older star hands down. my neighbors have an SS xstar and with the extra 3500# the boat is a champ. they use it a few times a year in salt and its in beautiful condition regardless of that. given those 2 boats take the star hands down, its more consistent and easier to weight
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If you know something - spill it. I'm not asking you to 'out' your contact.. just point my dealer at another dealer so he can get to the bottom of this as reality or rumor and move our orders as needed. |
Mark...I believe James said he was from the Tampa area at some point and like was said above marine max is the nautique dealer for that area. So if you are concerned and want your dealer to contact some one I would start with a google search of Marine Max in tampa, FL!!! Next nearest would be Orlando and D has already said they haven't heard a peep.
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But James if it's someone in your area breaking shafts certainly the dealer(Marine Max) must know as they would have to do the warranty work. Unless these people just broke the shafts and then parked the boat.
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^ You started it bud, you reap what you sow!
You are asking if 230s and previous generation xstar wakes are any good. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Until this point in the game, you couldn't ride a better wake than those two boats! They're still at the top IMO... I still want to know the answers to my question about shaft size, prop size, G25 etc... Where have you been in a G23 if there isn't one within 40 miles of you? |
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Not sure on the wake in saltwater. Not sure if it would be any different? Perhaps the boat can take a little more weight? I can only speak of what I have experience with, and with 5000 lbs of ballast the xstar is amazing. I know the 230 wake can be a bit finicky in comparison. Do you like a steep wake or a mellow wake?
I know the xstar wake and I know the SS has held up very very well, with 980 hours and 6.0l and full fly high system the wake is great, easy to get right every time and the boat is well built. Some will argue this with me but what can you do, some like chocolate while others prefer vanilla. |
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2012: WW Year of the troll.
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James...
MarineMax just sold their coastal Edition 230 they were sittin on for quite some time. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/06/yze2u2aq.jpg I do have a buddy here in Tampa who works for the MC dealer and he's sellin his anniversary edition XStar with very low hours. Send me a pm if you want his info...its immaculate shape used in the bay. And you're right...the closest G23 is prob JD Webbs and he's about 1.5hrs away. But I know of at least 5-6 G23s in the Orlando area off the top of my head, outside of the prototype boats. |
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A friend of mine owns a g23 down near tampa. I'll call him and see if he has heard anything about this issue.
And as for the argument that the 230 has one of the best wakes of all time, I can say that I owned three 230's. I never liked the wake when adding over 1.5k in ballast over stock. Apparently, that's because I don't like to ride at 85ft at 27.5 mph. The wake is very good with factory ballast and a little extra weight, but when you slam a 230 and don't ride really fast, the wake can be pretty tempermental. |
^^Id be curious as to what lake he rides on with it. Not looking for a ride but wondering what lakes are big enough for one.
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^ Don't have or don't allow? Don't really see how operating a 20' boat over a 23' boat would make that huge of a difference out on the water.
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Im just saying bc of the large wakes, rollers & shallow lakes. No sense having a 23' loaded boat in an 8' deep lake. Hell even a 200 stirs up the mud in some of these lakes.
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But then again Im on a lake that has 15 wakeboard boats (210s, Wakesetters, MB) & all but 1 never leave the lift, and its an X2.
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You guys didnt understand my question for Chatt....James I know what 2 lakes are over there (the only 2 lakes over there). I thought Chatt may have been suggesting here in Tampa. And James dont take ur G23 on Seminole please
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I'll have to ask what lake/body of water he keeps his boat on. I texted him this morning and he said he's never heard of a driveshaft failure in a g23. This guys knows a ton of people affiliated with cc, which makes me think this whole driveshaft story may be suspect.
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alot of the lakes in florida have less population... what about elsewhere when massive g23 wakes on bigger lakes are destroying property and gets banned.... hmmm....
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Lakes in Florida less populated than where? With fresh water at a premium every lake I have seen in FL is pretty much built out if it can be. Most are over populated and hard to use on weekends. In North Florida anyway and if there is only 2 lakes near Tampa than i am sure they are just as bad.
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No...those 2 near him in his county are the only lakes and they happen to be public lakes. There are plenty of private lakes here in FL just not in his area.
Anyways...James is asking if a 230 or Xstar is better for choppy conditions. |
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230 for choppy conditions, it's a bigger boat... Also, coming from a bigger boat, you probably want the biggest boat you can get while still retaining the ability to build a pro caliber wake - this is the 230 IMHO
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James...here is that 40th Anniversary 2008 Xstar Saltwater Series I was mentioned if you wanted a Xstar. But there are several around between BAWS & Huston Mastercraft (preowned xstars & x45s)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/07/y9anyhed.jpg http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/07/y6uquta2.jpg http://www.bayareawatersports.com/se...sortDir=DESC&# |
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Boat Size - The 230 is a foot longer, and has much more rear cabin space, where as the XStar has more room in the bow. Wake - As far as size goes, there are pretty much equal. Their characteristics, however, are much different. The XStar wake is much wider from wake to wake, and its shape is way more rampy. You have a larger landing pad in the trough. The 230 is fairly skinny from wake to wake, and is pretty steep. The 230 wake gives you that immediate kick, where as the XStar you have to learn to wait wait wait, before initiating your tricks. Both boats need a bunch of extra weight on top of factory ballast, in my opinion. The 230 is a bit finicky from side to side, but it is easily corrected with a little counter weight to your port side. The XStar is super stable, and you really don't need to worry about either side washing out as long as your not really overloaded on one side. When fully weighted you'll need to ride the 230 at about 23mph. The XStar you can get away with going a bit slower. Handling and Performance - The 230, with the ZR 409 and the Acme 1235 prop, drives amazing. Even with 5000 pounds of ballast in it, it gets on plain with no problem, holds speed to 1/10 of a mile per hour. It takes tight corners like a direct drive ski boat...just whips around. From my experience, the XStar is quite-a-bit more sluggish with the weight needed to make a great wake (this is with the MCX engine, so not sure what the bigger engines are like). When really weighted, you need to pay attention in the XStar because you will take water over the rear...just takes a little getting used to, and then you figure out how to bring the boat to a hault (just finess the throttle a bit and give it little turn at the end, same goes for the G23). The 230 has no issues with this. You can totally cut the throttle and not have to worry about taking on water any where. Storage - Both boats have a ton of storage. Price - This should be about equal. The XStar you may be able to find a bit cheaper, as there are more of them, and the hull style goes back to 2004. For me, I'd take a 230 over an XStar, but that is because I prefer the steeper wake, larger cabin space, and the handling and performance of it. To really find an answer to your question you need to get out and spend a few hours in both and get a good 30 minutes of riding behind both as well, and decide what is best for you and your family. Also, your local dealers may play a role in your decision as well. You have to have confidence that they will treat you well (not an issue here in Minnesota, as both of my dealers are great!). Hope this helps. |
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In answering your question of which boat will handle a rough chop better, hands down the TigeZ3 will out turn, out perform and out ride the others, with double the fuel economy, but dont take my word for it ,go out in all three in same conditions and see for your self , thats the only way your going to know.
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I'd like some hard numbers with an apples to apples comparison proving this 'double' fuel economy statement. |
Betting Dom is inferring that he can get a Z3 with a warranty and the Tige maintenance for free at about the same price as the X Stars and 230s he is looking at. Not to mention a top notch dealer. If thats all true he would be stupid not to take a look. Look at this wake looks impressive as hell to me. Yes it has extra weight so does ever pros boat no matter the boat.
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When I was looking at new boats last spring Tige wasn't able to touch the price on I got my X-30 or on a 23LSV. The dealer actually PM'd on this board trying to get me to take a free trip to the factory and come test drive their boats, etc... and when I told him the pricing I had lined up on the MC and BU he said he couldn't touch it.
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Double the fuel economy while making the same size wake? Boats are close to the same in weight, they have to be displacing similar amounts of water, they are using similar power plants. Better economy? Maybe. DOUBLE? C'mon. Out turn? Have you been in the others? I can't speak for an XStar but a 230 with tons of extra weight still makes a tremendously small turning radius. What is your definition of outperform? Faster, quicker acceleration, better handling, better wake with less weight ... steeper wake? More mellow wake? What is useful to the original poster is something like ironj's response that characterizes the differences based on more concrete data and then gives his personal preference but in the end gives insightful information to the poster that helps him make his decision. Any post that starts with "hands down" and you can basically stop reading right there, IMO. There is no hands down winner to any of these boats since many of them are great and it all comes down to personal preference and need. |
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Not saying your wrong but your looking at a brand new boat with full warrante and zero maintenance cost for 3 years I believe. There is something to say for that. Also when comparing what true sale cost of a boat is the MCs and CCs go for a much higher price. Willing the to bet the percentage drop is close to the same. I will agree that MC and CC are more sought after so you might have an easier time selling one down the road. Also Dom is in and out of all these boats and knows most backwards and forwards because he services them all I have seen them all at his place so he does not just make **** up and throw it out there. I cant afford any of the boat and would take any of them.
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Doesn't Tige use PCM... Doesn't Nautique use PCM... How on earth would a 23' Tige vs a 23' Nautique with the same PCM engine get "double fuel economy". Wow I think reading that just insulted my brain cells.
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http://www.sevylor.com/Monster-Tubet...ble-P2143.aspx
Maybe the new Tige's are using sharkglide technology and it gives them better fuel economy haha. Sorry I'm not bashing Tige at all I swear, that comment about double fuel economy just makes me laugh. |
The tige pricing argument will go on for ages. In New England it's embarassing how much better of a deal you can get on the Tige's. 30k between an x2 and rzr with the same options checked off. 15 k between a vtx. 5 k between a nautique 200, but that's not even really a WAKEboat, and that's talking boat show deals on a custom order vs. boats sitting in the booth from the other brands.
Yes look at the z3 that boat is simply beautiful, the boat looks like sex despite the fact that it's massive. It had more freeboard than any other inboard until the G I believe. IMPO the interior of that thing is about on par with the new xstar or. G series. Tige's are notoriously good in rough water and fuel economy is definitely better by a long shot... I use only 1/2 to 3 quarters the amount of gas when wakeboarding with my boat slammed to the teeth vs a bone stock x-25, not an apples to apples comparison but what I have the most experience with. I have not ridden behind the z unfortunately so I can't comment on that, but if it's like the other Tige's and I'm guessing its probably pretty similar of a hull in terms of characteristics rather than size to my boat considering they are Tige's two most recent hulls, you get big ramp with the taps at 1 and a wall of water with the taps at 6 or more. 3/4 you basically get a nice ramp with a really mean lip at the top. That boat is definitely worth a look. |
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I can maybe see the difference in a heavier boat with an Indmar versus and lighter boat with a PCM or different make. I'm just saying comparing a Z3 to the 230 with the same exact engine is not going to make a big enough difference to claim a Z3 gets double the fuel economy. Not even close. Now your X25 comparison to a 20ftr well ya that I can maybe see. Not double still but it would get significantly better fuel economy.
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Tige is the same way here in MN. The deal is better than any competitor on a similar boat. My example is this I bought a 2013 RZR with a 76K MSRP(retarded) for less than a 2012 Moomba 20V with a MSRP of 56K. Seems crazy but the Tige dealer here prices aggressively. But with that said your not going to get into a Z3 for 60K. I think at a good deal they are closer to 80K.
But what some said has merit. It's the exact thing we looked at and a big reason we bought new. For similar price we bought new with 3 years of warranty and 3 years of free scheduled maintenance. So the first 3 years there is just payment, insurance and gas. To me there is something to be said about that!! As an accountant I liked the fact that it virtually eliminates any unknown financial exposure. I know exactly what the boat will cost every months for the next 3 years. But that comes at the higher cost of a new boat. But when you figure a similar payment on a used 60K boat then add the cost of maintenance and factor in repairs and look at the annual cost used could cost you more. But you beat initial depreciation with used..etc etc. |
i use a fifth to quarter tank per hour wakebarding (40 gal) with 2100lbs ballast, total of 5600 or so for boat and ballast alone vs 3/8 tank (50 gallon tank) per hour with stock ballast and boat, so 5100 lbs or so. obviously the x25 displaces more because its bigger, but the weight is 500lbs less.
thats 10 gallons per hour versus about 18. still not apples to apples, and still not double, and different props and different measurements of fuel etc, but same 3 riders every time, similar weights etc both brand new tournament inboards... im not supporting the double claim, thats over the top. You may get an extra gph, maybe 5, maybe 0, out of the z3 vs 230 who knows? im just saying i understand where the statement comes from because of what ive observed |
I have an indmar 335 pushing my 22 foot boat with 4k ballast plus a few people, fuel, gear, etc.. and have the same results as simple. I do not have a flowmeter on my fuel line (although it would be a cool feature), but I do keep my tank full and fill up most of the time after each day we ride.
Mine is not a Tige, or PCM, or a 20 foot boat, and I am approx 1400' elevation. I do not buy the "they just do" argument that Tige is twice as fuel efficient, I don't even buy that argument for Tige being better fuel efficiency. I like facts, and unless you do a side by side with flow meters and equal ballast, I will continue to not believe it. |
not many people have a flow meter or access, id love to put them all to the test.
im not asking you to believe it, rather explaining the reason that i personally believe it, it irritates me when people toss out claims without facts or any kind of reasoning at all |
I know you were not asking us to believe it, I appreciate your experience with your Tige and I believe your results. I was speaking to whoever wrote "they just do". I too am irritated by claims without real data to back it up.
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You can get on boat test .com and check out several tested examples, here is one 22 foot to 22 foot MC 4000lbs, Tige 4000 lbs , MC 90gals , Tige 48 gals, MC 171 nautical miles, Tige 168 nautical miles, both same speeds.
As to pcm 6.0l CC or Tige they are infact same ratio same hp 409 , treamendous difference in hull design, Tige uses a deta pad which gives a lower coefiencent of drag at any speed , also with the trim a Tige goes on plane in less time which again you can check out on boatest ,com. As to ride quality Tige is built with penske synthetic which absorbs more shock. As to turning Tige will turn perfectly in either direction unlike MC or CC and with no prop cavitation. But again as I said before , go out and test all in same conditions , loaded and normal , demo the way you would use it and be the judge. And yes I have been in all of them except the new G23 and can make this claim, also have and continue to work and test drive them regularly . Hope this gives you enough data, but search out on boatest .com. |
Gotta love this place. The kid asks about the difference between the XStar and the 230, and somehow it turns into a debacle about the fuel economy of a Tige. Almost as comical as the stuff I've been reading on Facebook the last couple of weeks.
James, if you want more direct insite on the characteristics of specific boats, feel free to shoot me a private message. I'll do my best to help you out. |
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Why is my post bad when I propose that he trys all the boats hes interested in , and those out their must not have enough confidents in their brand favorites to propose the same thing in same water and conditions of use.
If he is serious , he will do just that and then could come on here and gives us his personal experence with those boats and not just our opinions. To not push him to try all , with the amount of money being spent makes no sense. |
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Regardless, to each his own, you can discuss whatever topics you want to. |
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Can you post screenshots of boattest.com? i dont know what 2 models your comparing and having trouble finding the test results. |
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You may want to re read the entire thread. He clearly states fuel economy is a big deal to him as it is to almost all boat buyers since they dont run on BS. Also he never said the Tige was out. It just has not been mentioned as much as the rest. I believe it is because he thinks the Z3 is only a good surf boat, which is not the case The Z3 wakeboard wake is right up there with all the wakes mentioned in this thread some may be slightly better here and there while some are not. That will ultimately be his opinion since we all have our own unique riding style. The biggest thing to me is he says he wants to compete locally and national, the biggest wake is not ultimately what will boost him to the top, His wake does not travel with him to the Pro Tour (MC) Gravel Tour/Wake Games (CC) Wake Open (BU) My Wake (Tige) or any other for that matter. IMPO the Tige wake is the most Versatile of them all, it is huge, more then he will need to begin with coming from a Sea Ray and can be adjusted to a nice transition with a smooth ramp or a big wall with a hole lot of lip and pop to it, this is good for competition since it allows him to dial up a solid Peaky wake for say a CC tourny or a nice smooth ramp for say a BU tourny. Once he tries them all he will make his mind up and choose the right boat for him. |
More dealers............ of course the wake they sell is the best.............
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Chris- IronJ owns a G23 but I have never seen the guy bash any other boats and has always been respectful and honest about other brands. Him offering his advice and trying to help the guy out is exactly what is "right" with this website. Not wrong. Don't believe he's a dealer either ;)
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As a rider I have owned a Chris Craft much like a Sea Ray, a CC, worked as a show skier and rode behind BU and CC for more hours then every one of you combined since water sports was my full time job gas was paid for by the park we rode everyday in between every show. While you where at work behind a desk or whatever I was at work 9 to 5 skiing. After that job work started here where our full time Mech. had an old 210 which we rode after work all the time. Used to be a BU Dealer great wake, great boat. My Personal Opinion as a Rider from all my experience of skiing all over and competing all over is the Tige Wake is Best for him, but ultimately he will choose whats best for him. |
...and your personal opinion is no way influenced by the fact that selling tiges pays your bills.... Sorry don't buy it and have dealt with plenty of dealers and some how their personal opinion always revolves around the boat that puts money int heir pocket.
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My mistake Chris I thought you were saying that Ironj's post was "nothing more annoying than this" sorry about that.
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No problem man, I probably should have worded it better
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Haha no worries I've said that hundreds of time on this site!
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Sorry to the OP to highjack im out whatever you choose enjoy the beautiful FL water ways theres nothing like em and shred hard! |
So now we just need James' MC closest dealership to chime in...BAWS where you at?
For a Tige dealer being in the Tampa bay area I sure as heck dont see them around on the Tampa side of the bridge. Although I have heard good things about you guys and dealt with you on Malibu stuff in past. |
I agree with all that, but I've heard the same thing from just abotu every boat dealer I've dealt with, so pardon me if I don't take your "opinions" as non biased
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