Hello folks, <BR> <BR>New here, first post-great place! <BR>Well I need some first time owner advice. "I have been doing the researching and reading and I'm confused/undecided and blue in the face." <BR> <BR>I will try and make this short... I need a boat for wakesurfing, wakeboarding and an occasional ski. <BR> <BR>Me: Most important-JK will WS more than WB <BR>Wife: Ski then WS <BR>Kids: Primarily WS and WB <BR>Friends: Whatever they want <BR> <BR>**Side note: I have been surfing ocean waves for 30+ years and ankle slappers just bore me so I need some meat! From what I have read it seems like a lot of folks are placing sacs and other items here and there and this just seems like a lot work "which I can handle" however, I would like to focus on my family as well. <BR> <BR>Let me make clear I always wanted a Malibu and have a great place to buy one and have it serviced however, is this the boat for me in the end? After a lot of reading the Centurion, MB, Tige, Supra and any others I have missed seem to be the "brand" most of you have. I'm not looking to trade up in a few years since I have three kids that will be entering some overpriced colleges around the corner so, I want to make the best of my first purchase. <BR> <BR>Oh yes, pretty sure most of the brand name boats are no more than two hours away from me so buying/servicing and the convenience factor are doable. <BR> <BR>I would really appreciate straight up advice and direction. <BR> <BR>Thank you

Look at and ride Centurion Falcon or if you want more upgrades the Cyclone same boat. Great boat does not take a lot of weight for boarding or surfing. The boat is 102" wide so gives lots of room for everyone. My .02 worth

and if you are broke like me then a moomba 23xlv does the trick for me<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

Avalanche, Enzo, Tige 22v or 24v, and Sangers all are great at wakeboarding and wakesurfing. From my experience most boats can throw a decent surf wake with enfo weight and time spent dialing it in. The skiing thing might be difficult. Most of these boats have a pretty deep hulls. A hydraulic wakeplate might help flatten the wake, but prob not enough for good skiing.

Have you considered a Moomba LSV? 21' Moomba with interchangeable sacks so you can make the wake meaty for wakeboarding... or soft for skiing... or heavy and lopsided for surfing... at the flip of a few switches. For what you described, it would fit the bill for not a lot of bills. And they are a sweet boat... especially the 09's with the new Jabsco ballast setup.

Welcome to WakeWorld! <BR>The trick is how important the different sports are. If you're going to ski you want a flat bottom and small light boat. If you're surfing you want a heavy boat with a deeper V to the transom. Sit in the boat with everyone at a minimum, but if there is any way you can do it - demo the boats. They drive and ride differently. You'll also find everyone is really fond of their own boat, naturally, so we all have some bias. <BR>I have a Sanger D215 and can do anything with it easily. The V215 is the best handling v-drive boat out there and can do it all too. I think the Mastercraft X-14 or 14V would be a good boat as a crossover but I haven't ridden in one yet. <BR>The Sanger 237 is a great boat and the Centurion Enzo or Avalanche are good surf boats. Any of those are really big to try to ski behind without it being a major workout. <BR>Malibu make a great boat and they are excellent wakeboard boats. I think the 247 is an awesome surf boat, but it's huge. I've never heard anyone complain about the surf wake on a VLX. If you decide on a Malibu I don't think you'll have made a mistake. For me the 21xti was my second choice but I thought the Sanger I bought was the better boat for my purposes. It was cheaper too which was a bonus but when you demo the boats you'll eliminate some quickly. <BR>I think it would be worth considering the Epic because of it's enormous stock weight capacity. Adding a couple thousand pounds of water takes up space on any boat, and you need weight to get past ankle slapping wakes. Just remember the weight kills the skiing.

What's your budget?

Nicely said art!

Thanks for the replies folks. Straight-up, I need to look at Centurions, Epic, Sanger, Moomba's, Tige and a few others in more detail. Most of my time has been spent on Malibu and it's simply not a fair comparison on my part. "Must do more homework." Demo time is a must as recommended.

Yes-thank you Art for the detailed info and the welcome!

You need to be comfortable in anything you purchase. Try to test drive all that interest you. I have a Tige 24V that has been equipped with custom ballast on both sides. It's one of the best surf wakes that I have EVER seen. Quality skiing is pretty much no longer there (go in friends boat for that), and WB wake can obviously be adjusted by adding ballast. Mine is used 95% for surfing only, and has had the likes of Chase Hazen, Josh Sleigh, Jerry Price, and many others ride behind it.

TQ, <BR> <BR>I have waited a very-very long time to do this and set it about 75-80k tops. Anymore and the kids will be eating at our house every day and I want them OUT of my house after high school!!!

Greg, <BR> <BR>How can I find out more about the custom ballast?

Any pictures of that wave Greg?

I ride behind a 22v all the time and it's a huge wave! It's just a little short. I have never seen a taller wave on a boat. I would upload pictures, but I can't figure out how.

Click on upload attachment, it's at the bottom beside Preview/Post Message. <BR> <BR>I'm assuming that does it, but I haven't posted a picture here before.

My Ballast consists of a custom Enzo sac on each side. Thats 1,450 pounds on each side, plus people etc. I have two 1,000 G.P.H. pumps for filling on each side. They take about 10 minutes to fill. I can't up load any pics from work, so I will do so tonight when I get home.

Not Sure : <BR> <BR>- I would demo everything you can that is local to you - if you are going to be surfing have the dealership load the boat - I have demo'd boats with 6K + lbs in them for wake surf guys so they can see what the boat will do weighted for surfing. You have to demo a boat the same way you are going to use it once you get it home! <BR> <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/661846.jpg" alt="Upload">

^^^^ "6k plus pounds" ^^^ Tell me what boat will handle that type of ballast, and where they could store it. Thats over 850 gallons of water. I.M.O. I don't thing so.

I had a Mastercraft 190 Prostar. We used it strictly for avid slalom skiing. I wanted to get into surfing, plus still be able to slalom ski. I looked at a number of boats. I really liked the Nautique 211 as it is certified to run a slalom course, but I liked the feel and room of the Malibu VLX much better. I ended buying a VLX. The surf wave is great for our crew. However, surf competitions probably would not want it for an event. But until we go exclusive surfing, the VLX is a great boat. The ski wake certainly has a bump, but I am also just using it for recreational slalom skiing these days and don't really care about the bump anymore, unlike when I skied behind our MC.

Greg - it is simple really, I do in an 07' Supreme V232 all of the time and we just loaded the new V226 wake series even heavier and the boat should take a lot more! You lose a lot of seating but the wave is perrrfect - <BR> <BR>stock under deck - 2K <BR> <BR>lead <BR> <BR>4 - 750 lb locker bags

^^^^ WOW^^^ Sorry to sound so "sarcastic". Thats just so much weight. I've never heard of that much weight in a boat. How the heck do you steer it?

Andrew, I would really also like to see pictures of the 24v wave. How much extra room is there after the enzo sac is full. Someone posted on a thread that a custom sac would hold alot more. I have my wakesurf choice narrowed down to 22v, 24v, Avy or Enzo.

Actually Greg the new V226 handles the weight with very little effort and my V232 does great as well.

After the Enzo sacs are filled, There is NO room for storage on either side. Thats the downfall of having totally enclosed ballast systems. I wanted to retain all my seating / floor space rather than be concerned about storage space. <BR>The space you accually loose is not only in the rear lockers, but in under the side seating as well.

TQ; I know you ride at Clear Lake, but if your ever down in the South Delta area, hit me up. I would love to ride with you some time.

So the sacs on the tige 24v fill all the way to the top and hit all the sides ? The sac dimensions look alot smaller than the compartment.

It's not like a perfect block in the compartment, but when the sacks are full, you can probably fit a vest or two in there. No ice chests, or large items.

I'll take a couple pics tomorrow morning, and post them.

Is there room on top or the sides? The older 22-24v have such large compartments. Could you measure the area too? Thanks, I am ordering my buddys 22v custom sacs for next summer, and we want as much weight as possible. But his boat is storage, so I can't check.

Greg - will do - thanks for the invite, believe it or not I have never been on the Delta (my house is about a block from the ramp so I usually don't get to far from home)<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

I have never seen deals like this before and they may even get better!!! My check book was falling out of my pocket-holy sh#t! Just got back from looking at Sanger V237 and Calabria loaded team addition. <BR> <BR>Can you folks give me your .02c's on these boats please. <BR> <BR>Thanks

Sanger over the Calabria IMO - where are from? There are some amazing deals in CA right now.

Yep Cen Cal. Even though I don't own a boat as mentioned in the first post, I have been watching for along time and this is great for the buyers. Is the Calabria not that great?

Calabria's are a good boat I just think that the 237 is much better for surfing - check out the new V226 from Supreme it is awesome for money and I have had the opportunity to ride behind it - awesome!!!!!!!!!! <BR> <BR>Here is a pic with stock ballast only <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/661943.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/661944.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/661945.jpg" alt="Upload">

Sweet looking wave, do you have pictures of the goofy or darkside wave?

No I don't, but the goofy wave is awesome too - the boat has more freeboard then any boat I have seen and you can get so much lean if you have enough weight it's crazy really - it takes 2K on one side to get the boat to shift- its on from there!

TQ, <BR> <BR>Thank you for sharing and that wake looks very nice! I need to check out this boat in more detail.

The wake looks really nice. How much ballast is stock ballast?

The freeboard does look deep, but 6k in ballast? That seems crazy. We run alot sometimes in the 3k+ range, and it's super hard on most motors. Are you running a crazy prop? Supercharged motors? 6k ballast plus a 3-4k boat and then 1k or so of people beer and gas, and you are at like 10-11k freaking pounds. I believe it, but I love to see how you accomplish that much weight. I've seen pictures of boats with fat sacs everywhere. Is this how your doing it?

The stock ballast system on the 226 is about 1500 lbs - and yes Duffy there are sacks everywhere - I would guess we are pushing 10K lbs and the new Mercruiser Sorpion DTS motor handles it fine with a high altitude prop (I am at 1K feet). The new motor in the 226 has launch control and GPS speed control it is sooooo simple to set it - hammer down - that's it.

6k of ballast - 1500 lbs. stock - please post pictures of 4500 lbs. of ballast in the boat, I find it hard to believe.

Here you go (no pics) I really can't figure out what is hard to believe ~ <BR> <BR>1 400 rear locker <BR> <BR>2 750 port seat/rear seat <BR> <BR>1 enzo floor <BR> <BR>1 400 port seat/observers seat <BR> <BR>1 400 walk thru <BR> <BR>and a couple of bricks if there aren't any people in the boat to dial the wake in <BR> <BR>This is pretty close - we get the sacs as full as we can - maybe they should have weigh stations on the water so that we can be exact<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>

09 Moomba Outback V

I would hate to have to put 6,000 lbs. of weight in a boat to get a good surf wave, this is our Centurion Enzo SV240 with about 1,500 lbs. of ballast and 8 people. <BR> <BR> <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662169.jpg" alt="Upload">

that stock wave on the supreme looks sweet! <BR>mabe the sweetest stock ive seen <BR>good for supreme,i wonder what it retails for. <BR>hilarious the people who dont have a supreme tellin this guy how he is or isnt sacking out his boat<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0> <BR>my first wake boat was a 98 super air nautiqe came stock with 1800lbs factory ballast <BR>we added 3500lbs of fatsacs plus crew 1000lbs everyday <BR>fer da record,ive never heard one bad thing about calebria boats <BR>ive used the sanger 237 for the goofy side of a contest,it was also a great boat <BR> <BR>(Message edited by h20k9 on January 23, 2009)

Well you don't have to have that much weight - that is just how I prefer it - on a good day in deep water we can ride 25' behind the boat. The photos above are without adding any weight at all - and probably 80% of the time I use the stock ballast only + crew. <BR> <BR>Oh yeah <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0> I would hate to have to spend the money for an Enzo 24' when this boat has more interior space, (sq. footage - it is a fact - believe it) handles 10 times better, handles rough water better, and loaded comes in in at about 60K.

Is that guy only 4'8"<IMG SRC="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> That wave looks crazy big.

Here are some pics that I took this morning. Sorry for the quality, but it was cold and raining. The first four pics are with the Enzo sac empty.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662195.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662196.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662197.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662198.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>Here is what happens to you spacious lockers as the sacs fill.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662199.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662200.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>End result.<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662201.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662202.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662203.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/662204.jpg" alt="Upload"> <BR>Remember that this is on a 24' Tige. Thats alot of boat to slam, and this is with ballast only. Put another 6 people in it with gear, and its TSUNAMI time!!

He's about 6' tall

I think he is looking for a boat to ski behind to. Iv got a 240 Enzo sorry it is not a good ski boat. Wakeboarding great surfing great skiing. I dont think so<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

Greg, <BR>Thanks for the pictures, and sweet looking Tige. I love the tiges layout and design. It does look like there is some room though in the compartments. Enzo sac dimensions are <BR>Main= 30 x 25 x 26 arm= 72 x 25 x 12. <BR> <BR>Your dimensions Main 30 x 37 X 28 and I'm assuming the arm is similar 72 x 25 x 12. <BR> <BR>This is what I get. The custom main would be #1105 plus the arm would be 778. So a total of 1883. I would say that you would loose some so say 100 or so pounds due to restrictions. So your left with I would say estimate between 1700-1800 pounds! And the enzo sac is only 1450. It might not make much of a difference, but it could be amazing! I found a sweet 05 24v! Send some pictures of the wave!

TQ, don't take it in the wrong way, when I read your post I was just in disbelief like greg. makes sense after you explained it, I was invisioning a floor and seat full of sacs, like the pic of a boat that floated around last year. <BR> <BR>As for a, my boat your boat pissing contest, that is not what I was looking for but, if you are comparing the two for handling in rough water and smooth water you have no doudt not driven a Enzo yourself. Interior space and sq. footage, I didn't base the purchase of the boat on it like I would have a house but, the Enzo 24 is rated at 16 crew, the Enzo 23 at 14 and the 226 at 13. <BR> <BR>Duffy, that is my son, he is around 5’10” on a 54” Phase5 Prop in the pic.

Sweet looking wave! Gotta love the enzo!

Actually I have had the opportunity do drive them back to back - yes the square footage on the 226 is more than the enzo 24 - that is fact. We get 4' swells here and the 226 kills the enzo in chop - more dead rize and twice as nimble. With that being said neither Centurion nor Supreme are NMMA members which means they can rate any boat for any amount of people that they choose.

We ride in several rough lakes and have never had an issue with the ride or control it is one of the reasons we went with the Enzo. <BR> <BR>Please post the facts about interior space sq. footage of both boats, since neither site offers them I am sure that I am not the only one that would like to see them.

I would like to ride with any of you guys any time....just sayin'. <BR> <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>

The enzo is a 24 foot boat! Your 226 is smaller, but the picklefork will add alot of square feet. I bet thats where they get the difference and how they claim to be more. I'm not saying anything about your boat. Its wave looks sweet for sure! I really like the look too.

dtw, if your ever in Texas look us up, we always make room for out of towners, although it may be a little cramped...<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0>

I am waiting on the exact specs on them for you guys - the rear seat is moved way back, the bow is huge and the narrow gunnels make the interior really wide. Wakedoc should know his son has been in this boat as much as anybody.

Is the V226 on their web page yet-maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot???

TQ, never said I or anyone I know had driven a 226 including my son, I assumed you had not driven a Enzo since you said they do not handle rough water well, which is far from the truth but, I now know that the 226 handles much better in 4 foot chop with 6,000 lbs. of ballast and has more more room than any other boat. <BR> <BR>Don't forget to post the exact specs. when you get them.

I thought you were stating that the photo I posted was of your son - I misunderstood. <BR> <BR>Anyway - I never stated that the Enzo doesn't handle big water well - it does, the 226 just does is better, I have drove them back to back.

Not Sure - check out <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.skisupreme.com/models/226.html" target="_blank">http://www.skisupreme.com/models/226.html</a> <BR> <BR>the site isn't done - but the boat is up

Thanks TQ . I was looking there earlier but not far enough into it.

Starting to narrow it down because I have to. Thanks to all who are helping me out. Please comment on the below. <BR> <BR>**Note: As suggested the skiing rider will have to ride in another boat! Looking for WS #1 and WB #2. <BR> <BR>Malibu 23LSV <BR>Tige RZ4 <BR>Sanger V237 <BR>Supreme V226 <BR>Calabria Team V <BR> <BR>Thanks

1. Demo them all <BR> <BR>2. Dealer Support, etc <BR> <BR>3. Cost/value relationship <BR> <BR>4. Enjoy your season

Throw in Avalanche and test ride! check out this wave! <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkZif5I5n4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkZif5I5n4</a>

If WS is your number 1, you shouldn't be leaving a Centurion boat out of the equation.

Do I need a disclaimer here? I’m not a boat rep nor am I a promo driver, just an enthusiastic Centurion. <BR> <BR>Ya, I think you’re kind of missing a few of major wakesurf machines. There are the 230 and 240 as well as the Avalanche and the not much talked about Typhoon, a stretch Avy. <BR> <BR>I don’t have personal experiences with most of those boats. I’ll only speak about Centurions and a little about the Supreme. Be sure to really compare the surf wake. See how far back you can ride in the pocket. How much ballast do you need for a good surf wake? If you want to push wakesurf boundaries you’ll want a long pocket and a wake with a nice lip. I see a lot of people wakesurfing right off the back of the transom. We’re easily 20 feet back behind my Enzo. <BR> <BR>Wake Doc has made the ballast point a couple of times. It doesn’t take much ballast on the Enzo to make a stellar wake. I can tell you that wrestling ballast is a major PTA. I ran as much as 3,000 pounds in a 21.6 foot boat. Setting up ballast was a chore in the old boat and that much ballast was irresponsible. <BR> <BR>With Centurion there’s the Switch blade option. I only have about 90 seconds behind a SB equipped boat. I’m not sold on the SB but I’m sure impressed with what James has done. It would be cool to spend some serious time on a SB equipped boat. <BR> <BR>About Enzo storage, the Enzo 220 has something like 95 cu ft of storage, that’s more than the Enzo 230! The Enzo 240 has 105 cu ft of storage. I can’t find the storage numbers for the 230, I just recall they are less than the 220. The hull of the 220 is rather flat, not like the typical Centurion V. The flat hull means there’s more storage room in the back lockers. I think that’s where the extra storage comes from. <BR> <BR>One thing I like about what I think I see on the Supreme is at the back of the boat. The gunnels are high and there are no vents for water to sneak in to the boat. Last year I put too much ballast in the back locker of my Enzo, about 1,500 in the back locker alone. The vents went below the water line and the boat took on a lot of water. Water filled up the engine bay near the serpentine belt. The belt sprayed water all over the engine compartment. Water started pouring out of the back of the v-drive hatch and my Perfect Pass servo got wet. Water killed the servo. I was without PP for several weeks. So you have to watch the Enzo back vents. <BR> <BR>The problem I see with the Supreme is that it doesn’t have vents in the back of the boat. What, ya that was the positive, right? Well that means that the Supreme engine bay may not get the ventilation that it should. Hard to tell from these pictures.

Which handles better, a boat with 4,500 of ballast or one with 1,500?

My bad about leaving Centurion off the list as I typed this in a Centurions dealership parking lot! I have demos set up for late next week on two boats.

This is the fun part. Well, I took a demo on so many boats my wife got really sick of it. But I had fun. <BR>Take notes. Chop, seats, handling, noise, wind in the boat, wake, etc.

Art-my turn now! Will keep those notes in mind. <BR> <BR>Thanks

Does anyone know more about the Typhoon? Is it really just a stretched avalanche? Does it have the same transom and deadrise? Sounds interesting!

Should be the same transom. I think the hull is stepped. Since it’s longer I’d assume a little less dead rise, just a guess. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.wakeboardingmag.com/article/Reviews/Centurion-Typhoon-C4" target="_blank">http://www.wakeboardingmag.com/article/Reviews/Centurion-Typhoon-C4</a>

4 foot swells in a wake boat.... Ok!

Typhoon is a longer avalanche. streched right in the middle great boat. I dont know why you do not here more about it.

No one on this forum that I can recall has ever reported on one or owns one. I've never seen a Typhoon wake, but my expectations are that is would be as good as or better than the Avy.

Does anyone have a picture of a transom from a Typhoon? I read that its the deepest continous v on the market or at least it was.