Tranny Leak, Tranny slipping under load, want my boat back!
 

Transmission Issues:

- Tranny was slipping with hard cornering and under load out of the hole.
- Found I was low on Tranny Fluid, so I topped it off (probably a quart low on a 2 quart capacity).
- Slipping went away
- Started slipping again after 2 or 3 trips out, plenty of tranny fluid in the bilge (although since the tranny fluid floats on the water, it's not getting low enough to really get sucked out by the bilge). It's undoubtedly leaking.
- No burnt smell from fluid
- Dropped boat at dealer (Pacific Boatland in Vancouver) on 6/18/13 because I was going to be on vacation all last week and it was the most convenient time to have some 'scheduled downtime'.
- It took them 11 days until Saturday 6/22 for them to even look at it.
- Supposedly they can't find the source of the leak and it didn't slip when testing it out of the water unloaded.

I'm about at the point where I just have them replace all the damn seals on the transmission and get me my boat back...

Thoughts on what I should do? Not sure how many labor hours would be involved in something like replacing the seals? I found the kit for $183 on skidim.
http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RK173058

Of course the tech that's working on my boat isn't at the shop today so tomorrow morning I'll be addressing things again with them...

your tranny is toast gonna need a rebuild at least. don't ever run it low that ruined it.

If my tranny was toast, wouldn't I have dark, burnt fluid?

I am not a tech, but typically in our shop when a transmission slips we try flushing it a few times (sometimes once, sometimes more than once just for precaution). On occassion that has fixed the problem. I would flush it, possibly replace the seals, and see if that helps before rebuilding or replacing the whole tranny. Just my .02 but like I said, I am not a tech.

Every time it slipped it was ruining it, they cannot take being run low.

The continued slipping is the proof that it's toast. No, your tranny fluid does not need to be burned or dark.

New seals will not fix it.

Yeah, I guess that may be the case. I guess the reason why I questioned it is because after topping off the tranny fluid, I went out boating another 2 or 3 days and didn't experience any slipping.

I am tempted to get my boat back and do some more testing/troubleshooting with it, since my troubleshooting is free, not $100/hr.

To put things in perspective. In my brand new Enzo, at hour 3, I starting hearing slipping. Took it back to dealership. They found a leaky seal. They called PCM, and they overnighted a new transmission and the dealership removed and replaced it within 4 days. Granted, it was a new boat, and I would have expected no less, but even the momentary slipping I experienced when the boat was leaning was enough for PCM to say I needed a new transmission. There was no 'let's watch and see'. You are going to pay the same labor to replace the seals as to put in a new transmission. So if you replace the seals and it ends up breaking down, you are going to pay double the labor to redo all the work.

Wow.

I guess I'll take that into consideration when I have the chat tomorrow with the service manager and the boat tech.

It's a "new to me" 20 year old boat, so I honestly didn't know what "slipping" felt or sounded like. If it's the worst case scenario, this will be an expensive education in identifying symptoms...

the tranny fluid in the bilge means that unless you kept topping it off it was again being run low and I am willing to bet it was slipping just not as noticably.


I love the fact that they tested it out of the water with no load. How do they know it did not slip?????????????????????????

I'd take it somewhere else probably.

Right. Which is why they're saying that they want to river test it. = more money flying out of my pockets.

This was Saturday, and the tech's not in today. He obviously didn't spend a lot of time on my boat. I am also frustrated that he wasn't able to find the source of the leak.

probably puked it out the breather

Call Skidim and ask them about the tranny, they'll tell you whats up with it.

Yeah, actually called them this morning. They were 15 calls deep with all their tech reps. The lady that talked to me on the phone was as helpful as she could be, but obviously not the level of expertise as the ones I wanted to talk to.

But yeah, I'll try again and see what the shop says when I have a chat with them on Tuesday.



I appreciate the insight. definitely getting worried though. My $10k "budget" boat might be a lot bigger hit on my budget. :banghead:

well, if it makes you feel any better, you could have checked the oil at start and it been just fine, and after running a few hours, it would have spit out enough fluid to be low. Not many of us check fluids at multiple points in the day. Just bad luck.

Well, tomorrow I guess I'll make the decision as to whether I should let the repair shop do more troubleshooting (river test at $100/hr) or if I should just take my boat back and do more troubleshooting myself.

It'll depend in part on what the tech says. But at least if it's in my possession I can at least do it on my timeline and maybe even have some fun in the process.

Who knows, maybe the best plan of action will end up being to buy a new tranny from Skidim.com for $1500 vs a rebuild.

I guess those are all the variables I'll have to juggle. I'll keep you all updated.

Dude, I have a friend who has rebuilt his. You have a direct drive. You can take it in and out by hand... Pull that birch yourself and bring it to a transmission shop. Velvet drives are easy simple transmissions!

I agree with this statement if it is an older boat it should be very simple to get to and get out. I just did mine and saved big money and had it back on the water in just a few days. I'm not service tech by any means but it wasn't a hard job to do.

x3

I've only aided in rebuilding one and never done it completely but didn't seem hard at all.

Not only that. But Skidim can hook you up with the parts and basically walk you through what you need to do...

I am sure there are some writeups online too.

Save yourself the thousand bucks, buy $150 in parts, some tools, a case of beer and invite a friend over and learn something new. The knowledge gained performing a task like this, in my opinion, is far more worth it than letting joe shmoe do it

Exactly! Trayson, take it right up the street to Clark county transmission and get a quote. Good guys in there and they know what they are doing. Much cheaper than buying a new one. Especially if you do the removal and reinstall.
Feel free to pm me. I live in the area and may be able to help you out.

call the boat shops in your area and ask where they get the velvet drives rebuilt.

a regular car trans guy probably will not know the little tricks involved to do the velvet drive right. you don't want to do it twice.

a new one for $1500 is probably not necessary.

how are you with alignment? know how to do it?

There is more to swapping out a tranny than meets the eye.

I called CC Transmission. They said they don't do boat tranmissions. :(

I talked to Pacific Boatland. Sounds like they generally just recommend "replace" and it doesn't sounds like they send customers to get them rebuilt.

Maybe I'll call Active Water Sports and see what they have to say.

Basically, I've spent $100 for Pacific Boatland to tell me they can't find a leak, don't smell burt fluid, and that they need to river test it to figure out anything more. I told them I'll come pick up my boat and do more troubleshooting on my own.

I figure to be absolutely sure, it’s pretty much as simple as this:

1. Clean out bilge of old tranny fluid.
2. Put boat in water
3. Drive until tranny’s warm.
4. Shut off and check fluid
5. Top off fluid if low
6. Run the **** out of the boat
7. If it still slips, then I’m f***ed and need a tranny.

I've never done it. I've done typical wrenching on my Jeep (hubs, bearings, brakes, etc), but honeslty haven't done any major jobs... And this is my first boat and I've had it a whopping 2 months.

So, no, I don't know about alignment. I dunno, maybe I'm getting in over my head. :confused:

Yeah, I'm definitely going to be in touch with them. Without talking directly to a tech, they're speculating that I:

I think I need to do one more troubleshooting run as described above (just for peace of mind) and then I'll be seeing what they recommend...

yep do that trouble shooting yourself.

there is much more in depth info on tranny issues and alignment tutorials on correctcraftfan.com

you may get a recommendation for a shop there too.

What year and brand and model boat is this?

1992 Supra Sunsport (direct drive)
PCM 351 Pro Boss
PCM 40 1:1 transmission

My friend said the alignment wasn't as hard as everyone said. And tips and tricks for rebuilding velvet drives?? Why was this his first tranny rebuild and he did it right the first time? Not rocket science people. Do you research, talk to the folks and skidim and do it.

Continuing to run it is stupid in my opinion. You know it leaks. You know it slips. Quit thinking you don't have a problem, drain it, bear hug it, slap it on your kitchen table and get going!!!

A couple Machinist Jacks solved all my alignment and installation woes when I did mine! Without them I struggled and struggled to get everything to line up correctly. I tried stacking wood, etc. and I could never get everything to line up. An old mechanic told me to buy some of these and sure enough, they solved all of my alignment issues. You just put the jacks under the transmission and slowly turn the handle until everything lines up. You could probably use the cheap import ones and save some money too.

Machinist Jacks

BTW, I ended up doing the rebuild twice! I replaced all the clutch packs, but didn't realize that I needed to replace the internal seals as well. When I put it back together the first time the transmission still slipped because the pump wouldn't build any pressure. One of the seals was nicked and was bad. So I put the boat back on the trailer, went home, and redid everything! Oh well, I now know how to do it!

IMPO..If you filled it up and it didnt slip I would not condem the trany. Stop using it until you find and fix the leak. One of the most common leaks is at the shifter seal. Find the shift cable follow it down to the lever it hooks to. That lever turns a shaft that puts the boat in gear. They leak here a lot. Just clean everything really good. Take some fluid with you to the lake. Idle around while looking for the leak. If its leaking as bad as you say it should be easy to find.
http://www.skidim.com/products.asp?d...0&pagenumber=3
This link shows the oring in question #92908 also need a #11006. You will need to remove the shift valve and replace these 2 items. That is of course if you find it leaking at the shift lever. Good luck. Just a common place to look for a leak.

Thanks. I got the boat back the other day. I'm going to take it back out on the water today after work.

I had a velvet drive on my 89 prostar 190 that started leaking tranny fluid. We noticed it before we had any slippage, but it was a simple oring on the top. I ordered the entire gasket kit from skidim but when we looked closely it just took one oring on the top and it was fixed.

Okay, here's the update.

I had cleaned out the bilge. I warmed up the tranny on the water and checked the fluid per what I found on a Natique website regarding the PCM 40i 1:1

So I topped off the fluid. Then I took it out and did a bunch of s-turns and Zipped around. No apparent slipping.

So, then I did a few out of the hole pulls. Again, no slipping that I was able to notice.

So, I filled up my ballast sacks. I was probably around 1200 to 1400 pounds of ballast, and didn't feel any slipping pulling my 280 pound friend up on the surf board or when surfing with him. Likewise when he was back corner in the boat with me surfing (the other people were probably 215 more pounds) I didn't notice the tranny slipping.

So, we each had a pretty decent length surf session. He took 3 or 4 pulls. I took just the one long one...

After we were done, the water in the bilge did have a little milky-ness to it. And I probably had to add under 1/4 of a quart to get it back to where it was.

So, the fluid is getting out somehow. Yet I can't seem to find anything obvious. I looked around the pressure relief valve (at the top of the tranny on a spring about the size of a pencil eraser) and it still seemed clean.

I did notice this verbiage in the Factory Service manual that looked interesting:

I'm wondering if this could be it???


On another side note, it seems I have water getting in from somewhere. The bilge pump was running a decent amount when the boat was weighted for surfing. It's always something, right?

Depending on how deep you sink your boat with all of that ballast, I'd bet that extra water in the bilge is coming from one of three sources. 1.engine air vents which are taking on water (I duct tape mine shut on the surf side to prevent that). 2.your shaft seal needs to be tightened or repacked. 3.water is back feeding through the bilge pump outlet. The last item is what was happening to me and it drove me crazy until I figured it out.

Regarding item 3-just duct tape that too and pull the tape when you empty your ballast. Good luck.

I'd speculate it's #2.

Here is a pic of the rear of my boat... I think my vents are pretty high.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P...UNSET%255D.jpg

Although I'm really going to have to pay attention to my gas tank overflow breather vent. I know I'm running with the waterline at the top of the rub rail when underway surfing...

My bilge outlet is really high. No way water's getting in there. I have a ton of freeboard on my Supra and when I'm surfing the nose is plenty high...

Here's a pic of that bilge outlet, just below the vent that's between the two forward tower mounts (on the white)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...s800/Boat2.jpg

Another shot on the left edge of this pic:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Z...UNSET%255D.jpg

Another update. I called up and talked to one of the techs at SkiDIM. (man, they know their sh**.)

The next steps to check are to pull the starter and check for tranny fluid in that area. I guess there's a seal by the flywheel and if that's going bad I'll see it there. Also, he told me to check my engine/transmission/prop alignment. I guess if there's an alignment issue, that transmission has the tendency to walk out seals.

He said that since I'm finding fluid in the bilge, that it's unlikely that it's the transmission cooler. Makes sense.

This was exactly what i was running into just a few weeks ago. I couldn't figure out where it was coming from so i finally pulled the tranny out. Once i got it out i looked at the input shaft seal and you could tell it was shot. Replaced that and haven't leaked a drop or had any problems since then. I would say you may be faceing the exact same thing. It took us about three hours to pull the tranny replace the seals and put it back in. Ordered my seal kit thru SkiDIM and learned a lot about my boat!

Did you have to go through the whole engine/tranny/prop shaft alignment? I watched that natique video and there's a lot to learn, that's for sure.

In your case, were you ever able to see where the leak was coming out into the bilge? I've tried to look and have some suspicions it could be on the bottom where it's really tight between the tranny and the hull making it quite hard to feel much less see under there...

I would guess if they did the swap in 3 hours it was NOT aligned to less than .003

most people don't align correctly in the first place, let alone know what it is. Like the advise to use machinists jacks...that's not for alignment...maybe feeler gauges?.

It really does not matter where it leaks from...it leaks, it's gotta be fixed and since it was slipping the internals are damaged(they are not "tough")

to get it out is not so bad, you can take it out and either take it to or ship it to a rebuilder, sure you could try to do it yourself but for most people

the chances they screw something up and then have to r and r the tranny again is pretty high so getting it professionally(assuming you can find a professional) rebuilt is the best option.

Then put it back in and align it.

Update, tranny's out...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-F...705_185133.jpg

We certainly weren't as adept as you. took us 3 hours just to pull the transmission.

Tranny is all boxed up and being shipped out today to Fantastic Finish Marine. They specialize in marine tranny rebuilds and will give it a full overhaul.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0...709_094319.jpg

Update:

Well, I got the transmission back from Fantastic Finshes Marine on Friday but I was elbows deep in an event I put on for my BMW car club... It was a blast, but it took the whole weekend... http://vimeo.com/71303899

We dug into it yesterday after work. Changing the rear main seal was about the only smooth and easy part. Let's just say that reinstalling the flywheel 3 times (don't ask) and a trip to 4 parts stores later, we ended the night with the transmission "in" and the stringer mounts installed. A lot of the hoses and electrical are hooked back up. Starter's back in. We need to hook up a few odds and ends still, but we did make progress. This evening we'll finish up hooking things up, then fill the transmission and give the alignment a shot. If we can't get it all aligned I have an appointment with Active to have them do that part on Thurs.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. When they looked at the tranmission, they confirmed that a seal kit would not have done it. The clutches were at the point where I probably wouldn't have made it though this season. Whether that happened with the low fluid slipping or when I sucked water into it, not sure. But regardless, a rebuild was the right decision.

HEY NOW!
"didn't feel any slipping pulling my 280 pound friend up"

I'm 235 bro, making me seem like a fatty!

I must have added in 45 pounds for the weight of firearms, ammo, and ego! ROFL

Well, we spent another evening buttoning up things on the boat. We connected the tranny cooler and proceeded to work on the propshaft to transmission alignment. It took us a while (maybe an hour) but all in all we felt pretty satisfied with our result. We were able to get the left right to basically dead on balls (pretty much the same spec from side to side, under .001 difference). And top/bottom we were able to get it to within .0015 which is well within the within .003 spec. So we quit while we were ahead!!!

Filling the transmission fluid was a bit odd. The FSM says that the spec is 1.9 liters. I put in around 1.4 liters and it was overflowing fluid out the dipstick hole. I sucked quite a bit out and it still seemed like I had too much. It was still above the full mark. :confused: I have no idea how much I sucked out (I used my topsider pump), but obviously there's no way I got the full 1.9 in there. I even warmed up the engine to temp (hooked to the garden hose) and made sure the boat was level when I checked it. I am going to give Fantastic Finishes Marine a call tomorrow to ask them about it, and will also be re-checking the fluid level on the water tomorrow...

it feel surreal to think that the boat is "fixed" after having been down since July 5th. As part of this ordeal, I ended up getting a new ring gear on the flywheel, changing the rear main seal, getting the starter all cleaned up and tested, and verified my propshaft alignment.

I'm praying all goes well on the water tomorrow. I have to admit I am a little nervous.