Chris you obviously know nothing about the crew and their honesty at Fortes.

first post by james guys. Salt usage. If someone can point it out, would be happy to find out, but i don't think that BU or tige has a saltwater/coastal series that would hold up to repeated salt usage (granted, could get a closed-cooling motor as i think all L96/LY6 based engines are closed, but the internal components of the boat probably aren't designed for salt).

Are you really arguing about fuel economy in boats that are $70k+? If you're worried about the cost of fueling any of the boats mentioned in this thread then you probably shouldn't be owning one. This thread is why I love WW in the Winter... Carry on...

Willy T- Tige does use PCM and PCM makes the Crusader Salt Water Series engine and while I'm not positive I would imagine Tige could use those in their boats since they use all the other PCM engines. They do make after market closed cooling systems for most engines (not all). Closed cooling is clutch. Nautique's Coastal Editions come with the Crusader engine, corrosion resistent engine harness, stainless gas shocks on all compartments, and sacrificial anodes on rudder and a few other components. Nautique has definitely done a great job of perfecting the salt water series, but you can get a closed cooling system on most engines no matter the make.

Totally agree with you Brad, but you would be surprised the number of people in debt up to their eyes that this is a concern for. I can't imagine being boat poor, or even the payment that goes along with one of these boats. I know my dealer told be about payments close to $800 monthly. That is crazy. I mean if you buy a G or an Xstar the payment is got to be close to a grand a month.

Fuel economy isn't a big problem as some people are saying. Really I just need to go out and ride behind all the boats. I have a G23 line up 2 weeks from now and then I will work on getting a Tige demo and Mastercraft. In case anyone hasn't noticed already the Malibu is out of the question now due to the lack of a Saltwater compatible boat. So the title if I could change it should be "Super Air 230(older) vs. Mastercraft X-Star(older) vs. Tige Z3".

hey guys...I sell MB Sports in FL, can I get in on this ? hahaha

Been 7-8 Tiges on lake Tarpon every weekend for like the last 2 months straight. Mines the oldest 2003 22V a R20 couple of RZ2's and some 22VE's a 20v and a Z1. Most active brand on lake tarpon. See 1 X2 pretty regular and couple of Malibus. There are more poping up on Keystone as well. They are really kicking azz out on the saltwater side of the bridge. St Pete,IRB and Clearwater beach. Mianly with the RZ4 and Z3.

Like I said on the Tampa side of the bridge. Only the big 3 over here on the private lakes Ive been on...plenty of potential for them to get business over here. Keystone is getting closer to me though:)

Tarpon is tampa side.
Not that far from you. There is atleast one on lake Carroll. And they are on the lakes in Land O Lakes as well. But the biggest concentration of them is on Tarpon. If you need one closer maybe you should buy one and get things rolling on your lake! :)

^^^nah...holding out for the G21

James (OP)...didnt mean to get this thread off track again:)

Sorry as well James.
G21 .......The all new Z1 is coming soon! Check it out!!! Going to be a major player in the 21ft market IMPO.
Ok back to the OP..... James drive them all and find something that fits your familys needs. Good Luck!

Easy to get better fuel economy when you can clear the wake at 90ft with no ballast. I mean, BU and CC owners are stuck in the stone ages riding factory ballast + 1 or 2k in extra weight at 75-80ft.

It's a fact.

Oh here we go...my boat is better than yours...mines bigger.

James go demo and pick the boat that works for you and your family. Pay no attention to the men with the fragile egos and low self esteem.

We all like our boats for one reason or another. I just don't know why it always come down to the turd throwing and mines "better" But I did recently learn on WW that there are 2 kinds of boats: The "big 3" and "budget boat". Entertaining!!

Hillarious

Please point me in the direction of the boat test that show that substantial of an efficiency increase with a Tige.

Or is this another example where you are going to plead stupidity about all things internet? Still waiting on those 10+ threads from the Tige forum.

Oh the irony that your ridiculous comments probably cost Tige more than they help...

If anyone really takes this stuff to heart and lets any of our comments hurt our "brands" they are the silly one. When we started boat shopping every boat in our budget was on the table. We let the boats and the dealers decide. I asked a few specific questions on here that owners of a specific boat could answer. Other wise we bought the boat that worked for our budget and family. James should do the same. 95% of the stuff on WW should be taken purely for it's entertainment value.

Other wise you need to check out the state farm insurance commercial....you know the one that says everything on the internet is true. When the guy asks "where did you hear that?" Response "The internet!!!"

Silly or not, it happens. My entertainment comes from asking TigeFanBoy4Me to back up his claims. The excuses and topic shifts that ensue are truly enjoyable.

I think the one thing that holds true is that a bad tow boat really doesn't exist anymore. Tige, Moomba, MB, etc have all stepped up their game to compete with the big boys in the industry. The only problem is their prices have also started to mimic the big three. There is one area I think we can all agree on, these toys have gotten too damn expensive.

if you can point me to another place... fine but I have to call you out on the boattest.com thing since i haven't seen anything from either of you.

if you compare the RZ2 to a VLX you get 7% better fuel economy. Woohoo!

for full disclosure i don't own a tige or malibu, and the malibu had the hammerhead (which, theoretically, is a less efficient engine anyway)

So a 5.7 liter (350ci) PCM engine in a Tige only got 7% better fuel efficiency than a 6.3L (383ci) Indmar engine in a Malibu?

http://www.miridiatech.com/news/wp-c...ceivable-1.jpg

just saw a pic of the new Wetsounds Z3 - so sick!

Im not joining another forum to go check out these pictures lol post up, you have me curious

I didn't see any tests on boattest.com of nautiques... did I miss something? So... we've got 7% with numbers actually shown... There have been claims of 33%, 50% and 100%.

To the person who said something about an X25 burning 18gph... what prop was that boat running. I've never heard of a wakeboat getting that bad before... maybe 12GPH... Any boat running that high either is slammed or somethings wrong... apples to apples please

Hahaha you're also comparing it to the wrong boat! Vlx vs z1 etc.

This thread is a hoot.

That is no joke what buddy's boat, x25 with Mcx runs after 1 hour of straight wakeboarding time If you top off the tank you get down to about 65% on the fuel meter after an hour of wakeboarding. Runs an acme 537 I believe. The thing is a PIG on gas... He also runs 91 octane rather than the proper 89 for that motor

Look at the numbers between the x45 and the and rz4 both with the 6.0l, at best cruise (around wakeboard speed) the x45 achieves 2.25 mpg while the tige gets 3.37... That means 50% better fuel economy of an rz4 vs an x45....

Well, I'll admit that after looking at the test numbers I was partially wrong. If you compare a z1 to vlx the tige gets 15% economy better, likely because of the smaller motor. And a vtx a few point better on fuel economy with equal power so the difference is negligible when you compare to a malibu. Seeing the numbers it's easy to see why I supported that statement, I only ever get behind the wheel of MC's and Tige's.

Quick question guys. Buying a used boat what are things out want to look out for? Also what are things that could add to the value of said boat?

Look for Maintenance records. Check the hull and the prop.Check the operation of the brakes on the trailer. Check out the stereo and listen to all the speakers. Operate all the ballast fill and drain each bag.Also make sure the seal for the prop shaft doesn't leak. Finally operate all the gauges and the heater if it has one.I'm sure others will pick up what i've left out.

It's 95 ft and i own a Tige.Get your facts straight.:D

Just a few items to keep in mind:

1. It's not always the case, but the condition of the interior and gel coat is a pretty good indicator of how the boat was taken care of, overall. Meaning that it seems people who take really good care of the vinyl, carpet and gel coat, most likely did the routine maintenance, didn't let it sit outside during sub-freezing temps without being winterized, etc.

2. Super low hours isn't always a good thing. It could mean that boat rarely got serviced and that the engine hardly was used...allowing for engine parts to sit unprotected (no oil on them). The scenario I'm talking about would be a boat that is 10 years old, but only has 20 hours on it. Again, not always the case but something to keep in mind. If you are looking at boats in the < 5 years old range, then this should not be a concern.

3. 1000 hours seems to be a magic threshold on resale. Once you hit that mark, it gets much tougher to sell your boat, privately. Depending on how much your going to use it this may determine how many hours you are willing to allow your new-to-you boat to have. For example. If you plan to have the boat for 4 years and estimate to put on 150 hours a year (600 hours total). You may want to keep your search for boats at no more than 300 hours. Same as above...not the case in every sale, but I know from experience that 1000+ hours is hard to sell privately.

Others will chime in with their thoughts, these are just the 3 things I personally always assess when looking for a boat.

As for adding value, the only thing that would concern me is stuff that cannot be changed after the purchase...color, engine (can be change, but unlikely one will do it), brand reputation, wake characteristics, layout of interior. Other things, such as: stereo, bimini, tower and ballast can all be modified whenever you please.

Maintence is key, you can have the engine computor read to confirm hours and at what RPM saw the most hours this will give a good idea of usage , most owners should have all records preferable in log style, if its a doit yourselfer ask for receits for oil , impellars etc., hope this helps.

Ok so quick update. I got the chance to ride behind a MC X-30 today and that was a pretty awesome boat. It looks sleek, rides nice, and throws a amazing wakesurf wake. The wakeboard wake I was greatly disappointed with though. Way to small even with full stock ballast, could barely get a good grab in. All in all good boat small wake.

James any used boat you buy, get a compression test

Most boats out there you are going to add to the stock ballast. But that boat doesn't have a small wake. A prostar 190 has a small wake. What year X30 was it? I'm not trying to bust your chops, but you need some practice. I've seen plenty of guys go off behind those boats with just stock ballast. I suck so I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds to be like your still a beginner. We seriously considered a 04 X-30 with stock ballast and thats not what I would call a small wake. It isn't a G23 but there's plenty of wake in that boat.

Typical beginner,blame the boat.You should see some of the old school guys with no ballast in their boats.

2013 X-30. It might just be that I am used to Nautique wakes which provides more of poppy wake. I may have not have popped enough I don't know, I just didn't like it that much.

Says the guy with a RZ2 with 2000lbs of ballast. No, but all I am saying is I may have not been used to the Mastercraft wake (first time I have ever rode behind a MC) or I was doing something wrong with my riding.

James, don't get sucked into Roberts shenanigans, he doesn't use 2000 lbs of ballast, he only used TAPS 2 (much better than TAPS 1) and rides at 95' and can still clear the "wake".

The MC probably has more of a rampy wake. But I am sure that boat throws a decent wake stock. Sometimes it will take a set or 2 to get used to it.

Thats why demoing is good and bad. You don't really get enough time behind it to get dialed in. More looking to see size and that the wake clears up where you ride. I know when we demo'd i had the opposite effect. First hit I went so much farther and higher than I was used to I crashed. Good riders it doesn't matter what boat they get behind, they kill it. But I suck so I hit it a few times saw it was way better than I was used to and called it good. That X-30 should put your Sea ray to shame. Wake should have way better shape and be much firmer. Should have been better.

Try the Z-3 already. It's got plenty of kick to the wake. But If you are so set on the nautique your probably just wasting some poor sales guys time looking at anything else. Buy up the G23 and call it good!!

Which is stock so why does that matter? It's one thing to not like the wake of the MC, but you can't blame it for you not being able to do a grab.

We have a friend who's 14yr old son has ridden with us a couple times. He rides cable a lot and has only been riding for about 1.5yrs. He gets a stupid amount of air very effortlessly with great technique.

I've seen him just playing around, Ollie W2W (meaning he approached like a regular HS wake jump and when he reached the trough, he Ollied over both wakes) several times with enough air to grab the board @ 70' and 22.6mph.

The kid has a lot of pop and style though. He regularly does Ollie 360's.

Technique is all you need.Once you get past a 540 you may need to add weight. Mastercrafts have some of the best wakes i've hit.Tige's have the most adjustable wakes of all the boats i've ridden behind.Malibu's are very similar to Tige's.Nautiques are awesome as well.;)Just learn how to play the game before you buy what the pro's use.Skill always wins against equipment w/o skill.;)

I was referring to Byerly and Shapiro.Parks too.

Like that old video of Byerly behind an outboard barefoot boat. Like a MC prostar 200. He was going off and the wake was barely a bump. A 2013 X-30 has PLENTY of wake with just stock ballast, like Robert said all the way up to 540's inverts and similar tricks.

Sounds to me like any of these boats are beyond what you need based on your skill level. Any of them are going to give you plenty of room to progress and learn. So it's more you are buying for want. Any inboard is going to be an upgrade from your sea ray in wake. The wake is going to have better shape and firmness. The sea ray may have a large wake but it's soft and you just cut thru it. So buy what you want, but I don't think you should be basing it on the wake from what you have let slip out. I'm not busting you out I suck too. I bought a boat that produces more wake than i need without ballast. But I bought it because it fit us, we liked it, and I WANTED it. I sure didn't buy it because I needed the wake!!

James, all due respect bro but blaming a wake on not being able to grab is crazy! My friends and I routinely ride stock ski boat wakes and do all our tricks, we suck. My buddy who is the best out of all of us learned his stuff- 360s, back side spins, switch tricks behind a 16' fishing boat, now he rides an 03 supra ssv 22 with gravity games sacs- which I bet is a wake on par with what you rode in the mc x30... He can do every frontside 5, hs and sw bs 3s, rolls, switch rolls, tantrums... Bottom line, its not the wake, its the rider. And to drive home one more point, as I said before, the G23 being so big can hinder progression since its so big

I don't know about that.. I suck too - but hitting the G23 wake, I felt like I had enough hang time to make a sandwich (that'd be a pb&j to revert).

I have a 2012 X-30 so I will chime in. If you had the plate all the way down, then it flattens out the wake but if you had all the stock ballast full and the plate all the way up and couldn't do a grab, than Im going to go out on a limb and say you need a lesson. Below is a pic of the stock X-30 wake at 21mph. Don't blame the wake. Then another from a gopro with an extar 1500lbs.

Also compared to a G23, we all know the G has a much bigger stock wake. The G23 is about 1000lbs heavier than the X-30 so when riding the X-30 even with full stock ballast, it weighs less than the G empty. So when the G has full stock ballast it's weighing in at about 3000lbs heavier. Thats a pretty big difference. For your needs a 30 would actually serve you well. I like to run mine with about 2500lbs of weight, that is when the wake starts to get nice and big. It's also got a very clean wake at all speeds so you don't have to ride at 25.

Wake looks good to me!! No one is going to argue the G has a bigger wake. But I also don't think anyone else is going to say the X-30 is small. Super clean too!!

You guys are probably right. My technique that day was probably off. It was the first time I had ever rode a Mastercraft boat and I know that the pop technique on them are slightly different compared to a Nautiques steeper wake. I am riding behind the G tomorrow at ODub so we will see how that goes.

Dude... A G23 wake isn't really a steep wake like an old 210 or a 230 slammed out... A G wake is effin huge in every way, it doesn't KICK you like those other wakes, it will launch you if you have the cahones to edge all the way up the wake and wait for the pop...

That's the funniest thing I've seen on here in awhile.

ahahaha

Yah I just saw a video of Rusty behind the X-30 getting way more air then I did so I must have been popping off that wake totally wrong.

So how was that g23 demo?

It was amazing. JD Webb came out to show us how the boat works and coach us a bit. The wake on that is way bigger then I ever thought, and I was popping off and getting 7-9 foot melon grabs easily. We had 10 people in the boat and there was a 1000lbs of lead in it, so the wake wasn't exactly a stock no ballast weight, but we didn't have any water ballast in it. Before we rode we got the plant tour and that was a amazing sight to see, what they go through to make one of those boats. All I saw on the manufacture floor was G23, G25, and 200 CB and OBs. Not a single 230 and only one 210. After riding the G23 and the X-30 the G is better in so many aspects.

Shaft problem:
We asked Nautique about the shafts after seeing the post a while back and from my other sources as you all may know. We asked them about it today and they explained that the ONE transmission that blew was a prototype transmission and was low on oil. The shaft breaking was caused by a unknown problem and it was shipped to nautique but was lost in shipping so they couldn't discover the problem. So there has been one prototype transmission problem and one shaft problem accounted for.

Did you get any pictures or video of you ripping that G wake?

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal riding with JD Webb on a G23! Post up some pics of the 9 foot Melons.... can't wait to see em.

Did this not make anyone else laugh?

Rusty was getting way more air than you because he's Rusty.

I'm shocked.. no, wait - I posted this information almost a month ago and nobody bothered to respond... including the guy who had 'insider information' (which was you).

Glad you liked the G.

I lol'd... on any given day... on any wake... a pro will go much larger than most of us. YES... its true!!

From this:
To this:
So much for your insider info. What a joke.

The first post is what "I" thought would need to be fixed but I was wrong. My insider wasn't wrong he was spot on, he said a shaft broke and one did break.

Yah riding with JD was awesome but sadly I dont think anyone on the boat was taking photos or videos. I do have a few photos from the Nautique manufacturing plant that I can upload though.

One reason I may have been having trouble is the lake was fairly shallow, which raises the back of the boat out of the water a bit so the wake may had not been as big as it would have in a deeper lake or body of water.

So a boat has more buoyancy in shallow water?:confused:

The physics is strong with this one.:p

Thanks for admitting you were wrong...

A little lesson James - I'm not trying to bust your balls... When I argued your point that 'shafts were breaking' I never said one didn't, but you were citing wild unknown sources which were actually your own opinion - not fact. One shaft broke, so it isn't a widespread problem. You said design problems, hull redesign, cooler pushed forward, too much power, too much weight, transmission redesign, thicker prop shaft... I let it slide, I was 14 once...

The shallow lake doesn't push the rear of the hull up, the shallow lake has less water to displace, therefore when the hull pushes down and there is not as much water to push down (displace) which then in turn (equal opposite reaction) comes up to form the wake, the wake is smaller/won't build as well as in deeper water. This has been argued widely for years where the breakover point is where depth doesn't matter... something like 12-15 ft...

I find it hard to believe that you couldn't do a grab on a wake that is bigger than anything I ever ride and all of a sudden you were doing 7' airs on the G wake, 7-9 ft is huge... which is why I asked for pix...

7-9 Feet is huge. Pretty much pro huge. Just curious if your bag of tricks includes anything more than just grabs. Because If i remember correctly you were concerned about having a Nautique because you will be competing at the Gravel tour? So you couldn't get enough air to do a grab behind the MC but can go 9 feet huge behind the G. So obviously the G is all you dreamed and more and is the right boat for you. So go ahead and buy it up already and we will see you on the pro tour 2014!!

Sorry Delta, sadly no one was taking pictures or video. A factory tour, then a ride in a brand new boat with a Company rider and nobody had a camera, smart phone, etc? ODD Just sayin'

"Yah riding with JD was awesome but sadly I dont think anyone on the boat was taking photos or videos."

You have been carrying on this whole thread about it being a more common problem than one, at least admit you and they (if they exist) were wrong.

Kids these days...

Wrong, it seems CC was very up front with the ONE time it happened...

I forget, is ONE the same as some?

Probably my favorite post of yours, assuming 8k ballast setups and somehow correlating that weight effects torque on the drive-train.

Well, my favorite post besides commenting an X30 with stock ballast doesn't have enough of a wake to do grabs... :rolleyes:

i dont belive anything on this thread

James :D

Yah this backfired a bit I was totally wrong in the beginning. The lake we had the X-30 in was only 5 feet deep so there lies the big problem with the wake size. The airs I was getting probably weren't 9 feet but at least 7, my friend who was in the boat was talking to him and he asked how high I was getting and he said probably 8 feet :). Yah I am not a very advanced rider when it comes to boat TS Jumps, TS 180's, and HS Grabs pretty much make up my trick list on boat. I don't regularly ride boat though, and the sea ray isn't exactly suitable to ride behind. My cable trick list is far better then my boat with basic inverts, TS and HS grab 180's and many rail tricks. So yah I was wrong. All the contact said is that a shaft broke and I just started to make crap up about how I thought it would be fixed, cause I thought it was due to over torquing. The reason the shaft broke is unknown since it was lost in shipping, so how ever it broke it might have been a alignment issue, ran into something, i have no clue but it broke and Nautique replaced it instantly so good for them. I hope that clears everything up.

James...hit me up at mccormicks when ur out there next time.

So my question is this, did you and the family commit to buying a boat? Because it sure sounds like the boat did everything you wanted and more. Also that the factory tour went well. You demo when you are ready to buy. Commited to purchase and narrowing them down. Pretty bad form if you were just using them for a free pull. Most dealers would expect to be delivering a boat if the demo goes as planned, which it sure sounds like it did. I ask because it would seem rather rude to just be jacking these dealers around, which we know at least Tige, MC, and Nautique so far.

No need to wait now since there is obviously not an issue with the shafts.

Yah no way are we just getting free pulls. It has come down to Nautique or Mastercraft for a boat to get. We are getting a wake boat in the coming months but which one is unknown. We might have plans to ride a 2013 X-Star sometime soon and to actually go out and demo a boat fully, the demo we did was at OWC so me or my dad couldn't drive the boat or try out the wakesurf wake. Sometime in December we are riding at JD's house behind his boat I think.

Real wake snobby-ish here...

But I totally understand needing the most dialed and elite wake... I know my tindy's and roast beef grabs deserve it

I thought people became particular about things after years and years of experience with them.... I am STILL trying to hone in my craft beer drinking skills. Just need more practice I guess.. derp

Thought the same thing. For the skill level young james is at all this is unneeded. There isn't a V drive out there that isn't suitable and pretty much over kill. My kids started riding last summer and really progressed, grabs, 180's and that stuff. I think they really progressed well for 10 and 11. Do I need to be looking for a G23 or a X? Maybe I sold them short with the new RZR???

If your buying for want and status you don't really need to demo. They all have elite wakes or they wouldn't be there. So you don't really need to demo since your clearly buying for want and status. IMO

Dude, JD Webb told him he was boosting 8ft airs... Anything for a sale ;)