all the pukas with your spackle, after that dries sand then flush, then you're ready for glassing. What fin system did you choose? |
Jeff, thanks for the props! You are right my stringer is proud. I meant to ask about that but forgot. I have a spoke shave and a little hand plane. Thats how I got those little pukas next to the stringer, bad technique with the spoke shave.. Anyways I'll get the stringer in check. We just got back from our dive class so I'm gonna head outside for some shapin fun.
I got the Futures Vector 2 production quad set. This board was shaped for drive and speed............................................I hope lol. |
Got the board shaped enough to put my SPACKLE on. Drying as we speak. Damn this stuff is fun, this thing is gonna be sick, I just hope I get the fin placement right..
@ Jeff you working on anything? |
Spackle is dry and got a little sanded. Here is some more shaping porn.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1317.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1318.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1316.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1319.jpg |
Very nice! Yeah, I'm building but Dave went out of his way to caution me after James started FlyBoy, so I don't share any builds on WW.
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You got someplace you share them at?
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Todays progress.
I finished sanding down the spackle, gave the board a final once over with 120, made sure the rail are uniform and set the fin boxes. Oh I also used Rit dye on the fins they are a nice deep blue, but look purple lol. Paint and glassing this week. Ride it next weekend........if everything goes as planned. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1320.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1321.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1322.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1323.jpg |
Wow, looking good Shane!
How's Sabrina's board coming along? |
Thanks bro, It's sitting patiently in the corner waiting it's turn on the chopping block. ! Lol Hey man thanks for the jig and router. Made it a breeze, I did get a little tear around one box from turning the router on with the bit touching the foam. Epoxy should cover it. You can't really even see it with the box installed.
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The blank looks perfect! I wouldn't worry about the over-run under the box, it'll fill with epoxy like you surmized.
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@ Jeff, Thanks! It's not perfect but its damn close. You do get to a point where you begin to OVER SHAPE trying yo get it perfect lol. I left some "character" in it, after all it is hand shaped. None the less thanks for the props. I gotta keep up with you and ScottAz lol.
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subscribing..
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Todays installment was paint work, I heard thru the grapevine that Krylon H20 paint was used with success on foam surfboards. Well so far so good. It beats the hell outta buying a airbrushing rig. I'll add that to my list next month. Gonna finish off the blue with some detail work with some waterbased pens either Sharpie or Posca. Seal it with some clear acrylic and laminate this baby.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1328.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1329.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1327.jpg |
I thought I posted here yesterday saying that you're making all this headway and I'm not, but I must have have forgot to hit submit! What an inspiration! The paint looks classic! I can't wait to see it completed!
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I got a sneak peak of the unfinished board tonight, and the thing is looking awesome!! http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../smiles_26.gif
I can't wait to see you rippin this board bro!! |
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Shane ,
what kind of clear acrylic did you use to seal paint work , and did it lay down clear or with any yellowish tint |
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Ok now for the good stuff, THE BOARD ROAD LIKE ****!!!!! lol. Yep total piece of crap. I eff'd up on the rails, to much rocker, and maybe fin choice. But it's a learning process so oh well. The board turned out nice though, just rode like crap. You were either in the pocket or not. It took a lot of front foot weight but when you pumped it it did take off just had no cruising ability. Just on or off so top say.
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Well this board is a piece of crap, lol. I eff'd up on the rails for sure, maybe to much rocker. Oh well learning is what it's all about. When you pumped it, it took off but had NO cruise to it, either it was on or off. My next board will have the corrections made to it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1432.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1433.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...s/IMG_1436.jpg |
how much toe in did you have on your fins? and keep tail rocker real low.
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I'm still looking for foam, but that is one reason I am afraid of thrusters. I have two boards designed and my rocker is almost nothing. Especially in the back. Maybe an 1.5 to 1.75. From memory, I recall you cutting your board mostly from the front of the blanks. Perhaps that's what's difficult about using a manufactured board blank. They seem to have way more rocker in those than what is needed for wakesurfing. The chosen blank would have to be pretty flat and the board placement would have to be pretty precise to make the most use of the manufactured rocker. However, I am sure you flattened it out a bunch. So, do you like your new coffee table? :D I'm looking forward to my first "decoration" too.
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Shane
1st - solve most important thing - rocker my first board (4'8" to 20") is at central part almost flat till the end where is small 1/2" rocker, nose rocker is 3 1/2" but that's too much I should change it to 2 1/2". My board is 2" thick and 1 5/8' at tail. Flat rocker is good for speed and behind boat or at small waves we need lot of speed 2nd - use thruster fin setup, quads are verrry tricky, even Jeff (Surfdad) has problems with them, so rather leave it for your next projects when you dial up shape and rocker of your board and you know that shape is working properly. Take care about right placement and angles, maybe you will need bit experiment with right placement. here is some more info about quad setup from Smed http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=620714 good luck |
Shane
1st - solve most important thing - rocker my first board (4'8" to 20") is at central part almost flat till the end where is small 1/2" rocker and I have way more speed than old Landlock or any other factory wakesurf I tested. I must say was very lucky with it so I know I will stick with it. I only must change nose rocker which is 3 1/2" but that's too much so I will change it aprox. to 2 1/2". My board is 2" thick and 1 5/8" at tail. Flat rocker is good for speed and behind boat or at small waves we need lot of speed. With more bended rocker you will get more drive but you will sink deeper in the water an you have to push more water in front of you so you get less speed. That's good for bigger waves at ocean but not for us. We rather need skimboard type rocker - slight on nose than total flat till the end. 2nd - use thruster fin setup, quads are verrry tricky, even Jeff (Surfdad) has problems with them, so rather leave it for your next projects when you dial up shape and rocker of your board and you know that your shape is working properly. Take care about right placement and angles, maybe you will need bit experiment with it. here at my older project thread is some more info about quad setup from Smed. But as I understand every different board maybe needs bit different setup. http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=620714 good luck |
Damn I hate this stupidly short time limit for editing of my post!! :mad::mad::mad:
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