Help me choose a great surf boat with a good wakeboard wake
 

Thinking of on of these three:

Axis A22
MB sports F/21 or b52 widebody OR
Sanger v237

Wife has the upgrade bug so need to strike fast.

Does she have a sister?

she does... but a nonboater... :(

Some rationale for the above suggestions / considerations:

I am generally a fan of the simpler boats. Don't need fancy electronic gizmos.

Axis intrigues me because of the price, malibu lineage, and well regarded wake.

MB interests me because of the quick ballast setup. We surf goofy and regular and the ability to switch quickly would be HUGE. The freeboard on the MBs also seems to provide a much bigger safety margin that our vride.

Sanger... I've heard the wave is good (factory though or does it NEED additional weight?), the wake is good, and the kicker is that I have a local dealer. MB and Axis dealers are over 2 hours away from me.

Sanger great surf boat. You will need additional weight. Total in back locker about 1300 pounds plus stock front.

The MB F21 has my favorite wakeskate/wakeboard wake ever. It has such a great shape. The surf wake leaves much to be desired. You can make it super long and firm, but I cant clean up the wash off the lip. The wash makes it impossible for me to do airs. If the lip was clean it would be one of my favorites.

The sanger 237 has an great surf wake, but I havent heard about the wakeboard wake.
The Axis has an amazing wakeboard wake from what Ive heard/seen, but I have not seen a good surf wake out of it. The guys that post pics of there axis surf wakes talk it up, but they dont look too clean. I have not ridden an axis wake or surf

also,
If you want a decent surf wake you need additional ballast. Even great surf boats like the Supreme V226 and Tige Rz2 are nothing to write home about if you are just talking stock.

i've been searching alot myself. I can tell you that Fit and Finish the MB is gonna be like buying an $75k boat from what im reading/seeing, check the site out for all the standard options.

i dont know much about the sanger, but the Axis for sure throws a sick wakeboard wake, but surf wake i think MB has the edge. Axis will be a "bigger" boat but the mb will be more plush.

i will be demoing these boats eventually, another one on my radar is the Supra 21v

The MB has tons of room for a 21' boat. Tons of seating and huge amounts of storage. You can fit a 1100lbs sac in the back locker and still have room.

To be honest, from what I have seen in pics only, the Sanger is by far the better surf boat. However, like others have said, I have not seen much on wakeboard wake. I really wish they could figure out how to clean up the surf wake on an MB 23ft Widebody because it looks like such a nice boat. Everybody knows the Axis has a great wakeboard wake and the only nice surf wake I have seen was a guy that removed the swim deck. (nice clean wake but not nearly what you get on the main surf boats).

IMO: the best surf/wakeboard boats are going to be the 22-23ft (Centurion Avy/Enzo 230, Tige RZ2/VE, SAN 210/230, Bu WS 23", Supreme 226, MC X25, etc). I would expand my search or look at used boats.

jkw, i totally forgot about the Malibu LSV. Those boats have an amazing wakeboard wake and a great surf wake. I am not a fan of the Supreme and Tige wakeboard wakes. The Avalance has an ok wakeboard wake, but it has no shape. It is like a wedge ramp instead of a kicker. I have wakeboarded behind an enzo.

Kyle Cameron who is now a pro cable rider touring the world claims the 247 is his favorite wake for wake boarding. Kyle spent two endless summers teaching me how to ride. Therefore he knows the wake well. Full ballast and full wedge were his pleasure. He gets more air on an OHH than anyone I have ever seen. Wheelhouse does know the 247 can stretch the budget. But when it comes to down to it the additional coin spent and length bought are well worth it. I miss riding with Kyle. My body could not handle the punishment so I turned to riding the endless wave.

What makes you think that the B52 TWB 23 doesn't have a clean surf wake?

That's crazy talk right there.

But then again, it's the internet/forums and all kinds of silly shiat gets presented as "fact."

If the OP is looking at a 23' Sanger then he should also test drive/ride a 23 MB so he can make an informed and intelligent choice.

I have an Sanger V215. The wakeboard wake is great. So is the surf wake. I would say the Sanger does not excell at either, both are excellent when weighted correctly. My vote is for the Sanger, but I do not think you can go wrong with any boat as long as u are on the water.

thanks guys, good suggestions, all. The 23' MB is now firmly planted on the radar. The LSV and 247 are just too far up the budget to make sense right now. I'm not financing, so the budget is what it is. Must stay under $60K... hopefully well under.

Not bashing the boat and I am not saying it cant be done. I actually think it should be pretty easy to set that boat up. If you have vid/pics would love to see them. Looks like a great boat, just never seen pics/video of a clean wave on the port side.

Brand new Sanger V237 for under 60,000.

Hmmm...

Two pics near the end of this thread:

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...37#post1694137

Cipher,
that wave is the real deal !
My local dealership has a 2012 23' b52 arriving on a few weeks and I'm at the top of the list for a demo. Thanks.

I have a 2011 Axis A22 and the wakeboard wake is stupid big when slammed. Another thing I love about the Axis is how clean the wake can be at slow speeds for beginners or learning a new trick. However, the surf wake leaves too much to be desired with the platform on. The platform easily cuts the power or push of the wake by half because of how its shape effects the shape of the wake. I know a couple members here and on the Axis forum have gave specific weighting instructions of weighting the A22 to avoid much of the platform cutting the wake, however, doing so it cuts the size and push of the wake to where surfing it is not that fun especially if you're an average weight guy. We take our platform off when we surf on weekday evenings only. The surf wake is much much better. Almost twice the size, length, and the pocket stretches out nicely. It's not a surf boat for sure but IF you really want to surf and wakeboard, the A22 is not going to be your boat without taking the platform off. It's just me and my girl so its no big deal not having the platform on the boat and getting in and out of the boat without it is easy (some have asked how do you get back in). Here's a video from last Wednesday evening surfing without the platform. Sorry, the video is small...I'm not an iphone geek so I didn't know to turn my iphone sideways to record IF i want to upload to Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukZeiMiz-og

Thats a very nice surf wake. Did not see those pics. Like I said, I thought it should be easily done.

Test drive, test drive, test drive...

Stock ballast (filled in 60 seconds), 4 adults, one teen, two 50 pound groms. Swim platform attached.

dang it cipher, I was hoping you'd say the surf wake sucked stock. That looks really good. How's the push / pocket for grownups?

It's sufficient. We need to sack that side sometime but all of us regular folks discriminate against the goofies...

Cipher...thanks for the heads up, did not even look at the old thread, the 23 is very clean and I am stoked on getting one, my F21 is great but just not as clean but it is super easy almost stock 60 secs easy, hmmmm ? ...attention all shopers...blue light special on Drew's F21 for the next week...hahaha :)

Slapped together some video of us hacks on Sunday, from a number of angles, that should give folks a taste of the regular side of the TWB 23 with some added weight on top of the stock ballast.

No love for the 210 Nautique ??? :confused:

[QUOTE=Cipher;1695825]Slapped together some video of us hacks on Sunday, from a number of angles, that should give folks a taste of the regular side of the TWB 23 with some added weight on top of the stock ballast.

Cipher,
PM sent....drop me a line when you have a chance.
Thanks !

looks good, thanks for sharing !

Cipher what was the weight setup on the vid?

My biggest issue is that we'd like to split time between goofy, regular, and wakeboarding, so the more I can do with factory ballast (especially as fast as the MB is to change), the better.

centurion avalanche is probably one of my favorite wakeboarding wakes, and the surf wake is rediculously large and long

Both stock ballast tanks full
750 sack hidden in the rear locker
300 tube sack hidden under the seats
200 lb lead just forward of that, next to the batteries
600ish lbs in the front in a hidden V sack

175 pound driver
150 lbs of kids in the front
2 115 pounders and 150 pounds of kids on the surf side.

We use two Tsunamis so the kids get a short swim break while we fill.

interesting... why don't you leave the non-surf side empty?

Because the wake is better when the hull has been sunk deeper in the water. More water is being displaced.

@ Cipher....do you have a wake plate ? If so do you use it for surfing? On my 2012 F21 we tweek the goofy side with it, I have not found it helpful on the reg side...yet

Yes to the wake plate. No to using it while surfing. It doesn't help either side in my experience.

after all of those great pics from cipher, and selling my boat over the weekend in a record setting 90 minutes after I posted it on Craigslist, we pulled the trigger this morning on a 2011 MB Sports TWB 23.

Thanks all for the great suggestions!

Nice job on the sell. Going to have to post some pictures of both sides of that wake.

It was one of those situations where I didn't have to sell (and wasn't sure I even wanted to) and a buyer showed up instantly.

Will post pics for sure. We won't be riding heavy much, though, but to the extent we do it'll probably be on the goofy side.

Pictures of both sides of tha wake have already been posted.

My neighbor just got a 2012 F21.
In addition to loaded stock ballast on the surfside, we've been adding 400 lbs in the surfside locker, 400 under the surfseats and an 800lb bag up front in the center bow walkway.

Wave is tall & long with lots of push - I agree with Mitch's observation that there tends to be a lot of spray towards the crest but it cleans up significantly with the trim up fully. The spray is awful otherwise and sends water bullets into the eyes.

We're still playing with the setup but I'm very impressed with what I've seen thus far (as long as the trim is up)

Probably means that deck isn't low enough to block that wash coming off of the trim tab. Try looking at something like Duffy's "mud flap".

Ragboy,
you may be right. The deck on the MB is very high in relation to many other boats I've surfed.

Of course I am. ;-) JK, I have never been on one of those boats. Many people think that getting the deck up and outta the way is helpful for the surf wake, but it is not. In October of 2008 RJ and I did a bunch of experimenting. The first thing we did, was remove the deck and see what it did. The wash was horrible. There was this rooster tale coming off of the TAPS/Trim tab that was nuts. The deck needs to be low enough to block all of that, but high enough or smooth enough to not cut into the wake. We created an aluminum deck with cut corners and perfectly smooth on the bottom. Worked beautifully.

I have been on other boats, where they angle the deck UP or raise it up in order to make a better surf wake, it has the opposite effect.

Duffy's mudflap looks like a very cheap way of resolving this, although I have never tried since I don't have a boat with this problem.

Sanger does a nice job with this, on their 237 surf edition with surf tabs, the deck was cut on the corners and perfectly smooth underneath. The smoothness creates zero turbulence for the wake.

My wave doesn't touch the deck at all. I think MB's have lots of potential with added weight. Nice deep V- hulls.

On our Ve, it just touches along the corner, but not much. but it keeps that rooster out of your face, that's for sure.

Yet you still need to comment about how the swim deck affects those wakes. That's weird.


Before anyone lends any credibility to your sweeping generalization, which is based upon limited experience with different hulls, they might want to consider some facts which contradict your claims.

Boat #1:

The original brackets broke (design flaw) and the replacement brackets raised the swim deck 1 1/2".

The surf wake improved because the side of the swim deck was no longer cutting into the wake.

No taps or wake plate.

Boat #2:

The stock swim deck is very high, there is no discernible rooster from the wake plate and it is not necessary to lower the swim deck to solve the problems that you describe having with your Tige.

These are facts, based on surfing behind these boats, as opposed to idle conjecture based upon what you "think" (I use that term very loosely) would happen.

As always, rational readers will take any pronouncements from ragboi with a huge grain of salt. Or a block, just to be safe.

Oh yeah, since ragboi is so fond of picture analysis, here are a few to put through the dweeb-o-meter:


So, yes, on some boats getting the swim deck up and out of the way is helpful for the surf wake, despite your inane claims to the contrary.

With added weight does the deck cut in?

Every boat is different, but if he is having a problem with "bullets to the face", the deck may be too high.

This quote:

Many people think that getting the deck up and outta the way is helpful for the surf wake, but it is not.

Should have been qualified. What I meant was I have seen people move their decks up to worse results.

The second pic shows how much the swim deck cuts into the wake with the following weight:

Stock ballast full (1150 pounds per side, 2300 pounds total)
750 pounds hidden in the rear locker
350 pounds hidden under the port seat
250 pounds (lead) in the forward portion of the cabin, next to the batteries hidden under the port seat)
600 pounds hidden in the front via a V fatsac

190 pound driver on the starboard side.
2 115 pounders + 1 100 pounder +1 90 pounder in the cockpit on the port side.
1 110 pounder in the nose on the port side.

and 13.67893428 pounds of beverages an melted ice in the cooler.

I would expect that deck to cut in more than it already is once you add the weight you're inevitably going to start adding one or two seasons down the road. I don't think it'll be too troublesome though with those rounded edges.

My old boat had a problem with cutting in, but that platform was quite a bit bigger than yours.

**edit** Your last post beat mine.
You got a good amount of weight in there already. So I would expect that platform to cut in more once you stop filling the non-surf side locker... Gotta do it, man.

Don't worry Ragboy Cipher is all knowing if you don't believe me just ask him.;)Whatever anyone else knows is wrong,unless it's the same as his OPINION.:pYou know what they say about opinions.They are just like" Ciphers".Every one has one and most of them are not the same as "CIPHERS".:rolleyes::D:D

Who are you replying to?

Should've made that clearer, was replying to your last picture

Thanks for checking in "Tige freak"!

Please address the facts that are being discussed, as opposed to the fantasies that you've concocted (no pun intended) to make you feel better about yourself.

Now, let's get back to discussing how swim deck height affect's a surf wake...

Ragboi has claimed that getting a swim deck up out of the way does not help a surf wake.

He also claims that a swim deck needs to be low enough to block the rooster coming off a wakeplate/taps.

I'ves hared my experience that directly contradicts his claims.

What do you have to offer to the discussion? (posting more goofy pictures of you and your boat does not count)

p.s. I'm discussing facts, not opinions. You should find a grown up that can explain the difference to you.

Ok.

I don't understand how you got to "once you add the weight you're inevitably going to start adding one or two seasons down the road" though.

I've been running pretty much the same added weight (2,000 pounds on top of the stock 2,000-2,300 pound ballast) for more than five years.

That's a total of 4,000 pounds + on top of the dry boat weight of 4,000 +/- pounds...

Ya I had to edit my post, I was writing it as you posted up your weighting method. You weight your boat differently than I'm sure most would suggest. I would take the weight out of that non-surf side and see what results you get.

Justsomeguy your back. How long before Dave kicks you off again.

Cipher I think what taft meant to say was your deck will likely cut in more if you only filled one side vs. both as in your current set up.

How long does it take to fill all those sacs man, don't BS me? Custom ballast is quick, I dig this... but filling those sacs with pumps kinda blows doesn't it?

It's not as good. It's an easy test since the the stock ballast is a gravity drain and empties in 60 seconds.

What many folks don't seem to understand is that on many boats the best surf wake is not just a function of leaning the boat, it's a matter of how deep you sink the entire hull, along with a bias to whichever side you are surfing.

The deeper the entire hull sinks, the more water is displaced, the bigger the surf wake is.

See my previous post regarding the size/quality of the wake with the starboard side empty. It's not as good.

Filling those sacs with pumps is a half a beer/medium duration swim break for the kids. I have two Tsumani pumps. It's roughly ten minutes. Not a big deal for us.

I wonder how my boat would react with both stock sides filled and then custom sacs only filled on surf side? There is merit to your thought of getting the hull deeper in the water for more displacement. 2012 RZ2 here.... anyone try that???

Hi lardo! I'm always amused when your pictures are posted with your enormous gut hanging out below your life jacket. You're like a scary, always pregnant, fat lady from the circus.

Yikes!

p.s. "your" is a possessive case of "you." If you didn't want to appear dimwitted once again you should really have used "you're" which is a contraction of "you are" and is a proper use of the language.

p.p.s Dave can kick off a user name but he can't prevent people from posting. Especially people who point out idiocy like you and ragboi must continually post.

That's strange the wave is worse. Many people here understand how to get the best waves out of their boats. The threads about them here are endless. Maybe that MB has some freak hall, but putting weight along the mid-line of the boat is usually as far as you want to go towards that opposite side.

Cipher, dude... why do you have to be such a dick bro?

There is no way you would say any of that stuff to someone's face so why do it on here?
Gotta chill man.

I have had the same experience with a 2005 B52 V23 and a 2011 B52 TWB 23. The hulls are very different.

I have also had the same experience with my buddy's MC X15, which is very different than the MB hulls.

word

If he doesn't respect the things Ragboy and Dennis have to say then there's really no point in this discussion.

Sorry, you're mistaken.

I am much more irreverent in person so lardo would have gotten the same treatment in person, along with a smile...

I am plenty "chill" dood. It's hard not to be chill when you're laughing so hard....

You don't seem very chill tough guy......
http://i54.tinypic.com/i6awli.jpg

How did you get Cipher's picture J D .It looks just like him,only lighter.;)And much,much smarter.:D

I don't respect Dennis because in the past he's proven to be a chicken little.

Ragboi is a poseur/groupie who cannot wakesurf due to his size, yet he is always ready to offer his opinion on how much push wakes have, how different boards perform, how different boats perform, etc. All of this coming from a guy who can't even imagine what it feels like to get into the pocket!

When confronted with his poseurdom he will fall back on the trite "my family has fun" defense, as if other folk's families (who all wakesurf, instead of dad just wallowing around in the boat) don't have "fun" like ragboi's allegedly does. It's exceedingly silly.

I'll continue to stick to the facts, based upon my limited experience of six years of wakesurfing (as in actually riding behind a boat)...

Well said Cipher!
That certainly justifies you personally attacking people at will, carry on nimrod!

jdhart73, dude... why do you have to be such a dick bro?

There is no way you would say any of that stuff to someone's face so why do it on here?
Gotta chill man.

I don't pay attention to "CIPHER' unless i step in it .Then i just scrape it off in the grass.

I should chill shouldn't I, this has gotten carried away!!.. oh my!!

Cipher,
This weekend we'll try filling both stock tanks as you suggest, then adding the extra weight to the surfside. We haven't tried that yet. We did try adding 20% weight to the nonsurf stock ballast but didn't like the results.

Looks like things got carried away last night after I signed off.....

As for the "bullets to the face" thing - as I stated, it resolves with the trim tab up, so not a big deal IMO.

Skipped the trash talking. I respect adding comments and experience about your particular boat. We seem to forget all the differences even the same boat model can have. From the wise words of Shrek: "couldn't we all just settle this over a Pint?"

On topic: biggest spray deflector for me was changing my wakeplate from 6" extended from the boat to 14". Makes the wash roll down the wake farther back. Duffy's WakeFlap showed success but I'm good with what I got. Wish Duffy would have used a 'Back Off' or 'Haulin Azz' mud flap off a truck haha.

The swimdeck wave cutin is different for every boat I've seen. I got cutin but not a big issue to justify a mod or removing the deck.

Oh and somebody on the CentCrew added a 'Ski Fin' on the bottom of their wakeplate and cleared up a bunch of turbulance on the face/top of the wave. I think we'll be seeing more of this mod. It was sweet

Joe B,
Got a pix or link to that ski fin? I'm not familiar with that....