I'm in the planning stages of my ballast system. I have my fatsacs, but looking to see which way to go from here. What are the pros/cons of each system. Has anyone had both? Which do you prefer?

I'm a noob but some of the basic pros/cons are: <BR> <BR>Impeller <BR>- Can reverse flow so less pumps needed <BR>- higher flow rates? <BR>- cost more <BR>- Can easily be damaged running dry and even the run dry protected ones only can be run that way for a really short period of time (seconds) <BR>- Can get replacement parts and fix problems w/o buying new pump <BR> <BR>Aerator <BR>- Can be run dry <BR>- Directional so may need twice the pumps <BR>- Can't self prime. Have to install below water line for fill and bottom of sack for drain <BR>- Cheaper

I've got an aerator system in my boat that I've been happy with. 4 pumps, 2 fill 2 drain. 3 bags. front: left and right, one rear bag. <BR> <BR>To add to Chad's list: <BR>Impeller pumps are considerably slower flow rates that aerators. <BR> <BR>Aerator pumps can take new pump cartridges if needed. <BR> <BR>If designed properly, aerator systems can be flawless systems and are generally faster. Impeller is pretty foolproof (except for run-dry)so drill 1 hole, run a few wires and drop it in.

I have always used aerator. Faster, cheaper, and don't burn up if run dry. I like a system where you don't have to think. There are plenty of other things to watch out for! That's why all the systems I've built have had an overflow path instead of having to watch the bag or anything hokey like that. If you forget to turn a pump off, it just overflows out the side indefinitely. <BR> <BR>Danny

Here is what I've got in my head. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/645306.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR> <BR>Not shown are the check valves on the vents. <BR> <BR>I plan on having everything controlled by PLC with a 6" touch screen mounted between the throttle and the dash.

You can get the bow integrated sack for the front so you will only need one fill and vent line and get rid of some pumps or switches. Is that 370lb sack just going to be sitting on the floor? Personally I wouldn't worry about plumbing that.

The 370lb sac is in the ski locker. The 550lb is in the walkway. I debated wither on not to plumb it. I have no clue how I will run the hoses to it and it not look like trash. I may just have to resort to filling one sac by hand. I guess I should keep a spare pump in the boat anyhow. Plus, I'll have another 550 to set in the port seat to surf. <BR> <BR>On the bow sac, that was the original plan, but I was worried about such an irregular shaped bag not holding up as well.

Dang, going all fancy with the touch screen and logic control! Nice diagram. HAHA, just checked - sure enough, you are an engineer. I had a feeling. I am, too. <BR> <BR>To be honest, I would probably keep it more simple (i.e. no touchscreen or programmable logic). Simplicity is better. Things tend to get screwed up in boats and just quit working. <BR> <BR>That said, are you planning any overflow, or is the bag going to vent into the boat when it is full? What are the items toward the rear of the boat? 2 pumps, 4 pumps? I can't quite tell. Looks like the opposing triangles are valves (electronically controlled?) Those might severely limit the flow rate of your system. <BR> <BR>Everyone's different and the end goal is different for everybody. Good luck! <BR> <BR>Danny

Jon, <BR> <BR>Regarding the front bow sac, for a simpler solution, you could custom make a tank that goes in the walkway and then up onto where the seats would be (remove them). Of course, you lose seating in the front, but it's much simpler, you can fit more weight, easier to plumb in, no bag lying around. Definitely not a solution for everybody (actually probably not for most), but it works for me as I never have anybody up there anyway... <BR> <BR>I attached a couple pics of the fitup from my '02 Malibu VLX. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/645312.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/645313.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR> <BR>Danny

I disagree with the flow rate issue of aerator versus impeller pumps. I have a system that uses both pumps, the impeller to fill and aerator to empty. It takes almost twice as long for mine to empty as to fill. I am using the Johnson ballast pumps and NOT the Jabsco. I previously used Jabsco and found them to be less reliable and slower than the Johnson. <BR> <BR>I love the fast fill up because we wakesurf behind my boat a lot and I have friends who are both regular and goofy. I find it easy to switch sides quickly. When the one side is full we can begin if if the other is not empty.(I continue to empty while riding) <BR> <BR>the reason I have a two pump system is because i had reversing issues with the Jabsco. I do not know how well the Johnson would work, but sincve the system is in place, I felt there was no need to change how I empty the sacs.

Danny that looks awesome <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

Hey man, like I said, not for everyone. I've been both ways, and I actually like this a hell of a lot better than bags flying around, water under the bags, etc. It was dead space as far as I was concerned. And it can always be taken out so you'd never know it was there except for one small hole which could be plugged nicely. <BR> <BR>Danny

^^^Thats what she said!

Haha, I said "plugged". That never sounds good...

OK, maybe I am making things to complicated. At first I thought I would want the control to be able to fill each bag individually, but maybe that is unnecessary. <BR> <BR>Still the debate is on on aerator vs impeller.

The Attwood tsunami is rated at 20 gpm but as soon as you drop the hose size down to 1" then to 3/4" into the bag that cuts the gph in half then you have to calculate how much psi you build up by going through 2 to 3 feet of head. Then it goes down again. They you need to account for any check valves because if they are spring loaded it cuts it down even more because that builds pressure too. <BR> <BR> <BR>The Johnson (12 gpm) and Jabsco (9 gpm) pumps are threaded for 1/2" male fittings and have 1" hose barbs so the hose will be letting the pumps pump to their full potential. And the ¾” fitting for the bag wont slow it down any either because its pumping out of ½” ports. <BR> <BR>You can see the ratings for head and psi at these websites. <BR> <BR>Jabsco ballast puppy 18220-1121 <a href="http://www.jabsco.com/files/18220_ballast_puppy.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.jabsco.com/files/18220_ballast_puppy.pdf</a> <BR> <BR>Johnson ultra ballast pump F4B-11 or 10-24690-01same ratings as F4B-19 <a href="http://www.johnson-pump.com/JPMarine/products/curves/DC%20pump%20curve.swf" target="_blank">http://www.johnson-pump.com/JPMarine/products/curves/DC%20pump%20curve.swf</a> <BR> <BR>Attwood pumps all three. <a href="http://www.attwoodmarine.com/products/Install_Instructions/69391-A%20Tsunami%20Aerator%20ENG.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.attwoodmarine.com/products/Install_Instructions/69391-A%20Tsunami%20Aerator%20ENG.pdf</a>

i think that the johnson pumps is the best one and you can get it at boatfix.com for 189.99 but it doesnt come with switches like the ballast puppy.

Dennis, 1200 gph vs 540. Not much of an arguement there... There are lots of different aerators size so that my be throwing you off. <BR> <BR>Jacob, To each their own, but I bought 4 rule 1100 of $90 shipped to my door. I assume you're talking about the thru-hull to the sac as the head? <BR>not really sure what you're saying there....

head is how many feet it has to pump the water up into the bags. the pump is located on the bottom of the boat you could have 3 to 4 feet that the pump has to pump up into the bag. the atwood 1200 jumps down to 900 gpm at 3 feet of head and that is rated at 1-1/8" hose you would have the same problems with the rule pump that you have Nacho. <BR> <BR>all pumps do this the johnson will be 10 gph at around 5 feet of head its just that the aerators lose a lot more gpm then the impeller pumps do <BR> <BR>depending on how close the pumps are to the bag and how far they pump the aerator pumps might be the best thing plus the price is way better for aerator pumps <BR> <BR>2x attwood 1200 $100.00 <BR>johnson $190.00

I think most if not all of the pros and cons have been covered. If it were my choice, I'd go with aerator pumps. I've had two boats with aerator and I have a buddy that put impeller pumps in his boat. It's a pain to have to pay attention to his bags draining every time out. He's also had issues with the reversing pumps not wanting to drain. He claims the impellars are a pain to swap out of the pumps if you do burn one up and they aren't cheap to buy either. <BR> <BR>The aerators are much cheaper and work just as good. And if drilling a couple extra holes in your boat is the issue, you should probably be paying someone to install the system anyhow. The first hole is the scariest, and drilling holes in a boat really isn't that big of a deal as long as you're careful.

What about sparking? Seems like aerators need to be below the water line to prime (most likely in the bilge), but are not ignition protected. Isn't this a problem?

I could be wrong, but I believe the aerators pull a lot less current.

I prime my aerators one time in the spring and thats it. once the water is in the lines, the bags burped it fills no prob.

How do you plan limiting the water flow after the system is full. some type of sewer gate? <BR> <BR>sorry for hijack

Nacho, you quote ratings of pumps, but I am telling the reality of how the pumps work in my boat. The Johnson pump is the winner hands down and not even close. The installation is one thru hull fitting with a manifold. The Johnson is mounted up high in my rear locker. The Tsunami is affixed directly to the sac so priming is not an issue. <BR> <BR>Another other issue that has not been touched upon is the area where the pump or pumps will be located. The Johnson/Jabsco pumps are not intended to be in a wet environment like the tsunami which can be under water. They need to be reasonable dry. Also, the aerator pumps may need a check valve to prevent unwanted filling of the sac. <BR> <BR>The end result is.. <BR>1. which pump is best for your application <BR>2. cost of installation <BR>3. speed of filling sacs

If you check the "Pre 2000 Ski/Wakeboard Boat Pride" I have some pics toward the end of the thread of my system. 5 T-1200 pumps and I would not do it any other way. Fills quick, no problems yet and there is a solution for your bag on the floor and for surfing. It was a pretty tight fit but everything fit like a glove. Flip a switch and wait for the water to come poring out the side from the over flow, then just turn it off. No gate valves and only 3 check valves, the swing style so it shouldn't restrict anything much.

anyone know where i can find information on the simmer pumps? who makes them?

Looks like one of the big drawbacks to the attwood pumps is getting fittings for them. What are you guys willing to pay for some stainless adapters to go from 1 1/8" to 1 1/2"? I may be able to make some.

The biggest prob with the T1200's is going from the 1-1/8" down to the 1" sac fittings. I found a reducer but they were $12 ea x 7 I would need. Couldn't justify the added cost of the fittings and pumps when the 20gpm will be greatly reduced by time it hits the sac fitting so I went with the T800 because a 1" hose will slip over the threaded portion of the pump. The other prob is that the Attwoods are straight threads and typical plumbing is pipe thread. My next system will be the Johnson pumps as they are NPT and will thread into a most plumbing type fittings.

There's good and bad for each, but aerators tend to be less of a headache as long as you get the right fitting sizes. <BR> <BR>Aerators are ignition protected, most impellers are not. <BR> <BR>Jon, if I'm reading your diagram right, you have two pumps pumping into the same line and two pumps pumping out the same line. You can't do that. The pumps will fight each other. Have a smaller pump for each bag.

Jabsco and Johnson are boat ignition protected.

I've installed both, and both are great. It's far far far easier to install impellers. Simple to wire and simple to plumb. If you put a one way valve inline from the fill and a T then when you go to drain it reverses and hits the one way valve and it's forced through the T and over the side. Then you can tell when each is drained. I usually turn it off when the start to slow or trickle so no pumps are hurt. Works really easily and simple. Aerators rock for there speed and you don't need to run the boat to power them. Which if you are surfing and switching sides all the time I would choose. If you wakeboard and only fill or drain once or a few times a day. I would install impellers. The simmer pumps are great, but they are a little noisey. I have almost a full system for sale if anyone is interested. <BR> <BR>Hope this helps <BR>Duffy

Jacob, et al. <BR>Actually, I'm not having any problems at all with any part of my system. My 4-pump system has been filling 2K lbs in 5 or 6 minutes or so for several years... just trying to lend some help. Just about done with that... <BR> <BR>Dennis, put a scoop on your intake. hard to calculate a sacs "head" when water is rushing in at 30+ MPH. <BR> <BR>aerators DO pull a lot less current. so beef up the wires to impeller pumps if they run long distances. <BR> <BR>Have fun, i'm out.

And its SIMER not simmer. <BR> <BR>Simmer is when you cook something in a skillet, on low heat... <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/kiss.gif" border=0>

<a href="http://www.wakeworld.com/Articles/2001/BallastSystem1.asp" target="_blank">http://www.wakeworld.com/Articles/2001/BallastSystem1.asp</a> <BR> <BR>This may answer a lot of your ballast questions...

The simer pumps I bought are re-branded by a local hardware chain. Same model numbers etc. They just have a dif sticker. They actually do fill and drain very quickly. Again, both systems work well. I ended up changing to attwoods, because I switch from goofy to regular surfing 10+ times a day, and saving gas is always a perk. And I am a terrible speller, so be kind<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>Duffy

Nacho i didn't mean to say anything bad about your system im going to use rule pumps also when i do my system. i was just saying that you lose a lot more flow with them. also that is really good price for the pumps where did you find that, and what is the part# for the 1100. <BR> <BR>SIMER so that's why i couldn't find it with Google. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

Jacob, no worries man. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>It's been a while since I bought the pumps. And not sure where that guy is. All the pumps are pretty high on there... <BR> <BR>try this.. <a href="http://livebaitlarry.com/index.php?main_page=index&amp;cPath=27_110" target="_blank">http://livebaitlarry.com/index.php?main_page=index&amp;cPath=27_110</a>

Dont forget amperage draw. Right now I am running both aerators and a impeller (jabsco). With all 3 aerators I see a very minimal amount of drop on the voltage meter, yet even with just the jabsco it pulls significantly more amperage. With all four going I need to put the boat in neutral and rev up to around 900 rpms to keep the jabsco running at full speed.

do you think filling with three jabscos and blasting the pro 80s on only a two battery system will be ok. i dont know anything about amperage draw and the capacity of the batteries yet.

^^^ I dont see a problem, only looking at about a 30A draw for a short time with all 3 pump running

Why on earth would you need to blast your stereo while filling/emptying your ballast while the boat is off?

why not put a second water pump on the belt system and have it clutched like the starter? no amp draw, and if your engine is running you have pump power (more if you rev it up).

I have older bags with only one hole. I have not had problems with air in the system. What is the advantage of having vent lines on each sac. Does it help with over-filling? Do they suck air or need a backflow when draining?

vents: overfilling and burping the sac. I burp mine once at the beginning of the season and call it good. No backflow needed, pumps suck the bags flat. <BR> <BR>Not sure I agree with Mike on the 30A draw. I can't find the thread, but someone posted they had to rev to 900rpm to get full flow out of those pumps.

<a href="http://www.jabsco.com/products/marine/bilge_pumping_systems/electric_flexible_impeller_pumps/water_puppy_us_18660_0121/iid_225/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jabsco.com/products/marine/bilge_pumping_systems/electric_flexible_impeller_pumps/water_puppy_us_18660_0121/iid_225/index.htm</a> <BR> <BR>Good call, Nacho, I was incorrect. Jabsco rates the Puppies at an 8A draw ea, so a 24A draw total. <BR> <BR>It was M-dizzle, just a few posts up stated he needed to rev up engine. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by chpthril on November 19, 2008)

I built an aerator system with the Tsunami 1200. Fittings were really not that big of a deal. 1 1/4 inch hose fits over the threads and then just use a 1 1/4 inch to 1 inch adapter. Filling is great. Only issue is draing all the water out of the bow sac. I am going to install a simer pump for the bow this winter

Eh, doesn't really matter what the number is. The point is: ppl have issues running them.

Great thread. I've read enough to know I wouldn't want to tackle this myself. Hope this isn't too much of a hijack, but I've got an 05 Bu Sunscape LSV with no stock ballast. I've been fumbling around with manual filled sacs for 2 years, 2 440s in the back, one 750 on the floor and one 440 in the front walkway. Great for the wake but a big hassle, esp. with 8 people in the boat. Do any of you know of someone in the Bay area (I'm in Santa Rosa) who could help me design an automatic system and install it? Thanks for any suggestions.