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-   Archive through February 24, 2008 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=551467)
-   -   Who will be the next FLEX competitior? (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=543093)

wakerider111 02-08-2008 10:25 AM

First off i am thinking of the "slingshot style" of flex boards. (Roam is not included) <BR> <BR>First was Slingshot <BR>then Liquid Force jumped in right away with the press <BR>Obrien has the Local (I am actually surprised obrien jumped in before some other companies... but then again, who has ridden it? If anyone has i'd like to know their thoughts (and for the press too?) Does it really perform like a "rebounding flex board" with an eva core? <BR> <BR>I am thinking the next "competitor will be: <BR>1. Hyperlite- especially considering the recent show of different board constructions. maybe there might be some other construction ideas from the ski (HO) side of things will bring inspiration? <BR>2. CWB <BR>3. then maybe Ronix.

ldr 02-08-2008 10:35 AM

Jeremy, <BR> <BR>I know your love for Slingshot abounds, but i think a better question would be "how many days in a row can Jeremy Byrom make at least one slingshot related post?" <BR> <BR>Just giving you a hard time. <BR> <BR>If I had to guess I would say Ronix.

andy_nintzel 02-08-2008 10:37 AM

Hahahahahah. thats funny Bird! <BR> <BR> <BR>I think that everyone will be impressed with this years O'brien Flex line.

wakerider111 02-08-2008 10:57 AM

no prob <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

ttrigo 02-08-2008 11:06 AM

why would the Roam or the Covenant not be considered "flex" boards? this is a serious question by the way.

wakerider111 02-08-2008 11:07 AM

Slingshot posts, <BR>Lake Powell Posts, <BR>and just Wakeboarding in general Posts <BR>...ohh and a few wakekite posts (still have yet to try one) <BR>... yup that's me<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>wherever i feel helpful... or funny... or contributing... need help myself... or... well you get the idea (hopefully i am not found hating on anything or anyone, maybe expressing preferences, but nothing beyond that)

jarrod 02-08-2008 11:13 AM

I still need to ride one. I have to admit, they look difficult to achieve the pop. On the 3 cheeseberger video, House was punching right through the double up instead of getting the snap. Rider error?

wakerider111 02-08-2008 11:21 AM

As the comments have gone it seems the roam and covenant have more of a "wet noodle flex" (disclaimer- I personally have never ridden one, but the comment is prevelent enough that i believe it and trust it... call me foolish or not) but slingshot and liquidforce AND obrien's versions claim more of a flex that REBOUNDS, a stiffer flex for lack of words. <BR>soo the key word i am thinking about is REBOUND <BR> <BR>But hey, there are several companies lacking any kind of flex board period. <BR>Gator does not have one <BR>CWB does not <BR>J-star <BR>and pretty much any other company <BR>soo i guess a seconday question could be opened up to flex in general too <BR> <BR>I was about to include byerly in the no flex board existing list but it is kinda a subbranch of hype. ALSO i have heard the monarch is kind of a flex-noflex hybrid of sorts where the tip and tail flex alot..... <BR>....OOPS <BR>OOPS... <BR> <BR>ok so maybe the list is <BR>1. Slingshot <BR>2. Liquidforce <BR>3.obrien <BR>4. Byerly (Hyperlite)... sorta half way in halfway out?

wakerider111 02-08-2008 11:23 AM

i kinda noticed that too actually rod... <BR>??beats me??

chris_williams 02-08-2008 11:44 AM

Ever since I rode the original roam, I've always wanted a board that has snappy tip and tails and has zero flex between your bindings. That way the middle of the board doesn't bow over the wake when your hitting it hard and loose pop. Another thing that would be cool is to have clicker bindings. That way whenever you feel like it, you could reach down and unclick and do some one footed tricks and click right back in instantly. You'd also need to build boards with concave like a wakeskate to make this work right. The hyperlite parks board was perfect for doing one footers cuz it had a concave top deck. Grip it up, take off your back binding and wear a wakeskate shoe. Check my profile pic. It's older but you'll get the idea.

andy_nintzel 02-08-2008 12:00 PM

J-Rod, <BR> <BR> I noticed that too in the video. Having rode one before I can tell you the pop is a bit odd, it almost seems like it "pops" a micro second later than normal. Very odd feeling, however on rails they are a blast.

wakerider111 02-08-2008 12:01 PM

Chris, thats a pretty funny ,but cool pic. I personally would worry too much about all the possible one-foot-in-one-foot-out injuries doing that. <BR> <BR>thinking again of the roam... i think i remember reading one or two opinions from individuals who gave similar thoughts about the roam as i've seen for slingshot, saying it boosted them higher and such... anyway...

wakerider111 02-08-2008 12:31 PM

Andy, <BR> <BR>You said that you think people will be impressed by the obrien flex line. You also say you have tried a slingshot. <BR>have you tried the obrien ones or seen them in action? <BR>any further comments?

andy_nintzel 02-08-2008 12:55 PM

I didnt say which company I have tried, but yes I have tried some of them. The O'brien FLX line is sick I cannot say much yet but I will keep you all posted, I have to et approval before I start shouting the boards stats. Gotta keep those sponsors happy.

liquidmx 02-08-2008 2:23 PM

I like the idea of the slingshot quick duck adjustment. While riding reach down lessen that duck and get that melon reeeeealllly poked, land, then move back to original setting. They would need to be really accurate and reliable detents though. <BR> <BR>I would also like to see a board or binding with canting to the binding. Something that takes a wide stance and allows the inside of the foot to sit lower than the outside so you would have a more correct knee alignment.

dakid 02-08-2008 2:32 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>By Matthew Bird (ldr) on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 9:35 am: <BR> <BR>Jeremy, <BR> <BR>I know your love for Slingshot abounds, but i think a better question would be "how many days in a row can Jeremy Byrom make at least one slingshot related post?" <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>i didn't even read the rest of the thread, but STAR! <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

txadam 02-08-2008 2:39 PM

Chris Williams, wow dude! That a pretty weird setup with only one binding. So you're 1/2 wakeskater, 1/2 strapper? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> Interesting.

robertr720 02-08-2008 3:51 PM

Matt, as far as I know that is how LF's footbed is designed. It is maybe just not noticeable enough to be functional.

andy_nintzel 02-08-2008 4:09 PM

I like what Chris is saying of the Hybred wakeboard that had a Flexible Tip and tail with a rigid center between your boots.

aliasforaperson 02-09-2008 2:38 AM

Believe it or not I actually heard from a little bird that an entirely new brand is going to be launching at surf expo by some industry heavies. Keep your ears to the tracks on this one, things are going to start getting interesting...FINALLY...

aliasforaperson 02-09-2008 2:53 AM

Im going to get in trouble for posting about this. Duck and cover...

wakerider111 02-09-2008 1:46 PM

Even more than Slingshot, I love the whole rise of Flex (with REBOUND). I am one of those guys that will never go back to a stiff board tip to tail (as many of you know already <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>). If ever in the future i experience a board that i like better than slingshot's then i'll say great! Yea for me, and yea for the industry pushing itself forward, and yea for slingshot to get some competition. This is why i posted this thread and am so impatiently excited about it. But currently i think slingshot has a firm foundation. I will be sad if ever i find i do like another board better, because i will have to move back to a two hole mounting system. Unless, and hopefully others adapt that idea too. Until then Slingshot is king of the flex boards and binding base plates I.M.O.

joshturner 02-09-2008 2:38 PM

Hmm i can't vouch for or against flex boards right now because i have no ridden one but what i can say is that if the trend continues to move toward flex flex boards there are two things that jump out at me. first is that it makes sense to have flew patterns in the boards. Ask any experienced surfer and very few will tell you that they prefer an epoxy composite board over a tradition fiberglass board. the reason? flex patterns. there is little to no flex in epoxy boards. if the surfers do it, it makes sense that flex on the water surface will enhance things. The next thing that comes to mind is the 2 hole vs 4 hole design. with a flex board it makes sense to have a 2 hole design rather than slingshot's 4 hole. and with a ridgid board a 4 hold makes more sense. let me explain. with a flex board the most important thing in ensureing that the board rides as true as i can is to maintain that flex patterns throughout the board. by having a 4 hole mount you are essentially hard fastening the binding to a larger surface area of the board which creates a stiff spot in the flex pattern of the board. I think that if the trend continues down this path the wake companies could learn a lot from burton snowboards. This year burton introduced it's ICS system. snowbaords have always had flex in them and the biggest deturance for good board feel was the fact that there was a large stiff spot in the flex pattern where the baseplates attached to the board. what they did this year was create a single mount binding and channel system. the channel has a very similar flex pattern to the board rather than the 4 hole insterts and the binding essentially has no base to it. what this does is gives the binding the same essential flex pattern as the board which gives unmatched board feel. surfers get better board feel than anyone becuase there are no ridgid spots in the flex pattern. <BR> <BR>if wakebaording is going down the flex route we may as well learn from the people who have been dealing with it all along. just my 2 cents <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.burton.com/Gear/Default.aspx#/tech/tech.swf?techTypeID=4" target="_blank">http://www.burton.com/Gear/Default.aspx#/tech/tech.swf?techTypeID=4</a>

wakerider111 02-09-2008 3:12 PM

Joshua- <BR> <BR>I understand your thinking, but currently (emphasis on currently) 4 holes allows more flex than two hole mounting system (for wakeboards) <BR> <BR>With two hole mounting, the dead zone for rigidity is the width of the base plate of the binding. Some companies have shortened the width of the base plate to about the same as slingshot's. But the bolts reside on the outside, vs the inside so the dead zone is 6 inches or more. also the current design of hole inserts for 2 bolt mounting systems are made in strips vs singly (Excluding slingshot- for 2008 to use traditional boots and preserve max flex) so the dead spot is actually like nearly a foot, parallel in length to the board. CURRENTLY the only way a 4 hole is more ridged than a two hole is horizontally, but only by about 2-3 inches. I also dare say that length wise is MORE important than width... currently that is! <BR> <BR>in summary: <BR>slingshot ridged dead zone = 2"L X 2"W = 4" squared <BR>Other companies = 6"L (1' including mounting strips invisible within the board) X about 1" = 6" squared or 1 foot squared per boot <BR> <BR>HOWEVER: If a system like Burton's is incorporated then i can agree with you completely (as far as i understand it correctly) BUT a baseless binding or a flexible base binding would have to be made too as you said, which currently does not exist for wake. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>side note: <BR>so for the comparison of slingshot boots vs traditional boots on a slingshot board <BR> <BR>slingshot boots = 2" X 2" = 4" sq <BR>traditional boots = about 1" X about 6" = 6" sq because holes are individually set

wakerider111 02-09-2008 3:14 PM

i assume that a burton system has a total of four 1 inch squared ridged points? one for each bolt? would it be safe to say this?

wakerider111 02-09-2008 3:19 PM

or less than 1 inch? (i was exaggerating the bolt size and also giving wiggle room for the inserts within the board... my snow board knowledge is lax

joshturner 02-09-2008 5:02 PM

Yeah essentially a lot would have to fall into place but my aurgument was really not an arguement just my opinon on the way the trend should move. i will agree the the end to end flex patterns are more inportant to maintain. although, the side to side flex patterns are what determine edgehole. essentially they should move towards the burton system in my opinon. there is very little ridgity in the burton system. i would love to see it make its way into flex boards. it just makes sense. the boots essentially become intergrated into the board to create a uniform flex pattern. no rigid spots due to the binding bases. it will be cool to see what happens. i will have to try one of the flex boards.

wakerider111 02-09-2008 6:15 PM

by what you describe it sounds good to me<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

aliasforaperson 02-09-2008 6:55 PM

Well, while LF, Hyperlite and Ronix are all in a pissing match trying to one up eachother, Slingshot and this "rumored" new brand can swoop in behind the scenes and work on "new" stuff as opposed to camouflaging old ideas and selling them as new. I.M.O.

wakemitch 02-09-2008 9:32 PM

quote <BR>I've always wanted a board that has snappy tip and tails and has zero flex between your bindings. That way the middle of the board doesn't bow over the wake when your hitting it hard and loose pop. <BR> <BR>Chris, that is how the liquid force press is. it is stiff between the boots but flexy from the boot to the tip for the reasons you mentioned.

bill 02-11-2008 11:01 AM

i did not dig the slingshot i do not care to ride a roam so im staying with traditional boards until theres a REAL reason to switch <BR> <BR>please do not tell me it lands so much softer because my platinum absolute and transcend from CWB lands softer and pops bigger.. <BR> <BR>why should i have to ride a flex board that needs a lot of sets on it just to get comfortable? <BR> <BR>im not hatin ,just stating my opinion..too each their own

wakerider111 02-11-2008 12:12 PM

Agreed bill, "To each his/her own" <BR> <BR>As excited as i am personally about the introduction and progression of flex there are still a few "traditional" boards i'd like to try. I had a hard time making the final decision to sell an unused marius, because i wanted some cash earlier for my and my wife's first baby (born January 23rd) I knew i could sell it easier if i didnt ride it too. If i get a second chance i wouldn't mind trying a Marius. <BR> <BR>i would like to try <BR>CWB Marius (the rocker pattern intrigues me and the soft landing claims too) <BR>LF Shane (to see how soft it lands) <BR>Obrien Natural (Chevron bottom and shear popularity) <BR>Hyp Murray (a TRUE HYBRID on rocker) <BR>Byerly Monarch (Always have loved the byerly gear, also want to examine the claimed flex in the tails) <BR>Obrien Local and LF Press (for the flex of course)

denverd1 02-11-2008 12:17 PM

Never ridden one, but the physics of it just don't add up for me. <BR> <BR>so is it more about soul turns and carving or pop?

stephan 02-11-2008 3:40 PM

I honestly don't think you will see that many additions to the flex board market. They simply don't sell. It's hard for a company to incorporate a completely new process that only a few people want. LF &amp; Slingshot are able to do it because they have been making these type boards for kiting for years.

chrishopf 02-11-2008 4:39 PM

Hyperlite Sub VI

jarrod 02-11-2008 4:51 PM

Hyperlite Sub VI = the opposite of Flex Board.

wakerider111 02-13-2008 8:17 AM

I agree that the demand for flex boards did not sore to the top, but despite that i want to think that the demand for them is underestimated. I don't know the stats, but i believe demand is on the rise... maybe from a more shallow starting. <BR> <BR>I like to compare it to the closed-toe binding market (humor the comparison even though it is quite different) When closed toe was first introduced (Excluding the subrosa from fultilt back in the late 90's) many were skeptical, including myself(speaking for the bindings and slingshot too). Many said it wouldn't last, even some wake companies, but now every major wake company has at least two or more boots that are closed toe. It started shallow, but the closed toe trend is definitely on the rise. <BR> <BR>The fact that a few pros are using these boards as their main board of choice says a lot for the future of flex. This is another reason i am hesitant to count the roam, because it is mainly designed for fun and rails. All of the slingshot riders use them... ok, maybe slingshot is a biased view point 'cause all it is is flex, but correct me if i am wrong, but mike ennen mainly rides the press? As for Obrien, I assume no one mainly rides the local? <BR> <BR>I have considered the fact that slingshot and liquid force have the easiest time making the boards because of their kite boarding devisions, but this trend doesn't fit Obrien... FORGIVE ME for what i am about to say, Could there be some ideas/tech/constructions from the water skiing industry that could be used to introduce flex boards for CWB, Hyperlite, and Obrien (even though they already have a model) I know we like to keep skiing seperate from wake, maybe there is someone with more skiing industry knowledge that could agree... I am mostly guessing and pondering aloud

jjakober 02-13-2008 9:39 AM

The O'Brien flex line is built completely different then any of the other manufacturers flex lines. The idea didn't come from waterskiing, it came from thinking outside the box. <BR> <BR>jjakober

jealous_soul 02-13-2008 11:48 AM

i didn't see obrien's flex boards on their site, are they not out yet?

jjakober 02-13-2008 12:03 PM

They haven't updated the site to 08 yet<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/sad.gif" border=0>

wakerider111 02-13-2008 1:20 PM

sorry if my comment about opening up the ski industry sounded as if i was saying the existing obrien line was adopting ideas from the ski industry. All i know about the Obrien line is that it is EVA based core and pops late and other limmited info as seen here on WW and in the Wakeboardingmag Buyers Guide. But it still seems a little hush hush......(makes me all the more currious<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>) I was opening the idea for future additions based off influences from ski industries, especially for CWB being as they have no flex board of any kind for the moment. <BR>but standing corrected and emphasizing a point, any company can still think outside the box, this including partnered industries such as kite or ski.

wakerider111 02-13-2008 1:22 PM

doing a quick google search (using "waterski" "flex" and "rebound" as the key words) It seems the use of carbon fiber in the constructions is mentioned the most

jjakober 02-13-2008 1:41 PM

Jeremy, <BR> <BR>No problem man<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> I think this is a good discussion. I also am not sure of the validity of the flex board when it comes to wake riding. It makes sense for rails and stuff, but I don't know about wake? <BR> <BR>Later, <BR>jjakober

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